I'd say that for an open-minded person there are no narrow-minded points of view.
Open-minded means you consider all viewpoints valid. Because they're valid they can't be narrow-minded ( as narrow-minded would make the viewpoint invalid. ) Doesn't mean you have to agree with them, but it does mean you have to accept that there are people who feel this way and that they do so for perfectly reasonable and valid reasons. Even if, or especially if, you don't understand them.
Narrow-minded viewpoints only exist to narrow-minded people I'd say. The moment you perceive something as narrow-minded, or in any other way negative, the first thing you should look at is not whatever you perceive as negative. First thing you should look at is yourself. Not why something is negative, but why am I seeing it as negative.
Once you've answered why you consider it negative you have to see if those reasons are valid. "Killing people is bad." is a pretty valid reason ( yes, even in self-defense. It's just worse to not kill someone in self-defense. ) "Solo MMORPGs are stupid." is not really a valid reason. If you're reasons aren't valid then chances are pretty good that whatever you consider negative isn't really negative. It's only your perception of it that is.
Then you can either try to change your perception to accept that point of view or you can simply accept the fact that there will always be things that you simply don't understand. Either way, you've got some accepting to do. But hey, growing up is a matter of coming to acceptance with yourself and the world around you, so at the end you'll be a bigger person.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
So easily having your feelings hurt. I'm sorry I made you sad/angry. I feel bad.
Also, reiterate specifically has a connotation of excessiveness. Hence 'Don't you mean reiterate'? Well, never mind, it's a pretty petty subtle jab, anyway, and I shouldn't have gone there.
You're also getting more and more insulting and cheerily switching over to attacking me, so I think we can both agree this conversation is going nowhere. Good luck with convincing the world to change to meet your own viewpoint though.
Don't think you'll get anywhere with it, especially if you switch to nothing but personal attacks so quickly.
4. It takes too little time and effort to hit level cap. I don't care if in a given MMORPG the primary way to gain experience is through killing monsters, or through questing--or a mix between the two. But for the love of the MMORPG genre, please stop churning out games in which players can hit the level cap in a week or two. Level 50 in Rift? Who cares. Level 90 in the original Everquest? Holy $#!^.
Definitely. Insane level and stat growth to mask any lack of skill or competence as a human being. Someone needs to develop a truly hardcore MMO where only those without jobs or friends have any hope of ever reaching the level cap. Maybe something with a 10% exp degradation a day?
The last two games I played in which leveling was extremely slow were Asheron's Call and Anarchy Online. I played the former just over a year, and the latter for nearly three years. I never hit the level cap in either game, despite putting in a good deal of playtime. That never bothered me. Why? Because the content of those games was not based primarily on the endgame. As the old saying goes, the joy is in the journey, and these games were built around that idea. That you needed to hit the level cap to really start enjoying the game was no part of the mentality of either the players or developers. In fact, it really made those game more casual player friendly, because you never felt pressured to play a lot as to hit the level cap quickly as possible just so you could really begin playing.
I got to page 3 and skipped to the end. If this was said, I apologize.
About death penalty, why not have people choose whether they want old school death penalty or new age hop and go. I'll bet majority will just hop and go.
I understand risk makes it more exciting, but it also deters. If I went into PVP thinking I'd lose all my gear for a third time, I'll stop going. If i'm worried about waiting 22 seconds for a rez, you'll see me in 23 seconds PVPing again.
Anyone who thinks wow its the best mmo ever and has 12+ million subs is clearly delusional and therefor can be ignored.
Explain to me why it CAN'T have 12 million subs. The video game industry itself is a $10 billion dollar industry, and there are 6-7 billion people on the planet. I think we have large enough numbers here to give them 12 million subs. Honestly, 12 million people just isn't that many anymore.
EDIT: Oh and never ignore people you think are delusional. They still can vote/run for office/do a lot of things that you might disagree with and will leave you whinging.
