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TheLizardbones
Member CommonPosts: 10,910
This is something that's been bouncing around my head for awhile, but I don't know if it's a good idea or not. It seems like a good idea to me.
Would it be a good idea to have official game forums for any given game available for access inside the game itself? This would of course require some sort of custom interface and if it used a web browser then steps would have to be taken to ensure that security worked. So we're assuming that (a) it is functional and (b) it's not exploited or that exploits are fixed quickly.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Comments
Ya know EVE already has this. It has an ingame browser, which I have used to look at EVE Central when I was gaming the market. Never thought to read the forums from there.
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
EvE has an in game browser which, while not dedicated for use with their forums, can be used for such. It's also fairly usable for general browsing, but doesn't support Flash I believe. Not to comment on the value it adds to the game or anything, but just as an implementation of the idea you've discussed.
And before the comments/jokes come in about exploitable, I assume you are referring to the browser itself and not the forums so, in that aspect, I think the EvE browser qualifies those criteria.
edit: beat to the punch!
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Depends on the style of the game. Makes sense for a sci fi game like Eve, but for a fantasy game it might be a bit of an immersion killer.
Always read the small print.
EQ2 has an ingame browser as well. I voted No, only because all you have to do is alt tab and load up your forums. I found the browser option in Eve and EQ2 tedious to be honest. I like my google chrome too much.
In-game browsers seem to be popping up in a few games, often tied to the help system. Celetania (closed), Fallen Earth and a few other recent ones now have it. In EVE, there are game features that tie to the browser that are rather neat.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Mozilla, Google, and Opera have put massive amounts of effort into making web browsers that work. Why would a game want to replicate that effort, only to surely end up with a product inferior to the free alternatives? Why not spend that effort working on actual game features or content instead?
If it's purpose built (can only navigate the forums), it'll be as good as either of the alternatives, or perhaps better, as it knows exactly what it will be handling. Weird scripts or support for pages written in old HTML standards won't be an issue.
However, as for the OP, no. Just put the game into windowed mode if you're going to be doing a lot of forum checking as you go. What I would support though, is the wiki system in GW1.
What you could do with this is; put your search terms into part of the UI and a list of links to related subjects would appear. You then click one of the items in the list, and (after confirming) your default browser pops up on that page. A similar system for the official forums would be pretty useful.
Unless it is a browser-based MMO that you are talking about, you probably don't want the web team mucking around in your game feature code. You bring up Google Chrome, and that is exactly what is used as the base for some game browsers since the 2008 release of Chromium. The advantage of the in-game browser, above and beyond the no-tabbing aspect, is that game features and content can also be tied into the integrated browser such as item linking code, character info and other database/gameplay functions.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Until you click on an external link, in which case, suddenly you could be anywhere on the Internet. Or is it supposed to disable external links, in which case, it isn't terribly functional?
It's not just about compatibility with pages, either. Browsers have a lot of features built in. Are they really going to take the time to let you have 20 tabs, implement mouse gestures, and let you have the in-game browser on one monitor while the game itself is on another? If not, then it isn't terribly functional. Other people would want other features, too. And even once the features are in, designing a good UI is not a trivial taskl Hence my point above: it's a bunch of work to make something inferior to the free alternatives. There's no need to reinvent the wheel here.
If it's purpose built (can only navigate the forums), it'll be as good as either of the alternatives, or perhaps better, as it knows exactly what it will be handling. Weird scripts or support for pages written in old HTML standards won't be an issue.
Until you click on an external link, in which case, suddenly you could be anywhere on the Internet. Or is it supposed to disable external links, in which case, it isn't terribly functional?
It's not just about compatibility with pages, either. Browsers have a lot of features built in. Are they really going to take the time to let you have 20 tabs, implement mouse gestures, and let you have the in-game browser on one monitor while the game itself is on another? If not, then it isn't terribly functional. Other people would want other features, too. And even once the features are in, designing a good UI is not a trivial taskl Hence my point above: it's a bunch of work to make something inferior to the free alternatives. There's no need to reinvent the wheel here.
Not sure about with Chrome, but it's fairly trivial with Internet Exploder to integrate many of those features into an in-game browser. I've written a couple purpose built browsers using the IE objects. I'm sure you could do the same with Mozilla, so long as you stuck to the open source license or purchased a separate license for closed source development...if it's possible to buy a license that lets you integrate the open source Mozilla stuff into a closed source application.
I honestly wasn't aware of any games right now that had browsers built into the games. With Eve, it definitely makes sense, given the nature of the game and the amount of information you need to play the game.
If I were to implement it into a game I probably wouldn't take the general purpose browser route. You would go into a town or city and click on a bulletin board looking object and then you would get an interface to the game forums. I would leave much of what people do with it up to the people.
I might separate the In-Game forums from the Out-Of-Game forums (maybe). External links would be tricky...you could either load a purpose build browser window in the game (fairly trivial with Internet Explorer, not so trivial, but doable with Mozilla) or just have the game minimize and open a browser window. A popup could let you know you're leaving the game window for an external window. If the forums were separated between In-Game and Out-Of-Game, the external links wouldn't be allowed in the In-Game forums.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Let's suppose for the sake of argument that you can give the in-game browser all of the functionality and customizability of an external browser. And let's suppose that you can do this pretty easily.
That leaves one huge question unanswered: why would you? What's the point of viewing the forums on a browser built into a game, rather than an external browser? I see no advantage to it, but only potential problems.
For example, what happens if either the browser or the game crashes? If they're independent programs, then either can crash and restart without bringing down the other. What happens if you lose your connection to the game server and it kicks you back to the login window or character selection screen or whatever? Does that interfere with the browser use at all?
Everyone already has a browser on their computer and you can just press alt+tab to switch to it. In some really complex games, like EVE, I can see why an in-game browser might be usable. But in most of the games it would be a lot more trouble than it's worth.
EDIT: I think including a browser but allowing it to be used only in major cities would be the most stupid thing ever, who wants to switch from in-game browser to out-of-game browser and back while they travel around the game world? /EDIT
I think having a little RSS ticker that you could enable would be ok. It would get more attention for in game events and educate more players about their game.
Tyrust - EQ
Proximo - EQII
Proximo - Warhammer Online
Fogerty - Vanguard
Already answered that. Is it that you didn't like the answer or that you disagree with the answer?
EDIT: Another great feature, actually, is that players in game and players out of game can maintain regular contact so guilds, clans, and various server/shard communities (RP, event, PVP, raiding, faction) have a referencable and consistent line of communication. As more developers build browser-based content that integrates with ther 3D games two-way communication between in-game and external players will probably expand much farther than just forums.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Upon re-reading your posts, I don't see where you mention any advantage to an in-game browser. Asserting that a few games do have an in-game browser doesn't give any explanation of why they should. A help system and linking items doesn't require a full-fledged browser; indeed, help systems for computer programs predate web browsers. Plenty of games manage to display character info without needing a browser to do it; what advantage does a browser offer here?
Players in- and out- of game can maintain regular contact on game forums without needing an in-game browser for it. Again, what advantage does an in-game browser offer here? The question isn't, what can you do with a web browser? Rather, the question is, what can you do with a web browser built into the game that you can't do with an external web browser? And I don't see an answer to that in this thread.
I guess if the problem is that a game is buggy so that trying to switch to a different program doesn't work right (e.g., Vanguard), then having the in-game browser so that you don't have to switch would be an advantage. But surely it's both easier and more effective to simply fix the problem of switching out of the game not working properly.
For that matter, why have custom chat channels or a text mail system in game when Outlook and IRC serve that function so much better and do not take up developer time? The same with voice communication like the Vivox feature in games such as EVE and Combat Arms. But, like the ingame voice chat, the integrated browsers offer additional features that tie directly in with the game,
Why is the convenience of being able to access the game forums - as much part of the game content and game community as every other aspect - in game something that bothers you? There's nothing to prevent you from tabbing out and using your own browser if you choose to do so. This seems like a really odd feature to take issue with.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
EDIT: Another great feature, actually, is that players in game and players out of game can maintain regular contact so guilds, clans, and various server/shard communities (RP, event, PVP, raiding, faction) have a referencable and consistent line of communication. As more developers build browser-based content that integrates with ther 3D games two-way communication between in-game and external players will probably expand much farther than just forums.
Upon re-reading your posts, I don't see where you mention any advantage to an in-game browser. Asserting that a few games do have an in-game browser doesn't give any explanation of why they should. A help system and linking items doesn't require a full-fledged browser; indeed, help systems for computer programs predate web browsers. Plenty of games manage to display character info without needing a browser to do it; what advantage does a browser offer here?
Players in- and out- of game can maintain regular contact on game forums without needing an in-game browser for it. Again, what advantage does an in-game browser offer here? The question isn't, what can you do with a web browser? Rather, the question is, what can you do with a web browser built into the game that you can't do with an external web browser? And I don't see an answer to that in this thread.
I guess if the problem is that a game is buggy so that trying to switch to a different program doesn't work right (e.g., Vanguard), then having the in-game browser so that you don't have to switch would be an advantage. But surely it's both easier and more effective to simply fix the problem of switching out of the game not working properly.
Some assumptions are made with this thought experiment:
* The in-game browser or forum viewer works as intended. It's not buggy, doesn't cause a huge system load, etc.
* It's not necessarily a Web Browser. It's an interface to forums for the game. This could be all of the game forums, or it could be forums specifically for the server you are currently playing on.
* It's not necessarily limited to being just a forum viewer. It could very well be a general purpose web browser that's visible in the game. Different games would have different requirements.
* It's not limited to forum functionality. It could be part of the in-game mail system.
As far as why, that's up to the people using it. Training aid, guild message forums, event organization, etc. It doesn't matter what you intend to do with it, hte users will find something you didn't expect to do with it and that unexpected use might be the primary use they put it to.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Real-time chat systems are an entirely different critter from forums. A forum is used for communication where, if you post something today and I read it tomorrow, that's fine. The in-game chat system is for things that players need to see right then. A forum won't work for that, whether built into the game or external.
Furthermore, an in-game chat box can go in the corner of a screen and not take up much monitor space. Forums don't work like that, and if you have a forum box big enough to be useful, you're not going to be able to play the game at the same time while that's up.
The main reason for a mail system is to transfer items between characters, and the reasons why an external e-mail program can't do that should be obvious. Even for messages sent through mail, there's a difference between, I want to say something and whoever wants to read it can, as on a forum, as opposed to, I want this particular person to get this message, and no one else.
"Training aid, guild message forums, event organization, etc."
If you want to have a calendar built in, or a guild message system, or help files, or whatever, go ahead. But why a forum?
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"Why is the convenience of being able to access the game forums - as much part of the game content and game community as every other aspect - in game something that bothers you? There's nothing to prevent you from tabbing out and using your own browser if you choose to do so. This seems like a really odd feature to take issue with."
If there were infinite development time and resources available, then I'd say sure, go ahead and have random useless features built in. They're not harming anything.
But that's not the world we live in. Developers only have so much available. If they put a bunch of work into coding one feature, then that development time isn't available to code some other feature. It's a matter of priorities. Harmless but also useless is a waste, when there are other features that would actually have a point.
And there's the rub: what does an in-game forum offer that an external forum doesn't? You can have an external forum linked to your game login credentials, so that you don't have to register separately. Indeed, many games already do this.
I read game forums while playing online games all the time. For that matter, I read this forum while playing online games. External web browsers work very well for that purpose, and I don't see any advantages to having one built into the game. As far as I can tell, neither do you (plural). Or at least if you do, you're keeping it a secret.
The advantage, if there is one, would be giving people something they want while playing a game, or while somewhere else. People who are in the game and people who are out of the game could have forum style communications.
There is no other purpose beyond some people might want it. Personally, I think it would be kind of neat to have a forum style communication system in a game town. Initially, I wouldn't implement it for the general forums, but just for each town, then possibly server wide at max level.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Hmm, it might work if done right. But not with a built in browser.
If you had a certain building you could enter and the threads of the last 24 hours were stting up like notes you could click on to read and add your posts to, sure. Older ones could be in books. That would actually add to the fun.
The downside is that people need to be able to read and write when the game is down as well.
Except that we already have that right now, using external web browsers. What advantage is there to giving players a second, inferior way to do the same thing? Even if you want to be optimistic about it and say that it won't be worse, but won't be better, either, still, what's the point? It needs to be clearly better at something to have a point, as otherwise, it's a waste of development time.
It's kind of like how, if everyone and his neighbor's dog can get a weapon that deals 100 damage easily, then what point is there to adding another weapon that is identical except that it does 80 damage rather than 100?
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Any forum-like communication system that says you have to be in a particular town to communicate won't be used much unless the usual alternatives aren't there. And if the usual alternatives aren't there, then the fix is to create them, not some gimpy, awkward version of them.
Your argument in favor of mail was interesting, since sending items in in-game mail only came years after mail was in-game. Was it a waste of resources prior to that?
As to your 'developer resources are better spent elsewhere', it's already been said that a) there are several exisitng plug-in solutions for both IE (shdocvw.dll) and Chrome (Chromium, webkit) that require minimal dev time. Add to that, most devs probably wouldn't have been using Web Cell to rig models or code new game mechanics, so web-related content is probably a more suitable use for them.
If you don't want the answers people have given you, that's fine. But to say no one knows the answers or that anyone is keeping it a secret from you in the same thread where people are pointing out the convenience and game integration over and over again is kind of silly, no? Just because a feature has no value to you doesn't mean that others don't find value in it. You really need to keep that in mind when trying to understand why certain mechanics and features exist in games.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Picture a contemporary or sci-fi game that had an in-game browser to check out the forums and sites, but replaced advertising cookies with custom ones by fictional products in the game. Call it "Bozilla" or "Netscrap" on the home page and have ads for sugar krank cereal and chocolate cola on your favorite sites.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Why are you obsessing over the "point"? The point, as I stated, is that some people might want it (50%+ of the people taking the poll so far). That's really it. Some people may actually want to have their server specific forums, which they use for guild recruitment, etc. in the game rather than outside the game. Some people may even want access to all the game's forums inside the game. There are no technical reasons it can't be done. It's already been done in some games, but as a more general purpose web browser rather than something focused specifically on the game.
If you want a technical or marketing reason, it gives people who wouldn't normally get involved in any sort of forum communication involved since it's part of the game. A very small number of people who play a game actually post on the forums. If the forums, instead of being about a game are instead part of the game, people would be more likely to get involved.
Here's another reason - you wouldn't have to alt-tab out of the game to look something up (if you've implemented a decent in-game web browser). That's more convenient.
These aren't my reasons, they're just reasons I can think of that some people might actually want something like that. You don't have to agree with them. That's why there's a "No" option in the poll up there. Not every idea works for every person. That's just the way the world works.
* edit * 47.3%, not 50%+.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
"Some people might want it for no apparent reason in particular" isn't a reason why people would want it. You could say that of any conceivable feature, no matter how useless.
"you wouldn't have to alt-tab out of the game to look something up (if you've implemented a decent in-game web browser). That's more convenient."
Unless, of course, you happen to be running this newfangled operating system called Windows that lets you run multiple programs at the same time and switch the active window by clicking on the one you want. You know, the same OS listed in the system requirements for virtually every modern PC game there is. And indeed, that's likely to be more convenient than having to switch between a game window that fills up the screen and a browser window that fills up the game window.
For what it's worth, when I play Champions Online and check the mail system, most commonly to pick up items that I'm passing between characters, you know what I do if I happen to see a lengthy mail message from another player? I switch to Opera and click on the "private messages" link from the forum to read the message. That's an easier and more convenient way to read the message even when the message in-game is already right in front of me in the game window, because having a fully featured browser that fills an entire monitor screen makes things a lot easier to read, and, if appropriate, reply. It also lets me continue playing the game somewhat as I read the message and consider a reply, which is hard to do if the message is blocking the game window.