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Questing and its importance
elistrange
Member Posts: 157
How important is questing in MMORPGs?
Essentialy, the point of questing is to gain experience to level your character and maybe to get gear. In WoW you can gain experience via Questing, Instances, and Battlegrounds. I have a 76 level disc priest that has only completed 30 quests.
WOW has removed the need for questing. Which for me is good since I have two 80's and a quite a few alts. Playing the same storyline over and over again is not really all that appealing. I just sit in ORG and queue up for instances with my healer. However, leveling with instances only really works if you are a tank or a healer, because the queues are nots for DPS.
In EVE Online, everything is skill based. The reason to quest in EVE is basically to earn money and raise your rep with a certain corp, which then unlocks a few things for you.
Eve is a sandbox, what I do in EVE is completely up to me.
But, for the more "traditional" experience based games...I guess my question is...Do we need "questing" as a model to gain experience anymore. I have seen some innovation in this area that seems promising with public quests, and Champions has random citizen runs up to you to announce a break in, and others. Guild Wars II is doing some interesting things in this area also. But, do people even care to quest anymore.
I have to admit that one of my most gratifying experiences playing an MMO has been in WOWs Eastern PLaguelands...a few of the storylines (Battle of Darrowshire) and the one with Tirion's son were amazing. However, those awesome quest lines are few and far between.
Basically, Can MMO's get away with removing the "If you complete quest then get X."
Currently Play: ?
Occasionally Play: Champions, Pirates of the Burning Sea, WOW, EVE ONLINE
Comments
We never needed questing as a way to gain experience.
Questings points are to help new players find places and understand the basics of the games, to tell a story and to hide the grinding a little.
It doesn't really succeed in these things always, in many cases it just changed one grind to another, but in most cases can you do dungeons/instances/whatever instead to gain the XP or just grind mobs.
I think there is room for quests in modern MMOs but we really need to make a difference between a job and a quest.
If a tavern owner hire you for exterminating the rats in his cellar, or if someone pays you to deliver a mail or similar things it is a job, not a quest. I don't mind jobs in MMOs but they should be something you do for some silver, not gear or XP.
A quest on the other hand is something epic, like find the person who killed you father and get revenge, like searching the world for a rare flower that only blooms in the light of the full moon so you can cure the princess from an illness or to find a rare artifact that has been lost for the world... The stuff of legends. Anything you can imagine a fantasy book being written about is a quests.
And I don't really think you should be able to do several quests at once, if you can it should be very few, a quest should be something long and memorable, not something you do every five minutes and forget about the second after.
I don't think a MMO needs any quests at all, but adding some can be rather fun if they are made right.
Being told exactly what to do the entire game is however not fun, it is work.
I think the problem is not the philosophy of a quest, but the design implementation of a quest. What we do now as questing is not a quest at all. It's a task in form of a missive without the letter. Today's questing is very monotonous and bland. At the beginning of WoW's birth, they changed the state of question. And now that state just flatlined. We need a new state of questing.
To me a quest is an adventure. It can't be something done in 1 task. And an adventure to me is something like this. NPC says, join my crusade. Are you willing to find this artifact for me? Now, stop and think. How many other players did this NPC say this too? Hundreds. A designer should take that into account. With forums and fan sites, it will be hard to make it not interesting and surprising. I think that artifcat should be generated in random locations.
While on your adventure to these locations, you should encounter stumbling blocks (that would not be static) in the way that would enchance the lore and gameplay of a quest. Whose not to say you meet an NPC who use to be apart of this crusade and found out the sinister motive behind this NPCs efforts to obtain it. Why can't you decide if you want to band with that NPC and stop his efforts if that NPC is even telling you the truth. A quest should be an adventure that would somewhat compliment a small PnP DnD campaign. There is a linear end result but there should be different branches a player can take to either get to the same end result or make a new end result. And that result should echo in the world.
This is a growing problem in MMO's. They are no longer really MMORPG's.
Quests are there now to shepard people to different parts of the game, or help them level, get gear etc. But that is not what they are suppose to be.
MMORPG's branch from RPG's, which themselves derived from MUD's, which came from table top RPG's, ala D&D, Rolemaster, etc.
Quests are suppose to emulate the adventures game masters/dungeon masters would take you on.
As far as that goes, quests these days are epic fail. They came from their humble roots and are now used as tutorials, ways to get XP, loot and to lead you by the nose from region to region. In short, quests aren't really quests anymore. Even when a quest is well designed, most people overlook the story and just bee line for the phat lootz.
Unfortunately, the current generation of gamers, and probably all those to come after, don't know how to function without being led by the nose. Quest =instant gratification now, it's the only thing they've ever known.
Don't know if there is a fix for this, but quests aren't really necesary for anything anymore, because games are Multiplayer Online......but there is no RPG anymore.
I hate quests. and that means I have one requirement for them. they should be entirely optional. fourth pillar, ugh.
tp answer the question. It depends on the person who is playing the game. I tend to compleetly ignore quests. some might play games just for the questing aspects. You cant really just have a blanket statement saying that they are/arnt i8mportant. It wouldnt work.
Questing is certainly important to many mmorpgs out at the moment. If they removed all the generic 'kill x' quests and tedious gear grind raids from these games people would realise just how shallow, unoriginal and crap the vast majority of mmos are.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Only point I would make is how popular Eve's design is to standard "themepark" games with questing. One of Eve's major complaint from people that do not stay is that it is boring. Also the numbers of people that play questing games vs Eve or even other open sandbox games tells you that there is something missing in the sandbox....even if you put a kid in a sandbox you still have to give him toys to keep him interested.
Games rely on quests when they lack the tools to allow players to pursue their own goals. When those tools are available, players will come up with goals to pursue as well as the set of tasks that are needed to achieve it. A proper MMO will structure the tools such that other players are involved in the process.
For example, EVE Online provides the tools for players to pursue galactic domination. There are a lot of steps along the way and they require the cooperation of lots of other players. Quests are not required. Instead, players often have a to-do list the length of their arm.
Questing's a successful framework for any game (across all genres, in various forms.) The more you get away from it, the less likely a game is to be successful.
Obviously one of the ideal implementations is to have questing be balanced in worth to other gameplay activities, allowing the player freedom to choose between activities (as in WOW.)
Less obvious (but equally important) is the fact that presentation is more important than the fiction itself. You can easily sum up the parts of your favorite book or movie in terms of "kill x", "travel to y", or "deliver z", and yet these are your favorite movies because of the complex and interesting ways they present these simple goals the protagonist achieves.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The less questing the less likely to succeed? What is your definition of questing?
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Gah, I get so tired of seeing people ask for this, as if a random number generator would solve the problem. Randomness decreases the developers' power over what the player experiences; that makes it harder for them to ensure interesting content.
Your example is a good idea, the one about being able to change your quest objective after meeting an NPC who gives you that information. But now what if only 1/4 of the players who do that quest randomly get to meet that NPC? You've just designed content that 3/4 of your playerbase can't experience. Not cool. Ditto for the random artifact location. If there is an ideal location for it, one that has the potential for the most adventure, the most fun, the most appropriate level of challenge, why not always put it there? If it's dangerous but fun to get it back from the basement of Ghoulhaven, and not so dangerous or fun to get it back from Farmer Olaf's Cornfield (and much too dangerous to get it back from Dracolich Stronghold), then it stands to reason that it should always be in Ghoulhaven.
Whether it's the community of friends you can build, the rush of competition in PvP, the soothing and creative outlet of farming materials and crafting or the sense of accomplishment achieved from downing a raid boss, MMORPGs bring something to the table for nearly every gamer. The best MMOs are not necessarily the most popular with the most subscribers. Instead, the best MMO for you depends on many factors, most important of which is your style of play and how much of a social activity you want your play time to be. Pick up a free trial or two and spend some time in an online world. You won't be sorry.
To reply to your first sentence, I should of said, a random atrifact in a set of locations. Perhaps, when you log in on June the 1st, the atrifact is in the Gloomy Mines. When you log back on on May the 8th, the atrifact is moved to the Chambers of the Silent which is hidden in a forest. Why would it be moved? The players wouldn't know it would be moved. It would be moved based on player actions and any significant lore that would compliment such a quest. For giggles, let's say the atrifact was moved because x amount of players found the artifcat in the cave, so the NPCs "hid" it in a random location that was set. I should of been more clear on that.
I was trying to provide an experience in which players can fully influence a world by quests and such. A single shard server means everyone plays on 1 server. This could work if everyone played on 1 server. Not all content will be 1 and done.
As to the example I provided, you assumed because I didn't fully explain. Let me explain more. You highlighted "While on your adventure to these locations, you should encounter stumbling blocks (that would not be static) in the way that would enchance the lore and gameplay of a quest." Depending on a groups path, the stumbling blocks would be altered based on their decisions. Maybe, there are 4 ways to experience one quest at a time. Maybe the reward is not an item but faction points or to reveal lore or hints to a puzzel in a different location. Rewards should not all just be items or experience. Perhaps a more important event took place, such as a world event that would alter certain quests to have different results or omit results. Wouldn't be that frequent, but would happen. I'd like to simulate a living world within the structure of a game. I hope that's clear.
This is kinda stupid but the only quests I ever liked ware the quests in runescape...
I was starting 1 quest each 1-2 days when i was getting bored of skill farming or minigames
To the OP, understandable frustration.
Questing in it's current form serves a purpose for the player to level up their character. Along the way, this allows you to cumulatively earn your skills one by one, there by allowing you time to familiarize yourself with the various abilities of your class. Having a buffering "leveling" time between your levels allows you time to practice and utilize the new skills with your currrent set. Also the questing / leveling curve allows you to progressively attain new gear, for the purposes of "tiering up" for end game encounters.
Furthermore, from the remnant idea of a RPG, questing allows the lore / story of the game-world you are living in to be told.
Having said that, to return to my opening line, I understand fully the frustrations of most gamers.
I think there is so much complaint about MMORPG these days because with the accessibility of fast internet these days, more and more players (and developers) are moving their gaming to the online scene. Most MMORPG players are regular single player game minded, and thus playing a MMORPG with the "kill X number of pigs" quests, which have no bearing on the over-arching storyline, seems pointless, frustrating, and boring. But you have to understand that the character building / strengthing nature of the MMORPG game requires this questing / leveling curve. Afterall, if every tiny quest along the way has to have some significance, then the gameworld will either get to messy, or the story becomes convoluted.
But I guess the question is "why not'? And I think that is something that game developers have yet to catch up on, and I guess it will be the direction of the fabled "next gen" MMORPG. If it is possible for me to play Assassin's Creed, and by the end of the game be better at it then I was at the beginning, and never having to do a single side-quest to "grind up" my level, then why not have the same in a MMORPG? If ultimately all the development resources down the track will be pooled into generating more exciting "end game' content, why not have the game as an "end game" the whole way through? A small epic storyline questing sequence, throughout which you learn to play your class, then BAM, end game here you come. A tutorial-esque questing line, then off you go to collect gear.
I think SWTOR will attempt at this with it's voice casted story base questing, but of course it remains to be seem how the execution of an idea pans out.
Quests be another facet of MMORPGs.
A MMORPG can have as many facets as one can imagine.
Bad quests feel mundane and like jobs - good quests deepen the immersion and catch a story interested player - tutorial quests lessen the entrance hurdle for new players and give some guidance whats going on and how the controls work and what tools to interact with the world be there.
No, players in a mmorpg be not there to be other peoples playthings only!
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Re: random artifact location - Even if all of the possible locations are level-appropriate, you still have the same issue that I mentioned. If there's no quest into the Gloomy Mines anymore, the time spent developing that area was wasted because many players won't be able to experience it. And if the quests shift around so that there's always a few things pointed at the Gloomy Mines, then you need to think really hard about a justification for doing this because it comes with a substantial tradeoff: narrative.
You said before that you could have an in-game reason for a quest objective moving from one place to another. I didn't bother to speak about this because it's not a big deal for one quest—even a weak reason would be just fine. But if numerous quests are designed like Lego bricks that can be re-stuck into whatever combination of locations, it's going to make for a story that is both bland and incoherant. "Duchess's granddaughter kidnapped by Zangothian rebels" is an interesting quest that sheds insight on the motivations of an important and powerful group in the area, and sets the stage for many future encounters involving that group. "Duchess's granddaughter kidnapped by [random group from list D3]" does nothing of the sort.
Re: random encounters that modify a quest - I understand what you're going for, but I'd have to see it to believe it. I don't think such a system could make an MMO feel more alive. With the hundreds (or thousands) of hours that players are going to spend playing the game, it's going to be all too apparent that the random encounters are just a dumb die roll added onto the quest.
Look, you're not understanding what I have been saying. I am speaking of event types of quests. These quest are not the primary means of progression or a primary combat mechanic. Think of event quests like GM events just implemented differently. Only event quests are not static. Event quests help progress the servers main plot line by player actions and choices. After that event is no longer active those quests are no longer active. Event quests do not make up a large portion of the questing mechanics I have in mind. Here is an anology that should help you understand it more clearly.
Think of a quest like a tree. The stump is the starting point. Each branch is the decision that the player makes and each leaf is the NPC that they meet. There may be 10 different choices throughtout leveling up the player can choose from. I don't know the exact number. It's kind of like choose your own adventure books. One side will be for the players story on a small scale and the other side will be implemented by event quests that will be on a worldly scale to change the world.
This is all I am going to say on the matter of the thread for this design. It's my fault for not explaining it clearly. I just didn't want to post too many of my idea structure for the quest mechanic I have in mind in the open..
A formalized goal structure.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Ah, ok. I suppose you may be right then.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.