Its caled Maths. I know this is beyond most if not all wow players But try and understand if you can. If you know how much it costs to play wow per month and how many people blizzard claim are playing you can work out how much the company would have to make IF those numbers are true. Since Blizzard does NOT make that much they do NOT have that many subs. SIMPLE. According to the last quarterly report I looked at I work out they had abut 4 million subs and its probley gone down since then as well. I very much doubt it will ever go up again.
Top 3 MMO's PRE-CU SWG GW1 GW2
Worst 2 wow and Lotro Under standing stones it went woke
Lots of stuff to comment on in this OP statement. I will address just the one about MMORPG. Lets take it one at a time. MASSIVE means large-big-huge-lots. Easy enough to understand. MULTIPLAYER simply means many players along with the game NPCs. ONLINE (you left that out) means that the game is played Online with a computer. RPG wasn't discussed so we let that stand. NOW - Nowhere in that does is say or even hint that grouping is suggested or required. The inference to grouping is your own personal definition - like the Bible is interpreted differently by so many people, like the Constutution in politics. A lot of online game players just think of it as a way to play a game different from PnP(pencil and paper).
Grouping is a system within gameplay that is simply a good idea and should be encouraged because it is a good idea. Being an MMORPG does not mean enforced grouping in order to get the most out of a game. RPG allows an individual to do something they would be unable to do in real life - like reading a good fiction novel of any genre. Grouping can add to that immersive and special feeling and is something a novel cannot do except in a story about a group. Even then you have the Heroe(s).
Bottom line, individuals are playing the game. Grouping MAY add to the pleasure and fun and should be a part of the game. But not, in my opinion, as anything more than a part of the system, not its primary backbone. There are some problems and difficulties in actual setting up and playing groups as any glance at the forums can show you even if your grouping experience has been perfect. So please understand that MMORPG is not a description of 'grouping' in actual play, just a type of gaming. What and how you want it to be played is wide open for opinions (we all have 'em ya know). This is mine.
wrong wrong and WRONG. All wow showed is that you can sell crap to lots of people if you advertise it enough and lie about how many people you have playing it. The BEST mmo I ever played came out BEFORE wow. IE (Pre Cu) SWG. It was better then wow in every way.
Programming is one way and if you think SWG ever had better coding than Wow you have very rose colored glasses on you.
The reason SWG started losing players in the first places which lead to the idiot decision were because it was coded by drunk monkeys, like all other SOE games.
If EQ2 would have been good coded, it would have been the big now, the IP already had the MMO fans and most people thought it were going to be the next big.
Because wow NEVER had any bugs in it at all now did it. I never said SWG was perfect just better than wow. Yes SWG had to many bugs in and the combat system needed work. BUT bugs can be fixed . The problems with wow can't be.
Anyone who thinks wow its the best mmo ever and has 12+ million subs is clearly delusional and therefor can be ignored.
This makes me laugh. SWG did not just have bugs. The game had fundamental flaws in its core engine design.
eg. The Rifleman profession was supposed to be long range marksman but the game would not start generating mobs until you were within pistol range. That was not a bug but a resource management system so the game had fewere NPCs to deal with.
The SWG crafting UI was completely incompatible with the long skill-up grind necessary to level the crafting professions.
The reason they had so many problems fixing bugs was beacuse fixing one bug would usually create one or more new ones.
The game was imploding months before the NGE or CU. One of the reasons for the NGE was that the devs decided that it would be easier jsut to rewrite a large chunk of the game raher than having to fix the old code.
Its clear you never played the game or a rifleman. So go back to wow and don't post here again as you clearly have no idea what you are talking about thank you
It's clear that you cannot handle someone who actually played the game back then, contradicting your utopian view of the very flawed game SWG was.
For reference: Torik Tavai, Wanderhome server. Member of the Strength and Honour guild located at Honor's Hold on Dantooine. Started out as a weaponsmith then became a master Rifleman/Ranger. After realizing the flaws in those professions, switched to a TK/Polearm master. Canceled my subscription about 2 months before the CU.
