Too many sandboxes are created these days by indy companies that have an imagination that's too big for their budget.
What indy companies need to do is nail down a solid, although basic, form of gameplay that can be built upon in future content updates and expansion packs instead of trying to fit in every feature (and usually failing) at launch.
Pretty much this.
One of the reasons this happens to them, is that there are so many MMOs these days, that things like a mail system, an auction house, etc. etc are considered must-have features in every game. So the company has to build all those things before it can even start to imagine it`s vision.
I can't imagine that basic features such as merchant interaction, mail, auction houses are a large part of development time. All those things are really just datbase interaction with some exploit protection (Anyone remember in FFXI when you could time a sender's cancel with a recipient's receipt of an item and dupe the item? A large part of the reason that game's economy was never balanced was early players exploited it heavily and Square Enix never did anything about it besides eventually stopping the glitch).
I think people trivialize the amount of work that goes into creating the bottom floor of the mmorpg building because they spend so much time seeing them and playing through those basic features. It's like seeing objects in front of you. You forget how long it took your brain to actually be able to discern people's faces and what they meant because you do it all the time.*
Just because a feature is basic to the game or the process appears simple to the end user doesn't mean that it's trivial to implement in code. Especially since there is no standard "base" mmorpg platform. Even if the design is based on an existing system, the code is largely from scratch. The game engines that exist do not have a built in chat server, auction house system, vendor system, etc. You have to write all of them, and then populate them.
* This obviously doesn't apply to the blind, but I couldn't come up with a good analogy that worked for everyone, everywhere.
Oh sure, but there are some things, like basic database interaction that are just fundamental to being a programmer. It becomes simple to do and does not, I'm sure, take a bulk of development time because it's not nearly as difficult, I'd imagine, as designing hit tables that work both ways (hit/miss/crit/dodge/parry). It's similar to building a house. There are things you take for granted in even the most complex building designs. You can be pretty sure they're there and are certainly not the bulk of the construction effort.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug. 12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Originally posted by Deathofsage Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by Deathofsage
Originally posted by SwampRob
Originally posted by SuperXero89
Too many sandboxes are created these days by indy companies that have an imagination that's too big for their budget. What indy companies need to do is nail down a solid, although basic, form of gameplay that can be built upon in future content updates and expansion packs instead of trying to fit in every feature (and usually failing) at launch.
Pretty much this. One of the reasons this happens to them, is that there are so many MMOs these days, that things like a mail system, an auction house, etc. etc are considered must-have features in every game. So the company has to build all those things before it can even start to imagine it`s vision.
I can't imagine that basic features such as merchant interaction, mail, auction houses are a large part of development time. All those things are really just datbase interaction with some exploit protection (Anyone remember in FFXI when you could time a sender's cancel with a recipient's receipt of an item and dupe the item? A large part of the reason that game's economy was never balanced was early players exploited it heavily and Square Enix never did anything about it besides eventually stopping the glitch).
I think people trivialize the amount of work that goes into creating the bottom floor of the mmorpg building because they spend so much time seeing them and playing through those basic features. It's like seeing objects in front of you. You forget how long it took your brain to actually be able to discern people's faces and what they meant because you do it all the time.*
Just because a feature is basic to the game or the process appears simple to the end user doesn't mean that it's trivial to implement in code. Especially since there is no standard "base" mmorpg platform. Even if the design is based on an existing system, the code is largely from scratch. The game engines that exist do not have a built in chat server, auction house system, vendor system, etc. You have to write all of them, and then populate them.
* This obviously doesn't apply to the blind, but I couldn't come up with a good analogy that worked for everyone, everywhere. Oh sure, but there are some things, like basic database interaction that are just fundamental to being a programmer. It becomes simple to do and does not, I'm sure, take a bulk of development time because it's not nearly as difficult, I'd imagine, as designing hit tables that work both ways (hit/miss/crit/dodge/parry). It's similar to building a house. There are things you take for granted in even the most complex building designs. You can be pretty sure they're there and are certainly not the bulk of the construction effort.
Many (most?) houses by having the walls and roof frames constructed off-site. The frames are shipped to the construction site and assembled. MMORPG developers get a bunch of two by fours and have to put everything together at the construction site while they are building the house. Even though they know how everything is supposed to go together, it just takes longer than getting constructed walls and putting them up. You're right though, it's not the bulk of time spent creating games.
The models and textures take 2 to 6 times longer using the current generation of game engines compared to the last generation of game engines. That's if your people are experienced and have some training with the tools and game engines. I wouldn't even hazard a guess how much longer it takes to create a zone for the Unreal 3 engine or Hero Engine versus creating a zone for the 2D Sprite based Ultima Online engine. Drawing 64x64 bitmaps is a LOT faster than creating a fully rigged model that uses several 256x256* or larger textures.
It just takes a long time to do and even longer to do well. You can't do it alone in your garage in your spare time.
* This is actually pretty small. This is the size of the textures used in Torchlight 1.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
It is but I havent played it yet, so I cannot comment on its merits or shortfalls.
Some on the videos floating around on Youtube make this look like the "polished sandbox" everyone's been waiting for.
Well seems intresting but fully sandbox i still have my doubs classes lineage2 looking it seems lvls and xp maybe hibrid?
Terible character designe why have to be all korean mmos have same look as lineage2 bah:(
Why always these damn pale skinny elfs bah:(
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Originally posted by Evasia Originally posted by DarthMooska
Originally posted by orsonstfu
Originally posted by DarthMooska
Is ArcheAge not a sandbox game?
It is but I havent played it yet, so I cannot comment on its merits or shortfalls. Some on the videos floating around on Youtube make this look like the "polished sandbox" everyone's been waiting for. Well seems intresting but fully sandbox i still have my doubs classes lineage2 looking it seems lvls and xp maybe hibrid? Terible character designe why have to be all korean mmos have same look as lineage2 bah:( Why always these damn pale skinny elfs bah:(
Because they're made for a Korean audience?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I think the problem isn't the budget but rather the knowledge and ability of the team. Indie teams consistently repeat mistakes of the past. Others suffer from a horrible sense of false authority syndrome, which is in some cases as bad as it being a one-man team who thinks that since he has knowledge of one aspect of game design he is an authority of any kind on creating games as a whole.
This is all compounded by the audience never really doing any reesearch or not looking at the countless red flags that show up along the way and getting hypes over reading what they want to read rather than actually thinking about whether it makes sense when reality is applied to it. This invariable triggers further cockiness on the part of the 'indie developer' and usually results in a series of posts, announcements or devblogs that never would have gone out if anyone remotely savvy about PR or marketing was given a looksee at it first. In the end, wish lists are pitched as feature lists, false expectations are created and you get the half-assed crap that we currently see delivered. As the consumers, it's partically our fault for letting half these piece of crap get out of beta at all, let alone go to release.
But then there's the ones that actually pull it off well that revive our false sense of hope in the sub-genre of MMOs. I'd say Darkfall, despite those that rabidly rally against it, pulled off a heck of a lot and released a lot more stable and working content than people give it credit for. Both ship warfare and flying multi-man tanks with flamethrowers come to mind as the serious ooh-aah content of sandbox PVP games that Darkfall actually delivered while otehr games are trying to figure out how to get a two mobs to appear on the screen simultaneously.
Some warning signs: If the feature list reads like a wishlist, it's a wishlist. If the devs use the experience of their team as a selling point or reason why you should give them credence but have excuses for why they won't name the members on the team, there either is none or their touted credentials are BS. If the dev has never worked on a game before, that could very well be a sign that we're using the term 'dev' rather loosely here.
It seems like there's a high ratio of devs failing, but that could very well be that we are attributing the title of 'dev' to a lot more people than it actually applies to.
Of course you would know who is doing what since you sit in another circle that you mod and admin the board. You know exactly who is doing what so why criptic the message so much? Your actions here speak a great deal more there.
Oh sure, but there are some things, like basic database interaction that are just fundamental to being a programmer. It becomes simple to do and does not, I'm sure, take a bulk of development time because it's not nearly as difficult, I'd imagine, as designing hit tables that work both ways (hit/miss/crit/dodge/parry). It's similar to building a house. There are things you take for granted in even the most complex building designs. You can be pretty sure they're there and are certainly not the bulk of the construction effort.
Many (most?) houses by having the walls and roof frames constructed off-site. The frames are shipped to the construction site and assembled. MMORPG developers get a bunch of two by fours and have to put everything together at the construction site while they are building the house. Even though they know how everything is supposed to go together, it just takes longer than getting constructed walls and putting them up. You're right though, it's not the bulk of time spent creating games.
The models and textures take 2 to 6 times longer using the current generation of game engines compared to the last generation of game engines. That's if your people are experienced and have some training with the tools and game engines. I wouldn't even hazard a guess how much longer it takes to create a zone for the Unreal 3 engine or Hero Engine versus creating a zone for the 2D Sprite based Ultima Online engine. Drawing 64x64 bitmaps is a LOT faster than creating a fully rigged model that uses several 256x256* or larger textures.
It just takes a long time to do and even longer to do well. You can't do it alone in your garage in your spare time.
* This is actually pretty small. This is the size of the textures used in Torchlight 1.
If it takes me 5 hours to code something, throwing 4 more people isn't going to reduce that time to an 1 hour.
More people means you have to segment the code which means you need to have a basic design doc and everyone needs to stick to it. And that's just one person's 5 hour code.
Vast majority of programmers I deal with don't stickly stick to the design doc and that includes me. >_>
I'm more of a DB / UI person so my programming skills are limited but in the majority of the cases I've been involved in, the design doc is more or less a 'we'll follow until 6 months before a release date when everything is thrown out the window to get it 'done'.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Your right, they could be just as polished as today, however the genre was not launched by polished games. When they launched they were so bug filled that they made Vanguards launch look good. If they launched like that today, they would be relegated to bin 13 very quickly. But they did have many compelling points.
And I found EQ to be just as themeparky (if thats a word) as WoW or many other games today.
Venge
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
There is a good polished sandbox with a high user base with meaningful gameplay and feels complete, and not pay to beta. Its called EVE ONLINE... with darkfall in 2nd place.... Besides those two games, I dont think there is a single sandbox on the market thats not pay to beta or in beta or some sort of internal development. I know it sucks to admit defeat, but NO SUCH games exsist... I have spent months searching for alternatives to EVE and can never ever find one. EVE or darkfall, pick your poison
There is a good polished sandbox with a high user base with meaningful gameplay and feels complete, and not pay to beta. Its called EVE ONLINE... with darkfall in 2nd place.... Besides those two games, I dont think there is a single sandbox on the market thats not pay to beta or in beta or some sort of internal development. I know it sucks to admit defeat, but NO SUCH games exsist... I have spent months searching for alternatives to EVE and can never ever find one. EVE or darkfall, pick your poison
I've got nothing but respect for those who play EVE. I fell off the initial learning curve, despite having vast interest in the world (read most of the EVE chronicals) CCP created.
But for heaven's sake, that learning curve is just diabolical!
While other MMOs have bugs, I have a few co-workers who have 'quit' (i'm sure they will go back since they can't stop talking about 'cynos(?)' and 'hot dropping') due to the desync bug though. Think one of the guys lost a ship 3 hours after he logged off.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I think the problem isn't the budget but rather the knowledge and ability of the team. Indie teams consistently repeat mistakes of the past. Others suffer from a horrible sense of false authority syndrome, which is in some cases as bad as it being a one-man team who thinks that since he has knowledge of one aspect of game design he is an authority of any kind on creating games as a whole.
This is all compounded by the audience never really doing any reesearch or not looking at the countless red flags that show up along the way and getting hypes over reading what they want to read rather than actually thinking about whether it makes sense when reality is applied to it. This invariable triggers further cockiness on the part of the 'indie developer' and usually results in a series of posts, announcements or devblogs that never would have gone out if anyone remotely savvy about PR or marketing was given a looksee at it first. In the end, wish lists are pitched as feature lists, false expectations are created and you get the half-assed crap that we currently see delivered. As the consumers, it's partically our fault for letting half these piece of crap get out of beta at all, let alone go to release.
But then there's the ones that actually pull it off well that revive our false sense of hope in the sub-genre of MMOs. I'd say Darkfall, despite those that rabidly rally against it, pulled off a heck of a lot and released a lot more stable and working content than people give it credit for. Both ship warfare and flying multi-man tanks with flamethrowers come to mind as the serious ooh-aah content of sandbox PVP games that Darkfall actually delivered while otehr games are trying to figure out how to get a two mobs to appear on the screen simultaneously.
Some warning signs: If the feature list reads like a wishlist, it's a wishlist. If the devs use the experience of their team as a selling point or reason why you should give them credence but have excuses for why they won't name the members on the team, there either is none or their touted credentials are BS. If the dev has never worked on a game before, that could very well be a sign that we're using the term 'dev' rather loosely here.
It seems like there's a high ratio of devs failing, but that could very well be that we are attributing the title of 'dev' to a lot more people than it actually applies to.
Of course you would know who is doing what since you sit in another circle that you mod and admin the board. You know exactly who is doing what so why criptic the message so much? Your actions here speak a great deal more there.
I can only assume you are talking about me being a mod of MMORPGMaker.com, but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything here. Actually, some of the games that I see discussed over there - The Repopulation, Foundations of Hope, Gods and Idols, and several others - seem like they have a solid focus and decent direction to them. I'm anxious to see them pull off those games, anxious to see one of those groups become the next Turbine or CCP.
There's no shortage of indie games coming over the next few years. Like rock bands, only a small percentage will get anywhere but the enthusiasm, passion and creativity of them all is fascinating to watch.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I can only assume you are talking about me being a mod of MMORPGMaker.com, but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything here. Actually, some of the games that I see discussed over there - The Repopulation, Foundations of Hope, Gods and Idols, and several others - seem like they have a solid focus and decent direction to them. I'm anxious to see them pull off those games, anxious to see one of those groups become the next Turbine or CCP.
There's no shortage of indie games coming over the next few years. Like rock bands, only a small percentage will get anywhere but the enthusiasm, passion and creativity of them all is fascinating to watch.
I consider what you typed an attack directed at me since I too sit in that circle. I have thus removed myself from the board there.
As for building a sandbox MMO or a MMORPG for that matter, I think the public is not ready for radical ideas. Most have a negative input. They want the same pixelated rehash of the one they try to dethrone using the same methodology that is proven to work.
At least one listens and I think maybe SW will advance it a little.
These day people want fast pace action oriented no brainers for mmo's thats mainly themeparks and devs/publishers want $$$ so we get every week same old released themparks down our throats.
So dont hold your breath seeing soon a good sandbox made:(
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
I think one of the core problems in making a popular sandbox, is that the players want very different features in their sandbox game.
Themeparks are pretty much the same. LOTRO, WoW, EQ1 and 2, Aion, Rift, WAR, etc. do it pretty much the same with some minor differences in features, artwork, lore, etc.
you build a character, usually with levels. You go on quests, level up, collect gear, maybe do some crafting. you can tweak it this way and that, but that's the basics.
Sandboxes are very different. Look at EVE, Darkfall, and SWG. I don't think they are as similar, as the themeparks I listed.
Let's just take one feature, FFA PvP.
that's a way to splinter the sandbox crowd instantly.
If you don't add FFA PvP, some will say it's not even a sandbox. If you do add FFA PvP, some will say it's not a sandbox, or if it is, they won't play it.
then you get the skills vs class players. Some will say it's not a sandbox if it has classes (I disagree).
And some will not be happy even if they get skills they can spend skill points on, they must have a use it to improve it system.
Some won't be happy unless all items in the game are crafted. Adn the list goes on and on.
The Sandbox advocates just break down into much, much smaller niches than the players that like themeparks.
Comments
Oh sure, but there are some things, like basic database interaction that are just fundamental to being a programmer. It becomes simple to do and does not, I'm sure, take a bulk of development time because it's not nearly as difficult, I'd imagine, as designing hit tables that work both ways (hit/miss/crit/dodge/parry). It's similar to building a house. There are things you take for granted in even the most complex building designs. You can be pretty sure they're there and are certainly not the bulk of the construction effort.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Dang it! I logged in just to reply too! I had a whole house construction analogy going and everything...
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Dang it! I logged in just to reply too! I had a whole house construction analogy going and everything...
Oops. You are the person I thought you were. :-)
Be right back.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Pretty much this.
One of the reasons this happens to them, is that there are so many MMOs these days, that things like a mail system, an auction house, etc. etc are considered must-have features in every game. So the company has to build all those things before it can even start to imagine it`s vision.
I can't imagine that basic features such as merchant interaction, mail, auction houses are a large part of development time. All those things are really just datbase interaction with some exploit protection (Anyone remember in FFXI when you could time a sender's cancel with a recipient's receipt of an item and dupe the item? A large part of the reason that game's economy was never balanced was early players exploited it heavily and Square Enix never did anything about it besides eventually stopping the glitch).
I think people trivialize the amount of work that goes into creating the bottom floor of the mmorpg building because they spend so much time seeing them and playing through those basic features. It's like seeing objects in front of you. You forget how long it took your brain to actually be able to discern people's faces and what they meant because you do it all the time.*
Just because a feature is basic to the game or the process appears simple to the end user doesn't mean that it's trivial to implement in code. Especially since there is no standard "base" mmorpg platform. Even if the design is based on an existing system, the code is largely from scratch. The game engines that exist do not have a built in chat server, auction house system, vendor system, etc. You have to write all of them, and then populate them.
* This obviously doesn't apply to the blind, but I couldn't come up with a good analogy that worked for everyone, everywhere.
Oh sure, but there are some things, like basic database interaction that are just fundamental to being a programmer. It becomes simple to do and does not, I'm sure, take a bulk of development time because it's not nearly as difficult, I'd imagine, as designing hit tables that work both ways (hit/miss/crit/dodge/parry). It's similar to building a house. There are things you take for granted in even the most complex building designs. You can be pretty sure they're there and are certainly not the bulk of the construction effort.
Many (most?) houses by having the walls and roof frames constructed off-site. The frames are shipped to the construction site and assembled. MMORPG developers get a bunch of two by fours and have to put everything together at the construction site while they are building the house. Even though they know how everything is supposed to go together, it just takes longer than getting constructed walls and putting them up. You're right though, it's not the bulk of time spent creating games.
The models and textures take 2 to 6 times longer using the current generation of game engines compared to the last generation of game engines. That's if your people are experienced and have some training with the tools and game engines. I wouldn't even hazard a guess how much longer it takes to create a zone for the Unreal 3 engine or Hero Engine versus creating a zone for the 2D Sprite based Ultima Online engine. Drawing 64x64 bitmaps is a LOT faster than creating a fully rigged model that uses several 256x256* or larger textures.
It just takes a long time to do and even longer to do well. You can't do it alone in your garage in your spare time.
* This is actually pretty small. This is the size of the textures used in Torchlight 1.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Well seems intresting but fully sandbox i still have my doubs classes lineage2 looking it seems lvls and xp maybe hibrid?
Terible character designe why have to be all korean mmos have same look as lineage2 bah:(
Why always these damn pale skinny elfs bah:(
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Some on the videos floating around on Youtube make this look like the "polished sandbox" everyone's been waiting for.
Well seems intresting but fully sandbox i still have my doubs classes lineage2 looking it seems lvls and xp maybe hibrid?
Terible character designe why have to be all korean mmos have same look as lineage2 bah:(
Why always these damn pale skinny elfs bah:(
Because they're made for a Korean audience?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Of course you would know who is doing what since you sit in another circle that you mod and admin the board. You know exactly who is doing what so why criptic the message so much? Your actions here speak a great deal more there.
If it takes me 5 hours to code something, throwing 4 more people isn't going to reduce that time to an 1 hour.
More people means you have to segment the code which means you need to have a basic design doc and everyone needs to stick to it. And that's just one person's 5 hour code.
Vast majority of programmers I deal with don't stickly stick to the design doc and that includes me. >_>
I'm more of a DB / UI person so my programming skills are limited but in the majority of the cases I've been involved in, the design doc is more or less a 'we'll follow until 6 months before a release date when everything is thrown out the window to get it 'done'.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Your right, they could be just as polished as today, however the genre was not launched by polished games. When they launched they were so bug filled that they made Vanguards launch look good. If they launched like that today, they would be relegated to bin 13 very quickly. But they did have many compelling points.
And I found EQ to be just as themeparky (if thats a word) as WoW or many other games today.
Venge
There is a good polished sandbox with a high user base with meaningful gameplay and feels complete, and not pay to beta. Its called EVE ONLINE... with darkfall in 2nd place.... Besides those two games, I dont think there is a single sandbox on the market thats not pay to beta or in beta or some sort of internal development. I know it sucks to admit defeat, but NO SUCH games exsist... I have spent months searching for alternatives to EVE and can never ever find one. EVE or darkfall, pick your poison
I've got nothing but respect for those who play EVE. I fell off the initial learning curve, despite having vast interest in the world (read most of the EVE chronicals) CCP created.
But for heaven's sake, that learning curve is just diabolical!
While other MMOs have bugs, I have a few co-workers who have 'quit' (i'm sure they will go back since they can't stop talking about 'cynos(?)' and 'hot dropping') due to the desync bug though. Think one of the guys lost a ship 3 hours after he logged off.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I wish I could get into EVE.
But I can't.
And any other sandbox I've tried was... well... nauseating.
And now these production-line-developed theme parks are starting to bore me as well.
Here's to hoping for a way out of the rut.
I can only assume you are talking about me being a mod of MMORPGMaker.com, but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything here. Actually, some of the games that I see discussed over there - The Repopulation, Foundations of Hope, Gods and Idols, and several others - seem like they have a solid focus and decent direction to them. I'm anxious to see them pull off those games, anxious to see one of those groups become the next Turbine or CCP.
There's no shortage of indie games coming over the next few years. Like rock bands, only a small percentage will get anywhere but the enthusiasm, passion and creativity of them all is fascinating to watch.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I consider what you typed an attack directed at me since I too sit in that circle. I have thus removed myself from the board there.
As for building a sandbox MMO or a MMORPG for that matter, I think the public is not ready for radical ideas. Most have a negative input. They want the same pixelated rehash of the one they try to dethrone using the same methodology that is proven to work.
At least one listens and I think maybe SW will advance it a little.
These day people want fast pace action oriented no brainers for mmo's thats mainly themeparks and devs/publishers want $$$ so we get every week same old released themparks down our throats.
So dont hold your breath seeing soon a good sandbox made:(
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
I think one of the core problems in making a popular sandbox, is that the players want very different features in their sandbox game.
Themeparks are pretty much the same. LOTRO, WoW, EQ1 and 2, Aion, Rift, WAR, etc. do it pretty much the same with some minor differences in features, artwork, lore, etc.
you build a character, usually with levels. You go on quests, level up, collect gear, maybe do some crafting. you can tweak it this way and that, but that's the basics.
Sandboxes are very different. Look at EVE, Darkfall, and SWG. I don't think they are as similar, as the themeparks I listed.
Let's just take one feature, FFA PvP.
that's a way to splinter the sandbox crowd instantly.
If you don't add FFA PvP, some will say it's not even a sandbox. If you do add FFA PvP, some will say it's not a sandbox, or if it is, they won't play it.
then you get the skills vs class players. Some will say it's not a sandbox if it has classes (I disagree).
And some will not be happy even if they get skills they can spend skill points on, they must have a use it to improve it system.
Some won't be happy unless all items in the game are crafted. Adn the list goes on and on.
The Sandbox advocates just break down into much, much smaller niches than the players that like themeparks.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem