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Seven Things Wrong With Modern-Day MMORPGs (revised)
Matt1128Y
Member Posts: 26
EDIT NOTE: I've done some revisions and have added other problems I have with newer MMORPGs. Please let me know what you think.
1.
There are not enough static dungeons. This is strongly related to number four on this list, but I decided to give it its own category. In any case, where are the huge static dungeons, caves, mazes, etc.? Not in games like WoW, that is for sure. I hate to sound like a broken record by bringing up EQ again, but in EQ there are actually dungeons and such that are part of its permanent world that can be accessed by all players. In other words, there are not hundreds of thousands of five-man groups running around in separate instanced dungeons like there is in WoW. This comes with its own pros and cons of course, but I personally think it is more fun and epic to see other groups of players navigating and interacting with a dungeon and its denizens, including other players, than to be stuck in a dynamic instanced dungeon with only four other people. This brings us back to what I have been saying before that current MMORPGs feel like single player games with chat rooms. Another thing I have noticed is that dungeons in modern MMORPGs do not feel like actual dungeons. There are no traps; there are no hidden passages; there are no ladders; there are no alternate routes; there are no underwater passageways; there is no mystery.
2.
Inadequate penalties for death. A 10% durability loss on equipped items (World of Warcraft)--or being able to die 10 times before your stats are reduced by 50% for four minutes (Rift: although you can heal yourself for a small amount of money (price of vendor trash) before your stats are reduced)--are not adequate penalties for dying in any game, let alone a massively multiplayer role playing game. Imagine if Nintendo had made it so dying in Super Mario Bros 3 meant respawning at an earlier checkpoint without the loss of anything; so, anyone, even your grandma, could eventually beat the game because everyone would effectively possess an infinite number of extra lives. Is that superior game design? Is that fun? I do not think so. Another example would be legitimately beating Contra versus beating Contra using the famous infinite lives code. The former would be much more challenging and sometimes even frustrating, but it would ultimately lead to more gratification than the latter scenario. Solid death penalties make games more exciting, challenging, and they encourage players to become better. Unfortunately, most MMORPGs as of late have dropped the ball in this regard.
3.
There are not enough ways to develop your character(s). In the original Everquest released in 1999 there are the following tradeskills: alchemy, baking, brewing, fletching, jewelcraft, poison, pottery, smithing, spell research, tailoring, tinkering, and fishing. And for skills (you know, the things that Blizzard took out of WoW recently, such as weapon skills) there is common tongue, barbarian, erudin, elvish, teir`dal, dwarvish, troll, ogre, gnomish, halfling, thieves cant, old erudin, elder elvish, froglok, goblin, gnoll, combine tongue, elder teir`dal, lizardman, orcish, faerie, dragon, elder dragon, dark speech, vah shir (languages that can be learned and spoken); and then there is begging, alcohol tolerance, throwing, swimming, spec: evocation, spec: divination, spec: conjuration, spec: alteration, spec: abjuration, sense heading, offense, meditate, hand-to-hand, dodge, divination, defense, conjuration, channeling, bash, alteration, abjuration, 2H blunt, 1H blunt, taunt, riposte, piercing, parry, offense, kick, double attack, dual wield, disarm, bash, archery, 2H slash, 1H slash, and evocation. (I'm not sure that even this is the complete list of skills.) Regardless, this impressive list of skills and languages sounds like something out of an actual role playing game. Each one of these skills adds to EQ in some way--whether it be enhancing atmosphere, providing opportunities to roleplay, distinguishing your character, or just adding an additional element to combat. One could argue that some of these skills overlap, but that would be a moot point because it is possible to create a MMORPG that would have a multitude of skills without any of them overlapping. On top of this laundry list of skills, EQ character creation includes tweaking your character's ability scores (strength, charisma, etc.)--yet another way to truly create a character in the sense of D&D tabletop (you know, the game that sparked the MMORPG genre) and to differentiate your character from others.
4.
There is a lack of emphasis on grouping with other players, especially during the time before end-game. The genre is called Massively Multiplayer Role Playing Game. Let that sink in for a moment. MMORPGs are not single player games with integrated chat rooms. That being said, there is too much of a focus on solo-play in modern-day MMORPGs. Although I have no problem with there being a class or two that is designed for soloing (e.g., in EQ the Necromancer is the only class explicitly designed for soloing); that way, people who like to solo can select a soloing class. However, designing an entire game in such a way that it can be easily soloed from level 1 to the level cap means that the game is not challenging (i.e., boring), making grouping completely optional and even a redundancy. When I play MMORPGs like WoW, it seems to me like leveling has been treated as pointless filler instead of an exciting journey. When I play current MMORPGs I feel like everyone is playing their own instance of the same single player game with the occasional interaction via trade or Chuck Norris joke. And if players feel like letting other players inside their little circle (group invite), then so be it; and if not, then so be it.
5.
It takes too little time and effort to hit level cap. I do not care if in a given MMORPG the primary way to gain experience is through killing monsters, or through questing--or a mix between the two. But for the love of the MMORPG genre, please stop churning out games in which players can hit the level cap in a week or two. Level 50 in Rift? Who cares. Level 90 in the original EQ? Holy $#!^. What is the difference between hitting the level cap in two weeks and having to run the same instanced dungeons over and over again for gear and hitting the level cap in a month or more and having to run the same dungeons over and over again to get gear? There is no difference in the sense that one is more "grindy" than the other; they are both grindy, but that is part of the MMORPG genre. The time spent progressing your character should never be called "grinding." The only time that word should be used is when referring to boring progression--and leveling does not have to be boring. If every level you obtained a new cool-looking spell or skill, would you not be excited about leveling, even if it took you a month to hit the level cap? Actually, if every level you obtained an awesome new ability, would you not want the level cap to take a long time to hit? Moreover, would not a MMORPG with a high level cap and a lot of end-game content be more valuable than a MMORPG with a low level cap and an equal amount of end-game content?
6.
The way in which NPCs behave is lacking. I am talking about being able to run away from attacking NPCs until they magically stop chasing you ("SORRY MAN, MY MOM'S CALLING ME FOR DINNER!"), becoming invulnerable, and then running back to their spawn point at 500% speed. First of all, they should not become invulnerable and run back to their spawn point at 500% speed. They should stop chasing after a certain period of time--depending on how much aggro you have generated (and the type of NPC they are)--and then walk or jog back to their original location, attacking whoever is in the way (if they are hostile to whoever is in the way, that is). This makes things much more immersive and interesting. Some argue that some players would use this to grief other players, but there are things that developers could do to lessen the chances of that happening (e.g. you will only be added to a NPC's aggro list if you stay around them for more than 10 seconds while they are attacking their original target). Secondly, there will always be players who grief; and the player willing to grief one way but cannot for whatever reason will probably try to figure out another. Take WoW for instance. Despite the precautionary measures taken by Blizzard, by which they had created a dumbed down game, there is still griefing. I would be as bold to say that there is just as much griefing if not more griefing going on in WoW than a game like EQ. The only difference being EQ is not dumbed down. Consequently, I do not think it is a good idea to focus too much development time on finding every possible way a player may grief another, and then change the game accordingly. A lot of times this just leads to dumbing-down game mechanics, as we have seen with the way in which NPCs generate aggro in newer MMORPGs.
7.
Faction is uninteresting. I hate to bring up that 12-year old game again, but in EQ your faction standing had a much more serious impact on gameplay and served to further immerse players in its virtual world. To give one example, creating a Shadowknight (class) Iksar (race) in EQ meant many NPCs would hate you, not talk to you, not barter with you, or even attempt to kill you if they saw you. Put simply, the way faction is done now, and I speak mostly from the perspective of a former WoW player, is boring. Merely using faction as another means to reward players for grinding is not the way to go.
Fin.
Comments
1. Community
2. Community
3. Community
4. Community
5. Community
"My Fantasy is having two men at once...
One Cooking and One Cleaning!"
---------------------------
"A good man can make you feel sexy,
strong and able to take on the whole world...
oh sorry...that's wine...wine does that..."
Good post many of us old skool players feel the same way, i do think your missing one thing though.
Creating a virtual world VS. just creating a game
ahhh yes community too as above posted stated, but im currently back playing EQ progression server and the community is great and reminds me of a time before the wow kiddies and trolls ruined every community
C
If your statement is correct, we should get rid of the community and then modern MMO should be fine...
Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone elses opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation
1. All the young people they let play nowadays.
2. All the old people who should quit playing games and do something productive with their lives.
3. The way they make the games not deep enough to really get immersed.
4. The way they make the games too addictive and easy to get lost in.
5. The way nobody can agree on what is wrong, because people don't all have the exact same tastes.
You should be able to solo level the entire game in any mmorpg. Some people like to roleplay the solitary hero etc, or are just not into the whole gaming with others. Their option should be there. However like anything in life it should be the harder option. It should be noticibly faster to level in a group, you should have better gear rewards for a group etc.
Grouping should be as integral as possible, but not a 100% requirement for basic game advancement. I mean you don't HAVE to group in WoW, but if you do, you can instance get better gear etc. This is a basic group idea, but needs to be taken further. The issue with this is, groups in WoW are seen as "I need to tolerate these 4 assholes for 30 mins till the item I want doesn't drop, and then I can abandon them cos they are all looooozer n0000bszzzz"
Something like: Being in a group +3% exp, Being in a guild group +5% exp. You should get a bonus to your group exp if the group remains together for longer periods. Like after an hour or 2 you get an extra +2.5% on top of the current bonus.
www.noobwarfare.com - Marching to war against the morons of the world.
I agree with some of this.
1, that's personal preference. why this doesn't work is you (and others) assume that everyone is like you and that having a harsh death penalty will affect them in the same way it affects you. Not true, sorry.
2, completely agree
3, even though I'm a solo player I agree. There needs to be areas that are great areas that have great resouces to obtain that are just group areas.
4, completely agree. early Lineage 2 is my ball park with leveling.
5, I agree for the most part. some things should chase you down to the ends of the earth. Some might just give up because "why bother, they are out of my cave".
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Heh, it started to get interesring :-)
1. Games become your second full-time job, if you like to be succesful and competitive (How much do you play? 8h a week? OMG dude, we don't need tards like you in our guild)
2.LF Healer/Tank. Sitting in front of the dungeon entrance and waiting for one, or disbanding, because one just had left.
3. Where the hell is Role Playing gone? I haven't seen the guy for ages.
4. Raiding is the only option for endgame.
5. General lack of freedom. Pick one of the fightink classes, go out and fight, get best gear possible via rinse and repeat mode.
Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone elses opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation
My 1st MMORPG I played was Lineage II, and to me it's pretty old-school, and all points OP writes there are not an issue in L2. But because of the 2nd post (community), I quited L2. Well, community..? Bots I mean
Like you, I started with EQ progression this week, and I have to say IT'S AWESOME! I still have to get used to a completely different interface, but aside from that (and graphics), I gotta say, EQ has the best game-play around!
Definitely.
Insane level and stat growth to mask any lack of skill or competence as a human being.
Someone needs to develop a truly hardcore MMO where only those without jobs or friends have any hope of ever reaching the level cap. Maybe something with a 10% exp degradation a day?
Meh, I approve =P
...and I'm sure a new game like this would impress ~30% of the mmo population who knew what mmo's used to be like - hell, they'd probably call the game gritty and hardcore instead of the tedious and uninnovative that it'd probably get rated.
Bottom line, I think gen pop likes playing brain-dead games. The new mmo crowd see nothing wrong with a chat-room surrounded by good graphics and probably wouldn't be able to relate to any of your points... They want things printed out in bold, they don't want to work for stuff, and they never had the d&d-style, eq1-esque, daoc-worthy playing experience to fall back on should such a game arise. Facebook sure as hell wouldn't prepare 'em for having level 1 mobs kick your ass for not being smart about it, having your stuff stolen once you get back to your corpse, and then finding out it'll take ~1 year to max level...
We all say this would be great for the genre, but we know if anyone ever tried it the game would form a clique-like population like darkfall or mortal online, be called a grindfest like Aion, and would then slowly fade into nothingness. There's a considerable population that will just jump on the bandwagon and play what everyone else does, unfortunately they rarely go for the 'hardcore' game.
There's going to be a crapload of mmo's coming out in the next year. It'll be a battle that might finally define the genre. Hopefully, once the dust settles, we'll have a couple games that'll be less bunny-loving and linear, and more of what you'd like to see.
And on that awesome note, I'm headed to McGee's to start some holiday partying.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I like your idea of increasing xp the longer you stay together. It's actually pretty brilliant.
As far as leveling to cap, I completely agree. I would say that I don't believe that everything in the game should be soloable. A player should be able to play to cap and be reasonably competitive while soloing. There should also be levels/areas that require a group and give different types of rewards/experiences.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
1. Adequate penalties for dying.
I agree, but only to a point. The penalties should be slightly more painful, but I do not want to return to the days of dropping everything, losing XP, deleveling, and having a corporate manager coming over to rape my dog... There does need to be some level of balance, one that is strong enough to encourage people to play smart, but not so strong as to discourage people from trying something different.
2. Not enough ways to develop your character.
Having played EQ since pre-kunark days, you have a bit of rose-colored glasses on. Many of the skills were simply something annoying to grind on, and not a way to flesh out your character. 9 times out of 10, you found your warrior switching weapons every so often just so that they could max out every weapon stat. It didn't help diversify the crowd, it simply was something else to max out.
Having said that, I agree there needs to be more to diversify you from other players, but that comes with it difficult and painful balancing requirements as well. If you look at all the cries on wow's boards for balance problems from just the limited amount of customization they have and you quickly recognize the problem. I think Rift has close to the proper amount of custmization of skills, unless you go for a complete skill-based game.
3. Lack of emphasis on incentives for grouping up with other adventurers at low to mid levels.
I'm torn on this one. I would much rather group than solo. But forced grouping is what also drove me out of FF11, which was by far my favorite game. Without being able to do anything solo, if you couldn't find a group, you sat around asking for a group for half an hour to over an hour simply waiting to be able to play the game. You NEED to be able to solo in games, because the lack of actually being able to do anything without grouping is even worse of a problem than being able to solo from 1 to cap.
4. It takes too little time and effort to hit level cap.
This isn't the problem. Leveling or pace of leveling is not, nor has it ever been, a real problem. The real problem is that of maintaining adequate goals for players to strive for. Leveling is simply one goal. To me, leveling should be a background thing that happens while you chase other goals and carrots. I don't care if it takes me 2 years or 2 days to to hit cap, I should never run out of meaningful goals to chase or actually be able to set for myself. The problem, from my point of view, is that you see end-game as the primary goal, and if it takes no time to reach, what else is there to do? The answer is not extending the grind, its providing more goals.
5. The way in which NPCs behave is lacking.
This one, I simply cannot agree with at all. I don't really want to go back to the days of someone yelling "TRAIN" as they cart 50 bad guys through a dungeon simply to watch them walk back through it killing all the lower levels in sight. Some things are simply better off left in the past, and this is one of them.
Now for my 5 things wrong with today's games.
1. Too much focus on total theme park or total sandbox.
If you want to make a "WoW Killer" try to find something in the middle that has fun "rides" and still allows you plenty of freedom to truly forge your way through the world. There's absolutely nothing wrong with instanced dungeons, or quest lines, but there needs to be MORE to adventuring than simply following quest lines. Sprinkle some sandbox in with the rest of the game and you improve it greatly. Don't create a game that drags me by the nose on a tour, but don't drop me off in the middle of nowhere and tell me that "you make your own content" give me a mixture of both.
2. Static Worlds.
Congratulations #348 you've killed the evil dread liche who has been terrorizing the world. Now calling #349, your turn to kill the liche has arrived! Nothing you do in MMO worlds has an impact, either as a single player, or as a playerbase. It doesn't matter how many times that liche has been killed, you can always walk up and kill him again. The only time the world changes is when a patch comes in with a deliberate change (like cataclysm.)
3. Lack of Complexity.
Games should be simple to play, impossible to master. FF11 I hold up as a pinnacle in this concept. You learned the basics quickly, but it took alot of work and research to be able to do anything really good. Somethings required timing, others a mastery of synergy. Fishing (a simple diversion) had numerous baits, and rods, some that worked better on small fish, some that worked better on big fish, some on salt water, some on fresh water. Your chances of catching fish were better on certain days of the week and phases of the moon than others. It was simple to learn to fish, but it took a good long while to learn how to do it effectively...
4. Use of Groups...
Not only, as you said, was there lack of incentive to group, grouping itself is nothing more than running around gang-raping bad guys. The group (and group quests/dungeons) need to rely on the fact that groups are more than one person... use the fact that groups can actually split up and do separate things as a means of creative puzzles, not simply as a group of people to fight larger battles.
5. Community and interdependence
More and more you see posts that divide the community. Niche and extremeist players want their preferred gameplay style segregated from playstyles they don't like. (PVP/PVE is a perfect example) Instead thse things should be mingled and and dependent on each other. Not to the point that a PVE player who hates PVP should be forced to PVP, but to the point that the PVE player actually cares about what is going on in the PVP side of the game and vice versa. (i.e. if the PVP player loses territory, the PVE player loses hunting grounds, but without those hunting grounds, the PVE player doesn't get drops that get used to make weapons and armor for the PVP player....)
The same goes for just the general spheres of the game (crafting/adventuring/Gathering) single characters should NEVER be able to do it all. They should HAVE to rely on other people, this interdependency builds community.
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
I tried WoW trial and I was so put off the by the fact, that it took me about 15 seconds to resurrect and continue like nothing happened, that I had to uninstall the game right away. Reminded me why I left the game.
Do people really like the safe and challengeless feel of games? I have hard time believing anyone really wants that. Perhaps I'm wrong.
At least I'm sure, that even the most casual player doesn't mind, if you can advance in a game in many way and for long time. In game like Runescape people seemed to be happy being at whatever skill level they were on and only had a goal to reach the next level or even a fifth of the exp required, upto 10 depending on starting level, and then did something else. Only playing +15 hours a days you could reach max levels in everything in a "reasonable" timeframe (like 2-3 years?). I don't understand at all why they are getting rid of advancing, which is usually made with repetitive tasks (low development time) and is number one thing to keep people playing for years.
Good post Matt1128Y...I would agree that grouping in a MMO seems like asking if you go swimming, should i be worried about getting wet? kinda question. If you are playing from start to finish solo in an MMO, why are you playing? Is it b/c you want to audience to accomplish something? MMO's were derived from PnP games...with some influence now from console games.
Grouping shouldn't be a an option..maybe not at early levels to get a feel for the game, but to experience the actual CONTENT of the game..it should be done as a group. Crafting, gathering, trading, etc should be able to be done primarily solo...but actually doing game content or completing tasks should be a group effort.
NPC/monster behavior...well..it varies with the game. I found the best NPC behavior in a singleplayer game...Gothic 2. No bars, no color tags, just aggression. The first Shadowbeast that jumped out at me almost made me jump out of my seat...and I had no idea if I could kill it....I didn't. Obviously this wouldn't work, but removing health bars from NPC's would make the experience more immersive...for that matter...remove them from everyone.
Problems facing this genre today is it was founded by a generation of people that have now gotten older, married, have kids, etc...but are still clinging to what their idea is/was. It is being shaped by people that have no/little interest in what it started out as. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, all things evolve...but it is happening.
Luckily for this older, now less populated group is we are employed and make our decisions with our money. If I like a game I will invest money into sustaining it(EvE) but if I dislike a game, I move on.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
"Five design mistakes I wish modern-day MMORPGs would go back to making" would be a more apt title.
Point #2 is the only one I could agree with -- and even then, only a little. The majority of skills are duplicates and if consolidated by function (language and attack (magic/weapon) skills in particular) you'd be left with a dramatically smaller list of actual skills.
Point #4 I simply don't agree with . Have we stepped away with "group or you can't play this game"? Yes. Is grouping nevertheless the best way to level in the biggest MMORPG out there? Yes, a character in WOW who groups will advance faster than one who doesn't (nevermind the fact that grouping is the only way to advance at max level.) Do some other MMORPGs make the mistake of under-rewarding grouping? Sure, and I think they'd be better if they rewarded it more and made it easy to group up (and if that was your actual criticism, then I'm in agreement.)
The remaining points simply miss the mark of good game design.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Yeah you are wrong. And wrong on two counts.
First, challenge != death penalty. Few % of the players ever kill LK in heroic mode. Ditto for the current H bosses. Now THAT is challenging. You can wipe & wipe & NEVER finish that encounter.
Challenge is the difficulty to kill the boss. In fact, it is GOOD to have a low penalty so people can jump back to face the challenge.
The fact that millions of people are raiding every week in WOW shows that people wants difficulty in boss encounter and not death penalty.
In fact, why would I want a hefty death penalty to PREVENT ME TO FACE THE CHALLENGE AGAIN?
Uh? Where do you get THAT?
Just take WOW as an example. To optimize your gear for DPS, you have to worry about multiple stats, interaction between than, the encounter, gemming, enchantment, and a lot of other things.
In fact, optimizing of dps is so complicated that stochastic simulation (simcraft) and gear optimization software (rawr) has been written to help with the process. The solution of gear optimization can change depending on the duration of fight, boss (heoric vs raid), buffs available and other factors.
Now if that is not complex, what is?
As far as I'm concerned, you have listed the five things that used to irritate me the most about old school MMOs.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Stop that. It's not fun to watch if you explain it to people.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
A game played with one type of piece (A stone), in two colors (White black) on a simple wooden board that is a grid of 19x19 lines.
Because they haven't been able to build an AI yet that can reliably beat even a mid level pro.
A sufficiently complicated system becomes TOO hard for computer programs (Even dedicated computer AIs in supercomputers) to figure out, or at least hard enough it takes a LOT of work (See: Chess), and can be more easily solved by human intuition and pattern recognition.
If there's all that DPS calculations and stuff, it's just math. Math is easy. Math is so easy a calculator can do it.
(Note, I'm not saying that there's other MMORPGs done that are more complex than WoW, I'm not going to get into that, I'm just saying that real complexity goes beyond the sort you're talking about.
)
It seriously takes you brain power to gear up in WoW? It's the easiest thing to do. Especially since there is only one build now thanks to Ghostcrawler. Gearing, geming and enchanting go acorrding to 1 rule. stat priority. Ex. hunter priority: Crit > Agl > Haste > Sta. Done! If you'r a PvP hunter? Resilience > cirt > agl > haste > sta Done! There's only 1 best dps rotatin and only takes a little experimenting to discover. But it's easier to just google it instead of play with rotation for 15 minutes to find it.
Really DPSing in a raid is easy mode. if you just can't manage to stay out of the fire, because you're focused on DPS, you're doing it wrong.
Rift has higher quality endgame than any other WoW-challenging MMO, and that's where their focus is. I applaud Trion for it, as it is the right design decision. You can cry all you want.
Endgame in Everquest? ZZZzzzzzz..... Endgame in Rift? OMGWTFBBQ
As for points 1-3 and 5... They're all overshadowed with:
-They're all the same samey fantasy bullshit.
I mean look at TERA. I wouldn't want to get caught dead within a mile of the border of the country adjacent to the ocean you have to cross to play it. A more condescending game idea I have never seen. But loads of "Game consumers" will play it. Me, as a gamer and often game elitist, I'm off to a fresh and exciting game called The Secret World.
1. Not enough creative quest(not boring kill x for y exp reward crap)
2. Need more depth in character building.. like build up run speed, jump skill, climbing skill, attacking skills and such
3. Bots/3rd party program is killing the game
4. Improve tech support/updates to fix bugs and such
5. Lack of Complexity- Basic and Advanced to master
6. No Item Mall, subscription game only.
Kain_Dale
Lol. Kudos.
The question is: Which came first, poor game mechanics or poor community?
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.