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Experience
psydex
Member Posts: 187
Is Hero's Journey going to have the same experience ideology that Gemstone has? I believe this should be something that is definitely in HJ. It would be completely new to the graphical world. Let me give a small, brief, rundown of how experience is currently absorbed (and I do mean absorbed) through some of simutronics current games.
You don't get the experience from the monster you kill right away. The experience actually goes into a "mind meter" so to speak where it builds up until you're eventually full. You get experience every tick (which is generally every 90 to 120 seconds, I forget which). So pretty much people went out and hunted, and came back to town to rest, or do there business with different vendors.
I like this for several reasons....You're not just sitting out there in the same zone killing things for hours on end, you can take a break while abosbring your experience and go get a soda, do some studying per se. I hope they include this experience system, maybe we could get some feedback from the SIMU-Devs. Btw, I've been playing simutronics games for years...and years...I love the company, the staff, and there ideology. I do hope they keep out the premium services to members who have a little extra money to spend, you know what I mean Devs!! 
Comments
I actually don't know the answer to that question. Imagine, however, that everything I say about design is tenative.... until we get all the parts in and playtest the holy heck out of it there is no "offical" answer to be had. Because we are not going to stick with something if its not geling in the design, doesn't play right, or turns out not to do what we intended.
In my opinion, the real amazing thing about Simutronics games, I believe, is not so much the ideology of design (though I do thank you for recognizing it) but that we empower our GameMasters to be able to have direct control over the game mechanics... in fact they build them to begin with. None of this happens by our engine coders, it is all in the GM hands. So even if we do decide on a direction, say absorb or not absorb... and it turns out wrong.... they can adjust it, scrap it, whatever.
To make this possible we invested three years in building the GM tool (called HeroBlade and the magic coding sause called HeroScript Language or HSL) and making sure that they had power. And for those of you who are not famliar with Simutronics games... our GMs come from the ranks of our players so they have a long and devoted love for what they are working on. In the case of a new title like HJ, our first wave of GMs were some of our ace GMs from GemStone and DragonRealms.
-- David
<< Is Hero's Journey going to have the same experience ideology that Gemstone has? >>
That method is interesting, and does come with some nice benefits, but the method of gaining the experience is still heavily focused on killing creatures. I certainly don't mind, but I think I would prefer to see the focus on the adventure.
More experience for successfully completing an adventure, opposed to killing everything.
I like to think this solves a number of issues, such as no need for long hours spent repeatedly killing things. Other types of characters that normally aren't best at hunting are just as viable as those who are good at killing things. Other methods -- rather than just a lot of killing -- used for completing the adventure might provide more experience too.
Anyway, not like this is a new concept by any means, just not typically used in computer fantasy RPGs. It will be interesting to see which direction the new crop of games under development go with such design issues. If not the fantasy RPGs, I like to think at least Star Trek Online will be designed along these lines.
Oh yeah, I forgot to add at least one more reason for focusing on the adventure for experience. At least I thought it important enough to add anyway.
Suddenly the non-combat skills are far more important than they use to be.
The best character for combat may not be the best character for completing every adventure.
Well, when you're trying to put "R" back into the "MMORPG", you have to understand that the character and the player can be viewed as both two seperate entities, and one being.
In my own perfect world, all of our adventures would require some amount of wit and creativity to solve or finish. Unfortunately, while characters could increase in whatever "stats" or "skills" or "abilities" we associated with wit and creativity, most players can't.
You can roleplay a mega-genius character, but that's not going to help you solve a puzzle that requires a mega-genius player to figure out.
So, it all comes down to balance and options. Let each player/character or group of player/characters tackle the obstacles in whatever manner is most rewarding for them.
We just have to be clever enough to provide those optional paths in our adventure designs to allow for the most enjoyment to the widest cross-section of the community.
Let me know if that all sounds like gibberish and I'll try to explain a bit more. <g>
Getting to your actual point, I agree that it seems too little emphasis is placed on heroic qualities that are non-combatant these days.
But hey, it's fun to swing a sword and kill the monster. The trick is to make it just as fun to con the monster with quick words, or trick him into destroying himself, or manipulate the environment to remove the threat of that monster, etc...
Skippy
I certainly don't mind, but I think I would prefer to see the focus on the adventure.
I'll just offer some of my personal experience with GS's Experience System. For major statistics, there is a stat called Logic. Players with higher Logic values have a higher capacity for their mind before they can't gain any more experience, and they gain experience faster. There are also classes called Empaths or Clerics which can use the meditate ability (Empaths for sure, but I'm not certain if Clerics can). Anyway, meditating for Empaths helps them gain experience even faster than other classes.
Also, there are different methods of gaining experience. For anyone with a good lockpicking skill, they can sit around and pick locks all day if they want and if the business is good. This gives them a bit of experience for each lock they pick.
There are, again, Empaths who can transfer wounds from one player to the other and gain experience from doing so I believe. There are also jobs for newcomers to do - like carrying messages back and forth from town hall to other places in town. When you're starting out, this fills your mind quite quickly - just as much as hunting - and you get fair wages from your work.
And there is of course hunting. This is what most people prefer (excluding Empaths and Rogues). Most Empaths you just see around town, healing people. And Rogues sometimes choose to pick for a living or else hunt once in a while.
There is also the Warrior Thrak who instructs newcomers if you happen to find him in the Raging Thrak Inn. I usually go to him with each of my new characters and talk to him. I don't listen to him any more since I know what he's going to say, but I answer each of his questions right in the end and I get a good deal of experience - this experience is added quickly to your level and you don't have to drain it from your mind.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
Well, I won't deny that killing creatures is a big thing. But it is not the ONLY thing. Here's a design flash... how about creatues you don't kill? Creatures that are actually part of a bigger picture in the world. Perhaps ones you cooporate with to accomplish something.
Why are all creatures in MMORPGs just walking bags of exp and loot? Why even bother making different 3D models for them? They should just be a model of a bag with a money sign on it for all they are worth.
Prepare to have that paradigm soundly and deservidly shattered.
-- David
Waht was that flying whale?
Oleofische (windwhale) in the May screenshots.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
I agree. As a GM I often was a bit concerned I would some day face a player who wasn't to bright trying to roleplay a genius. The character can have an 18 intelligence, but that doesn't make the player any smarter. I figured the only way to deal with that situation would be to provide that player with more hints/tips. I suppose something similar could be done with computer games, but I can't think of any that have tried it yet.
True, killing things will always be a major part of such games. I think a lot of folks just feel the alternatives have been lacking in the past. Sneaking through the adventure to accomplish the objective without killing anything is unusual, but it would be nice to see such options. In addition, by allowing for other alternatives, numerous skills that often are overlooked or considered useless would then have more value.
But I'm sure you guys know all this. Hopefully the options will be plentiful and we'll all have a lot of fun trying to successfully complete adventures in a variety of imaginative ways.
[quote]Originally posted by NSXDavid
Well, I won't deny that killing creatures is a big thing. But it is not the ONLY thing. Here's a design flash... how about creatues you don't kill? Creatures that are actually part of a bigger picture in the world. Perhaps ones you cooporate with to accomplish something.
Why are all creatures in MMORPGs just walking bags of exp and loot? Why even bother making different 3D models for them? They should just be a model of a bag with a money sign on it for all they are worth.
Prepare to have that paradigm soundly and deservidly shattered.
-- David[/b][/quote]
Excellent points. I've read posts on various message boards saying similar things. Of course usually the complaint is the creatures are dropping things they shouldn't have and/or the creatures aren't using some of the weapons/items they are dropping that would have helped them in battle.
I look forward to seeing the paradigm shattered.
Good luck!
Why killing mobs is a big thing? That's a good question. The answer is you wont and you cant side-track yourself too much to do anything else than leveling, that's why. And that's why level-based games suck.
Another turn-off of level-based games is that you are always a passers-by, you never return to the same map area along your leveling path, you grind and go and grind and go, the cities/dungeons and whatsoever you just go there when you are level 10, you never go back there in level 20, they are noob cities/dungeions to you.
How would you develop your personal experience if you are always a passers-by and never return? It's not a virtual world you are living in, it's just some level maps for your to beat and then leave. I'd rather play my console diablo than to play such a kind a so-called mmorpg with no depth at all.
Level 35 in Lineage2 and quited, level 10 in EQ2 and quited, level 24 in WoW and quited. They suck.
I dont know that I'd say they suck...but they aren't RPGs any more than Diablo is an RPG. They are all more like an online action/aventure game with tacked on crafting. I think HJ really sounds like they are redesigning the whole MMORPG concept from the ground up...starting with the RPG part from the sounds of things. The E3 demo seemed very much like a traditional MMORPG, but everything that the devs are promising is so much more. I have faith in them.
Hawkins,
I don't know if you've ever played DR (another simu game), but killing things is a huge part of the game and it doesn't suffer from the grind-move on-grind-move on syndrom you describe. Sure there are areas you won't be able to survive in until you gain higher skills, but the earlier areas are beneficial to come back to as well because you can train your lower skills or hunt with lower level friends there. Unlike the typical graphical MMO, however, it is actually beneficial to do so. There is such a wide array of skills to learn that you'll always have something you can do (and benefit from) in those low level hunting areas.
This is the huge benefit of having a true skill-based (not GW skill-based, but skill-based as in you learn the skills as you practice them) system. David has already commented that the game will not bottleneck people into playing only with other players of the same level range, so I'm sure HJ will be similar in design to DR, at least to the point where different areas are not just simply a means to gain the next level and you'll never return to them.
Maybe HJ will blend all of the experience systems into one?
jkjk. I think that the idea used in WoW (constantly gathering 20 quests at a time) worked out pretty well but I also think it killed the fun factor of the game. We would have a group running all over the 'world' for hours completing everyone's quests then continuing to go everywhere, yet again, just to turn them in for xp that didn't even seem to be worthwhile sometimes. One of the reasons I believe this got dull is because half the time, it was a similar level 1 quest for a level 40 character. Instead of killing 5 dire wolves and returning to an npc in the beginning of the game, here you've been playing for 3 weeks and now you have to kill 10 ogres and return to a different npc. Then again, everybody who played the game knows that questing worked out much better than grinding.
Anyway, if there's an in-between somewhere with these ideas that can keep the game interesting & fun, I hope SIMU can make it happen....best of luck.
There will always be a certain amount of "grind" in any RPG (online or not).... but you are absolutely right, it's hard to believe that the high level experience is simply kill 10 times more of a bigger creature than the level one quest.
Don't worry, we'll fix that for ya.
-- David
Just my personal opinion on the exp thing....
I've played GSIV for awhile now...LOVE IT...Played WoW for a few weeks...eh, serves more as a break from GS than anything....
In any case, this is my opinion on experience...I love the ability to gain experience from things aside from killing creatures. It makes it very difficult for my Empath to gain experience in a world based on the kill kill kill format if she firmly believes in helping all life and harming none. In GS, she can be a pure healer. That becomes increasingly more difficult as she gets older, but it IS possible. My husband played a warrior. He liked to just go and kill kill kill. That worked for him. My ranger likes to hunt some, but she also likes to forage. In GS, foraging gives a tiny amount of experience. I'd love to see a ranger be able to gain more experience for...well, more rangerish things (i.e., skinning, foraging, etc.), just as rogues can level off picking locks alone.
As far as the absorbing of experience goes, I think that's an essential part of a true roleplaying game. Its usually during the times we're resting to absorb our experience that we end up meeting other players and socializing, forming groups, etc. Lets face it. If you're out in the middle of a swarm of banshees, you're not likely to stop by the guy next to you and introduce yourself. You're too focused on staying alive. But if you're in the park looking to gain some defensive spells for your next hunt while you absorb your experience, there's likely a whole bunch of other people doing the same. It provides for more interaction, roleplay, socialization. Simu has done a great job imo of setting up games like GS so that interaction with others is readily available and easy to do if you so choose, but its not a required part of the game. If you want to be the kill kill kill kind, you still can.
Lihai
On another note, I'd like to see the crafting skills be sort of in between how they are in WoW and how they are in GS. In GS, forging a weapon takes practice and lots of it. In WoW you basically pay your trainer to suddenly advance in your training. It'd be nice if there was a balance. Right now becoming a master forger in GS takes forever. It'd be great to see a system where you had to take time to practice your skill to become a master forger, but that didnt take you an insane amount of money and time. Perhaps make it so you can make lesser weapons first...less durable, hits for less damage..and then with practice make more mediochre weapons and eventually some of the best weapons out there.
I do like that you need to practice on a specific weapon type in GS to become a master at that particular weapon type and not just in all weapons. However, being limited to two types of weapons imo puts on too much of a boundary, especially if its in a system where you can gain exp from it.
If HJ ends up allowing you to gain exp from something like forging, I think you should be able to choose as many weapon types as you want, gaining different amounts of exp depending on how much you already know of that weapon type. If real people of the time could be forgers by profession, why can't we?
Hawkins you the one from UXO.stratics? Your profile says Hong Kong so im guessing you are. Welcome buddy
Yes I am the Hawkins in UXO, nice to meet you in the HJ forums.
A UXO orphan and a Wish refugee.