So, anyone know why games release with only two factions?

jayarte · February 2011

We see so many posts, in various threads, which mention this topic and cite DAOC as an example of pvp which works well due to the three factions (which I agree with). What I'm wondering is, given the amount of posts here and on other forums calling for three faction pvp, and given the huge disappointment when Warhammer in particular released with only two factions, why do games still release this way?

Is it so much harder to implement code wise or lorewise or server load-wise or something? (I haven't a clue, just taking a stab in the dark here). Anyone have any ideas?

TheLizardbones · February 2011

People bring up DAoC's PvP, but three factions can't be the only reason it was considered a decent game. I mean, if all you needed was one feature in a game to make it good, then you could put just that one feature in any game and it would be a good game. Pick any one feature from the following list, and someone will argue that just adding that feature to a game that lacks it will make that game better.
* Harsh Death Penalties
* FFA PvP
* 3 Factions instead of 2 Factions
* Player Housing
* Guild Housing
* {Insert your own mechanic here}

Mmorpg are made up of a lot of different mechanics. Getting a game out the door is expensive. So expensive that frequently games are released early. If adding another faction is going to increase the cost of a game that's already pushing it to get out the door, it's too expensive to implement.

UknownAspect · February 2011

Personally, I think most games these days are released with a 2 faction system just because it is easier to deal with, in all aspects.

And this allows developers to focus on more important features in a game, such as gameplay, and more importantly, class development. Because the same people who are making classes unique and great, are the same people that are balancing them against each other. Add in the 3 faction system, then you have to create new ways to balance.

And that's not only done through class balance. instead of 5v5, you have to think 5v5v5. As cool as 3 faction warfare sounds, implementing it into a game complicates everything. Especially the community. If a game were to have 3 factions, developers would have to focus almost solely on balance, and almost leave out pve entirely. Even FFA would be easier to balance.

But I am right there with you. I really think a 3 faction game would be awesome, but I'm also resigned to believe that it's not going to happen in anything on the horizon.

wilson1225 · February 2011

I think the main reason is that it is more expensive in terms of content to have more than 2 factions. Originally Warhammer was going to have a large city for each race, but it took so long to create the chaos and human cities that they were forced to scrap plans for the others before release.

Content isn't getting any cheaper to develop. DAOC was made by roughly 30-40 people, Warhammer had somewhere around 200 developers and still had to cut the 4 extra cities they had initially planned. Advances in graphics tech usually bring more time consuming steps to the asset creation process. More factions means more starting zones, and other chunks of early content for each side, enough to carry them to the point in the game where you expect them to interact in shared content.

With all games being made on a tight budget these days something has to give. Perhaps a new game could again have 3 factions, but something else in the game would suffer for it. Perhaps there would only be a skeleton of an end game. Maybe they rushed and got enough content in for 3 factions and an end game, but in their haste didn't notice it was all mediocre until it was too late.

Would you play a newly released game and forgive older graphics and less interesting content because it has 3 sides? I think most people wouldn't.

wilson1225 · February 2011

The class balance is a good point too.

I think it's a shame that games are mainly sticking to 2 factions these days. One of my favorite games when I was in high school was Rolemaster: Magestorm which was developed by Mythic way before DAOC or WAR. It was basically a mutliplayer FPS with a leveling system where you could level up 1 of 4 types of mages. When you played you'd join one of three sides (Order, Chaos, or Balance IIRC) and would play a sort of conquest game where you had to protect your shrine while destroying the other teams.

I wonder if the new planetside game will still have 3 sides and if it will suffer for it. I remember playing the original and, at least near launch, all the bases you fought over were pretty much the same base copy pasted over the entire world.

Thorqemada · February 2011

Daoc showed that rvr + pve + pvevr is possible and that there is no everlasting superiority in a 3 faction system like in a ffa or 2 faction mmo.

There is no need to have good and bad and neutral sides, only 3 different ones.

EvE is hardly to translate into a fantasy world bcs the map need 100 times bigger than the biggest fantasy world recently is, but partially its also possbible.

Balancing is way overrated and should be laid into the hands of the players with not a class but a skill based system where each player is responsible for and may decide to go for the fotm skill/template or for individual skill builds.

Working basictemplates be given to new players but anytime you can reset your skills and do your own thing...

The main excuse is lost for the pvpers that the developers do not balance the game right...i expect a big crying therfore that this is a very bad system^^

Ihmotepp · February 2011

No idea. I do know that two factions is boring.

You're either the winner, or the loser.

And people usually jump ship from the loser, and roll a character on the winning side.

It's a poor design.

Edit:

Allowing players to make factions ina ground based game doesn't seem to work well. Shadow Bane tried it, but it didn't work so well IMO.

Kyleran · February 2011

Some great thoughts about why games don't have 3 factions already rolling in this other thread.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/306621/Three-faction-based-MMO-WTF.html

kujii · February 2011

That would press the imaginative capability of mmo makers well beyond their feeble limits. Is this what these gaming schools are kicking out or are they hiring 2 year olds to come up with this cornicopia of garbage? It''s the same with the movie industy all they can come up with is re-makes of re-makes. All I can say is they are masters of the cut and paste button. Well anyway, we can always look forward to 50000 ipad copies from the innovative tech industy......

Joshua69 · February 2011

My room mate and I were just discussing this last night....

Vhaln · February 2011

I think that to do three factions well, devs feel they'd have to do a lot more work, and with MMOs being so difficult to release in a timely manner. It must just seem like an obvious thing to throw on the chopping block almost immediately. Either that, or they really do cluelessly ignore the community to such an extent that they don't see how much better so many feel three (or even more) factions can be over just two.

I've been wondering about this ever since even Mythic went with only two factions for WAR, way back before it turned out to be too awful of a game to matter.

Cactus-Man · February 2011

Well,

The more factions you have the more you divide the player based per faction. You also have to create more content, making sure none of the factions get slighted. The more factions you have the harder it is make them unique, where 2 factions can be opposites of each other, 3 or more factions tend to become less distinct. Humans concepts of rivalry tends to work one on one rather than multiple factions. People think in us verses them rather than us verses them and those guys over there too. 3 factions really don't provide balance, populations can still be distorted as can the skill and level of the players per faction. As great as people believe DAoC to be there are more examples of games with more than 2 factions having little balance between sides.

Talin · February 2011

As long as you maintain the same character classes across fashions, themed slightly by the races/organization, having a third faction (to me) is merely a question of the ability to create more backstory/landmass/quests/art/etc related to that additional faction. I'm not trivializing that at all, but it seems that way to me.

As much as this makes open world PVP 1000% better, I would also love to see a 3rd faction in the modern "arena" style PVP content. If one faction's group was too strong, the other two could spend a little time playing spoiler and taking them down a notch.

Thorqemada · February 2011

Originally posted by Cactus-Man

Well,

The more factions you have the more you divide the player based per faction. You also have to create more content, making sure none of the factions get slighted. The more factions you have the harder it is make them unique, where 2 factions can be opposites of each other, 3 or more factions tend to become less distinct. Humans concepts of rivalry tends to work one on one rather than multiple factions. People think in us verses them rather than us verses them and those guys over there too. 3 factions really don't provide balance, populations can still be distorted as can the skill and level of the players per faction. As great as people believe DAoC to be there are more examples of games with more than 2 factions having little balance between sides.

Another human behavior is that the enemy of my enemy is my natural friend^^

Dont give either side an advantage to couple with the recently winning side but give the both weaker sides an advantage to ally against the winner and it will work out anytime.

Also there is no problem with the playerbase, the pve part of the world can run on a different server than the rvr part so the opposite is the fact you have a much larger playerbase that can be part of the rvr as players of 3 servers be availabe instead of only one server.

kitarad · February 2011

Mythic was always spending their time nerfing ask anyone who played DAoC because they were continuously trying to blalance the game.

bobbymo · February 2011

This is why most games have only two factions.

Thorqemada · February 2011

Originally posted by kitarad
Mythic was always spending their time nerfing ask anyone who played DAoC because they were continuously trying to blalance the game.

Where is the difference to any other pvp game?

Shoju · February 2011

Because it is most probably easier to only have to deal with two groups of people bitching and crying about everything than three.

kitarad · February 2011

Also because they had different classes for all the sides which made thigns worse. I think this nightmare may be why they did not do it in Warhammer.

Solestran · February 2011

Laziness - just like any corporation out there, they strive to get the most money for the least amount of effort and the lowest possible quality.

TheLizardbones · February 2011

Originally posted by Talin
As long as you maintain the same character classes across fashions, themed slightly by the races/organization, having a third faction (to me) is merely a question of the ability to create more backstory/landmass/quests/art/etc related to that additional faction. I'm not trivializing that at all, but it seems that way to me.
As much as this makes open world PVP 1000% better, I would also love to see a 3rd faction in the modern "arena" style PVP content. If one faction's group was too strong, the other two could spend a little time playing spoiler and taking them down a notch.

You can't just mix fashions. You don't wear dark cloths in the Spring unless you're a goth, and how many goths are there really? Lighter colors are OK in the winter, but mostly you have to stick with White or darker colors. Don't even get me started on mixing Elvish and Dwarven armor styles. It's ridiculous.

In seriousness, I'd like to see a well developed 3 faction game. But the well developed part is more important (to me) than the 3 faction part.

kitarad · February 2011

Playerbase can never be happy with anything they whine about everything. Look at WoW just the shaman pally thing caused so much problems and the racials the undead and how everyone kept complaining. This in a game which basically had almost all the same classes. Can you imagine the nightmare all the different classes and faction gave Mythic. It is no wonder they never wanted to go back there again. Mark and Sanya would quarrel with people on the Vault boards. Yup I can see how the thought processes went on this one. Not that I really blame Mark some crazy Vault posters even cursed his son who was sick during Xmas over some nerfs so yes in my opinion their experience with DAoC was exactly why they never did the same for Warhammer.

severius · February 2011

Basically, it boils down to a speed of development, complexity, and money. There is a standard price for games. If they release with 3 or more factions then that is a lot of development time and money that they feel they aren't being paid for. Not when morons will gladly pony up near full price for a year - 2 year old game with the promise of not a whole new faction, but maybe one class and a couple levels.

Vryheid · February 2011

This parallels the evolution between Warcraft 2 mentality and Starcraft mentality. Starcraft, which featured three races, was vastly more complex than Warcraft 2. Balancing the Protoss, Zerg, and Terran, which all featured fundamentally different play styles and unit compositions, required years of balance testing, high level gameplay and innumerable patches. Warcraft 2 was far easier to achieve balance with, as the two sides featured nearly identical units and could basically use exactly the same strategy in every single matchup. Blizzard was forced to decide between sticking with what they knew was safe and what was new and innovative, and it took them three games (Warcraft, Warcraft II, Beyond the Dark Portal) before they finally switched to the latter.

MMOs are still stuck in that Warcraft II mindset. They don't want to push buttons. They don't want to risk Faction A and Faction B teaming up and wiping out Faction C. And they certainly don't want to put effort into tweaking their battle system after the game's release, when they could be spending all of that effort on content expansions.

jayarte · February 2011

Originally posted by lizardbones
People bring up DAoC's PvP, but three factions can't be the only reason it was considered a decent game. I mean, if all you needed was one feature in a game to make it good, then you could put just that one feature in any game and it would be a good game. Pick any one feature from the following list, and someone will argue that just adding that feature to a game that lacks it will make that game better.

* Harsh Death Penalties

* FFA PvP

* 3 Factions instead of 2 Factions

* Player Housing

* Guild Housing

* {Insert your own mechanic here}

Mmorpg are made up of a lot of different mechanics. Getting a game out the door is expensive. So expensive that frequently games are released early. If adding another faction is going to increase the cost of a game that's already pushing it to get out the door, it's too expensive to implement.

I agree with what you're saying, but just want to point out that I wasn't commenting on whether or not DAOC was a good game generally (although I believe it was), I was just wondering about why we don't get 3 factions, and citing DAOC as the perfect example of where we did, and it worked well.

jayarte · February 2011

Originally posted by Kyleran
Some great thoughts about why games don't have 3 factions already rolling in this other thread.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/306621/Three-faction-based-MMO-WTF.html

Thanks for that, Kyleran. Must have missed that thread.

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So, anyone know why games release with only two factions?

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So, anyone know why games release with only two factions?

Comments

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV