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Can an MMO ever really be 'balanced'?
twstdstrange
Member Posts: 474
Hello, Pub friends old and new, I'm back from a few months of hiatus; I got sick of the WoW Forum, being that it's full of altogether negative, cynical, and ultimately very angry people.
I've always enjoyed the Pub for it's (mostly) logical, creative, and starry-eyed posters, so here I am with a question I'm sure has been posted before, but I'm nonetheless curious on getting some responses and feedback on the matter.
The question: Can an MMO ever truly be 'balanced'?
This is primarily in the context of PvP, but also flows into the realm of PvP vs. PvE mechanics as well as the individual definition of 'balance'.
So let's start off with, what do you think of when you think of balance?
Personally, I see balance as the opportunity for equally skilled/geared players of different or similar class structure to be able to slay the other in a fair, relatively leveled environment without one player having too much of a solid "cheap" advantage over the other. AND/OR, negating the plausibility of a clearly lesser skilled player being able to slay a player (or perpetually keeping the better player from slaying him) with a higher skill level by taking advantage of unfair mechanics.
But, on the other hand, would this cause class mechanics to become less unique, or cause classes to become more like one another just for the sake of balance? Is this worth it?
And, if the field of combat were completely leveled, would two skill-capped players, in theory, fight forever until someone quits?
I'm curious to see some theories and thoughts on the subject. :]
Comments
The endless pursuit of balance has had a negative effect on the genre as a whole IMO. It has resulted in arena/battlegrounds and worst of all it has homogonized class choices which removes freedom. Sure some games are much more balanced for PvP than they were before, but at what cost?
Remember Old School Ultima Online
So extreme or even mild balance leading to homogenization is absolutely a no-no for you? I agree; feeling unique is something I just don't feel in modern MMO's anymore.
Perhaps the problem lies within PvP being sometimes centered around small groups instead of large ones?
The margin for class imbalance would indeed be squelched in a larger combat group, correct?
no.
No matter how a developers tries to balance things it will be eventually figured out how to build the character in such a way to make them more functional through items and equipment.
In my view trying to remove some art or modify the art the changes will start a downward spiral from player perspective so it is best to nerf the classes before launch and give them more power later than to nerf them after launch.
Of course that is just my view of it.
no, devs are constantly tweaking the game and trying different things...
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Oh my got!!!
i neber see a graphic of this before,
i neber p2p any game before, but this game i must!
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@OP:
Short answer: no
Long answer: hell no!
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Make player skill more important then stats... And everything will be much more ballanced....
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
So I'm assuming you would ultimately object to, say, Blizzards approach to 'balance'; by constantly 'buffing and nerfing' until kingdom come?
I wonder if there are alternatives to keeping the community happy outside of just not nerfing, but maybe buffing or altering (not necessarily NERFING) certain mechanics? Blizzard is doing this to an extent, but it seems to be happening every other week, causing players to constantly find that sweet spot again and again.
Unless it can be turned into a quake like FPS, then no, and even quake isn't always balanced, sometimes other guys have better guns/more health/more armor, although it's easy to get on even footing... all you have to do is walk over a gun/power up.
Anyways, there will never be a traditional MMO that is balanced.
The general consensus so far seems to be a resounding HELL NAW. Good, I'm glad we're not chasing pipe dreams here.
Now, would you be happy playing a game that doesn't try to chase balance?
I think I would, and at the same time I sort of wouldn't. My reason being that imbalances provide a clear challenege, but also open the realm for one class being better than all other, resulting in an influx of that class (due to human nature).
I'm sure I'm not the only one who sometimes picks the underdog class, but also picks the EZ mode class of the month for some simple fun, either.
I guess it depends what you want out of an MMO. I play and enjoy games such as Call of Duty and Starcraft 2, both of which are incredibly balanced. But there are only 3 choices in Starcraft and anyone could make your class in COD with little effect on the actual gameplay. These are both Arena type games, where you have a game that starts and finishes in a fixed area (map/level etc). Why would I want this same type of gameplay in an MMO? MMo combat mechanics are not on par with these types of games, however these COD/SC2 have limitations that MMO's address for me. If I want a perfectly fair fight, why not play COD and get into the action immediatly and just have some fun? MMORPG's are about character development, about suprise tactics and builds, about open world PvP. Well, thats what they should be about to me anyway but all of this is dieing for the sake of balance.
Remember Old School Ultima Online
Yes! This is why I'm hoping MMO's with PvP-centric game play will attempt to shy away from it's current standards and take on a new form. Perhaps Guild Wars 2? Perhaps (I know this is not an MMO) Diablo 3?
Yes a MMo can be balanced.
Most people think balancing means that every class needs to be able to be kill all the other classes.
I dont think that is what a MMo need when they balance tha classes. I think that all you need to balance a MMo is to have your classes on a teeter totter. Meaning that the 2 classes off set each other. Like a Warrior and Pally when they fight each other it should be a even fight, a Mage and warlock would an even fight and so on. If a mage attacks a War from ranged then it should have no problem killing a War. But if a War gets a jump on the mage then the mage should have no chance.
Making everybody in a MMo balanced makes no sence to me.
If people want there MMo to be balanced then the MMo that you are playing should have only 1 class.
That will be the only way you can make a balance MMo
All the well balanced games I can think of have one thing in common, they are not RPGs. I think it is the highly stat oriented nature of RPGs that make them unbalanced, unless you literally make all classes really samey.
Not until RPGs either change their mechancs or homogenize character options will there be any semblance of balance.
All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified
meh who knows, but one thing is for sure, PvP is over rated. It was never about the "PvP" back in the day, it was about having fun - where pvp servers were optional and stuff. It was about exploring and making friends. I really hate WoW brought this PvP frenzy
Basically a rock-paper-scissors design? This would work in theory, but what about small scale battles? The Rock would destroy the scissors on principle? Of course, this should be where skill takes over, but if they are both skill-capped, then what?
I think it is the wrong approach myself. I would prefer to release the game and let the players figure their strategies themselves and not intervene unless there was a gross error in the design.
That is just my view of it.
You don't believe the mechanics would become stagnant after a while?
Maybe I'm too used to Blizzards game of musical chairs.
In my design the approach is so vastly different though that all player can in for intended purposes build the same exact build if they so choose. It is diversity of the skill line not the stat, level or the mechanics. The way it is designed allows you to build the character you want and grow in a direction from novice to grand mastery with different moves and combinations. The current balance is game mechanical and calculated where this design is aimed at the player actually having some skill and knowing when to use what and why.
Vast difference in balance there.
*golfcalp*
I like this. Noted.
Yes.
One of the main problems with many MMO's is how PVP mechanics are not the same as PVE mechanics. So a change in a skill for lets say PVP reasons, can have unwanted consequenses for PVE and the other way around.
A good example are the ridiculous taunting skills. Originally designed with PVE in mind as relatively easy solution to make mobs attack you. Then when PVP is added, the devs immediately realise that those taunting skills wont work on human players. Which then results in different uses for the taunt skills in PVP and there you go, unbalanced MMO.
The only way to make PVP/PVE balanced, is if PVE mobs act like a similation of human PVP teams. So far, Ive only seen this approach in Guild Wars. But even there they had to divide PVP and PVE workings of skills at some point. In this case because PVE mobs didnt follow the same restrictions/requirements as toons (having more hp, higher then max lvl etc).
I think it is possible, just think of a fps like Unreal Tournament, where bots followed the same rules as human players. I know that its not a MMO, but I think that this can be extrapolated to typical MMO features like player progression and crafting etc.
100% perfect balance is impossible.
But you don't need 100% perfect balance to be called "balanced". You just need to be balanced enough that skilled players consistently out-perform unskilled ones, regardless of class.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
At first I thought you were talking about the MMORPG.com forums as we're oft-described as being a "cess-pool" in the gaming forum community.
As others have said, the answer for MMORPG's is no. There are too many variables, too many interactions, the task has proven impossible in every MMO I've ever played. For the developers its a constant battle of balance, rebalance, nerf here, nerf there, rinse and repeat.
Unfortunately, they continue to chase the grail of balance, which has lead to (IMO) boring, bland game where each "side" has to be given the exact same classes, abilities etc in order to keep it "fair" and make it easier to code the raid encounters.
I long for the days of DAOC where each faction had unique races and classes (which of course overlapped in a lot of cases) that really made the game world interesting. Sure, the game was unbalanced as hell, but it was so much fun to battle a Bone Dancer (overpowered as hell, esp when they first came out) or run like the wind as Minstrel or pop out of stealth as a Hunter and attack with both bow and Wolf pet.
Now every side has to given the same classes or people cry "NO FAIR". F**K fair, life isn't fair, we shouldn't expect it to be so in our MMORPG.
You want fair, go find a nicely balanced FPS'er , they limit the classes and abilities and make them available to everyone. Let our MMO's be virtual worlds where sometimes things just aren't very fair.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Your question is wrong IMO. I think this is how you ha dto ask it: "SHOULD a MMO really be balanced?". And then my answer would be NO.
As Kyleran said, life's not fair and that should reflect as such in a MMO. If you want to play priest, fine, go heal, that's your speialty. You should IN NO WAY be able to beat a warrior (as many MMO's show you can). It's not without reason MMO's made SUPPORT classes, TANK classes and DPS classes (and some even CRAFTING classes). Each of them has their own specialisation and you should WORK TOGETHER in the game to achieve the goals.
The major flaw of many MMO (mostly the pre-made faction ones) is that PvP should be balanced so that every player is able to SOLO the content (up to a certain limit, where LotRo is aiming for 100% solo and WoW still is 90% solo) on ANY class and hit cap ('end-game' as some call it) to PvP in equal (read: balanced) groups.
Start to play a REAL MMO like Lineage II or EVE, where NOTHING is balanced, and you really need to use skill and cooperation to reach your goals. Too bad, most players of mainstream MMO's think these games are not balanced at all and leave them very quickly *sadly* But still, in these MMO's you can obtain your goals (or win in PvP) as underdog class if you use skill and have knowledge of your opponent's class.
Basically, MMO's that aim for balance (and these are mostly the faction -based PvP MMO's) just don't aim for skill...
Really? I love these forums, I always come here for creative support/discussion and I always get great feedback, this thread is no exception. Great responses, everybody, thank you for enlightening me on the topic! I think it was rather imperative that I shatter the notion of a perfect, bland world in favor of a topsy turvy one that is actually fun.
think for a second balanced wow for example,100% ultimate super balanced wow.
their forums would die same day.
people wont feel so unique anymore,blizzard cant act like listening them anymore etc.
unbalance is $$$.
Generation P