I don't play WoW, so I can't answer the really important question here. Has Blizzard been able to stop most of the illegal gold selling and gold farming? If they have stopped more than 60% of it then there is no reason they have to sell gold. If they can't stop more than 60% of it then it would seem that it would make more sense to "legalize" it and take out the middle man. At least with Blizzard selling it they could control it and prevent the numerous other problems that accompany illegal gold selling.
This would screw up the value of gold so bad... it would probably make gold next to valueless in game because all the people who are loose with their money would buy tons of gold, while people who choose to make gold in game would struggle to ever have enough to keep up with the inflation of everything. It would pretty much just make WoW a buy to win game.
I think it could potentially destroy the game if they did it on all servers, but if they wanted to pull an SOE with specific servers for this sort of thing then go for it.
I don't think it would be a good move for them... gold farmers wouldn't be the only ones cancelling their accounts.
I think it could work for a game that is specifically designed for it but not with WoW.
This is not an ethics thread, but a business one. Please keep your opinion of "It is wrong to sell Gold!" out of this thread, and try to look at it from a business perspective.
I do not know the actual numbers, but it is quite obvious that WoW Gold Farmers make quite a bit of money. This means that a good number of players buy gold, and some spend a lot of money to do so. There are hundreds of WoW gold websites, and most of them you can actually get gold from (even the scam ones, hahahaha...) Some of the more popular and successful ones sell game currency across all MMORPG's, however, WoW is a big one.
Yet if Blizzard began to sell Gold itself, especially at a competitive price (or even higher) the business of gold farmers would be hurt quite a lot. Hackers would die down even, and gold farmers and spammers would disappear. Now, Blizzard would in turn LOSE subscriptions as the gold farmers stopped paying for their accounts. This must be taken into consideration. However, the number of gold buyers would drastically increase, as it would become legal and much much safer.
Is Blizzard missing out on billions more by not selling gold? Granted they have no reason to take such a risk (it might cause WoW to go under, so it will never happen, as there is no reason to risk something that brings in your company billions annually). But are they missing out?
Another costly and profitable service hundreds of websites have is Power Leveling. In this realm of business thought, Blizzard could then sell Power Leveling in a nearly unlimited number of ways. Once again, here we go.
Blizzard already has a cash shop which they make millions on every year. A gold shop on top of that? Oh goodness, they would make a lot of money. However, their subsriber base is what is most profitable.
Finally, put back on your moral caps and ethic robes and discuss this as well: Korean and Chinese gold farmers would be run out of business, in exchange for Blizzard employees. Certainly Blizzard deserves the revenue more than these pirates, thieves, and legitimate businesses, right? Or Wrong?
Discuss.
Of course they lose out...They only have 12 millions subs a month. Man...they lose a crap-load of money. Is this post even legit? It is a joke. Why not make a post that says 'is water wet?"
lol great reply.
They make billions and some still discus if they need more more money lol, business perspective you mean GREED perspective:P
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
The money Blizzard already makes? No, they're not. If they did start selling gold, they'd probably lose sufficient players disgusted by the move that they'd be back where they were, financially.
Why would they sell currency on their own when they just can leave it at others paying them to be able to sell currency?
They both can pretend to have a "fair RMT free game" with "fair RMT free ingame market" and at the same time profit from RMT and allmost any negative view about RMT is not even directed at them.
The game hasnt turned to be massively overinstanced just for the player. A player who wont even see and notice all the goldfarmer/bots because they mostly hide in dungeons where they are less requently banned or not at all, will hardly start to complain about annyoing goldfarmer/bots.
They can and do even go as far as exploiting even the goldseller themself with big banwaves before i.e. expansion to increase both boxsales as well as subscriptions revenues (and records) in situations where the demand is high for RMT.
They would earn more by selling the gold themselves.
Many people don't buy gold of fear of getting their account banned or getting tricked.
And if they already sell stuff like mounts I would say that anyone who is upset by RMT have already left the game a long time ago, durng the "my little pony" incident.
It would kill of farming, goldspamm and account hacking.
I think this is just a matter of time, when they started to sell stuff in a RMT shop they slowly opens up for these kind of things. And this doesn't just go for Wow but for all other P2P games with RMTs as well.
But it frankly does not upset me more than the regular RMT shops, at least will the playfield be even with official goldselling.
Um, I think you are mistaken. Hardcores can get their own gold very easily, and have no problem in that department. The people who buy gold are the casual gamers who don't want to waste their time grinding for gold. When someone decides to buy gold, it's because they are casual, not hardcore. It's because their time isn't worth to waste on gold, because they only have time to play. Casuals are the source of gold farming sales, certainly not the hardcore.
Do you have any data that supports that?
The data that I have seen has been quite the opposite.
In Battle of the Immortals you can seedata on the players that subscribed using your referral number. Consistently, the people with the highest monetary investment are the people who travel fastest and highest up the leveling scale.
Browser-based MMOs know that they get very little from their casual players, so several have even instituted early quests that require a spending anywhere from 2-10 dollars on items/resources to progress along the chain. One clear example of the difference in investment was in EmpireCraft's first contest - each person that spends 600 USD or more in the four-week period of the contest gets an epic hero. No steps were needed to enter. Just spend and everything is tallied at the end. In the end, the winners were all the highest level players with the largest guilds in the game. (Edit for clarity: What these players were already the top players prior to the contest starting)
In Ultima Online, when Age of Shadows came out, the biggest argument against the artifacts (epic items) were that the only people that could get them where the hardcores that farmed them and the hardcores that bought them from the ones farming them. Casual players were not spending money on these things, especially the casual PVPers who simply stopped fighitng "Arties" - characters covered in eBayed artifiacts. - altogether.
In EVE Online, the eccentric deeply-entrenched veterans are the ones who spend insane amounts of money, not the casuals. And by insane, I mean there have been people that have spent a hundred thousand US dollars to outfit mercs just for one war.
In general, though, if K2 Networks' games are any indication of spending in the average F2P MMO, CEO Joshua Hong says they get little, if any, revenue during the first six months and only after that people start to become more invested. The casual gamer often isn't the gamer that is spending 6 months or more in an MMO. The majority of the time that that is the much more invested player, especially with the track record of the last 3-4 years of AAA releases.
Your answer is in the words you use, Emergence. A person who is 'hardcore' about his gaming is going to invest more time, money and resources into it. A casual player is far less likely to be that entrenched in a game that they put excessive or even extra time, money or resources into it. Once they start doing that, well... they really aren't casual anymore.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I definitely see your point about hardcore vs. casuals and what they are willing to spend. If you define an MMO as a hobby (which in a way it is), someone who is heavily into that hobby is willing to spend more money on it than others who are more casual about it.
On the other hand, I noticed a couple of your examples are FFA PvP games, where you HAVE to stay ahead of the competition. If you're going to play those games as a hardcore gamer, you have to be successful against the other hardcore gamers, which means you have to put not only the time into the game, but also the cash resources necessary to keep up with your competition.
Emergence also has a point, however. In a PvE game like WoW, I can see the definition of hardcore as being about someone who either has more time, or at least is willing to devote more time, to playing the game. A casual player is someone who either can't or won't spend those hours. However, everyone wants to be the best, have the best stuff, etc. If a casual doesn't have the time to invest in the game, than that player would be more likely to go ahead and buy what he/she needed to be highly successful in the game.
I'm pretty sure if you could sample WoW's actual "demographics", you would see strong examples of both of these in the game. One the one hand, you would find hardcore players buying up extra gold to help support their guild, twinks, or even advance their max level characters, and you would see a large group of casuals who buy gold to advance themselves as an alternative to spending time they don't have in the game.
As far as blizzard selling gold in their game, I don't see much problem with it. The game is already set up more to keep players playing (and paying) than for anything else. I see them selling gold as just an extension of their current philosophy. I don't mean this necessarily as an insult to blizzard either. Their game is well designed and it was fun (for me, anyway), while it lasted. If they implemented it right, and if they made a commitment (to the game) to not let the gold selling become the point of the game (i.e keep the other ways to advance your character in place, don't let it all be about how much gold the character has), but just a "side job" to earn a little extra money, I think it would be fine. I am a little worried about the fact that a "price war" between Blizzard and the illegal gold sellers could, in fact, drive down the intrinsic in game value of the gold, but the way the game was when I stopped playing, gold wasn't that critical in the first place. Most of the items that were truly great in the game had to be quested/raided for and were BoP, not BoE, so there was only so much you could do for max level characters with gold. Also the point that gold selling is happening anyway, and it hasn't ruined the game, so why not take a little piece of that pie? It would also help with getting rid of the gold sellers, who, for me anyway, are a major immersion killer.
Games like WoW have an economy based off of how long it takes to accumlate in game gold. Specific areas that have too low of a time:gold ratio are cut back so that it balances out better. Introducing a way for players to purchase in game gold damages that ratio, and gold sellers would have to lower prices to compete. If Blizzard undercuts them to a point of not being profitable and forces the gold sellers out, then they would also end up losing money. It is more profitable to keep the time:gold ratio higher for both gold sellers and Blizzard.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I definitely see your point about hardcore vs. casuals and what they are willing to spend. If you define an MMO as a hobby (which in a way it is), someone who is heavily into that hobby is willing to spend more money on it than others who are more casual about it.
On the other hand, I noticed a couple of your examples are FFA PvP games, where you HAVE to stay ahead of the competition. If you're going to play those games as a hardcore gamer, you have to be successful against the other hardcore gamers, which means you have to put not only the time into the game, but also the cash resources necessary to keep up with your competition.
Emergence also has a point, however. In a PvE game like WoW, I can see the definition of hardcore as being about someone who either has more time, or at least is willing to devote more time, to playing the game. A casual player is someone who either can't or won't spend those hours. However, everyone wants to be the best, have the best stuff, etc. If a casual doesn't have the time to invest in the game, than that player would be more likely to go ahead and buy what he/she needed to be highly successful in the game.
I'm pretty sure if you could sample WoW's actual "demographics", you would see strong examples of both of these in the game. One the one hand, you would find hardcore players buying up extra gold to help support their guild, twinks, or even advance their max level characters, and you would see a large group of casuals who buy gold to advance themselves as an alternative to spending time they don't have in the game.
As far as blizzard selling gold in their game, I don't see much problem with it. The game is already set up more to keep players playing (and paying) than for anything else. I see them selling gold as just an extension of their current philosophy. I don't mean this necessarily as an insult to blizzard either. Their game is well designed and it was fun (for me, anyway), while it lasted. If they implemented it right, and if they made a commitment (to the game) to not let the gold selling become the point of the game (i.e keep the other ways to advance your character in place, don't let it all be about how much gold the character has), but just a "side job" to earn a little extra money, I think it would be fine. I am a little worried about the fact that a "price war" between Blizzard and the illegal gold sellers could, in fact, drive down the intrinsic in game value of the gold, but the way the game was when I stopped playing, gold wasn't that critical in the first place. Most of the items that were truly great in the game had to be quested/raided for and were BoP, not BoE, so there was only so much you could do for max level characters with gold. Also the point that gold selling is happening anyway, and it hasn't ruined the game, so why not take a little piece of that pie? It would also help with getting rid of the gold sellers, who, for me anyway, are a major immersion killer.
Very good point. The difference lies in the perception of the gold buying. For example, if Blizzard osld gold and the erception was that it was necessary, would many of those casual players who currently buy gold because they see it a a 'perk' or way to augment their game play still even play WOW, let alone buy game gold. We already know for a fact that the WOW playerbase, casuals included, is very accepting of paying for extras (sparkle pony), but the extra spend in in any hobby is consistently done in the vein of a desire, not a necessity. Once something is a perceived necessity, the casuals and those with a lower investment quickly drop off the list of potential buyers.
To elaborate more on that, right now, when players return to play WOW with their friends, they're usually already paying 30-70 to return and possibly a 50 transfer fee. It makes sense to throw another 20 or so on top of that for some starting capital to twink out the first 30 or so levels. If the company that makes the game sells the game cash, the perception becomes one of necessity - that one needs to also buy game cash to get started as that is the way thr game is designed.
This is why no MMO sells game gold unless it is a server specifically designed for game gold, with the expectation that everyone else is buying it, as well. Puzzle Pirates is an example of that type of a setup.
MMORTS (LOCO, LoL, BattleSwarm, Bloodline Champions), SLGs (Evony, Ikariam, Lords of Ultima, Grepolis), and whatever Facebook games are called (Ravenswood Faire, Mob/Vamp/Wolf Wars, Farmville) are also very good examples of MMOs that establish perception and expectation that money needs to be spent to enjoy the game. I don't normally refer to those examples, though, as that's the fastest way to steer a thread off course into what's an MMO and what isn't.
Right now in WOW, gold is plentiful, and everyone has it or can easily get it - through legal means or otherwise. Blizzard is not about to rock that cradle.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The game has to be designed differently if you're going to sell gold.
I could be wrong, but I think selling gold in WoW would unbalance the game in it's current design.
Right now, you have to spend some of the gold you make on equipment, leveling, and so forth.
You can't just farm gold naked.
And the game is designed for players to make gold, and even give it to each other.
So gold farmers, although adding a monetary transaction to the equation, are not really breaking the game design.
There is also a limit to what they can farm. It takes time, even if they have a forumula to do it efficiently.
Selling gold, IMO, breaks the current game design.
WoW was not designed as a cash shop game, and that's what it becomes if you sell gold.
There is no limit to how much gold can be pumped into the game, and it is not created by killing mobs as the game was designed.
You would take out all the players farming gold, (even if they are gold farmers they are still playing the game), and replace them with a gold shop.
I think that's a different game.
Agreed. Both the appeal and the design would be adversely affected.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The game has to be designed differently if you're going to sell gold.
I could be wrong, but I think selling gold in WoW would unbalance the game in it's current design.
Right now, you have to spend some of the gold you make on equipment, leveling, and so forth.
You can't just farm gold naked.
And the game is designed for players to make gold, and even give it to each other.
So gold farmers, although adding a monetary transaction to the equation, are not really breaking the game design.
There is also a limit to what they can farm. It takes time, even if they have a forumula to do it efficiently.
Selling gold, IMO, breaks the current game design.
WoW was not designed as a cash shop game, and that's what it becomes if you sell gold.
There is no limit to how much gold can be pumped into the game, and it is not created by killing mobs as the game was designed.
You would take out all the players farming gold, (even if they are gold farmers they are still playing the game), and replace them with a gold shop.
I think that's a different game.
Well, people are already selling gold and they hack other players accounts to do it.
Selling gold do mess up the economy but it is already happening and now criminal people tends to earn money on it. Legelize cannab... I mean goldselling.
My point without any sarcasm is that the fact that Blizzard don't sell gold while you need to get it ingame and can transfer it easily means it is the main reason behind account hacking. While this happens in other games as well it is really rare in the rest but happens to a lot of people in Wow.
As I see it there are 2 options: Either do they start to sell gold themselves or they need to change the economy so you don't depend as much on gold. Games where you don't need gold as much like Guildwars have really few goldsellers or hacked accounts. I never even seen a goldseller in game after 4 years of playing it.
or they need to change the economy so you don't depend as much on gold. Games where you don't need gold as much like Guildwars have really few goldsellers or hacked accounts. I never even seen a goldseller in game after 4 years of playing it.
Yeesh. I despise that line of thought. I've heard more than a few people state that using RMT sites to buy gold is justified if the game is too hard. I don't like the idea of coaxing goldbuyers into playing legitimately by changing the game to cater to them.
Let's face it allot of games can make you addicted and if those addicted people could buy stuff with real money you will have a problem at your hand. I see it in allot of F2P games where people pay way more then they can afford.
The real strategy is to get gangster...Let me explain!
blizzard as said might have some very hard hoops to jump through with laws and regulation when it comes to selling gold.
Also the fact they could lose a huge amount of playerbase. It could go either way..It could do really well , or blow up in there faces.
So maybe blizzard plays it safe?.... Maybe they do actually make money off of selling gold. In other words they actually control the gold selling through unknown resources. Kinda like having a private swiss bank account.
To avoid many complications , of coarse they would say . We dont allow gold selling. buying or selling gold can get you banned .
So for the most part they just turn there heads the other way while gold is being sold. Set up false bust . to make it look legit. Now i cant say for sure if this is how it is , but if i were blizzard i would probably do it.
Blizzard maybe just a game company , but money talks. with money comes power.
with power you can get away with anything. just ask OJ.
This is just a personal speculation..In no way or form am i saying that these statements of ilegal activity are being performed by blizzard.
Selling gold is for losers, none who has any control over market really does that.
To sell gold you have to have valuable game assests aviable for gold and virtually unlimited demand for them. That is not the case in WoW.
Game developers do not sell gold, they sell other goods than gold, goods more valuable and important than gold, so that gold farmers cannot compete. Not just because publishers can make the goods out of thin air but also because goldfarmers cannot make them at all.
BTW: Money is not what it used to be, not in game and not in real life. In my childhood money was gold, it is not even worthless paper any more. Game money buys you most things in EvE but very little in most other MMOs and money are used only because they are forced as trade medium not because they are desireable by itself. Selling gold would make this painfully obvious.
Interesting thread. As an anecdote, the only player I knew who bought gold and PLs in WoW was a casual much like Emergence described in one of his posts (and no, it isn't me before anyone asks).
Let's figure out first what we mean when we say 'selling gold'. Is it an RMT shop style idea where the game is free to download and access but past a certain point people have to start forking out or play with limitations? Is it a special subscription-based server that people can do RMT for? Is it only certain items that players pay real money for and then sell on to other players for ingame gold? Or is it running a business on the side that sells gold legitimately for real money? I see some confusion on this in this thread.
If we look at RMT cash shops, we can see this would be an easy way for Blizz to sell an effectively ingame currency for real money. However, would Blizz win out if it did this and pulled the plug entirely on its P2P model? I guess it depends on what restrictions go with it? How would you feel as a player if Blizz suddenly decided that you have to pay to unlock former areas you used to have access to? Or that you have to buy bag slots, bank slots, etc. because now that everyone is no longer a paying customer who you have to start out from scratch? Or that you would have to fork out more money to buy expac-like content because I have noticed that RMT shops tend to charge more for that kind of thing. I am sure that people would fork out money for cosmetic pets, gear, etc., but if their WoW habit got really expensive, they might not want to stick around. If they're serious PvPers they might not want to stick around either if they have to pay to compete and that could destroy the whole aspect of arena fights as we see them now.
A hybrid F2A/P2P model might work out to Blizzard's benefit, but remains to be seen if it works to the benefit of the players.
Looking at keeping some servers RMT and others normal P2P, well as someone already pointed out, that didn't work out so well in EQ2. Since WoW is a competitive game for many, you would effectively have some servers branded as pay-to-win servers, which is not the most attractive reputation a server can have. I doubt that Blizz would gain much, and in effect might lose out especially if they open new servers to accommodate that kind of play (new servers cost money).
Special items sold on for ingame money? Well, I think that could actually work depending on what these items were for. This has worked out in EVE keeping in mind that the PLEX is sold on a player-run market. Maybe something similar could be done in WoW with game-time?
Running a second business on the side? I am not sure how to reply to that one. I guess it would depend on how much Blizzard would advertise it ingame too. If you're getting spammed legitimately all the time to buy their gold, wouldn't you get fed up after a point? To me the goldspammers ruin my game immersion and it's one thing that will drive me away from a game if it gets too annoying. I am sure there are others like me. It could also have dire effects on the game's economy, especially for those who want nothing to do with RMT. Then there is the PL aspect: would a legitimate Blizzard-run goldseller site sell other services like PLing? If it didn't, then players would still resort to the illegal service-providers. If it did, then what would it be saying about its own game: it's too annoying and dull to be played the proper way?
Problem with the EQ2 exchange servers, is who wants to cheat on a server where everyone cheats? People who buy gold wanna do it on normal servers where it might give them an edge.
I've thought about it before, and blizz could make tons of money selling gold to players, but I think ultimately it would destroy the economy and thus the game. It would not last, and seperate servers like EQ2 has dont work well as I stated previously.
Best way they could do it, is to set up their own gold selling site, secretly, and sell gold at crazy low prices and snuff out the competition.
Comments
I don't play WoW, so I can't answer the really important question here. Has Blizzard been able to stop most of the illegal gold selling and gold farming? If they have stopped more than 60% of it then there is no reason they have to sell gold. If they can't stop more than 60% of it then it would seem that it would make more sense to "legalize" it and take out the middle man. At least with Blizzard selling it they could control it and prevent the numerous other problems that accompany illegal gold selling.
This would screw up the value of gold so bad... it would probably make gold next to valueless in game because all the people who are loose with their money would buy tons of gold, while people who choose to make gold in game would struggle to ever have enough to keep up with the inflation of everything. It would pretty much just make WoW a buy to win game.
I think it could potentially destroy the game if they did it on all servers, but if they wanted to pull an SOE with specific servers for this sort of thing then go for it.
I don't think it would be a good move for them... gold farmers wouldn't be the only ones cancelling their accounts.
I think it could work for a game that is specifically designed for it but not with WoW.
They make billions and some still discus if they need more more money lol, business perspective you mean GREED perspective:P
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
The money Blizzard already makes? No, they're not. If they did start selling gold, they'd probably lose sufficient players disgusted by the move that they'd be back where they were, financially.
They would earn more by selling the gold themselves.
Many people don't buy gold of fear of getting their account banned or getting tricked.
And if they already sell stuff like mounts I would say that anyone who is upset by RMT have already left the game a long time ago, durng the "my little pony" incident.
It would kill of farming, goldspamm and account hacking.
I think this is just a matter of time, when they started to sell stuff in a RMT shop they slowly opens up for these kind of things. And this doesn't just go for Wow but for all other P2P games with RMTs as well.
But it frankly does not upset me more than the regular RMT shops, at least will the playfield be even with official goldselling.
Do you have any data that supports that?
The data that I have seen has been quite the opposite.
In Battle of the Immortals you can seedata on the players that subscribed using your referral number. Consistently, the people with the highest monetary investment are the people who travel fastest and highest up the leveling scale.
Browser-based MMOs know that they get very little from their casual players, so several have even instituted early quests that require a spending anywhere from 2-10 dollars on items/resources to progress along the chain. One clear example of the difference in investment was in EmpireCraft's first contest - each person that spends 600 USD or more in the four-week period of the contest gets an epic hero. No steps were needed to enter. Just spend and everything is tallied at the end. In the end, the winners were all the highest level players with the largest guilds in the game. (Edit for clarity: What these players were already the top players prior to the contest starting)
In Ultima Online, when Age of Shadows came out, the biggest argument against the artifacts (epic items) were that the only people that could get them where the hardcores that farmed them and the hardcores that bought them from the ones farming them. Casual players were not spending money on these things, especially the casual PVPers who simply stopped fighitng "Arties" - characters covered in eBayed artifiacts. - altogether.
In EVE Online, the eccentric deeply-entrenched veterans are the ones who spend insane amounts of money, not the casuals. And by insane, I mean there have been people that have spent a hundred thousand US dollars to outfit mercs just for one war.
In general, though, if K2 Networks' games are any indication of spending in the average F2P MMO, CEO Joshua Hong says they get little, if any, revenue during the first six months and only after that people start to become more invested. The casual gamer often isn't the gamer that is spending 6 months or more in an MMO. The majority of the time that that is the much more invested player, especially with the track record of the last 3-4 years of AAA releases.
Your answer is in the words you use, Emergence. A person who is 'hardcore' about his gaming is going to invest more time, money and resources into it. A casual player is far less likely to be that entrenched in a game that they put excessive or even extra time, money or resources into it. Once they start doing that, well... they really aren't casual anymore.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
In response to Loktofeit:
I definitely see your point about hardcore vs. casuals and what they are willing to spend. If you define an MMO as a hobby (which in a way it is), someone who is heavily into that hobby is willing to spend more money on it than others who are more casual about it.
On the other hand, I noticed a couple of your examples are FFA PvP games, where you HAVE to stay ahead of the competition. If you're going to play those games as a hardcore gamer, you have to be successful against the other hardcore gamers, which means you have to put not only the time into the game, but also the cash resources necessary to keep up with your competition.
Emergence also has a point, however. In a PvE game like WoW, I can see the definition of hardcore as being about someone who either has more time, or at least is willing to devote more time, to playing the game. A casual player is someone who either can't or won't spend those hours. However, everyone wants to be the best, have the best stuff, etc. If a casual doesn't have the time to invest in the game, than that player would be more likely to go ahead and buy what he/she needed to be highly successful in the game.
I'm pretty sure if you could sample WoW's actual "demographics", you would see strong examples of both of these in the game. One the one hand, you would find hardcore players buying up extra gold to help support their guild, twinks, or even advance their max level characters, and you would see a large group of casuals who buy gold to advance themselves as an alternative to spending time they don't have in the game.
As far as blizzard selling gold in their game, I don't see much problem with it. The game is already set up more to keep players playing (and paying) than for anything else. I see them selling gold as just an extension of their current philosophy. I don't mean this necessarily as an insult to blizzard either. Their game is well designed and it was fun (for me, anyway), while it lasted. If they implemented it right, and if they made a commitment (to the game) to not let the gold selling become the point of the game (i.e keep the other ways to advance your character in place, don't let it all be about how much gold the character has), but just a "side job" to earn a little extra money, I think it would be fine. I am a little worried about the fact that a "price war" between Blizzard and the illegal gold sellers could, in fact, drive down the intrinsic in game value of the gold, but the way the game was when I stopped playing, gold wasn't that critical in the first place. Most of the items that were truly great in the game had to be quested/raided for and were BoP, not BoE, so there was only so much you could do for max level characters with gold. Also the point that gold selling is happening anyway, and it hasn't ruined the game, so why not take a little piece of that pie? It would also help with getting rid of the gold sellers, who, for me anyway, are a major immersion killer.
Games like WoW have an economy based off of how long it takes to accumlate in game gold. Specific areas that have too low of a time:gold ratio are cut back so that it balances out better. Introducing a way for players to purchase in game gold damages that ratio, and gold sellers would have to lower prices to compete. If Blizzard undercuts them to a point of not being profitable and forces the gold sellers out, then they would also end up losing money. It is more profitable to keep the time:gold ratio higher for both gold sellers and Blizzard.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
Very good point. The difference lies in the perception of the gold buying. For example, if Blizzard osld gold and the erception was that it was necessary, would many of those casual players who currently buy gold because they see it a a 'perk' or way to augment their game play still even play WOW, let alone buy game gold. We already know for a fact that the WOW playerbase, casuals included, is very accepting of paying for extras (sparkle pony), but the extra spend in in any hobby is consistently done in the vein of a desire, not a necessity. Once something is a perceived necessity, the casuals and those with a lower investment quickly drop off the list of potential buyers.
To elaborate more on that, right now, when players return to play WOW with their friends, they're usually already paying 30-70 to return and possibly a 50 transfer fee. It makes sense to throw another 20 or so on top of that for some starting capital to twink out the first 30 or so levels. If the company that makes the game sells the game cash, the perception becomes one of necessity - that one needs to also buy game cash to get started as that is the way thr game is designed.
This is why no MMO sells game gold unless it is a server specifically designed for game gold, with the expectation that everyone else is buying it, as well. Puzzle Pirates is an example of that type of a setup.
MMORTS (LOCO, LoL, BattleSwarm, Bloodline Champions), SLGs (Evony, Ikariam, Lords of Ultima, Grepolis), and whatever Facebook games are called (Ravenswood Faire, Mob/Vamp/Wolf Wars, Farmville) are also very good examples of MMOs that establish perception and expectation that money needs to be spent to enjoy the game. I don't normally refer to those examples, though, as that's the fastest way to steer a thread off course into what's an MMO and what isn't.
Right now in WOW, gold is plentiful, and everyone has it or can easily get it - through legal means or otherwise. Blizzard is not about to rock that cradle.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The game has to be designed differently if you're going to sell gold.
I could be wrong, but I think selling gold in WoW would unbalance the game in it's current design.
Right now, you have to spend some of the gold you make on equipment, leveling, and so forth.
You can't just farm gold naked.
And the game is designed for players to make gold, and even give it to each other.
So gold farmers, although adding a monetary transaction to the equation, are not really breaking the game design.
There is also a limit to what they can farm. It takes time, even if they have a forumula to do it efficiently.
Selling gold, IMO, breaks the current game design.
WoW was not designed as a cash shop game, and that's what it becomes if you sell gold.
There is no limit to how much gold can be pumped into the game, and it is not created by killing mobs as the game was designed.
You would take out all the players farming gold, (even if they are gold farmers they are still playing the game), and replace them with a gold shop.
I think that's a different game.
Agreed. Both the appeal and the design would be adversely affected.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Well, people are already selling gold and they hack other players accounts to do it.
Selling gold do mess up the economy but it is already happening and now criminal people tends to earn money on it. Legelize cannab... I mean goldselling.
My point without any sarcasm is that the fact that Blizzard don't sell gold while you need to get it ingame and can transfer it easily means it is the main reason behind account hacking. While this happens in other games as well it is really rare in the rest but happens to a lot of people in Wow.
As I see it there are 2 options: Either do they start to sell gold themselves or they need to change the economy so you don't depend as much on gold. Games where you don't need gold as much like Guildwars have really few goldsellers or hacked accounts. I never even seen a goldseller in game after 4 years of playing it.
Yeesh. I despise that line of thought. I've heard more than a few people state that using RMT sites to buy gold is justified if the game is too hard. I don't like the idea of coaxing goldbuyers into playing legitimately by changing the game to cater to them.
Let's face it allot of games can make you addicted and if those addicted people could buy stuff with real money you will have a problem at your hand. I see it in allot of F2P games where people pay way more then they can afford.
The real strategy is to get gangster...Let me explain!
blizzard as said might have some very hard hoops to jump through with laws and regulation when it comes to selling gold.
Also the fact they could lose a huge amount of playerbase. It could go either way..It could do really well , or blow up in there faces.
So maybe blizzard plays it safe?.... Maybe they do actually make money off of selling gold. In other words they actually control the gold selling through unknown resources. Kinda like having a private swiss bank account.
To avoid many complications , of coarse they would say . We dont allow gold selling. buying or selling gold can get you banned .
So for the most part they just turn there heads the other way while gold is being sold. Set up false bust . to make it look legit. Now i cant say for sure if this is how it is , but if i were blizzard i would probably do it.
Blizzard maybe just a game company , but money talks. with money comes power.
with power you can get away with anything. just ask OJ.
This is just a personal speculation..In no way or form am i saying that these statements of ilegal activity are being performed by blizzard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWvHcoqru7I
word.
as i said from the day one , the so called chinese gold farmers were blizzards employees just making more money to company.
Goldsellers are everywhere, I don't exactly doubt blizzard has some profit in this.
Selling gold is for losers, none who has any control over market really does that.
To sell gold you have to have valuable game assests aviable for gold and virtually unlimited demand for them. That is not the case in WoW.
Game developers do not sell gold, they sell other goods than gold, goods more valuable and important than gold, so that gold farmers cannot compete. Not just because publishers can make the goods out of thin air but also because goldfarmers cannot make them at all.
BTW: Money is not what it used to be, not in game and not in real life. In my childhood money was gold, it is not even worthless paper any more. Game money buys you most things in EvE but very little in most other MMOs and money are used only because they are forced as trade medium not because they are desireable by itself. Selling gold would make this painfully obvious.
Interesting thread. As an anecdote, the only player I knew who bought gold and PLs in WoW was a casual much like Emergence described in one of his posts (and no, it isn't me before anyone asks).
Let's figure out first what we mean when we say 'selling gold'. Is it an RMT shop style idea where the game is free to download and access but past a certain point people have to start forking out or play with limitations? Is it a special subscription-based server that people can do RMT for? Is it only certain items that players pay real money for and then sell on to other players for ingame gold? Or is it running a business on the side that sells gold legitimately for real money? I see some confusion on this in this thread.
If we look at RMT cash shops, we can see this would be an easy way for Blizz to sell an effectively ingame currency for real money. However, would Blizz win out if it did this and pulled the plug entirely on its P2P model? I guess it depends on what restrictions go with it? How would you feel as a player if Blizz suddenly decided that you have to pay to unlock former areas you used to have access to? Or that you have to buy bag slots, bank slots, etc. because now that everyone is no longer a paying customer who you have to start out from scratch? Or that you would have to fork out more money to buy expac-like content because I have noticed that RMT shops tend to charge more for that kind of thing. I am sure that people would fork out money for cosmetic pets, gear, etc., but if their WoW habit got really expensive, they might not want to stick around. If they're serious PvPers they might not want to stick around either if they have to pay to compete and that could destroy the whole aspect of arena fights as we see them now.
A hybrid F2A/P2P model might work out to Blizzard's benefit, but remains to be seen if it works to the benefit of the players.
Looking at keeping some servers RMT and others normal P2P, well as someone already pointed out, that didn't work out so well in EQ2. Since WoW is a competitive game for many, you would effectively have some servers branded as pay-to-win servers, which is not the most attractive reputation a server can have. I doubt that Blizz would gain much, and in effect might lose out especially if they open new servers to accommodate that kind of play (new servers cost money).
Special items sold on for ingame money? Well, I think that could actually work depending on what these items were for. This has worked out in EVE keeping in mind that the PLEX is sold on a player-run market. Maybe something similar could be done in WoW with game-time?
Running a second business on the side? I am not sure how to reply to that one. I guess it would depend on how much Blizzard would advertise it ingame too. If you're getting spammed legitimately all the time to buy their gold, wouldn't you get fed up after a point? To me the goldspammers ruin my game immersion and it's one thing that will drive me away from a game if it gets too annoying. I am sure there are others like me. It could also have dire effects on the game's economy, especially for those who want nothing to do with RMT. Then there is the PL aspect: would a legitimate Blizzard-run goldseller site sell other services like PLing? If it didn't, then players would still resort to the illegal service-providers. If it did, then what would it be saying about its own game: it's too annoying and dull to be played the proper way?
Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.
If Blizzard sold gold they would loose subs... so no its not a good business decision
Remember Old School Ultima Online
Problem with the EQ2 exchange servers, is who wants to cheat on a server where everyone cheats? People who buy gold wanna do it on normal servers where it might give them an edge.
I've thought about it before, and blizz could make tons of money selling gold to players, but I think ultimately it would destroy the economy and thus the game. It would not last, and seperate servers like EQ2 has dont work well as I stated previously.
Best way they could do it, is to set up their own gold selling site, secretly, and sell gold at crazy low prices and snuff out the competition.