Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Is there no market for sci-fi/fantasy PVE sandbox games?
Explorium
Member Posts: 395
As title says...is there no market for sci-fi/fantasy PvE sandbox/open world games?
I won't name this MMO, as it isn't about that. But, I have yet to find another FANTASY MMO that has a huge open world (what I mainly look for), but still have "quests" to do. Still even with quests, its as open ended as much as Oblivion or Morrowind really (they had quests too). This fantasy MMO had the most fun and unique classes I've ever played in an MMO. And it wasn't PvP focused...almost every sandbox/open world game that has come out is PvP focused. Earthrise...Darkfall...EVE...I can go down the list really...
Only three open world player vs ENVIRONMENT games are out there, as far as I'm aware. Ryzom, and it clings to life and I didn't like it past the isle. Fallen Earth and Vanguard. I guess going back, there is Ultima Online and SWG (which the version I liked doesn't exist anymore)...but I'm focusing on modern MMOs.
For every PvE sandbox/open world game, there seems to be 5 PvP sandbox MMOs coming out.
Is there no market, even for sci-fi games, for PvE sandbox/open world games? I guess a lot of players like PvP, but many polls on these forums and others, there is still 50% or so of people that vote they prefer PvE. There has to be a market for them that is untapped by everyone focusing on PvP.
Sure fighting players is fun, in theory. That is until they bunny hop all over the place, or jumping becomes faster than riding a mount (won't name that MMO) or countless glitches or hacks that always happen in PvP games (even in FPS games, my prefered PvP genre). But for me, PvP belongs in FPS games where everyone is on similar footing...log on, and everyone is on equal footing, and its only skill that comes into play...not gear or stats/skills. The only PvP I've ever liked was from FPS games. Planetside being counted too, that was epic fun despite some problems. PvP for me in RPGs? Not so much.
So I leave this off with a question...is there any room for a modern Player vs Environment sandbox/open world MMORPG, that doesn't have PvP or it has optional PvP servers?
Check out my nature/animal/relaxing music channel on Youtube!
My game channel on Youtube!
http://www.youtube.com/vendayn
Comments
I think a Tale in the Desert. I've never played it, I'm in that minority that prefers PvP.
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
Sandbox implies FFa PvP full loot, just ask anyone here or read one of the many "Why hasn't some dev company made a sandbox just for me" threads.
check out www.xsyon.com its sandbox and although there is ffa pvp there is talk of making pve and pvp servers. so check it out in a few months.
I'm sure there is a market for it, probably a small niche market though. From what I have seen, the majority of people playing MMOs like the choice to PvE or PvP when they want, not be pigeon-holed into one playstyle.
Why do you consider Fallen Earth PvP focused? I was just playing it last night and asking about the PvP since that is what initially attracted me to the game. The general concensus seems to be that FE PvP is a joke and the game is more focused on crafting and PvE.
Well, according to the myriad SWG vets out there (and on these forums), there certainly seems to be a market for it. The problem is, noone is actually making a PvE sandbox game, fantasy, sci-fi or otherwise. I'd be hugely interested in playing one myself - You mentioned Oblivion as an example - Morrowind would be an even better one actually (it's a superior game to Oblivion in everything but graphics), and Bethesda has gone ahead and registered website addresses for an Elder Scrolls related MMO, so you may get your way yet.
However, back to my original point: There are no real pve oriented sandboxes coming out these days, at all. Fallen Earth is kinda-sorta there, but not really, due to the lack of things to do other than questing and crafting. All other games that I can think of are completely PvP focused. I think there's definitely a market for it, but it requires a large list of things to be successful:
Plenty of content/things to do
Good crafting system
Good housing system
Good market system
Optional quests for those that want that
Optional pvp content for those that want that
A large and vibrant world with as little instancing as possible
All of this adds up to it needing to have a lot of of money put into it, to become what is needed/expected by players. Can it be successful? Sure, but it will never be WoW successful. I think that, based on pre-CU SWG's popularity and the vocal community that has followed, that a PvE focused sandbox like this, with it being a AAA title and completely polished from the get-go, could maybe, maybe, get a steady subscriber base of 500k to 1m players, and that's only if they do everything right.
I'm not sure that investors would be willing to fork over the cash needed to make such a game, and for a (relatively) small market share to show for it. It's far more likely that we will see risks like this being taken by indie developers who, for all their good intentions and great ideas, will never be able to get their game to AAA standards in terms of polish and bug-free-ness (yes, that's a word, I just made it up).
Xsyon, if the pvp in that game doesn't turn out too horrible (I know that it's currently pointless and fairly useless) once the game enters the next phase, might be a contender for such a title. It certainly doesn't have the polish of a AAA mmo, but some of the features that are in the game already are very interesting (like the terraforming) and given enough time, it could become a great game.
As for me personally, I will stay away from any full-loot FFA PVP game, sandbox or not. It's not my thing, and not my idea of fun to play. More power to the people who enjoy it, but I suspect that there is a large group of "closet pve sandboxers" out there who would rather be able to play in a world where they don't get griefed at every turn. It's just that the full-looters are that much louder when it comes to talking about games.
http://machineborn.guildportal.com - Now recruiting players!
I put it under the PvE focused open world MMOs. But I see when I put it in the beginning of the post, it made it seem like I was talking about it being PvP focused. I've corrected it.
Check out my nature/animal/relaxing music channel on Youtube!
My game channel on Youtube!
http://www.youtube.com/vendayn
I wouldn't even say that Fallen Earth is sandbox at all, progression is still pretty linear and quest driven S1 - S2 - S3 etc etc
I think mostly us MMO veterans have to realise we are a niche. The problem is that we want someone to make a AAA expensive super high budget standard MMO and have it be a niche interest. I fear that is an unreasonable expectation. Now that production levels dictate that a great looking game is going to cost anywhere between 20 and 100 million USD means that it is only natural the people that back those games maximise their chance of success by aiming at the lowest common deneominator - the casual market and the mainstream.
So in the big picture I would say the answer is no, there is not a big enough amrket for a major PVE centric sandbox game with a AAA budget.
Now if you are willing to have lower production values and still enjoy the game (like Darkfall or Earthrise are for PVP) then maybe there might be a game like that at some point if we are lucky.
Unless one 'of us' wins the lottery and decides to make one for the hell of it with their own money
This is why there are so many players in high-sec in EVE. Most of them do not care for mandatory PVP but love the sandbox environment of EVE. If high-sec was totally free from "jobbing" the system to gank/grief PVE'ers, I suspect that even more people would play EVE. There seems to be large player base that would go for a PVE-themed sci-fi sandbox game that featured optional PVP.
Gaming since Avalon Hill was making board games.
Played SWG, EVE, Fallen Earth, LOTRO, Rift, Vanguard, WoW, SWTOR, TSW, Tera
Tried Aoc, Aion, EQII, RoM, Vindictus, Darkfail, DDO, GW, PotBS
I think there's a huge market out there for it. Most of us here are more hardcore gamers than the average player. But if you look at what's happened in the last few years, many players seem to leave WoW at least temporarily to try out new games. Then they go back to WoW. They aren't posting on message boards, so it's hard to say what they think. But I can't help but think that they'd like a "world" to play in. I mean, it just makes sense that people would expect "world" in an MMO. And they don't really get that feeling from the "WoW clones". When you play a Single Player game, and think to yourself "wouldn't this be great to have a fantasy world like this", I don't think most people want more Single Player gaming. I think they want a world full of other people, one that's interesting and fun, but includes all those other people as part of it all, and is a world. Not more instances and pre-planned quests.
And if so many hardcore gamers are tired of the old standby "clones", wouldn't many less hardcore also be?
Once upon a time....
I would definetly play a PvP-free EVE. I quit EVE multiple times because of the way PvP kept limiting my freedom to play the game I wanted to play it.
I'm certain that there is a market for such a game. It's almost funny, fantasy games have traditionally had higher numbers than sci-fi titles, yet there isn't a single fantasy sandbox on the market without the FFA PvP and full loot formula. Therefore some people even assume that sandbox and FFA PvP means the same.
I'm quite confident that a fantasy sandbox without the FFA PvP full loot component could be very successfull. That doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be a PvE game - guild vs. guild games or RvR can provide enough of an endgame without having to rely on the FFA PvP characteristic.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
There are people who use the terms interchangably, but there are also many of us who see PvP sandboxes as just a subset of the wider concept of sandbox worlds.
There does seem to be a blind spot in the industry that sees all player interaction as either competitive or grouping, overlooking the possibility that people might be drawn to an environment filled with casual/passive/friendly coexistence.
You don't necessarily have to make a game free of ffa pvp and full loot. You just have to implement it in a way similar to runescape. Have certain portions of the world be ffa w/ looting and such. That way everyone gets their fix in one world.
Sandbox can just be PVE too ^^
The logic is that (i think) if players go back to WoW, ('80% came back' Blizz CEO quote) it means the vast majority preferred WoW over whatever game they tried.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
What would you do in EVE if there was no PvP? run missions for ever?
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Well, yes. But there's another issue too. They tried the other games. Why? Were they simply looking to see if there's a better game? Or are they tired of WoW, but can't find that "something different"? (At least, in a quality production.)
The law of averages usually is pretty accurate. If so many hard(er) core gamers are here stating that they want a "World" instead of a "Clone", are these less hardcore gamers that much different?
Once upon a time....
Sandbox sci-fi done well is going to cost a lot. I mean way to much money for a game that is probably considered a niche game by the people who view MMOs as an investment.
Edit: so there may be a market; however, the market may not be able to support the cost of development. I would not hold my breath.
--John Ruskin
I would go out into unexplored space, built myself a base there, prospect for rare materials and slowly create an industrial base. Then I would invite other players to join me so we could cooperate in building up a a whole community. There would not really be any need for combat except to clear out pesky npcs.
Of course for this vision of mine to work, that version of EVE would have to be way more sandboxy than what EVE is right now.
I could see something like this working where the players represent people who are pirates/freedom fighters, trying to break off from some sort of main galactic empire. Just have stuff on pretty harsh lockdown, so people either have to build up in out of the way places, or if they want to claim some out of the way outpost, they have to be ready to build up and hold down the fort against the reprisals and liberation fleets.
I think its clear that you'd have to have dynamic content the main focus of a PvE sandbox, right? I'm not seeing this going back to endlessly killing of wandering NPCs spread around the world. To make the whole game like that would be a a huge feat.
I'm not sure I understand your comment. Wouldn't wondering NPCs be dynamic? (I do need more coffee, maybe I'm just not clear headed enough at the moment.)
I suspect the answer would be something in between. Just guessing right now.
Once upon a time....
Wandering NPCs of the old days. But yes ones that acutally roam around from place to place instead of being always in a predictable spot or somewhere in between would be great.
It needs to be a hybrid, IMO. 50% sandbox/ 50% themepark. It should be possible to play it like a sandbox game. But also possible to play like a themepark game. Or you could do some of the themepark content and play it like a sanbox after that.
Quests should be for items only. No quest based leveling. Not linear in any way. No instances... An open world that you need to explore.
Wouldn't a few optional very long/ deep story quests in a sandbox be pretty much the same thing? Maybe have a new one added every 3 months.