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World v World PvP: What objectives would you like to see?
Master10K
Member Posts: 3,065
Now that the week long PAX east video/info dump is over, we can return to doing what we do best... thinking up crap. And the crap I just thought up was an idea that spawned from this thread in GW2guru.
So basically we know that GW2 is planned to be shipped with 2 forms of PvP: Structured 5v5 team-based PvP for PUGs and tight-nipped groups, plus huge World PvP where 3 similar sized servers duke it out for World supremacy. We kinda know that World PvP will hopefully be set in a large seperate world with; keep sieges, supply runs and general ganking but what other objectives would you like to see and specifically, how would you score them?
So let's start things off by saying "1 kill" gets your side "1 point" and after the week long battle, the side with the most points wins.
Then I would like to see something similar to:
- Capture keep = 100 pts.
- Maintain keep = 1pt/min.
- Build team waypoint (in the initial neutral parts of the map) = 25 pts.
- Destroy enemy waypoint = 50 pts.
- Capture mine/lumber mill = 25 pts
- Escort supply carevan = 50 pts.
- Disrupt enemy supply = 75 pts.
That's all I can think up... feel free to share your own thoughts, objectives or scores.
Comments
Well starting off with more or less what the WvWvW includes:
1. 3 Servers
2. Week-long battles on maps between the servers that rotate and are matched appropriately.
3. 5 different maps? Each map has 4 areas: 1 home area per server with a connection area between the 3?
4. Different size Battle Field Objectives for 1-person, fireteam, squad, patrol, platoon and infantry size??
5. These will be dispersed around the map and have knock-on effects for larger BOs
6. Keeps and siege equipment etc and some NPCs knocking about that will help or hinder different factions
7. Hopefully some underwater battles (!)
...
As to the points system that's tricky but will include:
1. Pks
2. BOs
3. % territory
4. Duration of control
and probably a few more measures...............
SUGGESTIONS:
A. Some stoicastic and dangerous events in the Mists would shake things up in a great way imo so that even winning servers would still be shaking in their boots to try and carry off with the complete victory.
B. Geological terrain that can be used for ambushes and massacres etc. eg falling boulders and so on
C. Fortify positions maybe
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
It's really hard to imagine how it will be with such limited information. I'm guessing I wouldn't even help if we had more information tho since they are probably re-doing the system every week with all their iterations and stuff.
hmm, what would I enjoy doing in WvW... my experiance comes mostly from WAR and all I can say is that large scale is mostly not as fun as small scale. And besides, as a thief, how can I move around and dodge stuff if there are 100 opponents doing AoE?
Maybe they should have scaling objectives so that the more people are online, the more objectives pop up to spread out people. It just feels like the GW2 combat system isn't made for 75vs75vs75 but rather no more than 10vs10vs10. But what do I know, maybe large scale is completely awesome in GW2.
There's times when you just want to run off into some woods somewhere and ambush players... or a small team of ppl get set off a chain-reaction that blazes into a full on invasion etc. Dead bodies everywhere - good times.
I think 3 factions, various sized BOs and timed rotations of server match ups and keeps with well designed maps could make it a great pvp mode.
As for the scoring system that's tricky as hell for sure but knocking another player or players off a cliff should be double pts. ^ ^
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
NO.. NO...NO!!!
and
NO!!!
Please no "points".. No "scores".. no.. no.. no!
We should be fighting because it is a WAR. The objectives should further the war effort. Holding objectives gives a buff.. exp bonus.. gold bonus.. etc. Not points.
We should be fighting over control of some sort of RvR dungeon ala Darkness Falls from DAoC. In this dungeon should be some great encounters/loot that makes it worth the struggle of war.
Honestly.. if I see it shape up as some sort of E-Sport with points and scores it will go from the top of my BUY list to the "Never play" list.
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All I have to go on is Alliance Battles in GW, but based on what ANet has already implemented it should be something similar to what you've described.
Except I doubt that "disrupt/destroy" points will be assigned.
Chances are, every objective under a world's control will give points at certain intervals. Caping it will give you its points in the next tick, but not necessarily award any points immediately.
Same with disrupting supply, as in Jade Quarr/For Aspenwood. Killing resource carriers will only keep a side from gaining points from resource delivery, it won't give points to the attacking team.
I'm kind of hoping there will be some kind of elimination format though. One side losing a keep is pretty much game over, just shows how discoordinated and ill prepared they are.
As for world pvp I would love to see:
- Resources available too those that hold/control the area completely (several strategic points/cities)
- Dungeons available only to those that hold/control the area completely (several strategic points/cities)
- Access to auctionhouses/shops/mail etc. could be related to what your faction controls (certain strategic points/places)
- Dynamic world faction bonuses depending upon what your faction currently controls
Just to mention some.
It's one way to match up servers and/or allow the conditions of war to dictate players actions so could argue it can be a positive or a negative influence...
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
This sounds great..
The other thing that I think is important and this is not a direct answer, but we have World vs. World PvP in Guild Wars 2. I think that will impact PvE as well. Which is your server shard matched up against two other servers in open world PvP. If you like Dark Age of Camelot, this is, in our minds the next evolution of that. It is something that really drove community and you care about what you are doing on a PVE and PvP side. You care about the people on the server. We think we will have those bonds because your server is matched up against two other servers. So it is just that much more important that you become friends and you bond with the players on your server. So the friends you make through PvE and Dynamic Events, those friends will carry over into World vs. World PvP. You may get out of World vs. World PvP and go back to early zones to do events with new people and help encourage them to join you in the fight for your server to take part in battles and beat the other two. We expect large strong communities on each server and I think PvP will end up affecting PvE because people will work together.” -Colin Johanson (Lead Content Designer)
“Each opposing world starts out with castles, mercenary camps, mines, lumber mills and villages. Separating the starting zones are neutral zones controlled by no one, also containing fortresses, mines, and villages.
The resources gained from mines and lumber mills are used to rebuild walls, create siege engines, and generally defend the team’s fortress.
These territories and control points will confer benefits to the world that controls them; “maybe everyone gets increased energy regeneration or healing rate or enhanced loot drop rate.” Players can gain experience and level their character in World PvP. Guilds will be able to take and hold keeps.“
Putting it into some world faction statistic to show what the faction has at the moment is completely fine, though i agree that points are useless in an MMO, else you might just give the faction points for solo players multigibbing, double, tripple, quadkills, tomahawk kills and so on.
"conditions of war" could easilly be discerned by viewing a control map. The system described by the developers a few posts up ( http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4143242 ) is what i hope they implement. The E-Sport described in the OP would drive me away.
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"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Something like preventing the use of siege engines or catapults in a casttle/city siege by breaking the attacker's supply line. Gank.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Very good points here! ^
Also:
Let it be open and vast and offer many optional personal incentives related to character progression / storylines, crafting nodes, etc.
It has to feel like a natural part of the world with a good balance to risk versus reward most of all. For groups and single players. You want people to be there for other reasons than just the WvWvW battle.
Making something like a themepark RVR lake out of it will make it very similar to WAR's failed pvp concept: point related pve objectives more important than actual pvp (claiming a keep by killing the npc commander for instance), promoting zerg rushing even the smallest objectives and actually promoting avoiding enemy forces, just to complete objectives as fast as possible would be what WAR did wrong in my eyes.
My brand new bloggity blog.
This. I hope GWs 2 isn't headed the way the OP described or I'll be looking for something else I guess. (Though GW1 sort of set the ground work for exactly this sort of direction)
But hey, lots of folks want exactly this, so if that's the way it turns out they'll be quite happy.
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You do bring up some interesting points. I guess my views on player vs. player content is somewhat skewed, because I've come from more competitive games like: Call of Duty (all of them), Super Street Fighter 4 and Starcraft 2.
The idea of giving the side, in control of certain areas of the map, access to certain content or vendors is intriguing but that makes ArenaNet's job that much harder. The mist already has to be large enough to sustain the sizes that ArenaNet hopes to accomodate in World PvP. It will be a lot tougher to design & create enough dungeons or dynamic content, within controllable areas and spread them out, to prevent a clusterf**k of battles happening in one area.
DarkAge of Camelot accomplished this a decade ago and remains the best executed objective based world PvP system I've played. The developers have said they are using DAoC as the model they are building from. I am sure that a company with the resources of ArenaNet can accomplish at least as much as Mythic did 10 years ago...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I completely agree with this, I hope the Mists stays as Colin Johanson describes in your link. We already have the e-sport in the structured 5vs5, we do not need the mists to turn into one too. That would be completely redundant, after all the Mists are supposed to be something completely different for people that like PVP. Why create the mists at all if it is only going to be a larger scale, 5vs5 e-sport, just add that option to structured PVP like 40vs40, and completely remove the Mists.
Like I said I hope ANet sticks to their vision and does not turn the Mists into a large scale e-sport, so our only choice for PVP is structured 5 man e-sport and large scale e-sport.
Well one of the key things about RvR and now WvW is that the numbers can be anything but equal most of the time and now with a third faction (FINALLY!!!) there is potentially even more chaos and randomness... so it could not be too much like an e-sport. Having WHOLE servers to populate the factions is an excellent idea too... this sort of battle needs constant supply of players at all hours; like packing too many rats together into one place they will start fighting each other: A good thing in this game mode.
Anything to avoid stalemates, avoidance, total domination and maps that lead to players using only 10% of the map etc...
Points could cause these problems but could solve them too. What IS to be avoided is a points system that feels totally disinterested in actually making armies of players slaughter each other. How that's implemented is the trick or otherwise scrap points and make it visually obvious that Server 3 (the greens) are in control of more of the map etc...
So it could be a case of "first past the post", cumulative vps, vps controlled and counted after a set time etc and all would affect the dynamic differently...
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Reasons to play the WAR rvr.
Because it is fun (subjective).
To open access to a zone (only interesting for some players and the zone is less important after the latest patches).
Realmpride, to push the other side and take over their city. (This is gone for many reasons, one being it is so easy to take over the city now, it happends many times every day).
The pvp experience grind (to get better gear and have more fun later).
----
Reasons to play GW2 WvWvW:
Fun (hopefully it will be)
Giving server bonus.
Worldpride, to be the best server.
----
What happends to a server that never wins? In WAR a lot of players stop trying.
Anet has already stated that the e-sport PvP will be the 5on5 instances while the WvWvW is reserved for casual PvP. There is no point mixing those two since the original purpose is to give two different PvP experiences.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
As it's 3 servers/factions this should help make battles a lot more interesting and remove some of that snow-ball winners and losers syndrome in WAR.
Also as it is 3 servers the total number of server needs to be divisible by 3 and so servers will be rematched against each other to balance out the eventual winners and losers so that should again help. : )
It's never going to be e-sport and is not intended but act as a step from PvE to PvP for casual players and likely something of a gamemode for players while they wait for expansions for PvE also I guess.
A big question mark is the server transfers, but I can see Guild rising and taking this seriously at some point but again other servers with similar minded guilds will go the same way too.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
The main thing I want to see is the "mists" zone be completely devoted to PvP. I don't want to see monsters or npc guards, or PvE dynamic events. I want the zone to be unambiguously devoted to PvP.
The main mechanic I would like to see is some form of the relic scenario: a player gains control of a relic and their faction earns rewards (whatever these may be) as long as they hold this item. This is often also called murderball, as the point of the mechanic is to kill the person with the relic and get it yourslf. This kind of mechanic does not have to have an end, though an increasing debuff or rolling DoT on the player holding the item would be smart.
The relic can be handed off to another player and the benefits/buffs gained would be generated in the form of an aura around the relic itself. There would be no restriction placed on movement, so the entire zone could be utilised. Big pillar of light generates or pulses from the player with the relic so he can be seen from quite a distance so taking the relic and hiding is not an option.
Warhammer Online had some scenarios using this mechanic and they were amongst the most fun I have had in any MMO (and that is taking into account the atrocious combat of that game).
There are going to be NPCs but I doubt there will be mobs of any kind. The NPCs will be there for objectives such as players having to guard a caravan while it heads to a mine for resources to rebuild forts or other buildings.
God, please never let world PvP turn into "Murderball". Thanks!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
One of the lead designers made a comment regarding the "Mists": If you liked the pvp in Dark Age of Camelot(DAOC), GW2 will be the next evolution of that.
if GW2 is to be the new evolution of Dark Age of Camelot, in regards to "The Mists" pvp content, they really need to take alot into consideration. It seems that its the hole realmpride aspect they want to implement into GW2, but that's only half of what made daocpvp.
I’ve tried listing 5 of the most important aspects of daoc pvp imo:
Realm Points -> Realm Rank -> Realm Abilities:
If you wanna make open world pvp a success, there has to be a personal goal for each player when entering the zone. In DAOC you were given realmpoints for each enemy you killed. The realmpoints gave you a realm rank (The more realm points the higher realm rank), and each rank gave you a point you could spend on realm abilities(passive & active) such as: Purge (instant remove any effect: CC, Dots, disease), MCL(instant mana, while out of combat), Determination(less affected by CC), and class specific realm abilities: Some healers were given instant rezz, some tanks were given extra crit chance, and casters were given MOC(reduced interruption chance). So alongside fighting for your realm you gained extra abilities to withstand more enemies. The first 3 realmranks came pretty easy and it exponentially got harder and harder to gain a new rank, thus making it harder to get new realm abilities.
In GW2 I really hope that the pvp minded utility spells only is obtained trough pvp killing. And if killing NPC's is more important than killing enemy players, WvWvW will fail..
Darkness Falls:
Darkness Falls was a dungeon that belonged to all 3 factions. But, only the faction with the most keeps in the "pvp world zone" had access to the dungeon. Darkness Falls was an awesome place to make money, so pve and pvp players were really interested in having access to the dungeon. So you had to pvp and take keeps to get access to the dungeon. This mix between pve and pvp was awesome, and it really tied pve and pvp players together for a commen goal in pvp. If you were pulling mobs in Darkness Falls at the same time as another faction took over the dungeon, you were not kicked out. Instead you had to flee out the backdoor, or fight your way through the big scar of the opposing faction entering the dungeon.
Roaming competitive Pvp:
In DAOC groups of 8 were often formed and ventured out into the open world pvp area looking for other 8man groups.
You always had this feeling of not knowing what’s around the next corner. You could make sneak and surprise attacks on groups, you could flank enemies and vice versa. The constant feeling of being in a battlezone where anything can happen, at any time, is by far the best way to pvp imo. Players saying that open world pvp isn’t competitive, clearly never tried DAOC open world pvp 8 vs 8.
The realmpoint system made roaming pvp possible. If you solokilled an enemy you were awarded 1000 points. If you, alongside a friendly zerk, killed a solo player you were only awarded 50 points. that meant if you were a casual player you could join the zerk and get less realmpoints for each killed enemy and the competetive roaming groups of 8 vs. 8 got more realm points. BUT, the frequency of realmpoints were often higher in zerk, so it sorta balanced out.
E-sport vs. casual pvp:
Open world pvp as a casual or a competive area, does not have to be a choice that exkludes the other. And for me the structered 5 vs 5 ,as the only competive option, is kinda dull.
In structured pvp you have a countdown and you are operating in confined space. And you know from the beginning of every match: I need to kill 5 players to win this game…
In open world pvp it’s completely different!
Community:
In regard to the hole roaming pvp aspect you need a community that supports this kind of playstyle.
In DAOC it was common on servers to see groups not attacking 2 players/solo fighting each other, and the zerk did not intervene with group vs. group fights. I know this is a contradiction to the "what’s around the next corner?", but the respect for other players fights gave DAOC a really cool feel.
--
I know its alot to ask from GW2, but I have my fingers crossed.. And who knows, GW2 might surprise me with a cool new open world pvp experiene...
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down the leader of the other server and drag him back to your base ^.^