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Explanation of why I enjoy sandbox compared to Themepark.
Enerzeal
Member Posts: 326
After reading a few threads today, on the grind, on instances, on lack of content, and on balancing issues - I came to realize that all these problems are part of the themepark MMO system. What I want to do is try to explain to those who prefer themeparks to sandboxes why I and I suspect others enjoy sandbox gameplay.
1.) Community. A good sandbox has incredible community. It also has powerful enemies, kids, griefers and elitists (all games have these) the thing about a good sandbox however is that its built upon the backs of community, trade, crafting, pve, the griefers and the hardcore pvpers need you.
2.) Content is created by the player. As opposed to running a dungeon 3 times in an evening trying to score that one chest piece you have been after for 4 nights in a row, completing some daily quests and a few pvp battlegrounds/scenarios/warfronts, you might spend your night getting the best deal you can for a set of chests you have been meaning to get for your house, leveling up some crafting and perhaps heading into a dungeon to grab some more gold, in a group of course for protection.
3.) Affecting the enviroment, housing, groups of housing formed into villages, guild towers, guild cities, they generate so much content its unreal, wars, RP, trade. Nothing makes you feel connected to a world more than having your own property.
4.) Skill based system. When I say skill based I mean a system by which you take any combination of 7-10 skills to level 100. Forming unique combinations and play styles for nearly everyone. Is there FOTM builds? Yes there is, but every FOTM has a counter, skill systems are great for balancing themselves.
5.) PvP. Due to having a greater focus on guilds and property, pvp is more than just collecting points to trade for pvp gear to do more pvp. Its about protecting whats yours, proving your better, supporting a life style in game (be it looting players and selling their stuff, or protecting people from pkers).
6.) Nothing is stopping you from grouping with higher levels, its alot more friendly in sandboxes, no buddy system or anything like that, just grouping between skill level gaps.
7.) Fluff! A good sandbox needs fluff, books you can write in, furniture for your house, trophies you can display. Nothing can beat having a well stocked and well planned house. Musical instruments, pets, its all good stuff that adds more to the world your in, and you are in a world, not on a ride experiencing but never affecting.
General misconceptions.
Alot of people asume certain things about sandbox games. Its a grindfest, its rife with griefers, I don't want to lose all my stuff etc.
Yes there can be griefers, I enjoy Eve's system however which rewards player policing and offers greater rewards and less NPC protection the further into dangerous territory you go. The believe that sandboxes are grindfests (propagated by darkfall) is untrue, darkfall chose to have uncapped skill gains, most prefer to cap it, creating unique builds and balance. Lastly losing all your stuff in a themepark would be baaad, in a sandbox however, average stuff is much easier to get, so you always have replacements, the best gear you have is at risk of course, only wear what you can aford to lose - the mantra of the sanbox player.
This might come off as a rant, but I've been trying to find a good MMO to play over the past few days and what I really want is a fantastic new Fantasy MMO sandbox, and frustration has got to me :P
Comments
ArcheAGe plz save us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Good post. I think you did a great job explaining the trademark points of a sandbox game. The post is pretty balanced and since I prefer sandbox to themepark, I am happy to say that I agree with your comments. I find it disappointing that there are not more sandbox choices out there.
1 is already the reason why sandbox FAILS
nobody want to play the victim , if sandbox has a beter community of carebears it last longer.
Sorry put a bunch of leet and elitist and griefers into the same zone .
And in the end only the leet left the rest quit .
Cause they were the victim of superior skills .
Sorry you explanation of why sandbox is failing is so obvious ... it pains me .
Cue archeage
its gonna be at least a year though, possibly two.
Yes, this. Unfortunately (for sandbox fans; I can't stand them myself, but that's not a value judgment) the days of PKs and anti-PKs co-existing to create a community of conflict are long gone, because people now have other places to go. You can no longer make players stay in the same area and thus be forced to find a way to co-exist, so everyone who doesn't care for that gameplay will leave (or not start playing in the first place) and you will be left with a very select type of audience....
I understand why people like sandbox games, even though I don't. Just as I understand why people like horror movies, or thrillers, or romantic comedies (okay, I don't understand why people like romantic comedies, but 2 out of 3 ain't bad). I do hope that ArchAge serves to satisfy those of you whom Mortal Online or Darkfall or EVE didn't (there don't seem to be a lack of these games, just polished ones).
everyone is hoping for ArcheAge to come as a super hero and change things in this sad thempark and sandbox-esque thempark mmo world we play in..... i just hope AA doesnt turn out to be another xsyon.......
I could get behind a sandbox game that focuses on PvE.
Sandbox games come with pvp junkies though, and most of them are just rude and feel they have to prove something by beating people at a game.
Maybe there could just be non-pvp type of things. I get the appeal of open pvp along with sandbox games, but pvp junkies just ruin it for everyone else.
Also, if I log out for a few days and log back in to see all my time and effort erased by someone else, what would even be the point. Sandbox games just ned to be done with some things in place that don't make them stupidly annoying to bother with. Like in darkfall, losing all your gear after dying is needless. Droping some stuff would be okay, but everything? Come on.
Thanks for the mostly constructive replies folks, will try and answer some of the statements raised.
The best sandbox at the moment is Eve Online, it simply has a very unique method for advancing and a spreadsheet approach to.. well everything. It does however support the BEST online community out there. You ask a question in help or in rookie help, and about 5 people clamor to answer it for you, ive seen people group up with strangers to help them through some missions 30 jumps away. I have also seen scammers and pks, can flippers and complete bastards, but only if you choose that side of the game.
Eve Online also answers the desire for pvers to enjoy their world aswell.
1.0 -0.5 is safe space, if someone attacks you they are reduced to a pile of mush in moments. I spent months and months in that game sitting in highsec trading, manufacturing and mining. Safe as can be, yes someone in a battleship could of warped in and attempt to gank me but its a complete waste of a ship and no one does it really.
The simple way to marry together pve and pvp in a sandbox is to have the rarest stuff and the building land in pvp areas, and have the limited building land and lesser resources in the safe zones.
It is a shame though that pvpers and pvers can't co-exist anymore. PvErs make a pvp game, they are the life blood.
Jinx explained it perfectly , that is one of the reason , sandbox interest is in decline .
Partly cause of community change , PvPer gank fest is not wanted by PvEr , eve is a exception but remember eve didn´t had that system from get go .
Games like Earthrise would have been a lot more interest , especially during it launch window and period.
If it wasn´t claimed to be exclusief PvP , since usually PvEer are the more patient kind .
Look at City of Heroes , it almost exclusief was pve , it still excist today even with glaring fault during first 2 years .
A total stunt worst then NGE , but done with logic and conclusion was that people saw it as improvement .
No PvP game would survive a system change , cause of the fickle nature of PvP to hold on what they know as advangtage.
EvE cannot move away from the sandbox structure , cause the audience will never allow it .
But atleast they keep trying shuffle by shuffle .
New sandbox releases , have the glaring fault it is always directed to the hardcore not willing to support the product group.
Those people do not have the patience or the money to play a 2 year waiting game .
They do not have the interest of playing for other people , only for there own thrills .
That is really the biggest point against sandbox , and especially in this modern time .
The community has changed , newer generation consumers ,developers of sandbox want desperatly , are the short term players.
They are not interested in a 4 year commitment , they are the on and off type .
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Then there's no need for anything but the box price. Theres no need to make it an MMO.
Doing so would be to serve an agenda.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Problem is simple your idea of MMO and current money paying audience of MMO is seperate.
You have to come to a working functional concept , that earns you money .
If you want to make a MMO that does not earn money but your vision , by all means deliver it .
And ask for a paypall donation from fans.
But if you enter the big bad real life world , especially nowadays , you need money to live , nobdoy lives on ideology .
No programmers can maintain there infrastructure accountancy , without getting paid .
So people ask what is wrong with sandbox , why are we not getting the audience we want .
Well Jinx answered it , and you know from yourself what you would do , if you are the opposite kind .
You aren´t paying 2 years to play a beta game ..
Im saying sandbox games can demand extra. Im asking is why this new gen gamer is being charged extra when the box price clearly covers all the costs involved for short term gamers given a short termed game? Whether you can get away with charging more or not isnt the question..the question is , is it justified?
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Ah ok yes it is justified .
We live in a modern times where people buy 250.000 $ a piece of virtual relastate in a game like 2nd life .
So money is not the issue , when a product fits people dream ideal .
That most people scream about perfect sandbox , do they have the money to back that scream up ?
That is the biggest question , if you already target the people who moan about box prices and subscription .
In a minority product line , simply means you will have to accept a lesser income .
Gamers are fickle by nature , why a lot of company moves to MMO and games to console is cause of piracy issue .
Why do companies release late patch , so if you pirate the crap , you are out of luck .
It is working against piracy flow they don´t have infinite time and money to spend fixing every new product patch .
Especially with the next hot release on the market they have to hack and crack and pirate .
Piracy is also a company itself , in a different form .
So is it fair to chair gamers money , it depends on what gamers are willing to shell out .
Games that cost 50$-50€ would be unheard off 10 years ago .
Now we even pay about the same price for digital download , without even a CD BoX or manual .
So sorry gamers are changing themself , and money is a issue , but not that glaring issue anymore .
There is no sandbox with good quality or production values. That is the main reason why people don't like them.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Ei! Sorry for the noob question, but can someone explain to me what sandbox and themepark means? I've been hearing these words in the forum several times but I have no idea what they mean.
Played: Runescape, Adventure Quest
Currently playing: Aika Global, Atlantica Online
Waiting for: Cardmon Hero, Dynasty Warriors Online
That is a reason to not like the games that are made following a sandbox theme, not the idea of the sandbox its self.
Themepark - you are given your classes, instances, quests, raids, pvp battlegrounds. You complete them, do the quests, run the raids and farm you gear and your honor points. When you've done all that you do it again or you wait for more content.
Sandbox - you log in, and there is no race to the top, its a world you must survive in by any means, objectives and quests are generally set by the player no the game. Constants of a sandbox tend to be ffa pvp, housing, skill gain system.
In themeparks the gameplay is generally structured. You'll be able to easily identify it if there are steps that are pre-determined for you that you'll need to follow to improve your character for example.
Sandboxes generally have no structure. The world is there for the player to make the choices he wants to make to progress. There are no pre-determined steps to be taken. No quests to lead you from one place to the next for example.
Most games are somewhere in between, with the usual emplasis on the themepark elements, because it's easier developer wise to control the entertainment value this way.
Thanks for the response.
So your saying no alternative is being offered simply because of market demands. Customers are willing to pay for it, not because they don't have other alternatives, but they just don't mind paying more for less. Am I close?
It's hard to tell if sandbox gamers have the money to back up their wants. All attempts were killed. Literally. No more were tried. Even though they were profitable. Singleplayer coop games do wonderful, I guess adding mmo to them wouldnt work in this case for some reason.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Ganking?
This is one of the many reasons I could never get into Darkfall, and Eve is extremely extremely boring. If I had it my way it would be something like UO where players can form their world in PVP land, or PVE land... Remember that feeling you got when you took the portal into Feluca? (Or was that trammel?) Anyways.. I thought I was going to get PKd at every turn, felt dangerous, and all I wanted to do was find a spot to lay down my Tower.
Edit - Stupid forum bug
Simple answer:
Themepark games only differ in theme and sideshows. Like casinos. They all have different themes like hollywood or atlantis or RIO..but theyre still the same experience. You do the same things at each. But they may have unique shows on the side.
Sandbox tries to offer you the experience of being in atlantis or an alien world. The theme dictates the experience. Virtual world like.
Help?
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
We do not know at present times if the market of duo and trio ( small group friends) , will be profitable enough .
SWTOR is going that approach , if it brings the unexpected gamers(not excisting western market including wow) into the market , you know the small coop gaming family .
It could open up more alternative market , and additional investor interest .
Currently a lot of investor are targeting facebook games , cause they have greater chance of success (population market versus % of interest) .
The last question you ask , I do not have a solid answer , simply put Singeplayer Coop are so rare to turn into mmo.
While there concept in my case has been proven NWN , GW , Phantasy star online . just the profit margin or easy bucks .
Is lower then F2P market . but fans are more supportive in return though .
Thanks for taking the time to answer my friend. I appreciate it very much.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.