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Rift: The Dungeon Finder Brouhaha
SBFord
Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
The Rift dungeon finder tool has caused a bit of schism, or at the very least a lot of heated debate, in the Rift community since its introduction recently. In today's column, MMORPG.com Lead Writer Bill Murphy splits his personality to examine both sides of the issue and to offer a few thoughts about the controversy. Check it out and then weigh in with your thoughts in the comments below.
First and foremost, though I’m sure the cynics would say otherwise… we don’t know what the shape of Rift’s group finding tool will be. Are the chances high that it will be akin to WoW’s? Yes, I think we can say as much, considering how quickly and effortless it made finding groups for dungeons and how Trion has stated that this is their goal with their own tool. And while I understand the sentiment that such a tool breaks the community, especially when presented as cross-server, I also understand why Scott believes there is a need for one.
Read more of Bill Murphy's Rift Weekly: The Dungeon Finder Brouhaha.
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Comments
Good article, and I agree, at the start I HATED the dungeon finder tool but now I am warming up to it, not 100% in favour of X-Realm but it works fine in WoW. I used it while I was leveling but now that my guild is all back together we just grab a guild group and go. Certainly won't put me off from playing, may use it, may not but its a feature some people could use.
In WoW a lot of groups are still formed the old way, plainly because you can inspect gear before you go, and it saves the dice roll of landing in a nightmarishly bad PUG.
Thanks for influencing other companys blizzard, after I finish playing one or two mmo's ive been playing im done with this genre.
I disagree with this article, it is features like the Dungeon Finder in WoW which kills immersion in newer games. Money talks and bulls*it walks. All of these features cater to casual players that do nothing for the community on their server yet dictate the design by numbers and their subscriptions. Sigh. Still, I hope Trion does not implement a Dungein Finder like tool, and that people shoud PUG when necessary but should aim to join a guild or (yes!) make some friends or invite some to the game. It is an MMORPG, not a single player adventure where you can see other people play the same adventure as you... I find that running an instance using a dungeon finder doesn't feel the same as putting a group together from scratch, there is no socializing or teamwork at all, and as the article says, it's only function is to help players see some content that they would ordinarily have to find a group for.
This is exactly why people crave the design of the old games, because those were designed to enforce a strong player community and gave enough freedom that sometimes players goofed around using emotes or roleplaying instead of just running quests constantly, or queing up for a "dungeon finder"... meh
Favorites: Vanguard SOH, Final Fantasy XI, Dungeons and Dragons Online
Future:
Final Fantasy XIV 2.0
EverQuest NEXT
Wizardry Online
Vanguard F2P edition (fingers crossed)
http://vgrpgblog.blogspot.com/
I'm one of those people that probably would lose interest without a dungeon finder. Just because there are other games to be played and I don't have the time to spare.
You realize that you can still do things the old way? Stop trying to force people to change the way they are and force your definition of fun on them when you have the option to do it your way already.
Perhaps it is possible to put some options into the DF. I.e. It starts searching on your server and you are put into a party of 2-3. After 1 minute the DF asks something like "There are no more people LFG who fit to your needs. Continue searching on your server or switch to other servers?" But then you would need a group leader, I guess.
It really isn't about choices. A dungeon finder tool will completely change the behavior of the community on a server. I also do not believe a dungeon finder is very good at what it does. For instance, I found groups much faster in DDO's LFG tool (which is not cross server), which always resulted in several people of different job classes requesting to be in my group to run a particular dungeon. WoW's dungeon finder is something like this: takes forever if you're dps, and if you're a tank or a healer, you may have to wait on the other. I played healer and there were several times were I had to wait awhile for a tank and more than a few times where tanks kept declining. I also notice that important group members such as healers and tanks will just log out (it's cross sever, so there reputation stays in tact), and leave everyone and then the waiting process begins all over again.
I suppose a same server LFG tool like in DDO's would be best for Rift. Dungeon finder is just not that great of a concept.... It sounds better than it works.
...and it is not about choices. It will change the entire atmosphere in the game and nobody would talk to eachother unless they are recruiting for a guild and everyone will just be queued up. I hope Rift opts for a simple, effective LFG tool that is not cross server instead.
Favorites: Vanguard SOH, Final Fantasy XI, Dungeons and Dragons Online
Future:
Final Fantasy XIV 2.0
EverQuest NEXT
Wizardry Online
Vanguard F2P edition (fingers crossed)
http://vgrpgblog.blogspot.com/
I ran Realm of the Fae this morning and me an a friend spammed L3M DPS/Support for ROTF. People whispered ''invite me, i'm X class''. The only moment we socialized was when people whispered us to get into the group. We ran the whole thing without saying anything except the strats for the bosses...so i don't see how different it is from grouping with the dungeon finder....
The only bad thing i see with a dungeon finder is that people tend to stay in major cities and click ''Queue for X dungeon''. But i think it would be better in this game because people will have to move to do the rifts and get gears.
what about people who dont have time to do quests,same teleport tool to them is good idea too?
or gathering,same tool for them too?
who dont have time to search rare bosses,same tool for them too?
i think theres still shopping channels too,what about those people? who dont have time to spam shopping channels in hope to find that rare item what he needs,or dont have time to search good deals,money finder tool for them?
Generation P
I agree that a ''server only'' Dungeon finder would be the way to go because of the way people leave group in Wow.
I like this idea! Maybe a Poll should come up on the screen for everyone in the group asking that.
Fail dude, so fail. If you plan to do quests tonight, short of the server being down you will, if you farm mobs you will get money, if you farm mats you get mats, but you could be spamming chat channels for hours and not find a group on a bad night, so its not the same, not by a long shot.
I have 6 hours a night to play, luckely I am in a decent guild with some gr8 guys so I never have problems finding a good group, the same can not be said for people who prefer to go it alone, they could be on for 6 hours and do 1 dungeon, or none. Not to mention the hassle of spamming chat and hoping for a response, that may never come.
So I am sorry, your arguement hold's no water.
Great, thanks for proving the point that socializing is dead. You either roll with people you already know, or you use the dungeon finder with people you'll never see again. And they don't even talk while you're playing, just mindlessly go through the instance. Might as well be playing with bots. Diablo here we come!
I also agree it should be server only because at least you know the people have to be some what commited to the instance. I love how the article says "they’re not mandatory." It's seem from a lesson that they did not learn from blizzard it actually becomes Mandatory. You could spam in chat all day and only get a response of "use the dungeon finder".
Why would I want to play with people I don't know ? With my guildies I have vent, and peeps I can depend on. Do you walk around in the street greeting everyone you see and hoping they will be your special fwend ?
We talk shit, Lol and generaly have a damn good time, how is that not socializing ?
maybe one of your guildfriends just picked that flower in front of my nose,now i want insta teleport to other servers and back since i dont have time to wait new to spawn,,,maybe same friend of yours bought that one and only mega sword +1 from AH,now i want tool so i can search from other servers.
and hey theres beggar begging for money but he dont have luck in this server,he needs tool so he can spam all servers simultaneously.
sorry but these kind of tools are maybe for you,but not for me.
Generation P
2 Version should be playable. Some realm should be allowed to be mixed for instances/dungeons, and some others should be more private.
Playing in a realm with fewer player is another way of progressing... slowly, proudly, hardely and even lonely... Social is great but I and a few others im sure like the feeling of being surprised and happy of seeing ppl around, not just like, duh, another fool to steal my kills or quests items...
I remember I once play Diablo II classic hardcore in 2003 just for self accomplishement of lvling without much help of stronger players, tho if needed it was still possible.
If its so easy to find a group, you can without any remorse ditch your teammates of the moment, give crap or it can be they other way, your learning by example to tank and the others just dont give a crap about you, they can easily without any remorse give crap to you. -BUT- If they know the world is little and they will meet you again, they might train you and ect... Have a hard time and you'll remember him and he will remember you, hard times are not so easily forgotten.
ALL THIS EXCLUSIVITY FOR : People in need of a deeper social experience with other players. Its not for everyone. But the need of the style I think is there, Imagine being a good tank in a small world, where you are known for your thoughness and your likeable personnality... you might not need to see your real life friends that often xD You're needed online !!
I said hot stuff about having no X-realm, but there are many disadvantage as well, especially since it cost money to transfer a character, and building a good one is not as fast as it was in Diablo II.
End game seekers = high population fully mixed faster to group, fast to accomplish, fast PuG, faster progression, being rushed can be easier, but feeling unique can be hard when you see you're clone everywhere ! Its great for casual players its not a pain to progress in a short time.
sorry, screw my grammar I learned to write in ENG. with Diablo2 and to speak with WoW
So don't use them
All your "arguements" are lolable tbh, its the same rant over and over.
Here's my issue:
You use the dungeon finder sitting in Dalaran, SW, or whathave you.. instantly transported to X dungeon... fight X dungeon, barely speaking to your buddies, teleport BACK to where you started.
Mind you, these ACTUAL dungeon locations are located across the map that could take you upwards of an hour or 2 to RUN to IRL. Thus, now the primary "hangouts" become the cities. So people just sit there in the city and teleport all around.
Now, Cata changed this (kinda). You now had to FIND the dungeon yourself the first time. Then what? Same ol'. You sat in the city waitin for the queue to pop.
On a PvP server, this issue is then FURTHER compounded by the fact that MAYBE just MAYBE someone wants to camp Southshore or SFK or Scarlet... then what? People teleport INSTANTLY past obstacles (they CHOSE to be on a PvP server, so they CHOSE to have to deal with the accompanying fighting that comes with it).
That's lame. By making things too easy, you no longer have to THINK for yourself. Fine, you want a dungeon queue system? Go to a rune outside of the dungeon (OMG, actually have to physically GO to the dungeon) and CLICK it to insert yourself into the queue for the dungeon. Problem solved.
Game = Fun
Spamming OOC != Fun
DF = Game
A DF system is a must have if you want the dungeons from 1-49 to ever be seen. I play MMOs to group, but I am not going to stand in a corner and spam for any ammount of time or wait for my guild run. I want to run instance A, the game better make it possible everytime I get the urge. About the only game that had been sucessful at getting groups started other than WoW/DC is CoX because content scaled and you could grab a duo, get going and grow the group overtime. Normal MMO means you stand around until you have your 5-6, no superpowers so long travel time to zone and group could be complete mess meaning complete waste of time as you travel back to where you were or spam for a replacement.
Really that simple. If you are against a DF system you are essentially against having fun the entire time you play games. Or you find spamming LFG fun, can't help with that
Why would I want to play with people I don't know ? With my guildies I have vent, and peeps I can depend on. Do you walk around in the street greeting everyone you see and hoping they will be your special fwend ?
We talk shit, Lol and generaly have a damn good time, how is that not socializing ?
Do not forget, your guild also was a bunch of unknown people, before you met them.
By the way I always go the route "New Game, new Guild".
100% True, and we recruited 2 more unknowns yesterday
In a couple of weeks they will be part of the family, until then we get to haze em :P
I have played with this bunch on and off for about 4 years, some are gonna play rift with me some aren't but we will be on the same vent so NP there.
See that is where you are sorely mistaken. How they implemented it in WoW you pretty much HAVE to use it because everyone else does so that they can take advantage of getting their "Free Badges". So while it is optional to click on the tool and use it, Blizzard has made it a necessity in establishing groups - even groups that are preformed like guild groups.
Let me also say that Blizzard's implementation of the Dungeon Finder including cross-server grouping essentially ruined any sort of communities that exsisted on servers. Having to make friends on a server helped form better communties and guilds and while it was not the "easy" way in the long run it made the game better. People play MMO's to play with other people - more specifically real-life friends and friends met through previous online games. I still keep in touch and play games with people I met 12-years ago in EQ, a game I played for 3-years compared to WoW that I played for 5-years that I only keep in touch with a few people.
The best thing a MMO can do if they want to go down this route is to go to a single shard system like EVE where everyone can see, communicate and trade with everyone else - not JoeNobody that you may or may not ever see again.
The difference is that your players are doing nothing while standing around waiting for a group. Players who stand around doing nothing or waiting for stuff to happen become ex-players. Ex-players do not make developers any money.
The slippery slope thing only applies when the slope is actually slippery. Players still have to run the dungeon to get the gear or the XP.
As far as putting a group together without a looking for group tool when it exists, outside of guilds, I don't think that's going to happen. But if your goal is to be social, you're probably going to be in a guild anyway. Then you can spend as much time as you want putting a group together to run something.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
And this ladies and gentlemen, is proof that modern MMOs aren't social.
Playing with people you don't know used to be the entire appeal of MMORPGs. You took part in a living world, met people and made friends. Many of my best online friends came from random pick up groups inside non instanced dungeons.
Now, people either solo quest grind, or run with people they ALREADY know.
MMOs are dead, and you're the reason.