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PvP Ruined the RP
Ataaka
Member UncommonPosts: 213
Somewhere, in the middle of the evolution of MMOGs, we lost entire our footing in RPGs. In 1999, thereabouts, Asheron's Call was my place to graphically interact with players from around the world. It was built upon an RP foundation where people hoisted Monarchs (Guild Leaders) to the heavens.
We had more than enough to do trying to conquer the world, and our guild was reknown for leading the way. We did not speak middle-english or gutter-speak... we interacted with each other in such a way, our time together was meaningful. We had professional cooks and alchemists. There were mages, warriors and healers. Our leaders taught us how to traverse the land and to find glory in dispatching the most evil and treacherous monsters known.
We would sit on hillsides and share booty. No one wanted for anything... if they did, it was quickly given from the guild's horde. People shared stories too. There were those who always put themselves in grave danger, only to come back with rare loot and long tales.
We were Rp'ers in every sense of the word, but a dark veil covered the land which turned Asheron's Call toward the funnel of death. They decided to allow PvP on the normal world. It was an evil no one could stop, but we tried to argue with it's creator...we lost. Soon, those Monarchs we held high began to delve into the PvP Realm. The guilds folded, the land dried up and all that remained was chaos.
There was a world dedicated to PvP in Asheron's Call named DarkTide. After changing all worlds to PvP capable, it died as well.
PvP ruined the RP.
I have no problems with PvP, PvP worlds or PvP games...I just don't need it in everyone I play.
Comments
PvP. Turning RPGs into Streetfighter Spinoffs since 2004.
Hmm... Sounds like a failpic headliner.
"I have no problems with PvP, PvP worlds or PvP games...I just don't need it in everyone I play." O,k, then do not play any game that is PvP additive.. Pretty easy to comprehend huh?
Hmm, i don't know if u r talking specifically about asheron or in general.
I believe pvp if well delivered, i mean non instanced but outdoors pvp ,it could boost rp due to various and many reasons.The narrow minded will talk about ganging and stuff but im talking about the whole picture behind it.
Living in a perillous , ever evolving world,where making friends and enemies could be crutial concerning the survival of your toon,adventuring in the wilds,diplomacy rising in ranks options for players,deep crafting, options to build houses ,shops,vilaages for guilds...all these things can be boosted with pvp . Don't ask me what game is this ,obviously it's not made yet, or at least it's not made properly and well made yet. This is all hypothetical conversation ofc. But just for the record the best fun i had in wow,was at vanilla tims when i was playing in an rp-pvp realm named defias brotherhood. Pvp was greately boosted by rp and the opposition beetween horde and allies took another dimension through rp. Ofc wow doesn't have a proper etting for rp. Lack of tools for rp just few ridiculous emotions but the whole fewling playing in such a realm wa sgreat due to the good community made mostly by good rp-iers. After all rp community is what rp is mostly what rp is all about.
Its not PVP that ruined roleplay , its that roleplayers cannot stand defeat .
There is a huge difference , ego is the same on both and still the same on all.
If you are good or want to be so godlike as you roleplay , then back it up with action .
Thats what pvp brought , most of the most skillfull oratory failed in that perspectief .
Same way raiding and roleplay sometimes conflicts , there is time for roleplay , there is time for raiding .
There isn´t time for both , when you are wiping all night for the drama king or queen who keep causing wipes.
To tell intrigated stories about how she was distracted from moving out of the fire for 10th time.
Without half the people getting irritated .
Sorry you want to be good fighter , proof it develop pvp skills or dueling skills .
You want to be a good raider dont stand in the fire and do your job .
You want to be a good roleplayer , learn to roleplay and not just powergame or bent the rules .
Cause in the first 2 you can´t as a gamer . in the last yes ..
Thats why a lot of roleplayer just want to roleplay . and most let them be .
Easy peasy PvE ruined PvP & RP.
Why try and pit the same thing against one another?
Cause easy peasy PVE is what majority wants .
LOOT FOR FREE is what majority want .
Only a minority wants to really work and suffer , and see things as a challenge.
Sorry thats the way life is , if there is a click get a free epix every week , and a click get gruelsome dungeon you need to compete for the same EPIC with only difference text i earned it .
Majority of People would click on get the free epix every week . and complain on the forum its insulting that i get a item thats easy mode !!
Kind of funny the lack of PvP is what ruined RP on catskills UO. Before tremmal all the RP guilds were forced to work together. The created great world because it did not let people go off into their own little bubbles. It made a real RP world, not something where everyone had their little fantasy zones that did not interconnect.
RP has declined but blaming PvP is so wrong. Making MMO's for a mass market and console gamers were the two main reasons. We have seen a flood of players come in who came from a shoot erm up background and MMO companies deciding RP is a minority activity in their game.
PvP has made RP quite strong in the past, DAOC RP thrived on the RvR.
I wouldnt say that pvp ruined rpgs but i think that a lot of people got to into pvp and instead of people focusing on other things they would think pvp was the only way to be truly "successful" what other way could you show that you were truly better than another person other than just by beating them in a fight? That was the mind set that too many people got into, if I want to be good I dont need to be able to beat the bosses i just need to be able to beat all the other players. I think too many people got into that mindset and instead of rpgs being how they were -people vs computer creatures pretty much to people vs people vs computer creatures.
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i think pvp never ruin any rp games... pvp is a different kind of genre and pvp is a fast phase game play rather than rp games. RP games takes time and lots of thinking rather than pvp. I always do pvp games as my past time so that i would not be fed up playing rp games all the time, usually pvp is just a filer of time for me.
I didn't know that pvp ruined rp games. hehehe maybe because I see pvp as a different type of genre. I only play pvp for challenge and time filler because it is fast phase game. Sometimes I get bored of playing long time doing the rp stuff. To break the time I do pvp games. Challenging other persons really is fun and its lot of fun when your wining. after those fun of challenging other player, I always go back and play my usual rp stuff. That's why I don't think that pvp ruined rp, its just the matter of how you play each game.
I think PVP was made to develop the player’s mindset to be more creative and be more aggressive in the game. Logic if you want to win in the game you have to do increase everything to win and to be in the top. PVP is really fun because it challenge you to do better. anyone in the game wants to be the winner not the looser. They will do everything just be in the top.
I'm not a pvp'er and I admit the people who take it too far ruin it for a lot of people but I can't accept an MMORPG as a world simulator in which negative player interaction is prohibited entirely. The fault is with the devs/designers who don't create a pvp system that works for a large diverse grouping of people.
MMO's should not devolve into what essentially become deathmatch maps, but neither should they be Barney & Friends.
It always makes my day to do PVP almost everyday. It has a sense of satisfaction whenever I killed another character, this means that what I created character is stronger than others or maybe I have better stats distribution than others. This made me feel that I am superior than others. RP is just a leveling purpose for me to grind and make my character strong, but I need more basis to know that my character is perfectly build. Do PVP is the best thing to do at the most.
For me, the PvP-centric nature of a game CAN ruin RP, but doesn't necessarily. That being said, it's not the PvP at all, its the asshats is can attract.
The total LACK of PvP is what ruins RP 100% of the time for me. In RP, just as in life, there are some situations that words can only take you so far in. Someone RP robs/wrongs you and won't make it right? Did you get an RP ultimate betrayal from an ally? Are your RP people subjugated by some oppresive force?
Sometimes PvP is the last recourse of RP. Without it, it all seems two dimensional to me. If you can't attack/kill me and I can't do the same to you when we are at odds to the point of no reconciliation (in an RP sense), I see a dead end.
I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.
Do you think in the world of RP there no such thing as boredom when you do quest and grind all the time. I think theres always a two way in playing games. PVP is one way to have fun after doing this leveling and stuff. Without this an rp game will fade eventually due to different kinds of factors. Its good to rest for awhile in doing rp and enjoy the rest of the day doing pvp.
PVP never ruined rp and it will never be. Some people need some breathing space and pvp is one of them. For people who likes pvp like me there is one thing I learned from it. Winning is winning, cheap kill or not it doesn't matter, use everything at your disposal to win the match. every damage counts even the chip damage and most of all enjoy the game!
Popularity ruined the RP.
Back in the day, circa 1999 as you mentioned, the MMO community was small, small enough, in combination with game design at the time, that community was neccessary. Relationships and bonds had to be formed or you would not be able to play, plain and simple. Now that the MMO genre has blossomed into what it is today, there are enough people that you can afford to tick Joe and Jim off and not really feel the heat .
It's like MMOs moved from Arlen, Texas to Los Angeles.
Don't blame pvp because i belieave that pvp did'nt ruin the game and like most games pvp is fun for it dynamic and the player needs to think a bit hard on strategy unlike pvm and moreover pvp is an alternative to the endless levelling or PVM. just my 2¢
PvP is one of the features, that I would call absolute necessity for any actual, proper MMORPG. In ideal MMORPG world you don't even have mobs, but people would roleplay "mobs". Of course that doesn't mean walking a circle in one spot and waiting to be killed by another player... that's just due to limited AI of most games.
Main problem are people's desires, they want to be part of the most dominant force, gank noobs, grind only the most rewarding PvP etc, etc... BUT, that's where the game design comes into the picture. There needs to be limitations and ways of encouraging to people to go to different places. Nobody ganks you in the city, if there's huge trade offs for that. Punishment could for example huge standing loss and a bounty on the murders head for a week in major cities. Then the murders need to hang out in more hidden areas, wherereas you can walk freely in the big cities... of course you never know for sure what happens, but hey, that's the fun part of games.
Today's MMORPG's are so damn predictable and SAFE for the "wrongdoers" though, and this kind of rules aren't applies to them, as 1) it's faster and cost efficient to develop crappy MMORPG's and 2) MMORPG's are available to much bigger audience, people who don't even care for the -RPG- part of the game and want easy and fast paced gaming experience
It's all about reward and punishment. If people are messing around or grinding, punish (especially in form of LIMITING their choices) them, but if they are working in a way, that is beneficial for the roleplaying part of the game, reward them. It has all to be balanced, and developers shouldn't be afraid to make changes. It annoys me, as many great changes can be done with fairly simple value changes, I feel.
If the system is well designed, it shouldn't mean the game is enjoyable only to 40-year-old basement dwelling RPG whores, who like playing a dainty fairy in a game. You can still be that coldblooded killer. Just don't expect to be most popular guy around, and except to watch you steps everywhere you go. Sloppy game design, that's all.
PVP most surely did not ruin RP/MMOs. There are 2 things that ruin MMOs, by definition:
1) Instanced Dungeons (PVE instances)
2) Battlegrounds (PVP instances)
Anybody that enjoys instances over open world might as well hit the CoD lobbies. Instances are by defintion not MMOs.
Open world PVP is by far the most consistent with MMO spirit, followed by open world PVE. Instances are a glorified 5 person game that might as well be Baldur's gate with your buddies...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Well, if you view MMORPG's as a money making enterprise within a social darwinistic market, then wouldn't it be just as appropriate to say that roleplayers killed the RP because they made the hobby so estoric as to be unappealing to the majority of players? Thus, they became a niche market group barely worth the financial expense of catering too by developers...
Yeah. I roleplay in some games where there is a good community for it.
Roleplay is not about being an epic warlord, and I don't believe PvP ruined it either. PvP can actually enhance roleplay, but the problem is the people taking part. Kid's these days have no idea what roleplay is, and they most likely never will and that my friends is the downfall. It wasn't passed on to other people, or in a way "taught" properly.
This is exactly it. RP used to be a niche corner where players and gamers could go for immersion. But as mass appeal had games catoring to the average video gamer things became complicated. Have you ever played a long D&D session? Can you imagine if one or two players joined the game midway and had to be taught the fundimentals while continually making fun? WoW did this. Even in DAoC we had OOC rules that people tended to use.
I find this issue in newer games, people make statements like: "No, we're only IC in /say and /shout" but not in any of the other channels. That is the unspoken rule." You see, because there was no enforcement of RP on one game that has mass appeal, it set a horrible standard people take into their newer games, even on RP servers. It set a poor precidence. Now, even on RP servers, there are very few people Rping and every channel is full of people talking about GW2. The only exception I can find is LOTRO, which doesn't even have an official rp server.
Yes they will. In every game since UO you just can't stop that, and some griefers are great on inventing new ways to kill people.
If you want no ganking in the cities you must make it impossible. And that of course takes away some of the freedom.
The only way to remove griefing is to do like GW2 and have certain separate zones with PvP, and we can all discuss if that is fun or not but it do work.
The real problem with MMO PvP as I see it is that gear and level matters far too much in MMOs. In FPS games it matters little and in FPS most players play PvP instead of PvE. In MMOs on the other hand do the majority of players still play PvE.
I think if we want a PvP focused MMO with 1 million+ players they will have to rethink the mechanics a lot. And then I am talking about open PvP games of course, not games like Guildwars.
I don't really buy that PvE is more fun than PvP in the core, if so games like counter strike would never have been so popular. And I don't advocate that we should turn all PvP MMOs into MMOFPS games. But we do need to reinvent the wheel with mechanics specifically made for PvP. Most MMOs today are just based on holy triad mechanics that really are made for PvE from the start, and since at least 75% of the MMO players mainly or only play PvE I would say those mechanics isn't good enough for PvP.
Just claiming that all PvE players are care bears is silly, if the games offer better PvP it will attract more players.