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Minecraft and Xsyon, what word of mouth can do, and lessons to be learned.
Gintoh
Member UncommonPosts: 329
Man when I first saw minecraft I laughed out loud, look at the graphics! I thought no one would play it, then forgot about it, but now it became super popular and I looked into it and it's so fun, and it has like 1.5 million copies sold.
Xsyon looked like a silly vaporware product, I laughed it off knowing it would fill, now people say it's awesome and it's #3 on the mmorpg.com hype-meter just behind SWOTR and Rift, beating out GW2 and Tera two huge budget games.
Both games had no advertising and where desighned by 1 guy. Is this there a lesson for devs here? Yes, a great concept will speak for itself and beat out a formulaic one with all the pretty graphics, people want Sandbox games and it could be profitable if done right.
Seriousley where the heck did Xsyoncome from? In the last two weeks it's gone from no one even knowing about it and the few who do laughing it off as poorly produced vaporware, to having it's hype level just explode. The Xsyon devs didn't predict the popularity and now the servers are getting overloaded.
Same goes for Minecraft all though that came out longer ago. Love looks cool also and I think that might be another "out of nowhere" game also. Notice all of these have 1 man dev-teams that seem to be getting bigger groups of hardcore followers (as in not just people who play for like 2 months) then many AAA releases in the past, which shows if you have a tiny dev team with a ambitious vision people will respect tha,t and on the other hand won't respect big AAA dev teams who are just in it for the money and don't have a vision and are just copy-and-pasting the same old formula.
Comments
I agree completely.
Imo mainstream publishers were just too thick-headed for the past ten years or so to "risk" money to go into the "unexplored territory". (Which is not unexplored at all, considering that conceptual predecessors of sandbox mmos are some of the biggest grossing games in history, to name just Sims and Simcity for starters)
And now, starting with Zynga and its ludicrous sandbox toy called Farmville and then the "legoland" appeal of Minecraft the chicks are coming home to roost... No wonder Rift is not doing stellar, despite all the polish and assets involved. It's just a tired old concept which grew boring a long time ago but no one had the balls to yell "the king is dead!" yet. Sandboxes are coming up in a big way imo. Just consider that the top population mmo right now is Farmville ffs, which is nothing but a literal square sandbox. Just consider. I bet all those folks sinking tens of millions into another railroad quester with gazillions of hours of voice-overs and libraries of personalized, precisely-timed "stories" feel downright foolish.
As for the sandbox failures for the past ten years or so.. imo the problem is not the sandbox concept itself but it's inept execution that those games had in common. To put it simply, they were BAD sandboxes. And bad games don't do well whatever their genre is.
Minecraft is in a completely different league than Xsyon the fact is Minecraft is not an mmo and does not have to please the MMO crowd, most ppl I know that play mineraft wouldnt play MMO's period.
Xsyon is a nice concept but it is a low quality product overall, it will go down the road of Darkfall, Aion( in the west, it is quite popular in the east ) and many others. That doesnt mean it will fail but that is not what the powerhouses are looking for, and I very much doubt Xsyon will be more profitable than Rift in the long run.
Minecraft and Farmville are no sandbox MMO's.
Love seems interesting, agreed.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
The AAA MMOs should die , and soon as possible.
I applaud Xsyon , Minecraft , Love .... Even Darkfall and Earthrise
No.
The reason Xyson has a tiny bit of hype right now is because it was just released or whatever.
Wasnt Minecraft 5 bucks?
I pay 5 bucks for crappy games all the time.
Jeremiah 8:21 I weep for the hurt of my people; I stand amazed, silent, dumb with grief.
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huh GW2 is still #1 and has been for a long time.
There is a few things to remember ,comparing Indie to large devs.
A dev team of say 60 shows up to work for EA,they can't sit around and do nothing while a couple bigshots decide on new ideas or direction.A small 2-3 man team can do that,they don't have 50 people getting paid to sit there.
The problem is although a small team can move at their own pace and make changes whenever they want,they are also lacking many things the larger dev can afford.
A better game engine,more people to work on maps,more textures,more classes,more animations,more sound and music files,more mobs ect ect.A small team is going to be very limited in it's design.
Although many large dev teams have the manpower,i have noticed they are skipping out on a lot of things as well,basically selling us a half ass effort.We have seen almsot every PVP game release with ONLY 2 factions,can't get any more lazy than that in design.We are seeing large teams release a game with one starting city,again pretty lame.
There are other factors as well,it would take a lot of work to make several sets of gear for every level ,every race/class,so the small team with their 3-4-5 class can handle it,but they are limited in thta they cannot handle anymore.
Bottom line is word of mouth means nothing anymore,we have seen every single game full of fanbois talking about their game is the best on the planet,usually with nothing to back it up other than the two most common statements..."It's FUN" or "It has 9 bazillion players".Smartest thing anyone can do ,is play a trial/Beta and decide for themselves,but yes word of mouth ,does at least get the game noticed.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I think word of mouth means a lot more now than it ever did in regards to MMOs and I'm not talking about forum posts. Most players who have tried more than a few MMOs know by now not to believe the hype, and that good official reviews actually mean something.
Perhaps one day players will not be so desperate to find a good game that they preorder the special edition of every new MMO that comes along. This basically gives the developers free reign to release whatever the hell they want whenever the hell they want. Some people might have enough time and money to try every new game that comes out. I do not.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Wow, so many arguments for or against the OPs topic I couldn't point/counter-point them all. I think the lesson is simple: If you make a game that is fun, word will get around. I believe this is what happened to Xsyon and Minecraft. Does it have staying power... Time will tell. All of the wizards out there who predict fail fail fail are always in abundance and if they keep saying it, eventually one of their predictions will come true to one of the games they prophesise about.
I self identify as a monkey.
Yes they are, by any definition.
Sorry, but what you're probably trying to say is "Minecraft and Farmville are no STANDARD, WHAT WE'VE SEEN BEFORE sandbox mmos". But they are sandbox (players are the primary creators of content) massively multiplayer online games. Saying that they are not is simply ludicrous because they are sandbox massively multiplayer online games.
We can reasonably argue whether GW1, for example, is a "proper" mmo or not but we really cannot about those two games you mentioned.
Just because you've never seen a blue car before doesn't mean that blue one is not a car. It is still a car even if its blue. Dig?
Ditto what MG said there.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Fixed that for ya
AAA companies killed the MMO genre, which for me is the best videogame genre ever.
It's time more caring people take over, yes.
An honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)
Xyson is cool
"It has potential"
-Second most used phrase on existence
"It sucks"
-Most used phrase on existence
Well Xsyon got 7K members on their forum right now, wouldn't call that spectacular, but it says alot compared to the hype level on this site. Looks too flimsy right now, might give it a try when it gets stable but I'm way more excited about ArcheAge.
Nope, they're not in the general definition as it has been used so far.
If you want to stretch and extend the definition, that's your call and opinion, but if those are - again, according to your personal viewpoint which doesn't make it the generally accepted one - sandbox MMO's then you can include a f*ckload of other games too on the MMO list
ArcheAge and WoD, those look to be the first upcoming AAA sandbox MMO's we can expect, after years of none like that.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
People are saying, "AAA MMOs Should Die!" What do you play? World Of Warcraft? Im pretty sure thats a AAA MMO. Plus guess who really innovated MMOs and made them what they are today? Ever Quest... made by? SOE aka a AAA company with loads of cash. Once again... who made the next big game after EQ? Blizzard Entertainment... a company that was a AAA company after the release of Warcraft 3 which came out before WoW.
Who ever says that AAA MMOs/Companies should die has no arguement thats worth while. Simply if they were to die wed be left with Mortal Onlines, Darkfall Onlines, Xsyons, and hell even Earthrises that release WAAAAAY to early because they are to dumb to realize there game sucks. I mean hell, Mortal Online had a fail ass launch and still is terrible even today, Darkfall had a fail launch and isnt very popular still, Xsyon said it was releasing like 8 months ago and is still in developement with EQ type graphics... and lets not even mention Earth Rise... Masthed studios should put there heads down in shame and stop game developing forever.
Thats just my thoughts on that. Xsyon shouldnt get praised yet, Minecraft should.
"sandbox" Are they sandbox? Yes, they are.
