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My Concerns with Xyson
nickelsig229
Member UncommonPosts: 27
I want to play this game becuase I feel that after 14 years of MMO's I may finally get that feeling of satisfaction that I got from my first MMO. However I have so many concerns, and they all Stem from the Devs. Don't mistake this for some flame thread, becuase it's not.
My major concern is not unfounded. I read the forums everyday, I have been for a while, and I can not believe the overnight sensation that Xyson has become. I understand many players from many games are and were waiting for this game to drop so they could check it out and possibly make the jump over. I just didn't think it would be so viral and with such diverse outlooks.
You see, I want so badly for this to be a game that I can build my empire, defend it, and conquer yours. Many people want it to be a world building experiment. Others want it to be their own creation. Everyone always bitches to devs "be transparent", "let us know whats going on" and "you make the game for the subscribers so listen to us". In Xyson, you have what is among the top of the charts, as far as dev's accepting input from players, and it is commendable, however, I fear it's part of what is tearing the community apart.
You see, we all want our own idea of a perfect game. With that idea, we can break off into a couple groups with like minded people. At some point, those groups will clash and strife breaks out about our beloved ideas for this game. We are passionate about or desires becuase we have all seen good ideas go to waste with poor development and handling by too many publishers. Finally, we all want our idea to be the one the dev's develope into the game.
My thoughts are, regardless of what my desires are for the features and ruleset of the game, that the Dev's are making it up as they go along. Now mind you I'm not bashing and dont mean to sound like I am. I just cant shake the feeling that so much is cryptic, so much is changing, and so much is left to "in the future" that no one knows what this game is going to be tomorrow, 3 months from now, or 9 months from now. That is the main frustration that I have. The game is not truly ready for release, that is a reality that everyone is aware of and accepting of. Its clear that NG needs the resources for the final push, and people are willing to accept that as well. What is not acceptable is not being absolutely clear what people are investing their money into. I would have subed 2 accounts for preorder if I felt the game would be more like shadowbane then wurm, but we just don't know what the game will be.
I can afford 40 dollars, I can afford 15 a month, what I can't afford is 9 months of playing a game waiting to see if what I thought, what i was led to believe, or what was "a possibility in the future" will become reality.
I believe the Dev's are just not quite sure what they are going to make the final ruleset, or they don't want to push away either of the groups of people with opposing ideas for the game. And that is its major downfall. I can't understand how there wont be a large amount of players who don't receive from the game what they believed they would.
All I can think is that for 6 months a majority of the players will be content, after that they may have found they wasted 6 months on a game that morphed into something they do not want to be a part of. Personally, I'm still on the hunt for that one game that I can settle into for years rather then a rat race to endgame before finding the next one to play.
Comments
Well let me start off by saying, I can understand your concerns, and it's good that you aren't raging and keeping a cool head. However, some of your thought processes are flawed.
I think you are dishearted on some facts of what you thought Xsyon would be in your mind. So in actually, you are disappointed from your own idealistic process. Look, it will always, and I mean always be impossible to live up to ideals. Even your ideals can't live up to your ideals. If you thought Xsyon would be like Shadowbane, well that was your mistake not the devs fault. Xsyon is Xsyon. However you thought the game would be or think it should be, it won't be. That is the first fact that needs to be understood and excepted or you will never be happy.
Idealism is an impossible thing to live up to in a tangible element. Xsyon is the creation of Jordi's vision, his idealism. He never said I will make the perfect game for you personally. It is his. Sure he takes feedback from the forums, and tries to comprimise here and there, but ultimately he will not and can not make everyone happy. Understand what you want, someone else might not want. It's not up to you to decide the fate of the game and nor should it. If you want to make a game in your vision, then go for it, until then you are whining that Xsyon isn't what you thought it would be. So let me be clear so you understand. Xsyon is not your game, and it isn't the idealistic Nirvana. It's a game made by someone else's vision and trying to match his idealism, not yours.
And for the fact that you believe that the devs are making it up as they go. Sometimes that is how it goes, especially in the sandbox model. Many things are player driven and where that takes us in 6 months is uncertain. You might not agree with this, but that is how it goes. We have a base system and a frame work to go on. Will actual bills be used as currency or will the barter system prevail forever? Who knows? Will people make amazing structures and towns, or will people just get bored and just wander the wilderness attacking everything and everybody? No one knows? Will the major tribes break down and everyone will just go to homesteads? Who knows? How do you expect the devs to think 6 months ahead when, we the player base, don't even know what our actions will be in 6 months. I think Xsyon is great for this. It brings in Chaos Theory, because we, the people, are the agents of this. We can be unpredictable, and so with such a rich environment of almost anything can go, it's very hard to predict what will happen in 6 months.
Just play the game for what it is right now, because games can change drastically with a single patch, like SOE's infamous NGE.
That's kind of the point of his thread, who would play 3 or 4 months of SWG knowing full well an NGE was coming? Why invest time in something which may suit your ideals now but will be changing drastically in fairly short order, there are too many other games out there to play which you could have faith in, rather than suddenly be playing a different game later down the line.
It's not a point of wanting an exact game plan for the game, but atm there are some fundamental mechanics still up in the air. The abolition of totem safezones will be voluntary we have been told that so far, so that is a pretty good pointer for where they plan for this to go. On the other hand, as we have already seen, they are willing to change their plans according to polls being held on the forums. That is all well and good when you have a fairly hardcore 500-1000 people checking in, but when your numbers swell to over 10k people want direction and they would like that direction to be that of the devs vision for a game and stick to it, rather than the hardcore tribes bumping all the benefits to thier style of play, which in someways is okay too, so long as they let everyone know that's how it's going to be.
Having said all that, it's their game and they can do what they want and if people are willing to accept that there's a good chance the game they think they are playing is in fact not going to be that game for very long, then whats the problem.
See what I did there, I just had an arguement with myself. WooHooo I won!
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The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
i would, because even those 3 - 4 months of fun would be worth it.
Then what was all the rage about when the NGE hit? Surely people should have just been greatful for having the time they did.
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The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
I agree that the devs are making it up as they go along! Thats the plan.
They are using prelude to see how the community shapes the game and they will expand the game and chinge it accordingly. Not only are we shaping the enviroment, but we are shaping the actual game itself.
Now the downside to this is that players are going to get left behind. The majority will shape the game while the minority gets left behind in maybe a game they dont like. now as a buisness model this sounds like it cant work. but as a gamers model we cant ask for anything better.
The devs that are producing this game seem to be games players themselves..which is refershing
By the way my opinions are biased as im having a great time and really can't wait for the final wipe!
Signing off Telil...Xyson fanboy.
because it is probable that most of people sees it same as you do? i was just saying, that there are people (e.g. me), who sees it differently.
I would say play it simply to be part of something that could turn out to be special!
If it doesnt...then does it really matter? most games last me 2 to 3 months these days because they are so easy. but just the chance that this could be something that we as players shape...is well worth the risk for me.
mrwOlf come and be part of it!
I can see where you're coming from mrw0lf, as I too am watching to see if I want in on this game. As I see it so far, this game "seems" like it will be rather dynamic in it's updates with the developers basing their decisions on what the player base wants via poles. Which lends the active forum and wesite visitors much more power than the average person who only logs into the game. Which kind of makes a meta game out of the game for people to campaign for support for their ideas to be added to the game.
As such, You have to ask yourself: "What kind of gamer do you plan to be?"
-One who only logs into the game and goes with the flow like most people who play themepark games?
-Or one who champions/supports particular routes for the game to go on the forums?
Will you be a sheep to be lead by a sheperd, or a wolf looking to be alpha of the pack? The Emotionally smooth path, or the path with the emotional rollercoaster of winning and losing to ideas added in game?
I find it to be an interesting aproach personally. As no other devs do anything beyond potentially taking a good suggestion. I'm personally a watcher type. I get my kicks from watching others. Which I seem to be able to do without actually playing the game lol.
I am playing and I'm loving it atm (although I much prefered it before the sudden influx before wipe and subsequent lag making it unplayable for me). I was just saying I do share some of the concerns that the OP has. This type of game is niche and I enjoy them, I don't know maybe I'm still searching for SWG? But if the game's development it destined to just become an amalgamation of the 'most popular' design path via polls then I do see a bad ending in store. If all devs followed that method we would all end up playing WoW.
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The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
i'll go this far as to say SWG was a fun sandbox...you were given alot up front to do. there was something < jedi> to strive for..a goal you could take any path to maybe reach.. xyson isn't a graphically appealing game, there are some art assets that arent rendered correctly. the sim aspects of the game ( terraforming) is very basic, and the end results look like cheap log cabins and mud huts. yes I know postapocalyptical etc but still.. theres a good community tho and thats what kept swg alive. i preoorderd so I'm sticking around to see where things start to go.. personally the light player base could be aconcer seeing the mmos coming out soon attrition might be a huge issue
so say we all
I will agree 100% with Sionide on this point. This game is marketed as a "Player Driven Sandbox MMO". If the company came out and began to give strict rulings and took away the vaguarities about the future, they would be removing the "Player Driven" part from what their game is supposed to be. As a company, you can never predict what is going to conspire in your game, this is especially true in a sandbox game where the players choices are what shape the game itself. I think in this instance, vagueness and uncertanty of the future of the game mechanics is exactly what the company should be shooting for. After all, we are supposed to be building a new world, not working within a previously set framework.
"Question everything, even the existence of a god"
See there are always two ways of looking at things and for me i could have looked at it as wasting 6 months not knowing quite where it will go if it doesnt work out or i can look at it as wow 6 months down the road it ended up like this going, through bizarre stages both good and bad. See the game is evolving as time goes on and i have a feeling there will be high points and low points throughout an indefinate journey we call Xsyon. You said it your self that the money is not the problem its more of wasted time in the long run. An indefinate experience with little set rules seems like something to invest a couple bucks into if it turns out a failure a 6 months down the road so what you probably had an experience unlike many other mmos you wasted a few months here and there on throughout your 14 years of mmos. This game has a seemingly slow rate of developing but with really no boundaries as to where it will go so if there is going to be a game that last this should be it.
the biggest part of running an empire isnt even the game mechanic to be honest. If you havent done it, I would suggest try running a zerg of any kind first because its a pain in the..
That said, I agree with others, its good advice to never assume a developer is going to do what they say. At best you can get a general feel for direction and overall game phiolosphy but will feature X ever happen, you can never be for sure.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
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I agree and disagree.
Player-driven can mean two different things. In a game like Uncharted Waters Online, players could control a town, and clear Pirates from oceans making them turn "safe" (No PvP activity allowed). Those were in-game mechanics that could be controlled by the players and affected the game world.
Having polls on a forum outside of the game to implement ideas is not the same. Eventually when the poll's done, the idea becomes carved in stone as part of the game. Now the 40% or so who didn't like that idea are stuck with it as the game they thought they were going to be playing changed uder their feet. It only takes that happeneing a couple times for people to start leaving.
I heard this reference once before in relation to religion and fate, but let me use it in the MMO area as well. A well-crafted MMO shoudl be like a bottle flowing down a river. You have the choice of where you go and what you do within that bottle, but it will always still flow downstream regardless of your actions. In an MMO, the devs should set a clearly defined path or structure for the game and then give people the freedom to move around within that structure.
You (the plyaer) should always know that certain actions will produce certain results while others might be a gamble. Take the PvP aspect for instance: What if people who devoted the last months to crafting suddenly heard that PvP will now be open and free-for-all. All the skills and time they devoted to crating woudl be wasted and their buildings destroyed since they invest nothing in their combat ability.
On the flip-side, what if epople who customized themselves to be PvP machines learned that in 6 months, PvP would no longer exist, or woudl only be on one server? Chaning servers means changing worlds, leaivng friends nad leaving everything you've come to know about the game.
As I said, having a clearly defined structure is essential, but doesn't automatically have to take away from the "player-drive sand box" experience.
I dont agree. I mean that is a fine approach for some games but i rather like the idea of an MMO that is fulid as creativity and simply because a dev had an idea a year ago doesnt mean he has to stick to it. He should be able to move and flow with the community and the code. its playing and creating a game at the same time and its a brilliant form of play/creativity.
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The problem is the time that is going to be required to get this game into a full and launch ready state. They are currently stuggling to get theri beta prelude part of the game launch ready. A majority of crafted items have no function. Its not going to take very long for the PVE crowd to get tired of making baskets and structures that serve no purpose...2 months of gametime for a sub right now will probably be long enough for most.
The problem also is in the game itself, the engin and servers are NOT designed for adding new territory, something they need to do to get the rest of the game rolling. Right now its a tiny map and they are having issues as it is. They have stated it will be difficult too add more territory in order to get to their tribal wars part of the game.
Also there is the community which is cannabalizing itself. PVE crowd vs PVP crowd. The company seems to be taking a route to satisfy their pve community, by restricting player choice, adding punishments for paths chosen, and offering ways to nullify gameplay for those who take a pve route.
The timeframe of getting the game to full, is their tribal warfare expansion (an expansion into a full game). They state 6-9 months, however we all know that is a VERY generous timeframe given the amount of issues and pushbacks needed to get there beta to launch ready...which it isnt yet.
I think a vast majority of people who are signed up, are going to sit back and wait after their two months are up, since its going to be close to a year before the rest of the game is added, and as i said, a majority of the prelude beta items have no use, other than visual.
Can a game survive that long with an already tiny community? Will the developers actually allow for a player driven sandbox? Or will they follow though punishing players who choose a certain path? Will they allow some players to choose a path that nullifies any pvp options in the tribal warfare? Will there even be any evil tribes in which to war against, given their discussion on stat and skill loss upon death for evil players?
Look this games a great idea at the heart of it, but the developers seem to be tightly bound to the part of the community that doesnt want it to be a sandbox.
So given this launch attempt goes smoothly, expect 6-9 months (more like 9-14 months realisticly) of crafting stuff just to look at it. and exploring a tiny map. And look forward to a tribal warfare expansion that no one will war in, given they activly try to restric evil aligned players and tribes.
The more i hear from the community and the developers the less this game looks like a sandbox. Terraforming can only go so far...
You can go as far back as the MUDs in the 90's but not a single MMO that's made even a hint of success has folowed that model. Even games like UO and EVE have rules and structure which were defined prior to launch. People could customze their game to things like houses, companies and PvP situations, but not entirely re-write the game for their own needs.
I won't argue that it isn't brilliant for cretivity, but it's piss-poor for business. People like to know what they're getting in to from the start, not have it unveiled 8 months down the road. Anyone "on the fence" about the game might not choose to spend money on it if they don't have enough information or guarantees about it ahead of time. (Which was the perspective of the OP I think)
Other people who are hoping it will get better, or see it as a carrot dangling in a string in front of them, might log in one day and find that "carrot" turned into an "lemon" and lose their will to play it.
Still, other people might take the approach you mention and think it's a good change... until they're on the minority end of a vote/side/opinion and suddenly the game they signed up for and built their entire experience around isn't the same game anymore.
What if, two years from now, so many people voted and suggested so many changes that the game became a smaller version of WoW? Where they voted to remove things like PvP, housing, terraforming, etc. and introduce more linear gameplay involving quests, mobs and raids. Would you honestly till play it?
Your definition for succes is what? Achieving an arbitrary subscription number? "Beating" another game you like in subscriptions?
Darkfall did fine, as i understand, they were able to afford a new corporate headquarters and a seperate animation studio...if thats a failure, im not sure what a success is.
Darkfall only had combat, all people had to do was gank one another and troll chat.
Xyson was suppose to offer more, however it doesnt, it offers less. No reason for combat (givent hey follow though with restrictions and penalties) no reason to craft...why craft armor, i can kill npc mobs naked and unarmed seconds after character creation, and they are VERY rare in game....why make armor for the same reason. No structure currently has ANY purpose, and if they follow through with the no pvp option....they will have no purpose for good.
So what the hell are you suppose to do in the game for the next 12 months? Collect stuff to have it, craft stuff just to craft it, terraform your tibal camp to look diffrent...thats it, for at least a year.
I can run around killing people, as its the ONLY use of a combat character...untill they add in penalties and nerfs for people who choose to do so.
So when this tribal warfare comes on line in about a year....who the hell is going to be warring? All but the largest tribes will opt for permanant saftey...out the door goes any use for defensive structures and defensive terraforming....Who will be an evil aligned tribe if they know that their attackers can take away stats and skills via death, yet have no recourse as good aligned players wont have such penalties..
Id log in now, and play, but i think were on our 4th wipe in 24 hours, not counting the rollabacks that happen every hour or so (rollbacks that selectivly roolback items like starter preorder weapons causing you the need to reroll, yet not rolling back some tools i looted 3min before the crash)
Hell if people didnt rage at me in whispers over killing them and looting only their pants, i would be bored with that already. You should see how these people react like 10 year olds over losing something so trivial.
Im watching with my own eyes a potentially great sandbox go down the tubes, and its horrifying.
let's wait and let the game launch before we start more sky is falling posts.
I like Darkfall and they allow themselves to be creative and change ideas based on players reaction.
I have never had any intrest in WoW whatsoever so I dont know if they do that or not.
So with that...
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Are we talking about the "beta" prelude launch that has been attempted to be launched several time since august or are we talking about launching the whole game, wich is at least a year away?
Just so were clear, i AM a Xsyon supporter, i chose not to get my refund when they were handing them out.
I may regret that soon, but the choice was made and ill stick with it untill my 2 months is up...then ill either watch and wait for tribal warfare, or ill just move on. Ill move on if the game turns out to not be a sandbox but a crafter/real life sim game.
If i wanted that id go play Wurm. And if i wanted a combat only pvp gankfest id go back to DF, but i dont. I want a real sandbox with player driven rules, in a high sand content world, where i have the ability to do other things besides pvp.
just out of curiousity what do you want to do other than pvp. Quite frankly the crafting you seem to belittle as lesser to the pvp in this game and you havent really shown any interest in anything other than a tribal warfare system that isnt going to be out till a year into the game. I am not sure what the sand is that you are looking for do want like the ability to pick your nose or what? You say you want to have more options than pvp but you dont seem to like the sand in the game so how about you just dont play it. Get your 40 bucks back and go wait for something else with what you want in a game. The pvp is your main interest so how about you go play darkfall for a while until the revamping of the combat system which is months away and wait for a more set in stone ruling on how pvp is going to work.
I think anyone who would join xyson right now who doesnt like crafting would be completely insane.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
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I joined for that reason ffa pvp and full loot, but also sand in a sandbox, however, nothing decays, nothing has any use that i craft other than visual. So...ok ill go pvp....untill im learning that pvp isnt what this game is going to be about, or tolerated by the develoeprs or community.
So what are we left with exactly? A misleading game?