And i dont wanne reply on all you said to many wrongly pointed out things about mmorpgs.
One i wanne reply its a shame many of you never played Asheron call becouse that game had a far better skill system and develop your character not to mention gameplay and Darktide for full loot free for all pvp its till one best everback then in 99, then EQ
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
I agree with the OP. Most MMOs have become way too casual in the way they approach game design. There is definitely a place for these games where you can jump in, have a little fun and log out without taking it too seriously. In fact, most MMOs will continue to be this way. I for one would like a game or two that focused a bit more on realism and become a true simulation of a different world. I can't remember the last time that I really was interested in any character I rolled in a MMO. They become simply a vehicle to see the game and you never really forget that it is indeed a game and nothing more.
The biggest thing that really disinterests me any more is that every MMO is completely focused on combat. No world would last very long if all everyone did was fight but since these worlds are completely static it doesn't matter. A fresh MMO would have to be designed completey differently from the ground up and it doesn't look like one will be made any time soon.
1. Inadequate penalties for dying. A 10% durability loss on equipped items (World of Warcraft)--or being able to die 10 times before your stats are reduced by 50% for only 4 mins (Rift. Although you can heal yourself for a minute amount of money before it gets to the point where you stats are reduced by 50%)--are not adequate penalties for dying in any game, let alone a MMORPG. Imagine if Nintendo had made it so dying in Super Mario Bros 3 meant respawning at an earlier checkpoint without the loss of anything; so, anyone, even your grandma, could beat the game because everyone would be given an infinite number of extra lives. Is that superior game design? Is that fun? Solid penalties for dying make games exciting, challenging, and encourage you to become better. Unfortunately as of late, the game developers for MMORPGs have been dropping the ball in this regard.
I was thinking about this the other day. I was thinking how simple MMOs have become due to the lack of death penalties. There's really no risk in MMOs. If you die, you just pick up where you left off.
FFXI had a good system. Thinking about it makes me want to play it again.
1. Inadequate penalties for dying. A 10% durability loss on equipped items (World of Warcraft)--or being able to die 10 times before your stats are reduced by 50% for only 4 mins (Rift. Although you can heal yourself for a minute amount of money before it gets to the point where you stats are reduced by 50%)--are not adequate penalties for dying in any game, let alone a MMORPG. Imagine if Nintendo had made it so dying in Super Mario Bros 3 meant respawning at an earlier checkpoint without the loss of anything; so, anyone, even your grandma, could beat the game because everyone would be given an infinite number of extra lives. Is that superior game design? Is that fun? Solid penalties for dying make games exciting, challenging, and encourage you to become better. Unfortunately as of late, the game developers for MMORPGs have been dropping the ball in this regard.
I was thinking about this the other day. I was thinking how simple MMOs have become due to the lack of death penalties. There's really no risk in MMOs. If you die, you just pick up where you left off.
FFXI had a good system. Thinking about it makes me want to play it again.
With the exception of STO(which I hear has been changed in this respect), I have yet to play an MMO where you can just pick up where you left off.
I think OP pretty much nailed it. What he describes launched the genre.
Then came the games with training wheels around the time broadband was introducted. People mistook the training wheels as being what made MMORPG's more popular when it was probably the broadband access.
And now we are saturated with WOW-clones, none of which have staying power, and it is only a matter of time until some brave devs (and brave investors) retap the gold mine that is harsh, open world, free range, sandbox fantasy gaming.
Yes, some may say "risk deters", but so does "boredom" and a challengless, riskless, copycat game is about as boring as it gets.
By the underlined logic in that post, the popularity of Aion, LoTRO etc over every single sandbox game can't be explained.
There are brave devs already making sandbox games, but I don't see a vast financial success from them. They are successful in that they are turning a profit but not to the extend of the other larger MMOs.
You can harp about why this is wrong or right but at the end of the day, the market is saying 'we like WoW type more than sandbox type' and has been for the past 6 years.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I got to page 3 and skipped to the end. If this was said, I apologize.
About death penalty, why not have people choose whether they want old school death penalty or new age hop and go. I'll bet majority will just hop and go.
I understand risk makes it more exciting, but it also deters. If I went into PVP thinking I'd lose all my gear for a third time, I'll stop going. If i'm worried about waiting 22 seconds for a rez, you'll see me in 23 seconds PVPing again.
There are degrees of "risk". In PVE games, risk just keeps players from doing stupid things, and players rarely die in such games because they are more careful.
The immersion factor is amped way up in such games. Remember, more people have quit MMO's out of boredom than out of frustration.
...and what's more exciting? The game encouraging players to constantly jump into combat, or the one forcing players (through game mechanics) to sit idle until conditions are perfect (otherwise they risk painful death)?
For more players, constantly doing interesting things is better than waiting around being super-cautious about every action (which also makes the spurts of action that much less exciting, because they're pre-determined.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Exactamundo. I don't get why devs are fearful of making death hurt. I guess they never watched the twilight zone where a guy made a deal with the devil to be essentially immortal, but eventually got so bored he ended killing himself because the world no longer held any real meaning.
Also, MMO devs have obviously never played Roguelikes before, where the concept of PERMA-death makes the game 100 times better not worse. And yes there are times I spent dozens and dozens of hours on a character only to have him die carelessly (roguelike forums are loaded with posts about YASD - "Yet Another Stupid Death")
2. Not enough ways to develop your character...
Details here will vary, but essentially I would agree you need multiple dimensions to the game. And each dimension should be a game in and of itself, not just filler timesink like WoW crafting. If the crafting minigame isn't fun or serve a purpose, it is a bad game design.
3. Lack of emphasis on incentives for grouping up with other adventurers at low to mid levels...
Little did you realize you answered your #3 issue with your #4 issue. The reason why low to mid levels lacks incentives to grouping, is it lacks incentives to ANYTHING other than power leveling to max. My viewpoint is leveling should take a LONG LONG LONG time and hence each level (or at minimum tiers) should require you to focus on that level/tier, group, optimize your build/gear, etc.
If you advance too fast there is no reason to do anything other than keep advancing...
4. It takes too little time and effort to hit level cap...
Problem here might just be this is too hard to deal with at this moment in history. Even single player games have crap AI (whether it be NPC or AI party member). I think the answer here is find a way to incentivise actualy players to take the role of NPCs (e.g., questgivers, shopkeepers, mercinaries, etc).
Devs are kind of lazy here I'm afraid.
6. Faction is uninteresting...
Definately need more meaning here, and even more importantly compelling reasons for World PVP.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
So the fact there are people incompatible with you is a 'game problem'? what?
Have some RL friends play with you or join like-minded people.
Community is something that you can fix in the majority of MMOs (ignore button, guild/outfit function). I fail to see how this is a 'game problem'. ?_?
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
1. You only get combat classes to choose from. 2. Crafting excludes anything that does't involve combat. 3. You can get anywhere in the entire game in 5 minutes or less. 4. All your items except armor and weapons are just icons in a bag. 5. Your character leaves absolutely zero imprint on the game world. 6. Devs have no idea what RP is. They just make a server or two and call them "rp" and think theyve done their job. So wrong.
4. All your items except armor and weapons are just icons in a bag.
6. Devs have no idea what RP is. They just make a server or two and call them "rp" and think theyve done their job. So wrong.
4. is an excellent point.
6. is not entirely true. Most of the old generation of devs are old P&P players and they are very knowledged about RPing. But a lot of the later devs seems rather clueless, I wish the devs could take an evning of a week or so and play some fiffrent P&P games, it would help the genre a lot.
Originally posted by Loke666 Originally posted by Foomerang 4. All your items except armor and weapons are just icons in a bag. 6. Devs have no idea what RP is. They just make a server or two and call them "rp" and think theyve done their job. So wrong.
4. is an excellent point. 6. is not entirely true. Most of the old generation of devs are old P&P players and they are very knowledged about RPing. But a lot of the later devs seems rather clueless, I wish the devs could take an evning of a week or so and play some fiffrent P&P games, it would help the genre a lot.
Of course I give props to the original generation. But the modern day mmorpgs devs could definitely take some notes about how to roleplay.
...and I'm sure a new game like this would impress ~30% of the mmo population who knew what mmo's used to be like - hell, they'd probably call the game gritty and hardcore instead of the tedious and uninnovative that it'd probably get rated.
Bottom line, I think gen pop likes playing brain-dead games. The new mmo crowd see nothing wrong with a chat-room surrounded by good graphics and probably wouldn't be able to relate to any of your points... They want things printed out in bold, they don't want to work for stuff, and they never had the d&d-style, eq1-esque, daoc-worthy playing experience to fall back on should such a game arise. Facebook sure as hell wouldn't prepare 'em for having level 1 mobs kick your ass for not being smart about it, having your stuff stolen once you get back to your corpse, and then finding out it'll take ~1 year to max level...
We all say this would be great for the genre, but we know if anyone ever tried it the game would form a clique-like population like darkfall or mortal online, be called a grindfest like Aion, and would then slowly fade into nothingness. There's a considerable population that will just jump on the bandwagon and play what everyone else does, unfortunately they rarely go for the 'hardcore' game.
There's going to be a crapload of mmo's coming out in the next year. It'll be a battle that might finally define the genre. Hopefully, once the dust settles, we'll have a couple games that'll be less bunny-loving and linear, and more of what you'd like to see.
The point, though, is that the game only has to exist for those who would enjoy that playstyle. And there a lot of us out there... and slowly becoming more vocal about it, based on the increased activity I'm seeing about such topics.
You talk about it forming a "clique-like" population.... Why such a negative connotation (assuming it was meant as one)? I'd call it "people who enjoy the type of gameplay those games provide". Why can't those people have a game they enjoy as well, without being regarded as "a clique"?
And Aion has *not* faded into nothingness. It's not very big over here because it's decidedly developed more for an Eastern playerbase (go figure right?). It's doing quite well in its Eastern market however. Again, Aion is not a "clique" game... it's a game designed for a certain portion of the MMO community... and that portion happens to greatly enjoy it.
Generally speaking here...
One problem I see is how so many have been "taught" to believe that the only way a MMO can be "successful and worth existing" is if it appeals to "everyone" - especially them. Look at how "offended" people get when they find a new MMO being announced isn't designed around their preferred playstyle. They lash out on forums like these, insult the developers, insult the people who like the game, and act like they're somehow being personally slighted. Even though there are myriad MMOs on offer that provide exactly the gameplay they enjoy, they're outraged at the thought of one existing that doesn't.
People need to get over themselves, drop the entitled "it's all about me" attitudes and stop expecting the MMO world to revolve around what *they* like and what *they* want. There's millions of people playing MMOs. Among those millions are many different tastes, styles and preferences. There is absolutely nothing wrong with games being developed specifically to cater to those tastes, styles and preferences.
Everything does not have to be "for everyone".
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
One problem I see is how so many have been "taught" to believe that the only way a MMO can be "successful and worth existing" is if it appeals to "everyone" - especially them.
QFT.
I've noticed the same thing. It also extends to player views. If you declare a preference for a game experience that isn't the one I want, then you are deficient in some way. You're hardcore, a carebear, a griefer, whatever. Hyperbole and ad hominem attacks abound.
Just take WOW as an example. To optimize your gear for DPS, you have to worry about multiple stats, interaction between than, the encounter, gemming, enchantment, and a lot of other things.
In fact, optimizing of dps is so complicated that stochastic simulation (simcraft) and gear optimization software (rawr) has been written to help with the process. The solution of gear optimization can change depending on the duration of fight, boss (heoric vs raid), buffs available and other factors.
Now if that is not complex, what is?
A game played with one type of piece (A stone), in two colors (White black) on a simple wooden board that is a grid of 19x19 lines.
Because they haven't been able to build an AI yet that can reliably beat even a mid level pro.
A sufficiently complicated system becomes TOO hard for computer programs (Even dedicated computer AIs in supercomputers) to figure out, or at least hard enough it takes a LOT of work (See: Chess), and can be more easily solved by human intuition and pattern recognition.
If there's all that DPS calculations and stuff, it's just math. Math is easy. Math is so easy a calculator can do it.
(Note, I'm not saying that there's other MMORPGs done that are more complex than WoW, I'm not going to get into that, I'm just saying that real complexity goes beyond the sort you're talking about. )
Go is complex because the state base is huge. The core theory is also just math.
And the claim that math is "easy" is just wrong. Scientist have been working for decades to perfect stochastic modeling & optimization. And just look at the number of variables you have in optimizing wow dps? It is only easy if you can do it without help.
Comments
I'd say that for an open-minded person there are no narrow-minded points of view.
Open-minded means you consider all viewpoints valid. Because they're valid they can't be narrow-minded ( as narrow-minded would make the viewpoint invalid. ) Doesn't mean you have to agree with them, but it does mean you have to accept that there are people who feel this way and that they do so for perfectly reasonable and valid reasons. Even if, or especially if, you don't understand them.
Narrow-minded viewpoints only exist to narrow-minded people I'd say. The moment you perceive something as narrow-minded, or in any other way negative, the first thing you should look at is not whatever you perceive as negative. First thing you should look at is yourself. Not why something is negative, but why am I seeing it as negative.
Once you've answered why you consider it negative you have to see if those reasons are valid. "Killing people is bad." is a pretty valid reason ( yes, even in self-defense. It's just worse to not kill someone in self-defense. ) "Solo MMORPGs are stupid." is not really a valid reason. If you're reasons aren't valid then chances are pretty good that whatever you consider negative isn't really negative. It's only your perception of it that is.
Then you can either try to change your perception to accept that point of view or you can simply accept the fact that there will always be things that you simply don't understand. Either way, you've got some accepting to do. But hey, growing up is a matter of coming to acceptance with yourself and the world around you, so at the end you'll be a bigger person.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
So easily having your feelings hurt. I'm sorry I made you sad/angry. I feel bad.
Also, reiterate specifically has a connotation of excessiveness. Hence 'Don't you mean reiterate'? Well, never mind, it's a pretty petty subtle jab, anyway, and I shouldn't have gone there.
You're also getting more and more insulting and cheerily switching over to attacking me, so I think we can both agree this conversation is going nowhere. Good luck with convincing the world to change to meet your own viewpoint though.
Don't think you'll get anywhere with it, especially if you switch to nothing but personal attacks so quickly.
I don't see how that helps your case.
As the old saying goes, the joy is in the journey, and these games were built around that idea. That you needed to hit the level cap to really start enjoying the game was no part of the mentality of either the players or developers. In fact, it really made those game more casual player friendly, because you never felt pressured to play a lot as to hit the level cap quickly as possible just so you could really begin playing.
I got to page 3 and skipped to the end. If this was said, I apologize.
About death penalty, why not have people choose whether they want old school death penalty or new age hop and go. I'll bet majority will just hop and go.
I understand risk makes it more exciting, but it also deters. If I went into PVP thinking I'd lose all my gear for a third time, I'll stop going. If i'm worried about waiting 22 seconds for a rez, you'll see me in 23 seconds PVPing again.
Its caled Maths. I know this is beyond most if not all wow players But try and understand if you can. If you know how much it costs to play wow per month and how many people blizzard claim are playing you can work out how much the company would have to make IF those numbers are true. Since Blizzard does NOT make that much they do NOT have that many subs. SIMPLE. According to the last quarterly report I looked at I work out they had abut 4 million subs and its probley gone down since then as well. I very much doubt it will ever go up again.
Top 3 MMO's PRE-CU SWG GW1 GW2
Worst 2 wow and Lotro Under standing stones it went woke
Lots of stuff to comment on in this OP statement. I will address just the one about MMORPG. Lets take it one at a time. MASSIVE means large-big-huge-lots. Easy enough to understand. MULTIPLAYER simply means many players along with the game NPCs. ONLINE (you left that out) means that the game is played Online with a computer. RPG wasn't discussed so we let that stand. NOW - Nowhere in that does is say or even hint that grouping is suggested or required. The inference to grouping is your own personal definition - like the Bible is interpreted differently by so many people, like the Constutution in politics. A lot of online game players just think of it as a way to play a game different from PnP(pencil and paper).
Grouping is a system within gameplay that is simply a good idea and should be encouraged because it is a good idea. Being an MMORPG does not mean enforced grouping in order to get the most out of a game. RPG allows an individual to do something they would be unable to do in real life - like reading a good fiction novel of any genre. Grouping can add to that immersive and special feeling and is something a novel cannot do except in a story about a group. Even then you have the Heroe(s).
Bottom line, individuals are playing the game. Grouping MAY add to the pleasure and fun and should be a part of the game. But not, in my opinion, as anything more than a part of the system, not its primary backbone. There are some problems and difficulties in actual setting up and playing groups as any glance at the forums can show you even if your grouping experience has been perfect. So please understand that MMORPG is not a description of 'grouping' in actual play, just a type of gaming. What and how you want it to be played is wide open for opinions (we all have 'em ya know). This is mine.
It's clear that you cannot handle someone who actually played the game back then, contradicting your utopian view of the very flawed game SWG was.
For reference: Torik Tavai, Wanderhome server. Member of the Strength and Honour guild located at Honor's Hold on Dantooine. Started out as a weaponsmith then became a master Rifleman/Ranger. After realizing the flaws in those professions, switched to a TK/Polearm master. Canceled my subscription about 2 months before the CU.
This!
And i dont wanne reply on all you said to many wrongly pointed out things about mmorpgs.
One i wanne reply its a shame many of you never played Asheron call becouse that game had a far better skill system and develop your character not to mention gameplay and Darktide for full loot free for all pvp its till one best everback then in 99, then EQ
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
I agree with the OP. Most MMOs have become way too casual in the way they approach game design. There is definitely a place for these games where you can jump in, have a little fun and log out without taking it too seriously. In fact, most MMOs will continue to be this way. I for one would like a game or two that focused a bit more on realism and become a true simulation of a different world. I can't remember the last time that I really was interested in any character I rolled in a MMO. They become simply a vehicle to see the game and you never really forget that it is indeed a game and nothing more.
The biggest thing that really disinterests me any more is that every MMO is completely focused on combat. No world would last very long if all everyone did was fight but since these worlds are completely static it doesn't matter. A fresh MMO would have to be designed completey differently from the ground up and it doesn't look like one will be made any time soon.
I was thinking about this the other day. I was thinking how simple MMOs have become due to the lack of death penalties. There's really no risk in MMOs. If you die, you just pick up where you left off.
FFXI had a good system. Thinking about it makes me want to play it again.
With the exception of STO(which I hear has been changed in this respect), I have yet to play an MMO where you can just pick up where you left off.
By the underlined logic in that post, the popularity of Aion, LoTRO etc over every single sandbox game can't be explained.
There are brave devs already making sandbox games, but I don't see a vast financial success from them. They are successful in that they are turning a profit but not to the extend of the other larger MMOs.
You can harp about why this is wrong or right but at the end of the day, the market is saying 'we like WoW type more than sandbox type' and has been for the past 6 years.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
...and what's more exciting? The game encouraging players to constantly jump into combat, or the one forcing players (through game mechanics) to sit idle until conditions are perfect (otherwise they risk painful death)?
For more players, constantly doing interesting things is better than waiting around being super-cautious about every action (which also makes the spurts of action that much less exciting, because they're pre-determined.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
@Matt1128Y
good post
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD
Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE
Waiting on: Lost Ark
Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
With exception of 5. from OP, I do not agree with anything.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
this
So the fact there are people incompatible with you is a 'game problem'? what?
Have some RL friends play with you or join like-minded people.
Community is something that you can fix in the majority of MMOs (ignore button, guild/outfit function). I fail to see how this is a 'game problem'. ?_?
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
1. You only get combat classes to choose from.
2. Crafting excludes anything that does't involve combat.
3. You can get anywhere in the entire game in 5 minutes or less.
4. All your items except armor and weapons are just icons in a bag.
5. Your character leaves absolutely zero imprint on the game world.
6. Devs have no idea what RP is. They just make a server or two and call them "rp" and think theyve done their job. So wrong.
4. is an excellent point.
6. is not entirely true. Most of the old generation of devs are old P&P players and they are very knowledged about RPing. But a lot of the later devs seems rather clueless, I wish the devs could take an evning of a week or so and play some fiffrent P&P games, it would help the genre a lot.
6. is not entirely true. Most of the old generation of devs are old P&P players and they are very knowledged about RPing. But a lot of the later devs seems rather clueless, I wish the devs could take an evning of a week or so and play some fiffrent P&P games, it would help the genre a lot.
Of course I give props to the original generation. But the modern day mmorpgs devs could definitely take some notes about how to roleplay.
The point, though, is that the game only has to exist for those who would enjoy that playstyle. And there a lot of us out there... and slowly becoming more vocal about it, based on the increased activity I'm seeing about such topics.
You talk about it forming a "clique-like" population.... Why such a negative connotation (assuming it was meant as one)? I'd call it "people who enjoy the type of gameplay those games provide". Why can't those people have a game they enjoy as well, without being regarded as "a clique"?
And Aion has *not* faded into nothingness. It's not very big over here because it's decidedly developed more for an Eastern playerbase (go figure right?). It's doing quite well in its Eastern market however. Again, Aion is not a "clique" game... it's a game designed for a certain portion of the MMO community... and that portion happens to greatly enjoy it.
Generally speaking here...
One problem I see is how so many have been "taught" to believe that the only way a MMO can be "successful and worth existing" is if it appeals to "everyone" - especially them. Look at how "offended" people get when they find a new MMO being announced isn't designed around their preferred playstyle. They lash out on forums like these, insult the developers, insult the people who like the game, and act like they're somehow being personally slighted. Even though there are myriad MMOs on offer that provide exactly the gameplay they enjoy, they're outraged at the thought of one existing that doesn't.
People need to get over themselves, drop the entitled "it's all about me" attitudes and stop expecting the MMO world to revolve around what *they* like and what *they* want. There's millions of people playing MMOs. Among those millions are many different tastes, styles and preferences. There is absolutely nothing wrong with games being developed specifically to cater to those tastes, styles and preferences.
Everything does not have to be "for everyone".
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
QFT.
I've noticed the same thing. It also extends to player views. If you declare a preference for a game experience that isn't the one I want, then you are deficient in some way. You're hardcore, a carebear, a griefer, whatever. Hyperbole and ad hominem attacks abound.
Go is complex because the state base is huge. The core theory is also just math.
And the claim that math is "easy" is just wrong. Scientist have been working for decades to perfect stochastic modeling & optimization. And just look at the number of variables you have in optimizing wow dps? It is only easy if you can do it without help.