"massively multiplayer" Are they massively multiplayer? Yes they are.
"online" Are they online? Yes they are.
Those games fullfill all three requirements to be called "sandbox massively multiplayer online" games.
I don't know what YOUR "generally accepted" definition is but those games are sandbox and massively multiplayer and online lol.
Once upon a time it was "generally accepted" that the earth is flat and that there be dragons lol.
Maybe your definition (according to "your personal viewpoint" heh) of a sandbox mmo is "something that sucks and is for die-hard old fogies and hopeless idealists" but frankly it does not equate the literal meaning of the following word string: "sandbox massively multiplayer online" game.
.. and as for your last point I quite agree - I have no idea why Minecraft and Farmville are not included on the list here. Imo this site needs a major conceptual overhaul since the genre's a bit grown from the UO/EQ days. If they want to keep up with the times they should definitely include facebook games as well as weird experimental (but oh so lovable) shit like Minecraft and Love.
Your argument against Xsyon is that it has bad graphics, and then you praise Minecraft?
This is going nowhere. The definition of MMORPG's and MMO games is a simple format, a persistent world in which you and a large amount of players can freely roam, that's why even the ANet people called their game a CORPG instead of a MMORPG. Minecraft and Farmville are even farther away from the MMO format than a GW. According to your definition of 'massively multiplayer' you can even call COD or LoL or Diablo 2&3 MMO's because they're 'massively multiplayer'.
You may want the definition to be that, but up till now it's not how the definition has been used. Who knows, maybe in future those will be included as well, but that's not the present.
For the rest, agree to disagree and all that, I've stated what I thought about it, you've made your point, I can't and don't want to add anything to it that hasn't been already said.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Minecraft has great graphics actually... If good graphics were equated to "realism" and "huge polygon count" then it would be too easy to make good looking computer game. Imo minecraft has exactly the perfect graphics for its theme and carefuly crafted style. If it were more "realistic" and had greater polygon count, it wouldn't be as good as it is.
There are those things called "style" and "theme" you know. And Picasso is a great artist. And yes, he could draw super-realistic like you wouldn't believe but choose not to in order to stay true to his "theme" or whatever he was trying to express.
You have movies done in black and white even today and you won't say "oh this film's photography sucks - what lamers, they couldn't even get the colour on screen lol". Take a look at "Dead man" for example and tell me it's "bad photography". Imo the art of computer graphics has progressed beyond this purely technical yardstick. We're beyond the medium's infancy now lol.
Well Minecraft isn't an MMORPG.
If Xsyon can get 200k monthly weatern sub, I'm sure some company will look into it and copies it's formula.
No my main issues not the graphics, its the indie release bs that people go through. I know some people who put money on the game when they said it was releasing in a month... and sure enough its not out yet. Plus the engines crap if it cant support 2011 graphics, the combats just clicking, and theres no open world PVP.
In Xsyon case..I don't think the Devs ever anticipated it to be a blockbuster....they didn't even anticipate the numbers they had last Friday. It is both a good and bad thing. Good that they are getting a few more people than expected...bad that the pre-launch is delayed a bit.Good again that it pointed out flaws early on that can be rectified. It's not like they are telling lies to cover ass or blowing smoke up ours. They've been straight and that alone is refreshing..much like the game itself.
Minecraft is no MMO. actually the owner already declined to evolve it to a MMO. everbody who says, that it is a MMO, says that this dev got no clue about his own game. just because a few hundred guys can login in one server does not make it "massively". it is just a MO or COOP at this point of time.
it is astonishing how much attention these indie sandboxes got lately. i hope they are succesful enough for such small companies in order to survive. it will tell the bigger companies, that a MMO is more than one big quest from 1 to 60 followed by raid instances. however, as long as 20 mio of 22 mio MMO-players prefer to consume games like their daily soap and a BigMac, we should not overrate such indie-games. Well, if once a AAA-sandbox (most propably without PvP everywhere) goes beyond 1 mio active subscribers, ... thats another story.
i myself love challenging games and the sandbox model, but Xsyon, Perpetuum, WORM and others are just too puristic for me. lots of features missing, cheap graphic engine and other stuff. somebody already mentioned the reasons for these limitations of an indie.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds