Originally posted by erictlewis I will have to respectfully disagree with gold farming being dead. Over in eq2 i see it tons of gold farmers still, and just take a look at how hard the hit rift. I think gold farming is very much still alive. Now lets talk soe, I think there in a world of hurt, and buy howdy i hate it becasue I play eq2 and despite what I hear that were not going to be affected by the layoffs I dont believe it.
It depends on whether you draw a distinction between "legitimate" gold farming and outright hacking. The example given in the article was as close to "legitimate" as you could get. What's happening is that the "legitimate" gold farmers can no longer operate effectively, which leaves the hackers who take accounts and sell off everything in the account. The hacker gold farmers can operate just fine.
It also probably makes a difference which game you play too, some games could still be profitable for "legitimate" gold farmers. All games are more profitable for hackers though...far less effort and time investment to get the gold to sell.
I put "legitimate" in quotes because they're still selling the gold. They just aren't hacking peoples' accounts to get it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
As long as there are people with too much money and too little sense, who are so lazy as to cheat at a game to get ahead in it rather than actually be bothered to play it, there will be gold farmers.
As long as there are no life basement dwellers who have 24 hrs a day to play no families and living of the taxes people like myself pay then there will always be RMT.
Its a 2 way street and I have long said companies should simply cut out the RMT man and offer it directly. I havent used RMT but with getting 2 hrs a day to play my chosen MMO I have been so tempted on occasions when I see those no lifers who my taxes are paying benefit for running round in all the best gear it ****es me right off and the only means I ever have to catch these players in what are usually gear>skill PVP games is to waste every playing moment grinding cash or to take the RMT route or outright quit.
Sadly I always end up quitting.
Before you state "work for what you get" I already do in RL unlike many who play the genre and time is more important to me than money so I cant see any reason why MMO publishers cant just legitimise the process by offering it in their cash shops.
Looks like I hit a nerve. Sorry, but I'm still going to say "work for what you get" in the game. Throwing money at a game to get advantages is akin to cheating and kills the spirit of the game.
By your response you also look to be a PvPer. Big mistake choosing an MMO for PvP. MMOs are about character progression, which means investing a lot of time and effort into building them up to be competitive in PvP. If you want instant and balanced PvP action that doesn't require a large amount of time investment to stay on par, play one of the hundreds of games designed exactly for that.
RMT goes against 'the spirit of the game' for most MMOs, and people who want to cheat at MMOs should stick with pay to win MMOs (aka F2P).
I really don't understand the instant gratifcation syndrome that some people have. If you don't have time to play the game how it was meant to be played, then why are you even playing it? Why not just choose a game that's designed for quick and easy gameplay rather than playing one that requires time investment, and then whining about it and/or cheating to 'stay competitive'?
Looked at the video of the interview on YouTube with the 'gold farmer". He said something that really caught my interest. Basically that micro-transactions, which most of us don't approve, are the most devastating to the RMT companies and the reason these companies are drifting into "services - power leveling, hacking, keylogging etc... Cryptic has added xp boosts to its micro market services and this may be one of the reasons they made the 'money for stuff store'. Curious as to why they do not simply say so, tell us that this is one of the reasons they have a store in the first place.
Also I have played WOW for several years and during that time I have transferred gold to my guild mates (and been given gold by my guild master when my account was hacked and cleaned out my stuff) as well as transferring gold from one alt to another. I have begun to wonder how Blizz can tell the difference between my gold transfers and a gold seller. Da*n well would be upset if my long standing account were banned for something I didn't do!!!
Would be interesting if some of you posters out there had suggestions for solving, even partially, this kind of a problem. Certain that Blizz, or any Dev company would be happy to get such ideas or suggestions.
Its simple economics. Supply and demand. If a game remains stale. Well... no demand.
Not to mention theres a pretty good info on how these hackers are getting your info.
Invaluable info, especially after 34:00. Everyone that visits/contributes to a site like this or similar should at least listen to that bit.
Exactly, Can't tell you how many sites you have to sign up to get certain perks. Allahkazam, Cursed, etc etc. Even this site. Any forums or even huge guild websites with 500+ members across multiple games can be attacked. And the way the RMT looks at it they rather not deal with bad gold. But, again they can't stop the supply and demand of it. Not to mention free gold is much cheaper as the guy says cause its 100% profit.
As long as there are people with too much money and too little sense, who are so lazy as to cheat at a game to get ahead in it rather than actually be bothered to play it, there will be gold farmers.
As long as there are no life basement dwellers who have 24 hrs a day to play no families and living of the taxes people like myself pay then there will always be RMT.
Its a 2 way street and I have long said companies should simply cut out the RMT man and offer it directly. I havent used RMT but with getting 2 hrs a day to play my chosen MMO I have been so tempted on occasions when I see those no lifers who my taxes are paying benefit for running round in all the best gear it ****es me right off and the only means I ever have to catch these players in what are usually gear>skill PVP games is to waste every playing moment grinding cash or to take the RMT route or outright quit.
Sadly I always end up quitting.
Before you state "work for what you get" I already do in RL unlike many who play the genre and time is more important to me than money so I cant see any reason why MMO publishers cant just legitimise the process by offering it in their cash shops.
Looks like I hit a nerve. Sorry, but I'm still going to say "work for what you get" in the game. Throwing money at a game to get advantages is akin to cheating and kills the spirit of the game.
Kill's the spirit of the game "for you." To the person engaging in RMT it enables them to enjoy playing the game in a manner that they want to.And in the end, they really don't care about your fun, only theirs.
By your response you also look to be a PvPer. Big mistake choosing an MMO for PvP. MMOs are about character progression, which means investing a lot of time and effort into building them up to be competitive in PvP. If you want instant and balanced PvP action that doesn't require a large amount of time investment to stay on par, play one of the hundreds of games designed exactly for that.
EVE's a great example of a MMO that is all about tactical combat PVP, and fortunately, they even have a legal mechanism for players who don't want to spend their time grinding for ISK or even leveling their characters, they are free to jump into the action if willing to pay. But as you noted, if you're investing in RMT to gain a leg up on PVP in most P2P games, you're doing it wrong.
RMT goes against 'the spirit of the game' for most MMOs, and people who want to cheat at MMOs should stick with pay to win MMOs (aka F2P).
What they should do and what they will do are two different things. I think people who play more than I do 'should' go out and get a life but hey, they're going to play 6-10 hours a day because they want to.
I really don't understand the instant gratifcation syndrome that some people have. If you don't have time to play the game how it was meant to be played, then why are you even playing it? Why not just choose a game that's designed for quick and easy gameplay rather than playing one that requires time investment, and then whining about it and/or cheating to 'stay competitive'?
You fail to understand, people wish to play the parts of MMO's that they enjoy. Grinding gold for a month to buy a 110% run speed mount might not be something they wish to do, and if an avenue presents itself to circumvent the issue, they're going to take it. Who's to say what their tolerance level is or what is easy. And by the way, there's only one person really whining here.
BTW, I don't want you to think I don't see RMT as cheating, it most certainly is outside the spirit of the game, and no reason not to label it for exactly what it is.
Fortunately these are just games, and in the end most RMT harms no one. (yes, I know, some games like FFXI had real issues with it), but overall, most MMO's effectively deal with it as EVE or WOW or Aion did, and the games continue onward.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
As long as there are people with too much money and too little sense, who are so lazy as to cheat at a game to get ahead in it rather than actually be bothered to play it, there will be gold farmers.
As long as there are no life basement dwellers who have 24 hrs a day to play no families and living of the taxes people like myself pay then there will always be RMT.
Its a 2 way street and I have long said companies should simply cut out the RMT man and offer it directly. I havent used RMT but with getting 2 hrs a day to play my chosen MMO I have been so tempted on occasions when I see those no lifers who my taxes are paying benefit for running round in all the best gear it ****es me right off and the only means I ever have to catch these players in what are usually gear>skill PVP games is to waste every playing moment grinding cash or to take the RMT route or outright quit.
Sadly I always end up quitting.
Before you state "work for what you get" I already do in RL unlike many who play the genre and time is more important to me than money so I cant see any reason why MMO publishers cant just legitimise the process by offering it in their cash shops.
Looks like I hit a nerve. Sorry, but I'm still going to say "work for what you get" in the game. Throwing money at a game to get advantages is akin to cheating and kills the spirit of the game.
Kill's the spirit of the game "for you." To the person engaging in RMT it enables them to enjoy playing the game in a manner that they want to.And in the end, they really don't care about your fun, only theirs.
By your response you also look to be a PvPer. Big mistake choosing an MMO for PvP. MMOs are about character progression, which means investing a lot of time and effort into building them up to be competitive in PvP. If you want instant and balanced PvP action that doesn't require a large amount of time investment to stay on par, play one of the hundreds of games designed exactly for that.
EVE's a great example of a MMO that is all about tactical combat PVP, and fortunately, they even have a legal mechanism for players who don't want to spend their time grinding for ISK or even leveling their characters, they are free to jump into the action if willing to pay. But as you noted, if you're investing in RMT to gain a leg up on PVP in most P2P games, you're doing it wrong.
RMT goes against 'the spirit of the game' for most MMOs, and people who want to cheat at MMOs should stick with pay to win MMOs (aka F2P).
What they should do and what they will do are two different things. I think people who play more than I do 'should' go out and get a life but hey, they're going to play 6-10 hours a day because they want to.
I really don't understand the instant gratifcation syndrome that some people have. If you don't have time to play the game how it was meant to be played, then why are you even playing it? Why not just choose a game that's designed for quick and easy gameplay rather than playing one that requires time investment, and then whining about it and/or cheating to 'stay competitive'?
You fail to understand, people wish to play the parts of MMO's that they enjoy. Grinding gold for a month to buy a 110% run speed mount might not be something they wish to do, and if an avenue presents itself to circumvent the issue, they're going to take it. Who's to say what their tolerance level is or what is easy. And by the way, there's only one person really whining here.
BTW, I don't want you to think I don't see RMT as cheating, it most certainly is outside the spirit of the game, and no reason not to label it for exactly what it is.
Fortunately these are just games, and in the end most RMT harms no one. (yes, I know, some games like FFXI had real issues with it), but overall, most MMO's effectively deal with it as EVE or WOW or Aion did, and the games continue onward.
If the game is designed for RMT by the developer from the get-go, it's not cheating in the game. Personally it's not a game I would ever play, because it goes against my views that paying real cash for any advantage in a game wholey invalidates the entire premise that said game is even a game, but rather is just a cleverly designed scam. Similarly I also feel that any RMT models that are added to a game after the fact is akin to a bait and switch.
RMT from third parties however, is outright cheating unless expressly condoned by the developer.
That's why I suggested he pick a game that is designed from the ground up for people with little time to buy their way through the game. The options exist, they just don't want to take them because it's not their 'ideal', so they instead cheat in a game where doing so expressly goes against the intended spirit of the game.
If he wants to throw away his 'hard earned' money to buy his way through a game, so be it. I just prefer he do it in a game that's designed for it, and he and those like him stay out of games designed around actually playing the game to advance.
As per RMT harming no one... tell that to the thousands of people who get their accounts hacked each day over various MMOs. If there was no demand for purchasing virtual items, the 'farmers' would have no reason to relentlessly breach into people's MMO accounts and dry loot them.
In an odd way the number of gold sellers is directly in line with how well a game is doing.
Large player base= more potential customers.
For those who think the gold farmers ( the players...lil guys) should just move to the US and make big $$. It costs several thousand dollars to make the trip. Then you need a place to stay, food and have a language barrier to deal with. Not easy in a country with a large unemployed percentage of the workforce out of work to begin with.
Buying Gold for Monthly subscription games is Cheating - Cheating in any form is a sign of Bad Character - and NO I do not mean the In-game Char! I mean the character of the person that buys the gold.
Basically it IS Cheating!
I am an Abstract sort of Creature Who Dislikes any sort of Restraint If you try to pigeonhole me I Will Break Free!
Buying Gold for Monthly subscription games is Cheating - Cheating in any form is a sign of Bad Character - and NO I do not mean the In-game Char! I mean the character of the person that buys the gold.
Basically it IS Cheating!
Saying something in big red text does not make it true.
"Buying Gold for Monthly subscription games is Cheating".
So what happens in games like LotRO where a monthly subcription earns you Turbine Points? And those Turbine points can be used to buy everything including some stuff you cannot buy with in game gold? In some cases stuff that is more valuable than stuff you can buy with in game gold? (And LotRO is not alone here by any means)
Are you saying that in a game like LotRO where you can earn 'currency' for subscribing: "Subscribing is cheating"?
I would agree that it does say something about the person buying the gold... but what it says exactly depends on the game a lot. In some cases it says more about the game than the player, such as "this game is a tedious grind".
I am proud to say I am responsible for many a botter getting the boot from GM's in various games.
I feel strongly that botters ruins my gaming experience, which I will try to explain why.
First, the buyers ruin the game for themselves by not playing the game - It would be like taking your life and jumping straight to retirement.. you got there fast but forgot to experience life. It is a fact that easy come easy goes. If you ever think about buying money in a game, stop playing because then it is not the game you like.
Next, The botters themselves take up resources from actual players, and though it may not cause anyone to quit it plays a role in the overall opinion of the game. To that, the economy in a game suffers because it doesnt follow the predictions on developers.
Screwed up economies are also a factor that counts when a player values a game. You value your money and gear with the efford you put in, and if something comes and devaluate your work significantly you will not feel the same about aquiring other gear/money (like when an expansion replaces all your hard earned gear the first day you play it).
Brings us to .. Fairness or feeling of justice and equal possibilities.
Most will to some degree, compare themselves to others and that goes for games aswell. It only makes sense to compare youself to others if the rules are the same for everyone, or it will have no meaning. A botter (or a buyer) are breaking these rules and that devaluate your achievements (wealth, gear and so on) compared to others - You are no longer playing on equal grounds. Yet another factor that will play a role in your opinion of a game.
Not to mention the more emotional problems, such as ruining game immersion, taking focus away from the roleplaying experience and the feeling of justice.
So what I see is that botting/goldfarming and other cheating has a strong impact of how players view a game, and eventually have a saying in whether they will buy and play the game (or expansion/sequel). So stop buying your way through a game, it is the journey that matters and getting satisfaction from beating the challanges your meet on the way.
I am proud to say I am responsible for many a botter getting the boot from GM's in various games.
I feel strongly that botters ruins my gaming experience, which I will try to explain why.
First, the buyers ruin the game for themselves by not playing the game - It would be like taking your life and jumping straight to retirement.. you got there fast but forgot to experience life. It is a fact that easy come easy goes. If you ever think about buying money in a game, stop playing because then it is not the game you like.
Next, The botters themselves take up resources from actual players, and though it may not cause anyone to quit it plays a role in the overall opinion of the game. To that, the economy in a game suffers because it doesnt follow the predictions on developers.
Screwed up economies are also a factor that counts when a player values a game. You value your money and gear with the efford you put in, and if something comes and devaluate your work significantly you will not feel the same about aquiring other gear/money (like when an expansion replaces all your hard earned gear the first day you play it).
Brings us to .. Fairness or feeling of justice and equal possibilities.
Most will to some degree, compare themselves to others and that goes for games aswell. It only makes sense to compare youself to others if the rules are the same for everyone, or it will have no meaning. A botter (or a buyer) are breaking these rules and that devaluate your achievements (wealth, gear and so on) compared to others - You are no longer playing on equal grounds. Yet another factor that will play a role in your opinion of a game.
Not to mention the more emotional problems, such as ruining game immersion, taking focus away from the roleplaying experience and the feeling of justice.
So what I see is that botting/goldfarming and other cheating has a strong impact of how players view a game, and eventually have a saying in whether they will buy and play the game (or expansion/sequel). So stop buying your way through a game, it is the journey that matters and getting satisfaction from beating the challanges your meet on the way.
While granted I agree with all of your above statements. Buying and botting is bad for the economy for the server. However, someone is going to broker the money that people acculumate and someone will sell it. Weither you like it or not. Cheating or not its in the game. Companies will say they will ban botters, people who sell gold, etc etc. However, they are revenue too. There not gonna turn their money away. They have to pay for a subscription and a monthly fee as well. Companies of games will announce they will be banning these people. Yeah they might hit a few people and hurt the sellers themselves the only thing that those bans will do is increase the amount of real cash it takes to buy in game cash cause they hit a few people. However, they will just buy new accounts new expansions.... if you look at W.o.W. everytime they go thru a ban wave those RMT people who do happen to get hit will have to buy the main game and 3 xpacs. Which gives the company more money. The RMT openly admits that the people who do get their accounts hacked and cleaned out is bad business, however its still business. Its like blood diamonds. Its a lose, lose situation. They don't like it but they got orders to fill for people who want the in game cash.
Gold Farming is the quintessential illicit activity in MMORPG, the behaviors exhibited by Gold Farmers in MMORPGs are likely to be similar to behaviors exhibited in criminal networks like Drug Traficking Networks, networks of street gang members etc. In order to study the similarities between online and offline clandestine networks we used data from EQ2 Gold Farming networks (online criminal network) and network data on a drug trafficking ring obtained from a Canadian law enforcement taskforce called Project Caviar (Offline criminal network). We discovered that Gold Farmers camouflage their activity or counterparties by emulating typical players’ trading practices – rely upon many repeated transactions with only trusted (and likely co-offending) characters. This behavior is contrasted by gold farmers’ affiliates who have substantially higher connectivity and transaction frequency than lay players.
First, the buyers ruin the game for themselves by not playing the game - It would be like taking your life and jumping straight to retirement.. you got there fast but forgot to experience life. It is a fact that easy come easy goes. If you ever think about buying money in a game, stop playing because then it is not the game you like.
I agree with this.
However, there seem to be a growing number of people who don't think this way... I blame the teachers (including the parents) myself.
But what are you going to do?
Many games companies are now saying "Oh well, if that's how you want to play, fine. (Now how do we make extra cash off you?)
Next, The botters themselves take up resources from actual players, and though it may not cause anyone to quit it plays a role in the overall opinion of the game. To that, the economy in a game suffers because it doesnt follow the predictions on developers.
Doesn't this lead to a circular argument?
If the developers hadn't made the game so damn predictable the botters would have trouble?
Brings us to .. Fairness or feeling of justice and equal possibilities.
Most will to some degree, compare themselves to others and that goes for games aswell. It only makes sense to compare youself to others if the rules are the same for everyone, or it will have no meaning. A botter (or a buyer) are breaking these rules and that devaluate your achievements (wealth, gear and so on) compared to others - You are no longer playing on equal grounds. Yet another factor that will play a role in your opinion of a game.
...
Not to mention the more emotional problems, such as ruining game immersion, taking focus away from the roleplaying experience and the feeling of justice.
But again, developers are far more guilty of driving these trends than anyone else (including farmers).
Games (MMOs I mean - in this context) are becoming more and more a 'solo' experience. And with that mind set - players are being discouraged from comparing themselves to others - looking for relative strengths and weaknesses and uniqueness.
Except in PvP of course - where the trend seems to be toward making everyone exactly the same so that we have 'balance'?
I don't agree with these trends - I think it destroys what makes MMOs different from a Single Player game with a Battlefield Arena - but I don't make the games.
There is no 'unique' anymore. Let's be honest, even 'rare drops' aren't. Players will simply grind the same mob, or quest, or raid, or boss until they get one. And soon everyone will have one. There is nothing stopping any of us looking and being the same as anyone else.
The solution is to make 'unique drops'. Where there really only is one. But then the issue is how to make sure there are enough for everyone - and that's a lot of work for developers.
Again though - this is nothing that Gold Farmers have anything to do with.
I guess the moral of the story is for devs IP block the countries of the Phillipines, China, S.Korea, and few other places to start, for play on NA/EU servers. And go from there....
The small number of "legitimate" subs one might lose from these countries is likely more than offset by the scam accts, chargebacks from fraudulent CC charges, gold farmers/spammers, and normal players just getting pissed off and quiting.
Then they can set up some nice Asian servers for the spammers, and farmers, and RMT enthusists to go wild.
Just stay the hell away from me.
Gold farming companies getting slammed? Good. I hope it continues.
Before i even started reading this topic i already knew what your standpoint was lol, and its sad realy sad:(
I dont do it myself but i dont condem it eather gold farming what weak arguement is this?
what a sad way of saying when everybody do it i dont mind but i myself dont do buy or sell, becouse its agains my principle yeh right double standard bah:(. Thats why gold farming is on this scale guys like you and those who sell and buy are the couse it exist in first place.
Many games are ruined by these cheaters so you should always condem this if you want fairplay.
I think your saying this becouse you wanne be friend with everybody and some kind of sad neurtal stance for gold farming affraid people are agains you and mmorpg.com?...:(
All who dont say no to this are part of problem but you new generation gamers dont even know whats cheating anymore.
Goldsellers/buyers should never being aloud period.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
As long as there are no life basement dwellers who have 24 hrs a day to play no families and living of the taxes people like myself pay then there will always be RMT.
Note: "You" is meant in general here.
And those people will continue to support the illegal activities that these companies carry out to keep the money flowing. It's pretty damn sick that anyone would support that simply so they can have "more conveniences" in a game.
The "no life basement dwellers" argument is old, stale and completely baseless. I have held down a full-time job, *plus* gone to evening classes for a period of time that I've played MMOs. I never "stayed in the basement".
I have tended to play MMOs that are the *first* ones people claim "you need to RMT to get anywhere". I have never spent a dime on in-game currency, on leveling services.. nothing. Everything I've done is 100% legit.
I know plenty of others who have full-time jobs, have families and other responsibilities that require their attention... and they still do just fine while playing legitimately.
So, the argument that you "have to RMT if you're not a "no life basement dweller who can play 24-hours a day" is a transparent, hollow crock of shit. It's a cop-out used by lazy or entitled players who feel they deserve special treatment because they don't want to play the game as it's intended, and instead cheat or buy their way through.
You don't have to be a "no-life basement dweller" to play a MMO legitimately. You just have to be intelligent enough to choose a game that's well-suited to your preferences in the first place. You have to be intelligent enough to move on when one you're trying doesn't suit your preferences. You have to be intellectually honest enough to realize that "not liking the way the game is setup" is not free license to partake in something that is *against the game's ToS*, no matter how you might try to defend it.
Finally, you have to not be lazy, impatient or feel "entitled" to have everything "when you want it, because you want it".
It really is that simple.
Its a 2 way street and I have long said companies should simply cut out the RMT man and offer it directly. I havent used RMT but with getting 2 hrs a day to play my chosen MMO I have been so tempted on occasions when I see those no lifers who my taxes are paying benefit for running round in all the best gear it ****es me right off and the only means I ever have to catch these players in what are usually gear>skill PVP games is to waste every playing moment grinding cash or to take the RMT route or outright quit.
How do you know these people are "no-lifers"? How do you know they're not kids with no other obligations? How do you know they're not stay-at-home parents with their kids off at school for the day and lots of time to kill? How do you know they're not handicapped or otherwise incapable of going out and working? How do you know the circumstances of anyone else you see playing that you don't know, unless they've told you personally? You don't. Everything you are saying is basically conjecture to rationalize jealousy on your part, and nothing more. "They have what I want, and I don't. So they must be no-lifers".
Sadly I always end up quitting.
If the game doesn't suit your preferred playstyle, then that's the smart thing to do. However, if you take that jealous "I want what they have, but I don't, so they must be no lifers and I can't compete with them" attitude into every MMO you play... well... I don't think it's necessarily the games that are making you quit. Just sayin'.
Before you state "work for what you get" I already do in RL unlike many who play the genre and time is more important to me than money so I cant see any reason why MMO publishers cant just legitimise the process by offering it in their cash shops.
What does what you do in real life have anything to do with what you do in a game? Real Life =/= Video Game.
Why should a developer cater to what you want when there are clearly many others who enjoy it as is (and no, they're not all no-life basement dwellers if they do)? Millions of people go to work every day. Many work 2 or even 3 jobs across the period of a week. Having a job simply makes you a responsible adult. It does not make you a special snowflake, entitled to special treatment.
The idea of playing a game is to play the game as it's intended. If the game doesn't suit what you're looking for - then find one that does. If you can't find a MMO that caters to you (which, again, I doubt you could with your mentality), then perhaps MMOs simply aren't a genre your circumstances are well suited to, given what you expect out of them. There's nothing wrong with that. There's no crime in that.
Pick the type of entertainment that suits you from the start, and you won't have these "problems".
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Comments
It depends on whether you draw a distinction between "legitimate" gold farming and outright hacking. The example given in the article was as close to "legitimate" as you could get. What's happening is that the "legitimate" gold farmers can no longer operate effectively, which leaves the hackers who take accounts and sell off everything in the account. The hacker gold farmers can operate just fine.
It also probably makes a difference which game you play too, some games could still be profitable for "legitimate" gold farmers. All games are more profitable for hackers though...far less effort and time investment to get the gold to sell.
I put "legitimate" in quotes because they're still selling the gold. They just aren't hacking peoples' accounts to get it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Looks like I hit a nerve. Sorry, but I'm still going to say "work for what you get" in the game. Throwing money at a game to get advantages is akin to cheating and kills the spirit of the game.
By your response you also look to be a PvPer. Big mistake choosing an MMO for PvP. MMOs are about character progression, which means investing a lot of time and effort into building them up to be competitive in PvP. If you want instant and balanced PvP action that doesn't require a large amount of time investment to stay on par, play one of the hundreds of games designed exactly for that.
RMT goes against 'the spirit of the game' for most MMOs, and people who want to cheat at MMOs should stick with pay to win MMOs (aka F2P).
I really don't understand the instant gratifcation syndrome that some people have. If you don't have time to play the game how it was meant to be played, then why are you even playing it? Why not just choose a game that's designed for quick and easy gameplay rather than playing one that requires time investment, and then whining about it and/or cheating to 'stay competitive'?
Invaluable info, especially after 34:00. Everyone that visits/contributes to a site like this or similar should at least listen to that bit.
Looked at the video of the interview on YouTube with the 'gold farmer". He said something that really caught my interest. Basically that micro-transactions, which most of us don't approve, are the most devastating to the RMT companies and the reason these companies are drifting into "services - power leveling, hacking, keylogging etc... Cryptic has added xp boosts to its micro market services and this may be one of the reasons they made the 'money for stuff store'. Curious as to why they do not simply say so, tell us that this is one of the reasons they have a store in the first place.
Also I have played WOW for several years and during that time I have transferred gold to my guild mates (and been given gold by my guild master when my account was hacked and cleaned out my stuff) as well as transferring gold from one alt to another. I have begun to wonder how Blizz can tell the difference between my gold transfers and a gold seller. Da*n well would be upset if my long standing account were banned for something I didn't do!!!
Would be interesting if some of you posters out there had suggestions for solving, even partially, this kind of a problem. Certain that Blizz, or any Dev company would be happy to get such ideas or suggestions.
Exactly, Can't tell you how many sites you have to sign up to get certain perks. Allahkazam, Cursed, etc etc. Even this site. Any forums or even huge guild websites with 500+ members across multiple games can be attacked. And the way the RMT looks at it they rather not deal with bad gold. But, again they can't stop the supply and demand of it. Not to mention free gold is much cheaper as the guy says cause its 100% profit.
BTW, I don't want you to think I don't see RMT as cheating, it most certainly is outside the spirit of the game, and no reason not to label it for exactly what it is.
Fortunately these are just games, and in the end most RMT harms no one. (yes, I know, some games like FFXI had real issues with it), but overall, most MMO's effectively deal with it as EVE or WOW or Aion did, and the games continue onward.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If the game is designed for RMT by the developer from the get-go, it's not cheating in the game. Personally it's not a game I would ever play, because it goes against my views that paying real cash for any advantage in a game wholey invalidates the entire premise that said game is even a game, but rather is just a cleverly designed scam. Similarly I also feel that any RMT models that are added to a game after the fact is akin to a bait and switch.
RMT from third parties however, is outright cheating unless expressly condoned by the developer.
That's why I suggested he pick a game that is designed from the ground up for people with little time to buy their way through the game. The options exist, they just don't want to take them because it's not their 'ideal', so they instead cheat in a game where doing so expressly goes against the intended spirit of the game.
If he wants to throw away his 'hard earned' money to buy his way through a game, so be it. I just prefer he do it in a game that's designed for it, and he and those like him stay out of games designed around actually playing the game to advance.
As per RMT harming no one... tell that to the thousands of people who get their accounts hacked each day over various MMOs. If there was no demand for purchasing virtual items, the 'farmers' would have no reason to relentlessly breach into people's MMO accounts and dry loot them.
In an odd way the number of gold sellers is directly in line with how well a game is doing.
Large player base= more potential customers.
For those who think the gold farmers ( the players...lil guys) should just move to the US and make big $$. It costs several thousand dollars to make the trip. Then you need a place to stay, food and have a language barrier to deal with. Not easy in a country with a large unemployed percentage of the workforce out of work to begin with.
Buying Gold for Monthly subscription games is Cheating - Cheating in any form is a sign of Bad Character - and NO I do not mean the In-game Char! I mean the character of the person that buys the gold.
Basically it IS Cheating!
I am an Abstract sort of Creature
Who Dislikes any sort of Restraint
If you try to pigeonhole me
I Will Break Free!
Saying something in big red text does not make it true.
"Buying Gold for Monthly subscription games is Cheating".
So what happens in games like LotRO where a monthly subcription earns you Turbine Points? And those Turbine points can be used to buy everything including some stuff you cannot buy with in game gold? In some cases stuff that is more valuable than stuff you can buy with in game gold? (And LotRO is not alone here by any means)
Are you saying that in a game like LotRO where you can earn 'currency' for subscribing: "Subscribing is cheating"?
I would agree that it does say something about the person buying the gold... but what it says exactly depends on the game a lot. In some cases it says more about the game than the player, such as "this game is a tedious grind".
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
I am proud to say I am responsible for many a botter getting the boot from GM's in various games.
I feel strongly that botters ruins my gaming experience, which I will try to explain why.
First, the buyers ruin the game for themselves by not playing the game - It would be like taking your life and jumping straight to retirement.. you got there fast but forgot to experience life. It is a fact that easy come easy goes. If you ever think about buying money in a game, stop playing because then it is not the game you like.
Next, The botters themselves take up resources from actual players, and though it may not cause anyone to quit it plays a role in the overall opinion of the game. To that, the economy in a game suffers because it doesnt follow the predictions on developers.
Screwed up economies are also a factor that counts when a player values a game. You value your money and gear with the efford you put in, and if something comes and devaluate your work significantly you will not feel the same about aquiring other gear/money (like when an expansion replaces all your hard earned gear the first day you play it).
Brings us to .. Fairness or feeling of justice and equal possibilities.
Most will to some degree, compare themselves to others and that goes for games aswell. It only makes sense to compare youself to others if the rules are the same for everyone, or it will have no meaning. A botter (or a buyer) are breaking these rules and that devaluate your achievements (wealth, gear and so on) compared to others - You are no longer playing on equal grounds. Yet another factor that will play a role in your opinion of a game.
Not to mention the more emotional problems, such as ruining game immersion, taking focus away from the roleplaying experience and the feeling of justice.
So what I see is that botting/goldfarming and other cheating has a strong impact of how players view a game, and eventually have a saying in whether they will buy and play the game (or expansion/sequel). So stop buying your way through a game, it is the journey that matters and getting satisfaction from beating the challanges your meet on the way.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
While granted I agree with all of your above statements. Buying and botting is bad for the economy for the server. However, someone is going to broker the money that people acculumate and someone will sell it. Weither you like it or not. Cheating or not its in the game. Companies will say they will ban botters, people who sell gold, etc etc. However, they are revenue too. There not gonna turn their money away. They have to pay for a subscription and a monthly fee as well. Companies of games will announce they will be banning these people. Yeah they might hit a few people and hurt the sellers themselves the only thing that those bans will do is increase the amount of real cash it takes to buy in game cash cause they hit a few people. However, they will just buy new accounts new expansions.... if you look at W.o.W. everytime they go thru a ban wave those RMT people who do happen to get hit will have to buy the main game and 3 xpacs. Which gives the company more money. The RMT openly admits that the people who do get their accounts hacked and cleaned out is bad business, however its still business. Its like blood diamonds. Its a lose, lose situation. They don't like it but they got orders to fill for people who want the in game cash.
Supply and demand.
Gold Farming is the quintessential illicit activity in MMORPG, the behaviors exhibited by Gold Farmers in MMORPGs are likely to be similar to behaviors exhibited in criminal networks like Drug Traficking Networks, networks of street gang members etc. In order to study the similarities between online and offline clandestine networks we used data from EQ2 Gold Farming networks (online criminal network) and network data on a drug trafficking ring obtained from a Canadian law enforcement taskforce called Project Caviar (Offline criminal network). We discovered that Gold Farmers camouflage their activity or counterparties by emulating typical players’ trading practices – rely upon many repeated transactions with only trusted (and likely co-offending) characters. This behavior is contrasted by gold farmers’ affiliates who have substantially higher connectivity and transaction frequency than lay players.
First, the buyers ruin the game for themselves by not playing the game - It would be like taking your life and jumping straight to retirement.. you got there fast but forgot to experience life. It is a fact that easy come easy goes. If you ever think about buying money in a game, stop playing because then it is not the game you like.
I agree with this.
However, there seem to be a growing number of people who don't think this way... I blame the teachers (including the parents) myself.
But what are you going to do?
Many games companies are now saying "Oh well, if that's how you want to play, fine. (Now how do we make extra cash off you?)
Next, The botters themselves take up resources from actual players, and though it may not cause anyone to quit it plays a role in the overall opinion of the game. To that, the economy in a game suffers because it doesnt follow the predictions on developers.
Doesn't this lead to a circular argument?
If the developers hadn't made the game so damn predictable the botters would have trouble?
Brings us to .. Fairness or feeling of justice and equal possibilities.
Most will to some degree, compare themselves to others and that goes for games aswell. It only makes sense to compare youself to others if the rules are the same for everyone, or it will have no meaning. A botter (or a buyer) are breaking these rules and that devaluate your achievements (wealth, gear and so on) compared to others - You are no longer playing on equal grounds. Yet another factor that will play a role in your opinion of a game.
...
Not to mention the more emotional problems, such as ruining game immersion, taking focus away from the roleplaying experience and the feeling of justice.
But again, developers are far more guilty of driving these trends than anyone else (including farmers).
Games (MMOs I mean - in this context) are becoming more and more a 'solo' experience. And with that mind set - players are being discouraged from comparing themselves to others - looking for relative strengths and weaknesses and uniqueness.
Except in PvP of course - where the trend seems to be toward making everyone exactly the same so that we have 'balance'?
I don't agree with these trends - I think it destroys what makes MMOs different from a Single Player game with a Battlefield Arena - but I don't make the games.
There is no 'unique' anymore. Let's be honest, even 'rare drops' aren't. Players will simply grind the same mob, or quest, or raid, or boss until they get one. And soon everyone will have one. There is nothing stopping any of us looking and being the same as anyone else.
The solution is to make 'unique drops'. Where there really only is one. But then the issue is how to make sure there are enough for everyone - and that's a lot of work for developers.
Again though - this is nothing that Gold Farmers have anything to do with.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
I guess the moral of the story is for devs IP block the countries of the Phillipines, China, S.Korea, and few other places to start, for play on NA/EU servers. And go from there....
The small number of "legitimate" subs one might lose from these countries is likely more than offset by the scam accts, chargebacks from fraudulent CC charges, gold farmers/spammers, and normal players just getting pissed off and quiting.
Then they can set up some nice Asian servers for the spammers, and farmers, and RMT enthusists to go wild.
Just stay the hell away from me.
Gold farming companies getting slammed? Good. I hope it continues.
Get a real job.
Leeches.
Before i even started reading this topic i already knew what your standpoint was lol, and its sad realy sad:(
I dont do it myself but i dont condem it eather gold farming what weak arguement is this?
what a sad way of saying when everybody do it i dont mind but i myself dont do buy or sell, becouse its agains my principle yeh right double standard bah:(. Thats why gold farming is on this scale guys like you and those who sell and buy are the couse it exist in first place.
Many games are ruined by these cheaters so you should always condem this if you want fairplay.
I think your saying this becouse you wanne be friend with everybody and some kind of sad neurtal stance for gold farming affraid people are agains you and mmorpg.com?...:(
All who dont say no to this are part of problem but you new generation gamers dont even know whats cheating anymore.
Goldsellers/buyers should never being aloud period.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops