Virtus, you promised that you will post here, don't forget it ! And please include some info about the company's policy for macroers, and explain us why you guys let them to break the ToS ?
And I'm glad it sounds like they're actively working to find macroers. I think the one thing most people are forgetting, tho, is that macroing is hard to catch. You don't have to change any files in the game so they can't just search for that like with aimbots etc. Hopefully more people will go Sudo's route and actually be active in reporting potential macroers.
The Guide said "he'll have fun macroing in the middle of the lake"; since you cannot macro when swimming I think he meant it as a joke.
Thats how I took it as well. But what seems to escape many people... If a games dynamics are so mind boggling boring that people turn to macro's, perhaps something is wrong at a fundamental level? Sure many people are lazy, but grind for the sake of grind is a poor game design element.
The Guide said "he'll have fun macroing in the middle of the lake"; since you cannot macro when swimming I think he meant it as a joke.
Thats how I took it as well. But what seems to escape many people... If a games dynamics are so mind boggling boring that people turn to macro's, perhaps something is wrong at a fundamental level? Sure many people are lazy, but grind for the sake of grind is a poor game design element.
Teddybear tells the truth.
"Only in quiet waters do things mirror themselves undistorted. Only in a quiet mind is adequate perception of the world." Hans Margolius
Originally posted by Wraithone ... If a games dynamics are so mind boggling boring that people turn to macro's ...
People do not turn to macros because they find something boring, they turn to macros to be "better" than other players.
- Running isn't boring when you want to run to some place, but some people just run for days against a wall because they think they're "better" when they're doing that.
- Jumping isn't boring when you need to jump over something, but some people jump for days into the air over and over again because they think they're "better" when they're doing that.
- Swimming isn't boring when you need to get to that island or need to cross that river, but some people swim for days against a cliff because they think they're "better" when they're doing that.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
If it's not fun to skill up in a skill based game, why play it? There's plenty of cookie-cutter games out there that could be played instead. The whole point of a skill based game is to create the character you want with the skills you want. But you get people macroing their character, then all they do is whine about being bored because they "reached the top" too fast.
The Guide said "he'll have fun macroing in the middle of the lake"; since you cannot macro when swimming I think he meant it as a joke.
Thats how I took it as well. But what seems to escape many people... If a games dynamics are so mind boggling boring that people turn to macro's, perhaps something is wrong at a fundamental level? Sure many people are lazy, but grind for the sake of grind is a poor game design element.
Well, for some comparison here, my character was built with terraforming as one of my main skills, once I started the game I was terraforming quite a bit, (which can be tedious but pretty fun). At the end of 2 days (roughly 6 - 8 hours of terraforming) my skill went from 25 to 90... thats pretty close to max... just a few more hours and I would have likely maxed it, but I finished the job and moved on.
Scavenging (which this guy got busted for) seems to take more time as you can't just sit there and do that in one place, you have to move... and if you want to actually get something for your work, you do it on junk piles. I didn't have scavenging as one of my starting skills, so I started at 5... I've scavenged for about 4 -5 hours total and I'm at 62 right now. I've also found a few old saw blades (rare items) a shovel, an extra axe.. and tons of items like currency, screws and nails (which are scarce in metal piles.. might get 10 or 15, but when scavenging you can get drops of 30+ easily.) and of course, items to make weapons, like feathers, bats, and knife blades.
Some skills, like crafting, takes much longer.... as a tool crafter I'm at level 60 in tool crafting, and it took me about 8 - 12 hours to do that... because you have to gather, craft, remove from your inventory, rinse-repeat. Tedious, but not really macro-able anyways due to all of that and running out of energy.
I haven't logged in for the past 2 days or so, and play Xsyon very casually (as my tribe is small and we can't all get on at the same times). If these guys are macroing they are likely PvP junkies, as the only way to really raise your attack abilities is to level, then spend the extra points on those. Not leveling up crafts through actually crafting won't yield you any new recipes, so its pointless to waste the points on those.
... If a games dynamics are so mind boggling boring that people turn to macro's ...
People do not turn to macros because they find something boring, they turn to macros to be "better" than other players.
- Running isn't boring when you want to run to some place, but some people just run for days against a wall because they think they're "better" when they're doing that.
- Jumping isn't boring when you need to jump over something, but some people jump for days into the air over and over again because they think they're "better" when they're doing that.
- Swimming isn't boring when you need to get to that island or need to cross that river, but some people swim for days against a cliff because they think they're "better" when they're doing that.
Well, being the player in question, I can tell you that you are spouting complete bullshit.
Before getting into that, let me first make something clear:
The GM in question issued a warning to me immediately. With an explanation that if I did it again, I would be banned for a few days, possibly forever, depending on the infraction. Seemed to be the standard approach.
The reason for some of the more problematic comments the GM made stemmed from a conversation I had with the GM a few days earlier regarding a stuck situation, where it seems she recognised my name from Darkfall, and knew the guild I was in there. I have no clue who the GM is though - and would not have expected any leniency. I suspect he/she was trying to give the OP a chance to administer justice internally first. But he/she did issue the warning within 10 minutes after the incident, regardless.
With that out of the way let me describe my infraction and motivations:
In Xsyon you can scavenge for stuff, and it is a skill that you can improve. It consists of moving from spot to spot(you can do it everywhere) to dig the ground. In terms of keypresses its: Hold W/A/S/D for 4-6 secs, press whatever key you have assigned the skill to on your hotbar, wait 6 secs for result. Repeat.
I was doing that for while, a lot of the time watching some movie or series - because lets face it; doing the above does not constitute much entertainment.
And at some some point the programmer in me kicked in and said: "All these keypresses can be automated". So I did. I was still sitting there, watching the tvseries or movie, but now I just had to monitor the status of my character and adjust the movement. Much less efficient, but also lot less mindnumbing.
When I was busted for doing this, I had the game running at work, screen moved out of the way so all that was visible was the lower part allowing me to monitor the energy and food status of my character. Chat not being visible - so I was not seeing either the OP or the GM trying to contact me.
So when I moved the screen back in to see if I were where I thought I was - I wasn't - and I figured I had been moved by a GM - which a quick check of my email confirmed.
Thats more or less how it went down.
To return to the claims made in the quote above: No, I was not macroing to feel "better". I was macroing to make my computer make the keypresses for me - keypresses that I would have made regardless. I would have been better of in terms of skills by doing them myself, but chose the other approach to increase my enjoyment of the game - and because the task of automating it represented a more engaging exercise (albeit an extremely simple one). The time spent on making and adjusting it, combined with the lack of efficiency, definately meant that my gains were less than they would have been, had I just kept doing it manually - but I had more fun. Based on the combined effeciency I would even argue that whether I violated the ToS becomes a rather philosophical discussion.
(ToS rule 5.3: Use of third party software that would give you or anyone else an advantage of any form.)
I have been upfront about my approach now, so will leave that decision up to the reader and can appreciate an opinion either way. Which is also why it did not give me cause to take up that point with the GMs.
There are probably people that fit into the description in the quote above. But mostly you will find that people that macro do it:
1) This is the main reason: Because you can. If an action increases your ability and that action can be automated easily and by its level of entertainment invites it, why would you not do it? (Apart from the ToS saying you are not allowed to, of course.)
2) To avoid carpal tunnel syndrome. if the interface or the gamedesign requires a lot of mousemoving and clicking to do menial and repetetive tasks, this becomes a real issue and a macro alleviates it. I crafted like a madman in Xsyon yesterday - and had I not had the experience being debated in this thread, I would probably have looked at automating a lot of that mousemoving and clicking. Because my hand and wrist was complaining. The same small movements over and over and over and over. You have to select every ingredient and tool for every single item you craft - even if you craft the same one 500 times in a row and have it all in your backpack.
Let me end of on where I stand in general on the issue:
Can't remember where I saw the quote, but I think it applies: "If your business idea cannot survive a macro, you don't really have a business idea".
I have no philosophical objection to macroing. As long as it does not enable you to perform actions you could not do yourself and does not exploit bugs, I have no objections with how you interact with the game. You pay for the game and your playtime. You decide how to utilise that time. I have a big objection to gameplay mechanics that encourages it though.
I think the OP is completely wrong on macroing destroying the games he mentioned. Quite the contrary. It kept them alive. It keeps players logged on that would otherwise not bother due to the gameplay aspects that required mindnumbing and repetetive tasks to progress the most efficient way. Which in many cases meant they were there to interact with if a more engaging gameplay aspect presented itself. It kept players competive, that either didn't have the time or the ability to suffer through mindnumbingly boring actions. When skills levels become a measure of who can endure unengaging work-like actions the most, it is a problem for the game. Not the players seeking to lessen that pain.
The moment a task is macroed, the answer should not be to punish those who are doing it, but to either facilitate it for all players, or come up with a game mechanic that rewards those who don't. Darkfall took a step in the right direction when they upped the reward for hitting npcs/mobs, fx (wasn't enough, but it was the right idea). A task that invites and facilitates macroing is a sign of unengaging gameplay mechanics that is perceived as work rather than entertainment. It detaches the player from the game, instead of pulling them in.
In the case at hand: Reward the player for scavenging in a way that he could not do blindfolded or train a very smart dog to do. Engage him and reward him for being engaged. And either remove or significantly lower the reward for doing it in a repetetive and unengaging way.
Don't install the MMO variant of DRMs that basically just increases the attractiveness of macros and makes playing more miserable for those who don't.
That being said, my macroing days in Xsyon are over. I see a lot of (severely unpolished and unfinished) potential in the game and would like to be along for the ride for now. I won't have issues with other people macroing and I won't have issues with other people reporting them.
But if it starts becoming a huge issue, I will have my doubts about the games future - not because of the macroers - but because of the warning sign about the game mechanics that it is.
That being said, my macroing days in Xsyon are over. I see a lot of (severely unpolished and unfinished) potential in the game and would like to be along for the ride for now. I won't have issues with other people macroing and I won't have issues with other people reporting them.
But if it starts becoming a huge issue, I will have my doubts about the games future - not because of the macroers - but because of the warning sign about the game mechanics that it is.
First of all, welcome to the forums, T.
I'm glad that you've decided to stop macroing. I absolutely agree with you that bad developement choices forced you and many others to macro certain abilities. I, too, don't enjoy scavenging, fishing or doing any other monotonic task for hours, it's no fun at all.
My choice is simply to not to do those for too long. If you are getting bored after 10 minutes of scavenging manually, just stop Yes, the game isn't perfect. Other than boring game mechanics, it has many other well known issues. Sadly, we are here for the simple reason that there are no other games that'd suit our current gaming tastes at the moment and we should try to make our best of what we've got.
I say we stick to it for as long as we can without macroing and hope for the best...
See ya in game
"Only in quiet waters do things mirror themselves undistorted. Only in a quiet mind is adequate perception of the world." Hans Margolius
... If a games dynamics are so mind boggling boring that people turn to macro's ...
People do not turn to macros because they find something boring, they turn to macros to be "better" than other players.
- Running isn't boring when you want to run to some place, but some people just run for days against a wall because they think they're "better" when they're doing that.
- Jumping isn't boring when you need to jump over something, but some people jump for days into the air over and over again because they think they're "better" when they're doing that.
- Swimming isn't boring when you need to get to that island or need to cross that river, but some people swim for days against a cliff because they think they're "better" when they're doing that.
Well, being the player in question, I can tell you that you are spouting complete bullshit.
Before getting into that, let me first make something clear:
The GM in question issued a warning to me immediately. With an explanation that if I did it again, I would be banned for a few days, possibly forever, depending on the infraction. Seemed to be the standard approach.
The reason for some of the more problematic comments the GM made stemmed from a conversation I had with the GM a few days earlier regarding a stuck situation, where it seems she recognised my name from Darkfall, and knew the guild I was in there. I have no clue who the GM is though - and would not have expected any leniency. I suspect he/she was trying to give the OP a chance to administer justice internally first. But he/she did issue the warning within 10 minutes after the incident, regardless.
With that out of the way let me describe my infraction and motivations:
In Xsyon you can scavenge for stuff, and it is a skill that you can improve. It consists of moving from spot to spot(you can do it everywhere) to dig the ground. In terms of keypresses its: Hold W/A/S/D for 4-6 secs, press whatever key you have assigned the skill to on your hotbar, wait 6 secs for result. Repeat.
I was doing that for while, a lot of the time watching some movie or series - because lets face it; doing the above does not constitute much entertainment.
And at some some point the programmer in me kicked in and said: "All these keypresses can be automated". So I did. I was still sitting there, watching the tvseries or movie, but now I just had to monitor the status of my character and adjust the movement. Much less efficient, but also lot less mindnumbing.
When I was busted for doing this, I had the game running at work, screen moved out of the way so all that was visible was the lower part allowing me to monitor the energy and food status of my character. Chat not being visible - so I was not seeing either the OP or the GM trying to contact me.
So when I moved the screen back in to see if I were where I thought I was - I wasn't - and I figured I had been moved by a GM - which a quick check of my email confirmed.
Thats more or less how it went down.
To return to the claims made in the quote above: No, I was not macroing to feel "better". I was macroing to make my computer make the keypresses for me - keypresses that I would have made regardless. I would have been better of in terms of skills by doing them myself, but chose the other approach to increase my enjoyment of the game - and because the task of automating it represented a more engaging exercise (albeit an extremely simple one). The time spent on making and adjusting it, combined with the lack of efficiency, definately meant that my gains were less than they would have been, had I just kept doing it manually - but I had more fun. Based on the combined effeciency I would even argue that whether I violated the ToS becomes a rather philosophical discussion.
(ToS rule 5.3: Use of third party software that would give you or anyone else an advantage of any form.)
I have been upfront about my approach now, so will leave that decision up to the reader and can appreciate an opinion either way. Which is also why it did not give me cause to take up that point with the GMs.
There are probably people that fit into the description in the quote above. But mostly you will find that people that macro do it:
1) This is the main reason: Because you can. If an action increases your ability and that action can be automated easily and by its level of entertainment invites it, why would you not do it? (Apart from the ToS saying you are not allowed to, of course.)
2) To avoid carpal tunnel syndrome. if the interface or the gamedesign requires a lot of mousemoving and clicking to do menial and repetetive tasks, this becomes a real issue and a macro alleviates it. I crafted like a madman in Xsyon yesterday - and had I not had the experience being debated in this thread, I would probably have looked at automating a lot of that mousemoving and clicking. Because my hand and wrist was complaining. The same small movements over and over and over and over. You have to select every ingredient and tool for every single item you craft - even if you craft the same one 500 times in a row and have it all in your backpack.
Let me end of on where I stand in general on the issue:
Can't remember where I saw the quote, but I think it applies: "If your business idea cannot survive a macro, you don't really have a business idea".
I have no philosophical objection to macroing. As long as it does not enable you to perform actions you could not do yourself and does not exploit bugs, I have no objections with how you interact with the game. You pay for the game and your playtime. You decide how to utilise that time. I have a big objection to gameplay mechanics that encourages it though.
I think the OP is completely wrong on macroing destroying the games he mentioned. Quite the contrary. It kept them alive. It keeps players logged on that would otherwise not bother due to the gameplay aspects that required mindnumbing and repetetive tasks to progress the most efficient way. Which in many cases meant they were there to interact with if a more engaging gameplay aspect presented itself. It kept players competive, that either didn't have the time or the ability to suffer through mindnumbingly boring actions. When skills levels become a measure of who can endure unengaging work-like actions the most, it is a problem for the game. Not the players seeking to lessen that pain.
The moment a task is macroed, the answer should not be to punish those who are doing it, but to either facilitate it for all players, or come up with a game mechanic that rewards those who don't. Darkfall took a step in the right direction when they upped the reward for hitting npcs/mobs, fx (wasn't enough, but it was the right idea). A task that invites and facilitates macroing is a sign of unengaging gameplay mechanics that is perceived as work rather than entertainment. It detaches the player from the game, instead of pulling them in.
In the case at hand: Reward the player for scavenging in a way that he could not do blindfolded or train a very smart dog to do. Engage him and reward him for being engaged. And either remove or significantly lower the reward for doing it in a repetetive and unengaging way.
Don't install the MMO variant of DRMs that basically just increases the attractiveness of macros and makes playing more miserable for those who don't.
That being said, my macroing days in Xsyon are over. I see a lot of (severely unpolished and unfinished) potential in the game and would like to be along for the ride for now. I won't have issues with other people macroing and I won't have issues with other people reporting them.
But if it starts becoming a huge issue, I will have my doubts about the games future - not because of the macroers - but because of the warning sign about the game mechanics that it is.
Always glad to read cheaters leaving the game. Go for a chinese grind game!
Always glad to read cheaters leaving the game. Go for a chinese grind game!
And I am always glad to see people replying with the entire megapost, that they obviously did not read, embedded.
If you had read it, you might have understood that I am not leaving and that it is exactly the aspects of the game the constitutes your chinese grinding that I was mitigating with a simple, attended, key macro.
There are many other promising aspects of the game, that I enjoy without even contemplating a macro. Speaking for myself it is not the drive to maximise skills that makes me create a macro. It is when required actions are unengaging, boring and extremely repetitive that the concept of macroing presents itself. Its human nature to automate such things when possible.
It is no more cheating than crossing at a red light when there are no cars.
Macroing is not a problem - its a symptom. It should be encouraged. When you realise that, you might devote your energy to requesting an actual cure, instead of defending and enabling the sickness.
Not that it matters, but UO wasn't ruined by unattended macro'ing.
And, man, what a whistle blower.
For the people that are always concerned that someone else might have more than them, botting was a devastating plague to UO.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Not that it matters, but UO wasn't ruined by unattended macro'ing.
And, man, what a whistle blower.
For the people that are always concerned that someone else might have more than them, botting was a devastating plague to UO.
That now pretty much sums up everyone in the current 'I can haz shinies?!' mmo generation, sadly.
I just envisioned a kitten with massive, tacky shoulderpads riding a spectral tiger mount.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Not that it matters, but UO wasn't ruined by unattended macro'ing.
And, man, what a whistle blower.
For the people that are always concerned that someone else might have more than them, botting was a devastating plague to UO.
Perhaps "botting" was an issue that occurred after my time (up until the release of AOS), because during my experience it was fairly well known that skill macro'ing was accepted and encouraged en masse if you wanted to be a serious player. As for botting, or gold farming which I'll assume it was being used for, it certainly wasn't anything that I ever observed during my years of (obsessive) activity. As far as I'm concerned, even if botters are a reason that the game today is worse off than it was years before, the developers had already killed what made it so special several expansions ago.
TL;DR? UO wasn't ruined by botting or macroing, but by the developers. Your opinion may vary.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Dude......is that the same ravnos from EverQuest Classic Server....
Because honestly if he is, i need to warn the community. This guy literally almost ruined my entire return to classic EQ because he was ks'ing mobs like he was a demon. He literally hid behind a tree and stole the SHINY BRASS SHIELD from my buddy and i after we had camped trainer hill for hours.
Watch out for him in xsyon ksing your animals or junk. He will try to defend himself but its all bullshit. He and Itankrangers were in the same guild stealing shit. Report em.
Says you played Everquest in your profile. You can't hide from us you kser. Trusark and i have found you, and we will let the community know the monster you truly are!
Haha...I never said I didn't play EQ. I played for about 2 weeks approx. 6yrs ago. But like I said, I have only ever used the name Ravnos in the Tribes series. But keep believing that I'm the only person who has used the name Ravnos for anything. Of all the people who have ever played table-top Vampire, I'm the only one who has ever used the name of one of the clans for anything.
I find it funny when people feel the need to macro when they can't max out in a game in 24hrs so they say the game is broken etc and they need to macro or its boring, well sounds like all games are boring, I remember asheron call 1 it took for every to max level until the macroers came and ruined it because people can't hack it, so they cheat.
I maxed out my skills in Xsyon without cheating take the time to talk to guild mates while doing the boring stuff thats what I do and that makes it less painful....
Haha...I never said I didn't play EQ. I played for about 2 weeks approx. 6yrs ago. But like I said, I have only ever used the name Ravnos in the Tribes series. But keep believing that I'm the only person who has used the name Ravnos for anything. Of all the people who have ever played table-top Vampire, I'm the only one who has ever used the name of one of the clans for anything.
trusting a Ravnos is like taking advice from a Malkavian. That being said , it's unlikely that Ravnos is a unique handle.
Handles are important for Ravnos, slippery things that they are.
That being said, my macroing days in Xsyon are over. I see a lot of (severely unpolished and unfinished) potential in the game and would like to be along for the ride for now. I won't have issues with other people macroing and I won't have issues with other people reporting them.
But if it starts becoming a huge issue, I will have my doubts about the games future - not because of the macroers - but because of the warning sign about the game mechanics that it is.
First of all, welcome to the forums, T.
I'm glad that you've decided to stop macroing. I absolutely agree with you that bad developement choices forced you and many others to macro certain abilities. I, too, don't enjoy scavenging, fishing or doing any other monotonic task for hours, it's no fun at all.
My choice is simply to not to do those for too long. If you are getting bored after 10 minutes of scavenging manually, just stop Yes, the game isn't perfect. Other than boring game mechanics, it has many other well known issues. Sadly, we are here for the simple reason that there are no other games that'd suit our current gaming tastes at the moment and we should try to make our best of what we've got.
I say we stick to it for as long as we can without macroing and hope for the best...
See ya in game
Im sorry, but what the hell are you talking about? He was forced to macro? I dont care how bad the game is coded or designed, cheating is cheating. Everyone has a choice, this player and many others choose to cheat, just like people choose to commit crimes. Just because you cannot get what you want, when you want it, does not give you license to be a douche. Cheaters cheat because they think they are special, both in game and in real life. Fact is, they are simply douches in both.
Comments
Virtus, you promised that you will post here, don't forget it ! And please include some info about the company's policy for macroers, and explain us why you guys let them to break the ToS ?
I'm glad they did something about that guide.
And I'm glad it sounds like they're actively working to find macroers. I think the one thing most people are forgetting, tho, is that macroing is hard to catch. You don't have to change any files in the game so they can't just search for that like with aimbots etc. Hopefully more people will go Sudo's route and actually be active in reporting potential macroers.
The Guide said "he'll have fun macroing in the middle of the lake"; since you cannot macro when swimming I think he meant it as a joke.
Thats how I took it as well. But what seems to escape many people... If a games dynamics are so mind boggling boring that people turn to macro's, perhaps something is wrong at a fundamental level? Sure many people are lazy, but grind for the sake of grind is a poor game design element.
Teddybear tells the truth.
"Only in quiet waters do things mirror themselves undistorted.
Only in a quiet mind is adequate perception of the world."
Hans Margolius
- Running isn't boring when you want to run to some place, but some people just run for days against a wall because they think they're "better" when they're doing that.
- Jumping isn't boring when you need to jump over something, but some people jump for days into the air over and over again because they think they're "better" when they're doing that.
- Swimming isn't boring when you need to get to that island or need to cross that river, but some people swim for days against a cliff because they think they're "better" when they're doing that.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
If it's not fun to skill up in a skill based game, why play it? There's plenty of cookie-cutter games out there that could be played instead. The whole point of a skill based game is to create the character you want with the skills you want. But you get people macroing their character, then all they do is whine about being bored because they "reached the top" too fast.
Well, for some comparison here, my character was built with terraforming as one of my main skills, once I started the game I was terraforming quite a bit, (which can be tedious but pretty fun). At the end of 2 days (roughly 6 - 8 hours of terraforming) my skill went from 25 to 90... thats pretty close to max... just a few more hours and I would have likely maxed it, but I finished the job and moved on.
Scavenging (which this guy got busted for) seems to take more time as you can't just sit there and do that in one place, you have to move... and if you want to actually get something for your work, you do it on junk piles. I didn't have scavenging as one of my starting skills, so I started at 5... I've scavenged for about 4 -5 hours total and I'm at 62 right now. I've also found a few old saw blades (rare items) a shovel, an extra axe.. and tons of items like currency, screws and nails (which are scarce in metal piles.. might get 10 or 15, but when scavenging you can get drops of 30+ easily.) and of course, items to make weapons, like feathers, bats, and knife blades.
Some skills, like crafting, takes much longer.... as a tool crafter I'm at level 60 in tool crafting, and it took me about 8 - 12 hours to do that... because you have to gather, craft, remove from your inventory, rinse-repeat. Tedious, but not really macro-able anyways due to all of that and running out of energy.
I haven't logged in for the past 2 days or so, and play Xsyon very casually (as my tribe is small and we can't all get on at the same times). If these guys are macroing they are likely PvP junkies, as the only way to really raise your attack abilities is to level, then spend the extra points on those. Not leveling up crafts through actually crafting won't yield you any new recipes, so its pointless to waste the points on those.
Well, being the player in question, I can tell you that you are spouting complete bullshit.
Before getting into that, let me first make something clear:
The GM in question issued a warning to me immediately. With an explanation that if I did it again, I would be banned for a few days, possibly forever, depending on the infraction. Seemed to be the standard approach.
The reason for some of the more problematic comments the GM made stemmed from a conversation I had with the GM a few days earlier regarding a stuck situation, where it seems she recognised my name from Darkfall, and knew the guild I was in there. I have no clue who the GM is though - and would not have expected any leniency. I suspect he/she was trying to give the OP a chance to administer justice internally first. But he/she did issue the warning within 10 minutes after the incident, regardless.
With that out of the way let me describe my infraction and motivations:
In Xsyon you can scavenge for stuff, and it is a skill that you can improve. It consists of moving from spot to spot(you can do it everywhere) to dig the ground. In terms of keypresses its: Hold W/A/S/D for 4-6 secs, press whatever key you have assigned the skill to on your hotbar, wait 6 secs for result. Repeat.
I was doing that for while, a lot of the time watching some movie or series - because lets face it; doing the above does not constitute much entertainment.
And at some some point the programmer in me kicked in and said: "All these keypresses can be automated". So I did. I was still sitting there, watching the tvseries or movie, but now I just had to monitor the status of my character and adjust the movement. Much less efficient, but also lot less mindnumbing.
When I was busted for doing this, I had the game running at work, screen moved out of the way so all that was visible was the lower part allowing me to monitor the energy and food status of my character. Chat not being visible - so I was not seeing either the OP or the GM trying to contact me.
So when I moved the screen back in to see if I were where I thought I was - I wasn't - and I figured I had been moved by a GM - which a quick check of my email confirmed.
Thats more or less how it went down.
To return to the claims made in the quote above: No, I was not macroing to feel "better". I was macroing to make my computer make the keypresses for me - keypresses that I would have made regardless. I would have been better of in terms of skills by doing them myself, but chose the other approach to increase my enjoyment of the game - and because the task of automating it represented a more engaging exercise (albeit an extremely simple one). The time spent on making and adjusting it, combined with the lack of efficiency, definately meant that my gains were less than they would have been, had I just kept doing it manually - but I had more fun. Based on the combined effeciency I would even argue that whether I violated the ToS becomes a rather philosophical discussion.
(ToS rule 5.3: Use of third party software that would give you or anyone else an advantage of any form.)
I have been upfront about my approach now, so will leave that decision up to the reader and can appreciate an opinion either way. Which is also why it did not give me cause to take up that point with the GMs.
There are probably people that fit into the description in the quote above. But mostly you will find that people that macro do it:
1) This is the main reason: Because you can. If an action increases your ability and that action can be automated easily and by its level of entertainment invites it, why would you not do it? (Apart from the ToS saying you are not allowed to, of course.)
2) To avoid carpal tunnel syndrome. if the interface or the gamedesign requires a lot of mousemoving and clicking to do menial and repetetive tasks, this becomes a real issue and a macro alleviates it. I crafted like a madman in Xsyon yesterday - and had I not had the experience being debated in this thread, I would probably have looked at automating a lot of that mousemoving and clicking. Because my hand and wrist was complaining. The same small movements over and over and over and over. You have to select every ingredient and tool for every single item you craft - even if you craft the same one 500 times in a row and have it all in your backpack.
Let me end of on where I stand in general on the issue:
Can't remember where I saw the quote, but I think it applies: "If your business idea cannot survive a macro, you don't really have a business idea".
I have no philosophical objection to macroing. As long as it does not enable you to perform actions you could not do yourself and does not exploit bugs, I have no objections with how you interact with the game. You pay for the game and your playtime. You decide how to utilise that time. I have a big objection to gameplay mechanics that encourages it though.
I think the OP is completely wrong on macroing destroying the games he mentioned. Quite the contrary. It kept them alive. It keeps players logged on that would otherwise not bother due to the gameplay aspects that required mindnumbing and repetetive tasks to progress the most efficient way. Which in many cases meant they were there to interact with if a more engaging gameplay aspect presented itself. It kept players competive, that either didn't have the time or the ability to suffer through mindnumbingly boring actions. When skills levels become a measure of who can endure unengaging work-like actions the most, it is a problem for the game. Not the players seeking to lessen that pain.
The moment a task is macroed, the answer should not be to punish those who are doing it, but to either facilitate it for all players, or come up with a game mechanic that rewards those who don't. Darkfall took a step in the right direction when they upped the reward for hitting npcs/mobs, fx (wasn't enough, but it was the right idea). A task that invites and facilitates macroing is a sign of unengaging gameplay mechanics that is perceived as work rather than entertainment. It detaches the player from the game, instead of pulling them in.
In the case at hand: Reward the player for scavenging in a way that he could not do blindfolded or train a very smart dog to do. Engage him and reward him for being engaged. And either remove or significantly lower the reward for doing it in a repetetive and unengaging way.
Don't install the MMO variant of DRMs that basically just increases the attractiveness of macros and makes playing more miserable for those who don't.
That being said, my macroing days in Xsyon are over. I see a lot of (severely unpolished and unfinished) potential in the game and would like to be along for the ride for now. I won't have issues with other people macroing and I won't have issues with other people reporting them.
But if it starts becoming a huge issue, I will have my doubts about the games future - not because of the macroers - but because of the warning sign about the game mechanics that it is.
First of all, welcome to the forums, T.
I'm glad that you've decided to stop macroing. I absolutely agree with you that bad developement choices forced you and many others to macro certain abilities. I, too, don't enjoy scavenging, fishing or doing any other monotonic task for hours, it's no fun at all.
My choice is simply to not to do those for too long. If you are getting bored after 10 minutes of scavenging manually, just stop
Yes, the game isn't perfect. Other than boring game mechanics, it has many other well known issues. Sadly, we are here for the simple reason that there are no other games that'd suit our current gaming tastes at the moment and we should try to make our best of what we've got.
I say we stick to it for as long as we can without macroing and hope for the best...
See ya in game
"Only in quiet waters do things mirror themselves undistorted.
Only in a quiet mind is adequate perception of the world."
Hans Margolius
Always glad to read cheaters leaving the game. Go for a chinese grind game!
And I am always glad to see people replying with the entire megapost, that they obviously did not read, embedded.
If you had read it, you might have understood that I am not leaving and that it is exactly the aspects of the game the constitutes your chinese grinding that I was mitigating with a simple, attended, key macro.
There are many other promising aspects of the game, that I enjoy without even contemplating a macro. Speaking for myself it is not the drive to maximise skills that makes me create a macro. It is when required actions are unengaging, boring and extremely repetitive that the concept of macroing presents itself. Its human nature to automate such things when possible.
It is no more cheating than crossing at a red light when there are no cars.
Macroing is not a problem - its a symptom. It should be encouraged. When you realise that, you might devote your energy to requesting an actual cure, instead of defending and enabling the sickness.
For the people that are always concerned that someone else might have more than them, botting was a devastating plague to UO.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
That now pretty much sums up everyone in the current 'I can haz shinies?!' mmo generation, sadly.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I just envisioned a kitten with massive, tacky shoulderpads riding a spectral tiger mount.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Perhaps "botting" was an issue that occurred after my time (up until the release of AOS), because during my experience it was fairly well known that skill macro'ing was accepted and encouraged en masse if you wanted to be a serious player. As for botting, or gold farming which I'll assume it was being used for, it certainly wasn't anything that I ever observed during my years of (obsessive) activity. As far as I'm concerned, even if botters are a reason that the game today is worse off than it was years before, the developers had already killed what made it so special several expansions ago.
TL;DR? UO wasn't ruined by botting or macroing, but by the developers. Your opinion may vary.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Dude......is that the same ravnos from EverQuest Classic Server....
Because honestly if he is, i need to warn the community. This guy literally almost ruined my entire return to classic EQ because he was ks'ing mobs like he was a demon. He literally hid behind a tree and stole the SHINY BRASS SHIELD from my buddy and i after we had camped trainer hill for hours.
Watch out for him in xsyon ksing your animals or junk. He will try to defend himself but its all bullshit. He and Itankrangers were in the same guild stealing shit. Report em.
The only games I've ever used the Ravnos tag in have been the Tribes series.
So, no, I'm not the same Ravnos. But thanks for attaching unfounded claims to me.
that is exactly what the real ravnos would say.
Says you played Everquest in your profile. You can't hide from us you kser. Trusark and i have found you, and we will let the community know the monster you truly are!
Haha...I never said I didn't play EQ. I played for about 2 weeks approx. 6yrs ago. But like I said, I have only ever used the name Ravnos in the Tribes series. But keep believing that I'm the only person who has used the name Ravnos for anything. Of all the people who have ever played table-top Vampire, I'm the only one who has ever used the name of one of the clans for anything.
I find it funny when people feel the need to macro when they can't max out in a game in 24hrs so they say the game is broken etc and they need to macro or its boring, well sounds like all games are boring, I remember asheron call 1 it took for every to max level until the macroers came and ruined it because people can't hack it, so they cheat.
I maxed out my skills in Xsyon without cheating take the time to talk to guild mates while doing the boring stuff thats what I do and that makes it less painful....
Anyways thats my 2 cents for cheaters.
trusting a Ravnos is like taking advice from a Malkavian. That being said , it's unlikely that Ravnos is a unique handle.
Handles are important for Ravnos, slippery things that they are.
Im sorry, but what the hell are you talking about? He was forced to macro? I dont care how bad the game is coded or designed, cheating is cheating. Everyone has a choice, this player and many others choose to cheat, just like people choose to commit crimes. Just because you cannot get what you want, when you want it, does not give you license to be a douche. Cheaters cheat because they think they are special, both in game and in real life. Fact is, they are simply douches in both.