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Instancing, Server clustering..
Shawk
Member Posts: 122
With the news of what is happending with Rift now, with the server clustering and their dungeon finder, I thought I would make a thread {mod edit}
It use to be you would have to get a group outside a dungeon, go into the dungeon and explore the dungeon with the friends you have accumulated in your time on that server. Now, you just click a button and get randomly put into a dungeon with a bunch of random folks, half the time you don't even talk let alone make friends with these people.. not that you can even do that seeing as how you lose contact with those people after you leave the dungeon.
This can seem like a nice convienent system untill you think of the reason you play a MMORPG, these games have the MMO infront of them for a reason, they are Massively Multiplayer Online games, they are meant to be experienced with a large community of people, the entire server..
When I played Everquest the server I played on might have had 500-1000 people on it, yet a lot of people knew eachother, there was no Instancing or Clustering of servers so everyone was forced in a sense to work together, this might seem like it would be a bad thing to half you, but it is actually the thing that made the game so amazing.. People would recognize you, half the time you would just be walking down a lonely road and you would see someone you had met before in a dungeon or a zone, it was a real community, unlike now where people hermit themselves in their guilds community of people..
It seems the more advanced this genre gets the more and more it just dies because we are losing grasp of the basics, these games are not meant to be quick fixes, all these 300% flying mounts, and Instance Ques, or Instanct travel options are not meant to be part of this game, if you had flying mounts or instant traveling in EQ1 you wouldn't have experienced 90% of the game, someone you flew over could have been dieing from a wolf, and you helping him could have created a friendship between you and him/her.. they are not casual games that should be played for 1 hour a day, where you can get the best equipment just by pressing a button or two.. they are meant to be played for 4-5 hours a day for a reason.
{mod edit}
Comments
Everything Capitalism touches, turns to crap.
Lazy? Ass? Idiots? You should be nicer. That's pretty insulting right there. You can wish for a different kind of MMO gaming environment, but there's no need to be a jerk about it. How does insulting people create a better community and socialization?
Also, if you want community building games, there's Facebook! My mom loves those games, and she makes friends from around the world, doing... stuff with mousetraps... or something like that. I'm a little unclear on the details, really, but there's always a home where you can socialize to your heart's content and make lots of new friends.
What is so hard about building a cross server community? I still prefer that people be allowed to hop between servers freely, but then again that would make too much sense. If you enjoy grouping with someone from a different server, just add them to your msn or xfire or whatever you use.
Anyways is all read was... "Back in my day we used to walk 15 miles in the snow, barefoot, upside down."
Just learn to adapt, and if you're having trouble making friends, try applying gratuitous amounts of skill.
I totally agree op. I won't buy those games. I buy games that make a real world that has meaningful travel and no instancing. I also choose games that only have one character per account which instills a sense of community. You get to know the people and start gaining a reputation, for the good and the bad.
What is funny is that the systems meant to bring people closer and make things easier for the player end up having the opposite effect and pushing people away.
You're the one advocating playing an MMO 4-5 hours a day, partially because a portion of that time is needed in order to stand around begging for peopel to group up with you, but the guy that wants to log in, join a bunch of people for a dungeon run and spend his entertainment dolars/time being entertained.... that guy is a lazy idiot?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
This guy, and many others, have a very solid point about what is going on. People expect to log on for only 20 minutes and accomplish something meaningful on their character. I think that is an absolutely ludacris idea. If you only have 1 hour a day to play, go play a console game. That is what your ps3, or xbox, or wii is for. It is for hitting up a game, getting your thing on, and getting out whenever you want.
People complain about travel time, non instanced dungeons, what ever! It's so stupid. If I only have 30 minutes to play, I may have made up my mind that I am going to travel to unknown zone X. It is a dangerous road full of peril, and it will take me around 20 to 30 minutes to get there, granted I am safe and don't die on the way. Now I reached zone X and am excited for the next time I get to play because there is this entire new zone I am in and ready to explore. Every game out right now is a means to an end, meaning the level cap, when they should be all about the ride (leveling up).
In all honesty OP, i'm sure you've heard but htere is a time locked everquest progression server. Might be worth it to check it out. Could keep you hooked for a year or 2 until hopefully something that requires thinking, coordination, and group work comes out.
And to all you people who think a game like what we want can coexist in a single game with what is out there. It cannot, simply because people in general are lazy and take the path of least resistance which is why it simply cannot be offered. Look at wow raiding, how many people actually do hardmodes? Maybe 1 or 2 guilds per server. Is it because it is too difficult? No, it's simply because you have to convince other people to do hardmodes which is extremely difficult when they low hanging fruit is so easy to obtain.
{Mod edit}
Are saying that non-instanced dungeons actually encourage soloing?
Interesting assumption, but hey... why not, right? Your incorrect presumptions and snarky comments about my playstyle aside, maybe someone likes to play in groups and not solo; the group finder options get them into a group quickly.
It all starts to get humorous, though. People clamour for grouping tools and LFG tools so they dont have to stand around sapmming channel. Now those tools and features exist, and anyone who uses them are denounced as lazy idiots who are looking for instant gratification.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
There is some great merit in being able to group randomly with people using something akin to WoW's DF tool and there is also some great merit in instancing (and phasing, again, from WoW). However, and this is a big however, your statement of fact is spot on for the most part and you deserve kudos for that. My lady and I are two players who do talk in dungeons with random players and are very big on exploring the world, which is, as you pointed out, a great way to make friends and gaming buddies. We are with you in the minority and happy to find that there are at least some that are vocal about it and want folks who play any MMO game to reconnect with the whole point of the 'MMO' in front of the genre title.
{Mod Edit}
(1)TL:DR must be your way of saying that thinking hurts. Then again, this may explain why it looks like you responded to the post without using your brain.
(2) It's not about community, is it? You just have nothing better to do.
I agree with the OP's point. I don't blame the players, though. People will always look for the easiest route to the end of whatever they are doing, that's just human nature. I think most of those poeple today know that there should be a better game world to play in, but what do you do? It's hard to make friends do do it differently under such circumstances, and you'd be setting yourself back to do that anyways. We are a competitive species that way.
Even though players ask for something, I blame the game (developers or whoever) for caving in on these sorts of things. It's bad for the game, as an MMO. Bad choices by them, and they are calling the shots.
UO had this sort of socializing, yet they also had instant travel via gate spells. People could get together instantly. Moreover, they could bring others into the location if they arrived in game late. And there were no numbers restrictions (no Group system) to keep people out.
Once upon a time....
Loktofeit, you have really lost your way since the debates on the VNBoards. I cannot believe that you, an old UO player, could lose you way so much, in your definition of an MMO.
The OP is right, MMOs now are almost indistinguishable from standard games. And if nothing puts them apart, the definition ceases to hold any meaning.
optional feature is optional?
Look I understand how you feel but they aren't forcing you to use the dungeon finder, get your guild together run dungeons together, explore have fun. They want to offer an alternative for folks who don't have time or friends and would like to still play this game, perhaps they will find some friends and que with them, perhaps they won't, I don't think this means we should exclude them from game design.
If your fear is that there wont' be people meeting each other then you havn't been Rifting my friend, joining up with lots of folks to destroy rifts will over time make you a few friends, maybe even more. Perhaps you will get invited into a guild and never have to use dungeon finder again.
The sky is not falling sir.
If you only have 30 minutes or an hour and you can't find a group right away soloing would be your viable option. Is it going to be better, quicker, and easier than it would be to group? Nope. But it is somethign to do and requires challenging thoughtful play if the mobs are created properly.
You are completely missing the original posters point. While he insulted you it is because instead of wandering around meeting people and building community. People are lazy and woudl rather sit around a big city (which has essentially become a 3d Diablo 2 game lobby) and sit around scratchin your ass till the magic "que" pops and then you run an instance with a bunch of random people you have never met before, hardly talk or communicate, and just get the instance done and be on your merry way. You're essentially playing with a bunch of NPC's in which case. Go play a console game. I heard final fantasy has great AI that plays better than most people. p.s. you wanted snarky so there you have it.
Well, hello fellow VNer!
In many ways I have a lot of the same interests as many of the people here when it comes to MMOs. However, I am not about to claim that what I want is what should be the definition of MMOs, nor am I about to say that others should all like what I like in an MMO.
One really can't compare UO because the gameplay is very different. I can recall to Deceit and start fighting side-by-side with others and chatting immediately whereas the game design of most modern MMOs does not support that at all.It is a distinctly different situation.
However, when it comes to WOW or AoC, I really enjoy queuing up to get into some team content and, honestly, the sooner I am actually playing the game I'm paying for, the better. I have no affinity for spamming an LFG channel, but then again i normally don't play class-restricted MMOs as having an entire group held up for 15 mins as we spam for a healer or tank or whatever simply isn't my idea of fun at all.
The MMO platform can be a thousand things. Many are most familiar withthe standard EQ/WOW-style of MMORPG and are comfortable with that. That's fine. But do dismiss MMOFPS, MMORTS, the puzzle games and the social worlds because they don't fit the definition of what first came out in the 1990's seems really limiting and couterproductive ito the evolution of the genre, the platform and the technology it uses.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I wrote a bunch , realized it was worthless, and will just say that people desire an old school game with that feel, and no one is putting out a game that caters to them. So while they try to get by on these newer games which are not what they are looking for, they get frustrated when features are dumbed down and destroy community. People want a SERVER community, not a guild commnuity.
So far, you really haven't made a strong case for why I would look forward to chancing a conversation with you in a video game.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I kinda agree with the op, but always when people say this game should just die, and no we don't need a game like that, not enough players bla bla. I say there should be space for both type of games, while the go play a console game if you only have a few mins is a decent and true statement, we could and should always have a few mmorpgs that works that way too. The problem is wow is the big leading game which many other company follows, and the big majority of new players that have come across the last few years are used to this and expect it. So what does that mean for us who have played a longer time and want slower travel, interaction and something slightly different than most mmrogps nowadays? Well we are in the minority unfortunately and few company wants to please us, because thats not where the money is. I fear we are "stuck" with indie companies in the future. And while they may make excellent games, they will never have the resources and support of a big company. Sucks, really sucks, but I'm not really sure what can be done? Wow has been a great game, but it has changed the genre and mentality of the a lot of people, to an absurd and bad standard imo.
What essential was "our" genre and home, has been taken over by someone else with a different mindset, and we miss our home. A bit silly statement, but its kinda how it is and how I feel - well at least for me. I am not that close minded, but it just a bit sad to think how things have changed, because there should be space for all kind of games, but there hardly is. Which is not only the players fault.
I will quote myself:
"MMOs now are almost indistinguishable from standard games. And if nothing puts them apart, the definition ceases to hold any meaning."
Did it ever occur to you that people may play MMOs just because of the multiplayer experience? Understand this: there is a difference between socializing and playing a multiplayer game.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I wouldn't blame the market, capitalism, instancing, or anyone in particular. Its the market that will also fix this problem. People WANT socializing. They just don't want it forced on them through downtime or busy-work mundane tasks.
Looking back at bank ATM's, they reduced human interaction. Before you would have to go inside the bank and talk to the teller to get some money. It was frivolous conversation, but I am sure people made friends that way. Yet despite this I don't think we should do away with ATM's just to get the human interaction back.
What we need in games are interesting goals and challenges that encourage human interaction. These new game mechanics like the Dungeon Finder have reduced the busy-work side of interaction, but they never managed to create a better way for us to interact. I think it can be done through some type of game mechanic. Maybe puzzles, challenges, and more game-focused tasks that require teamwork.
We should be focused on how to create meaningful interaction rather then lamenting the loss of meaningless interaction.
MMOs are dead long live MMOs.
Or you could just adapt and you know actually be social, rather than relying on forced crutch mechanics.
Or try other games outside of the "clone of the quarter".
Or pick up a hobby that is actually social and have events like D&D, MTG, Sports, or similar.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
So Rifts and open world PVP and all that...
Not SERVER community?
I mean the way they describe Port Scion you will be spending MOST of your time in that open world zone meeting people and Rifting together.
If thats not SERVER community I don't know what is.
I played UO, I played NVN on AoL, I've been a Mudder and a MMOer and a pen and paper RPGer for years, I agree with Dungeon finder.
Edit: in responce to
"MMOs now are almost indistinguishable from standard games. And if nothing puts them apart, the definition ceases to hold any meaning."
I disagree entirely, MMO stand for Massively Multiplayer Online (generally game follows this) We used to say Diablo wasn't an MMO and that UO was because of Persistant worlds. However, now we know better, an MMO is just any game thats online and massively multiplayer, there are lots of subdivisions as to what other similar games are. For instance an MMORTS MMORPG or MMOFPS all have different rulesets.
You are adding meaning to a word that has enough as it is.
^^^ this.
If i want to just socialize, i will go to a chat room. Plus, i can always socialize with my guild. A DF tool is a WIN beacuse it provide OPTIONS.
I can group with my friends when i want to. And when i want a quick dungeon group, i can use the DF tool .. win-win.
There is a reason why Rift is having this feature. It is WIDELY popular in WOW and obviously noticed by other game developers.