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Skill Based vs. Level Based games
admriker444
Member Posts: 1,526
After the sudden switch by SWG from a skill based game to a level based one I was wondering what everyone thinks of each. And before the flames come in, yes "technically" SWG already had levels, however there wasnt any damage multiplier in place. Therefore it wasnt a level based game in the real sense of the word.
Anyway, it seems to me there are two camps on the issue.
Camp 1 is the hardcore players who put serious time in the game. They tend to prefer a skill based game that rewards your time and effort.
Camp 2 are the casual players and younger players. They prefer a level based game where everyone is pretty much equal (or can be a in very short amount of time). They want instant gratification with little effort put in. They want jedi handed to them, They want to be equal to other players, regardless of time put in. They justify their reasons because they cant put in the same amount of time (or want to).
Yes, I am obviously a skill-based fan. Even if I wasnt a Jedi, I still would prefer skill based games. It gives me a reason to play a game for 2 years. With SWG i stuck it out knowing I could actually improve my character with better gear, better loot, skill tapes, all in the end meant I was truly better than the next guy.
However, in a game like WoW gear really doesnt matter. Sure it can have a very small effect in pvp if both players are the same level. However for most situations and all PvE, every single item and gear in a level based game is pointless. I will be no more effective with my 500 gold epic wand than another player with a 20 silver wand. So in essence why play longer after you've reached end-game ? Whats there to strive for if one cant improve themselves ?
For developers and the bean counters, its an obvious choice to choose a level based game. Its faster and cheaper to code in a simple level system with a damage multipier. A skill based game must have coding for each mob which can mean higher costs and time. So in essence, a level based game is a ford pinto and the skill based game is a mercedes benz.
Hopefully, in the future more skill based games will come out. I see them as the superior choice. Also hopefully us consumers wont let game developers "dumb" down games like they tend to do with other products to reach a larger audience.
For example, HDTV is something manufacturers had to dumb down to get a wider audience. Sony and friends realize that only a small % of buyers will care if a set is true HDTV 1920X1080. Therefore they start cheapening sets to 1280x760 or worse. However all the consumer sees is a plasma set that now only costs $3,000 instead of $7,000. Most consumers arent smart enough to realize they're buying a lesser quality product. They just think prices have come down.
So if we all accept level based games, in essence we are accepting lower quality games. No developer is going to ever make a quality skill based game. And my prediction (in a previous post that was scoffed at) that games will be developed for a quick buck (see WoW) and have no long-term appeal will come true.
Comments
It's been my experience that equipment is the singlemost important factor in WoW character strength. If you take a level 60 rogue, warrior, druid, whatever, equipped with green gear and put them in a fight with even a lesser-skilled player using a character of identical class and level wearing top instance gear, that character in green gear will be reduced to a messy smear in the dirt in seconds.
I'd also argue that there's only so much you can do in SWG to improve yourself once you've mastered your chosen professions. Sure, you can get skilltapes, but your actual character is done growing very early in the game. The "level-up" stage of SWG is extremely short, which leaves a lot of achiever-types with little to do other than kill the same NPCs over and over and over hoping for a lucky drop.
In World of Warcraft, they at least have the endgame raids and the pvp rewards. Granted, I don't really consider either of those solutions to be enjoyable, but that's only because I'm more of a solo pve player.
As far as level-based games being inferior to skill-based games on principal, I'd have to disagree. Some people like those quantifiable mini-goals. When you go to your day job where you accomplish nothing of any significance all day long, it's nice to come home, spend 30 to 60 minutes running quests or playing whack-a-mole, then getting rewarded with a "ding" sound and seeing an immediate improvement in your abilities. Sure, those achievements are likely of even less significance than anything you did at work, but it feels pleasant none-the-less.
Level-based games don't exist simply because game developers are lazy. They exist because people like them. Go back and look at the Diku MUD codebase. It's level-based. ROM code? Level-based. RoT code? Level-based. Envy? Merc? Smaug? Level-based, level-based, level-based. That's no accident. Now look at Saga of Ryzom. It's highly rated here and has a skill-based system that makes SWG's look like strained peas (you can actually edit and modify all of your skills with advantages and disadvantages), yet it has such a small playerbase that Nevrax was forced to shut down their North American server.
None of this means that level-based games are "better" than skill-based games. It's all just opinion. Each type of game has its own charm, its own advantages and disadvantages, and each type has and will continue to have titles in its respective library of games. Realize, however, that game design is big business, and that means designing titles that appeal to the widest possible percentage of the marketplace. Given the sheer volume of level-based games, it's pretty easy to see where that percentage lies. When you're spending millions of dollars on development, you don't just hope people are going to like what you do, you hire consultants and make use of focus groups. Believe me, if skill-based games were more popular, you'd see a whole heck of a lot more of them.
Cheers.
I do not see it as being Levels vs Skills. I prefer Skill system myself because I dislike the concept of a single player being capable of everything with one ore even a small number of characters. It forces a dependency on other players which is the heart of a MMOG. Though skills may have a lower cap the more focused individual will make their character into something they want with more care. Besides a normal character that was meant to be a Fighter should not have the same stats or capabilities of Someone who wants to be a Magic user. Heh Most console RPGs lately tend to lean towards everyone having every capability rather than each character being specialized.
Skills help to set each character apart more so than following a Class or Level template. A warrior who chooses finesse would not be as strong as a warrior who Just hits hard but would typically strike more often. Skills allow for this difference without the Developers having to conceive every possible combination that would make the player's happy.
Levels have always been a part of RPGs, it's just up to each game how they're handled. And with no levels, how do you distinguish a new player from a 2-year veteran? As for equipment, of course it won't really matter what you're using if you only got for mismatched expensive stuff, like most WoW players do (ooo purple, I gotta have it even if +1% spell crit chance dont mean crap to my warrior
).
I also think of levels as a good way to find others to group with. You can easily spot a player that can contribute by looking at his class and level... take that away and I'd imagine finding a suitable addition to your group would be a royal pain. In big MMO communities with shifting alliances, you need a 'tag' to distinguish new players from experienced players, unless you form static groups with your friends at char creation.
Saying that levels are the cheap way out is just a cheap excuse in itself, IMO. Most level based games feature some skill/talent customisation too, it's just that leveling up skills become very easy when you gain new levels... and that could use some work.
Ultima Online was by far the best game to handle the skill/level system in my opinion. It seemed like you could group with other players at any skill # and still be able to help. Problem with games that have levels is that you pretty much have to hang with your own level.
Any MMORPG out there or coming out can copy and paste UO's skill list(Pre-Trammel) and will be much better for it.
Carebear
*WoW = Level 60 Priest*
*EQ2 = Level 25 Druid*
My youtube MMO gaming channel
Hi, actually i'm a young, casual player (because I have school class and dial-up connection) and I live in Brasil. So I don't play many of the paid games, but I'm starting to play WoW, and here goes my thinking...
Skill games are at all a little complicated in the beggining, and too easy when you have high scores of everything, and Level-based ones are, as you said, too equal and without action in PvP when at same levels. So I thought: "why don't they make a MMORPG with both bases?" , and there's the answer: cause they don't have sufficient imagination and don't hear ideas from people like me. Here in Brasil I met many people wanting to help me create a high image definition, multifeatured MMORPG with inimaginable playability like UO, featured with constant monsters and maps actualization, and non-level and skill limits.
This is my idea of Advanced MMORPGs, and I swear with my life, in the future, you WILL hear of Thalles de S. Rodrigues.
Have a nice rest of life...
Sentretten, Tenttroth Island
For what it's worth, Asheron's Call has had a skill-based + level-based engine for around six years, so it has in fact been done (and done well, for the most part). As to why more haven't done it, one can only guess. Even if I had some problems with the magic system in the game (like the perpetual state of buffing everyone seemed stuck in and the sheer volume of bots and exploits), it's still among the best games I've played. Heck, who am I kidding, I played it for four years and it wasn't even my first MMO. It is the best I've played.
Skills for solo.
Class & levels for grouping.
Build 2 differents systems that trivially help each other progress slightly faster(so instead of taking 100% of the time and 100% again, you take like 100% and 80%) and make you more efficient in the system that is less developped until you bypass the more developped on your character sheet, so you have a slight XP bonus and combat bonus on whatever aspect is under developped.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren