New PC Required - UK Based

Thyrom · April 2011

Hi all,

Well, it finally happened. My laptop has died and gone to the place in the sky thanks to Microsoft and their update this week on 12/04/11. On initially loading it doesnt even get as far as letting me choose to login to safe mode and seems stuck in a cycle of booting and crashing. I have tried everything, it seems to boot for a few seconds and then makes a small noise like it is restarting and cycles in this pattern forever and ever and ever and ever and ever. Before the patch it was running fine, I have managed to get a Vista restore disk and this doesnt help as it doesnt get as far as the external drive on booting up. It looks like my machine is well and truly broken.

So, what to do? I was due an upgrade anyway so this seems like the logical thing to do. I don't want to spend money on fixing what was a dated machine.

This is my problem, too many choices. I have a budget of about £600 - £700 but that needs to include a monitor if I am to get a PC. Preferably I would be going down the laptop route but this is not essential. From looking quickly, I have found the following - does anyone have any alternative suggestions? I am happy to go mail order so feel free to post links.

Laptop, in my price range:

http://instore.computerorbit.co.uk/Itemdesc.asp?ic=VAIOEE3Z0EBQ

Or perhaps a "proper" computer with enough cash left to buy a screen:

http://www.dinopc.com/shop/pc/Gallant-AMD-955-5770-94p766.htm

Gameswise, I tend to play WoW, EQ2 but want to dabble in more modern games so the machine would have to be half decent but not over the top.

Thanks all,

Thy

Quizzical · April 2011

Don't get the laptop you linked. If you want a cheap, non-gaming laptop, then get something based on AMD's Zacate E-350 APU. That will be much cheaper and have much lower power consumption, while still being fast enough to be a functional computer for most purposes except for gaming. Performance is comparable to a decently nice but not really high end gaming desktop from about five years ago.

If you want a budget gaming laptop, your only serious option is to wait a few weeks for Llano to launch, and then get something based on a high bin (likely the top bin) of that. Having integrated graphics that are good enough for gaming built into the same chip as the processor is going to be a huge deal in some market segments.

If you don't absolutely need a laptop for whatever reason, then you should probably just get a desktop instead. If you're on a tight budget, then you should probably get parts and assemble it yourself. I could help you pick parts if you're willing to go that route. If you don't know how to assemble parts, then the motherboard and case will come with very detailed instructions.

Actually, if you want a gaming desktop on your budget and need to fit peripherals in, you might still want to consider waiting for Llano to launch in a few weeks. For a desktop, I'm not saying that you definitely should wait; if it means going without a computer at all for a month, then I'd say don't wait.

Still, a Llano desktop would be a lot nicer than a laptop based on the same chip. Getting a 95 W desktop version rather than a 45 W laptop bin of the same chip means higher clock speeds, and hence higher performance. It would also allow you to add a new video card in a couple of years or so and have nice performance for much longer than the laptop. Moving to a desktop would mean that, even if you need new peripherals this time, you won't necessarily also need them next time. Furthermore, desktops are more reliable, easier to upgrade, ergonomically better, and easier to repair of they break, among other things.

The problem with buying a prebuilt is that they don't tell you what a lot of the parts are. The specs on the prebuilt computer that you linked are actually more detailed than the specs on a lot of others. But it's still a cheap junk power supply and doesn't tell you what hard drive it is, among other things.

Thyrom · April 2011

Originally posted by Quizzical
Don't get the laptop you linked. If you want a cheap, non-gaming laptop, then get something based on AMD's Zacate E-350 APU. That will be much cheaper and have much lower power consumption, while still being fast enough to be a functional computer for most purposes except for gaming. Performance is comparable to a decently nice but not really high end gaming desktop from about five years ago.

If you want a budget gaming laptop, your only serious option is to wait a few weeks for Llano to launch, and then get something based on a high bin (likely the top bin) of that. Having integrated graphics that are good enough for gaming built into the same chip as the processor is going to be a huge deal in some market segments.

If you don't absolutely need a laptop for whatever reason, then you should probably just get a desktop instead. If you're on a tight budget, then you should probably get parts and assemble it yourself. I could help you pick parts if you're willing to go that route. If you don't know how to assemble parts, then the motherboard and case will come with very detailed instructions.

Actually, if you want a gaming desktop on your budget and need to fit peripherals in, you might still want to consider waiting for Llano to launch in a few weeks. For a desktop, I'm not saying that you definitely should wait; if it means going without a computer at all for a month, then I'd say don't wait.

Still, a Llano desktop would be a lot nicer than a laptop based on the same chip. Getting a 95 W desktop version rather than a 45 W laptop bin of the same chip means higher clock speeds, and hence higher performance. It would also allow you to add a new video card in a couple of years or so and have nice performance for much longer than the laptop. Moving to a desktop would mean that, even if you need new peripherals this time, you won't necessarily also need them next time. Furthermore, desktops are more reliable, easier to upgrade, ergonomically better, and easier to repair of they break, among other things.

The problem with buying a prebuilt is that they don't tell you what a lot of the parts are. The specs on the prebuilt computer that you linked are actually more detailed than the specs on a lot of others. But it's still a cheap junk power supply and doesn't tell you what hard drive it is, among other things.

Thank you for the reply, it is much appreciated as I am very nervous about making the wrong purchase.....

Unfortunately if I don't get a computer now then I am offline permanently until I get one. Whilst that isn't a bad thing, it is very frustrating and also quite inconvenient as I didn't realise how much you rely on it these days for everyday things.

I had a feeling that the lack of detail on some of the components would raise the odd eyebrow, that is why I linked the PC After chatting to the wife, she is coming round to the idea of me getting a desktop so it looks like at least I can focus on a proper machine - rather than a laptop which I have used in the past.

Being honest though, I am not at all confident in building one so wouldn't dream of trying. I am capable of upgrading but my knowledge of computers is from waaaaay back when I was in college so a lot has changed since then - back then you didn't care about the type of RAM or hard drive, it was just nice to have some....lol. That is the main reason I was looking at pre-built machines. I accept that not all of the parts will be AAA rating and am willing to live with that. What I don't want to do is make the wrong purchase all together as it is a lot of money for me in the current climate

Quizzical · April 2011

Suppose that you buy a prebuilt desktop. How will you set it up? Will you hire someone to come to your house and plug the various cables in? Or will you plug them in yourself? If the latter, then you could assemble a computer from parts if so inclined.

Plugging a USB cable into the back of the case isn't any harder to do than plugging a SATA cable into the motherboard and hard drive in the interior of the case. The different slots, ports, and sockets are all different shapes, so in most cases, you can't put something in the wrong spot. It simply won't physically fit. The only exceptions are things that are on the outside of the case, where a USB cable can be jammed into either a FireWire or eSATA port (I forget which), and there are several identically shaped sound ports. Well, I guess there are also exceptions for the connections from the motherboard to some front panel stuff like the power light.

If the problem is that you're not sure what parts to get, then I can help with that.

NightAngell · April 2011

Originally posted by Thyrom
Hi all,

Well, it finally happened. My laptop has died and gone to the place in the sky thanks to Microsoft and their update this week on 12/04/11. On initially loading it doesnt even get as far as letting me choose to login to safe mode and seems stuck in a cycle of booting and crashing. I have tried everything, it seems to boot for a few seconds and then makes a small noise like it is restarting and cycles in this pattern forever and ever and ever and ever and ever. Before the patch it was running fine, I have managed to get a Vista restore disk and this doesnt help as it doesnt get as far as the external drive on booting up. It looks like my machine is well and truly broken.

So, what to do? I was due an upgrade anyway so this seems like the logical thing to do. I don't want to spend money on fixing what was a dated machine.

This is my problem, too many choices. I have a budget of about £600 - £700 but that needs to include a monitor if I am to get a PC. Preferably I would be going down the laptop route but this is not essential. From looking quickly, I have found the following - does anyone have any alternative suggestions? I am happy to go mail order so feel free to post links.

Laptop, in my price range:

http://instore.computerorbit.co.uk/Itemdesc.asp?ic=VAIOEE3Z0EBQ

Or perhaps a "proper" computer with enough cash left to buy a screen:

http://www.dinopc.com/shop/pc/Gallant-AMD-955-5770-94p766.htm

Gameswise, I tend to play WoW, EQ2 but want to dabble in more modern games so the machine would have to be half decent but not over the top.

Thanks all,

Thy

Here is where you need to be and read the oveerclockers forums..

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/

Thyrom · April 2011

You are ganging up on me

To be honest with you, putting the machine physically together shouldn't be a problem as I realise that certain parts only fit in certain holes. My main worry is, and please don't laugh, is that I spend my money and it just doesn't work. I have read a few problems people have had building PC's and it put me off.

So really, what to buy would be the problem. Once it arrived I would probably be okay....I think!

You must hate people like me, sorry.

Quizzical · April 2011

The reason to get high quality parts is precisely so that the computer will work. What makes you so certain that a prebuilt computer will work? Assembling a computer and then shipping it is a much more hazardous way to ship it than neatly packaging the individual parts. And even if the prebuilt computer does work out of the box, what makes you think it will still work a year or two later? Especially with a cheap junk power supply.

If you're dead set on going prebuilt, then what you need to do is to find a site that basically lets you pick whatever parts you want, and then assembles it for you. AVA Direct does that in the US, and NCIX does in Canada, but that doesn't help you in Britain. You might be able to find a local white box manufacturer to do that, too. "Here's all of the parts and your only option is to buy it or not" targets people who are clueless about computers, so they'll cut lots of corners. Higher end boutique vendors will also get you something nice, but they're out of your budget.

Thyrom · April 2011

Nicely put I can't really disagree with any of that.

I have just been looking on ebuyer (UK site of course) from following your link from another post. Bearing in mind that I would need everything, could I get something remotely decent with a limited budget by building it myself? It is a lot cheaper than I first thought, I must confess.

Ridelynn · April 2011

For your current machine:

It sounds like some data got corrupt on the hard drive. It could just be corrupt data, or it could be a failing hard drive (or other hardware). Hard to say, but reformatting and reinstalling is free, if your going to write off the hardware anyway, and may buy you that month or two until better hardware comes around that is worth buying in the first place.

If you have the Vista Installation DVD (or a rescue DVD), if you boot off from that and do a full hard drive format, you'll likely be able to rescue the machine. It will erase all of your data, however. Do not try to repair or reinstall, you need to reformat the drive first (do not use a quick format, you want the long painfully slow format, so that it looks for and flags any bad sectors, in case it is your hard drive failing), and then once it's reformatted then reinstall.

Quizzical · April 2011

Processor: £96

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=CP-244-AM&groupid=701&catid=6&subcat=1943

Motherboard: £69

http://www.ebuyer.com/product/206152

Video card: £108

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=GX-259-SP&groupid=701&catid=56&subcat=1711

That's about 60% faster than the card in the prebuilt computer that you're looking at. The same card is really cheap on New Egg, too. It's also strange to introduce a new SKU of a card several months after it is mostly discontinued. My guess is that the only reason why AMD still builds their Cypress GPUs at all is that they need them for FirePro and FireStream cards, and they cut a deal with Sapphire to take all the chips chips that don't meet those high bins off their hands cheaply for the salvage part Radeon cards.

Power supply: £51

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=CA-007-XF&groupid=701&catid=123&subcat=1497

That's the same platform as the Seasonic S12II line, so it's pretty good.

Hard drive: £43

http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/prods/components/harddrives-internal/sata500gbto1tb/WD5002AALX.html

That will be quite a bit faster than the hard drive in the prebuilt you were looking at.

Optical drive: £15

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=CD-096-LO&groupid=701&catid=10&subcat=

Memory: £35

http://www.ebuyer.com/product/166995

4 GB rather than 8 GB, but that might never make a difference for you.

Case: £48

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=CA-101-AN&groupid=701&catid=7&subcat=160

Decently nice case, plenty of room, comes with two fans: one 120 mm and one 140 mm. It has room for three more fans if you need more airflow later.

Operating system: £70

http://www.ebuyer.com/product/259863

Comes with Service Pack 1, which could save you a couple of hours of downloading and installing updates.

That comes to £535 without peripherals, or only £10 more than the prebuilt you were looking at. For that, you get a 60% faster video card, a dramatically better power supply, a better case, and a substantially faster hard drive.

Now, you still need some peripherals. If you want a cheap keyboard, this will work:

http://www.ebuyer.com/product/226805

If you need cheap speakers, try this:

http://www.ebuyer.com/product/129430

For a mouse, get a wired laser mouse and it should work. The cheap mouse I like doesn't seem to be available in Britain. For a surge protector or monitor, your guess is as good as mine. Do try to get a DVI monitor. (Or DisplayPort would be good, too, but those tend to be more expensive.)

Quizzical · April 2011

Just to give you an idea of why desktop performance is so much better:

The highest performance video cards you can get in a laptop are the GeForce GTX 485M and the Radeon HD 6970M, which are roughly equal in performance. They're expensive, too. Sager charges $245 to upgrade from a GeForce GTX 460M to a Radeon HD 6970M. They charge $495 to upgrade from the 460M to a GeForce GTX 485M. That's the price to upgrade, not the whole price of the card. Because of the tremendous cooling requirements of video cards that put out 100+ W in a laptop form factor, for the entire laptop, you're looking at significantly over $1500, even if you try to go cheap on everything else. To put that into perspective for you, $1500 is considerably more than £1000.

So how do those super high end laptop cards compare to the £108 desktop video card I linked for you? The £108 desktop card is faster. A lot faster. Maybe 30% or 40% faster or so. Keeping it cool in a desktop form factor is easy, too, and the £48 case I linked above will be plenty good enough.

So you're not just getting a £600 - £700 gaming desktop, including peripherals. You're getting one that would outperform a £1500 gaming laptop easily, and likely a £2000 gaming laptop, too.

Thyrom · April 2011

Thanks for the replies everyone, this is why I spend so much time on mmorpg.com.

Ridelynn - I am busy making myself a recovery disk, hopefully that will get the old laptop going again but I *think* its a long shot. Nothing to lose though and if it works my lass can have it

Quizzical - I have decided to bite the bullet and am ordering all the links that you have suggested. I am a little nervous, but hey, how hard can it be? lol. Afterall, you talk sense and on the plus side if it needs upgrading/fixing in the longterm there will also be benefits from having put it all together myself. I also like the idea of that build.

I will keep you posted on the build and let you know how it goes when the bits start arriving

Thanks again, very much appreciated and kind of you both for helping.

Thy

Quizzical · April 2011

Note that depending on what peripherals you have, you may or may not need the new keyboard and speakers. You may also need a new surge protector and mouse, which I didn't link. And you've said that you do need a new monitor, which I also didn't link.

Thyrom · April 2011

I spotted that, thank you

I have a surge protector but have bought the rest, for the price of them all it is nice to have everything nice and shiny. I also went for a DVI monitor so am looking forward to that when it arrives.

Thyrom · April 2011

Well, bits and pieces have started to arrive

I do have one, possibly silly, question but will ask anyway. I have been doing a little reading up before everything arrives and was wondering whether I need a "heat sink" for the processor that you have linked me. I have looked and am not sure whether it comes with one so thought I better see what you think. To save you clicking back, this is the one I have bought:

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=CP-244-AM&groupid=701&catid=6&subcat=1943

Thanks again, much appreciated.

Quizzical · April 2011

You do need a heatsink for the processor, but it comes with a decent heatsink, so you just use that instead of buying another one separately. Most Intel processors, and also lower end AMD processors, come with rather awful stock heatsinks to save a few dollars on the cost of production. For a higher end Intel processor, I think it makes sense to get an after-market heatsink to ensure quiet operation and no problems with Turbo Boost.

Thyrom · April 2011

Originally posted by Quizzical
You do need a heatsink for the processor, but it comes with a decent heatsink, so you just use that instead of buying another one separately. Most Intel processors, and also lower end AMD processors, come with rather awful stock heatsinks to save a few dollars on the cost of production. For a higher end Intel processor, I think it makes sense to get an after-market heatsink to ensure quiet operation and no problems with Turbo Boost.

Thanks, that's great. I must admit I am quite looking forward to picking all the parcels up from my parents when they all arrive

Phry · April 2011

as your in the UK... might be a good idea to check out the prices at Novatech.. their based in portsmouth.. and they also do mail order.. i have been using them for years and their my first point of call for parts.. if nothing else you can check your not getting ripped by another retailer..

Quizzical · April 2011

Originally posted by Phry
as your in the UK... might be a good idea to check out the prices at Novatech.. their based in portsmouth.. and they also do mail order.. i have been using them for years and their my first point of call for parts.. if nothing else you can check your not getting ripped by another retailer..

Read my parts list above a little more carefully. I did check Novatech. Their competition was cheaper on all but one part.

Thyrom · April 2011

Hi all,

Just to update you all really, 4 hours later and the new machine booted on its first attempt. I think its all okay but have a few concerns - how do I know everything is setup correctly? I have the side off for now and all the fans are working all the time, I am guessing that is a goos sign and the lights all do what they should. I do however have a few bits left over.....

- two connectors that came with the motherboard, one is blue and labelled USB, NC, GNC, P2+, P2- AND =5V. The other is white and bigger labelled with quite a few things; HDD LED-, HDD LED+, PWR GROUND, RESET GROUND, PLED+, PLED-, SPEAKER GROUND GROUND +5V.

- I didnt connect the HDD cable to anything from the motherboard, is that right? It is the one where the cable has the connectors that are blue, grey and black.

- I couldnt see where to connect the USB connector that comes from the inside the front of the tower. There are a few USB connections on the motherboard but I was worried about using the wrong one as the manual said if I did it would break the motherboard

- There are a couple of wires as well, difficult to describe. One is black and the heads have white parts and the connections looks like an "L" shape. The other looks like it should go from the PSU to somewhere, again tricky to describe - it is one large plug on one side and splits into two connections (four square holes on each) with a very solid wire between, almost like it will get hot.

I think that's it, all looks well. I am shattered though so am off to bed and will look at it again tomorrow.....

Thanks in advance

P.S. I am writing this on the new machine, so hopefully that's a good sign!

duelkore · April 2011

Those white and blue box type connectors are just something to keep. You use them if all your usb pins are seperate... u would know and they usually arent. The white one is for making it easier to wire to connect all the wires to the motherboard. You dont need it as apparantly you didnt.

The L shaped connectors are 90 degree sata connections. Good for tight spots like sata ports under a videocard.

There should be a few places to plug usb connections to the mobo. This is normal and is like that for ease of use. If the usb cable can reach it, it is safe t oplug it in there. The usb connections on the motherboard are usually blue. The usb cable coming from your case probably ends in a blue connection as well. Match blue wire to blue connection on mobo.

duelkore · April 2011

That wierd looking cable that you describe sounds like a molex splitter. It would go to your power supply but it is not needed unless you run out of power connections for your PSU. I tend to use those for powering case fans. It helps my cable job look clean.

The hard drive not connected to anything leaves me stumped I am afraid. Obviously you booted off your hdd, so I wouldnt worry about it? Ofcourse I really have no clue what you are talking about.

Quizzical · April 2011

There should be two cables plugged into your hard drive. One is a SATA power cable, and comes directly from the power supply. The other is the SATA data cable, and connects to the motherboard. This was likely a free cable in the motherboard box, so you have to plug it in to both ends. The hard drive won't work without it, so you've probably already done this.

It looks like your motherboard came with three SATA cables. Presumably you used two of them: one for the hard drive and one for the optical drive. There should be a leftover SATA cable that you're not using, and that might be what you're talking about.

"HDD LED-, HDD LED+, PWR GROUND, RESET GROUND, PLED+, PLED-, SPEAKER GROUND GROUND +5V"

That sounds like the front panel connector. Your case likely has some lights and such that turn on when the computer is on, the hard drive is active, or whatever. That connector goes from a spot on the motherboard that looks like it's near the corner, toward the bottom front of your case, and then connects to the front panel of the case itself. It isn't necessary for the computer to function, but it does let the front of the case have a light turn off and on to let you know the computer is in use.

I'm not sure what the other spare cable you describe is. You should have a spare PATA cable, which is something like 2 inches wide. That would be needed if you had a really old hard drive or optical drive or whatever, but you don't, as you just bought them new.

There will be a number of power supply connectors that you don't use. When they make the power supply, they don't know how many PCI-E, SATA, and Molex connectors you need, among other things, so they try to include plenty, so that you'll have however many you need. They tend to add more than enough.

For example, you've got 9 SATA power connectors, but only need two. XFX didn't know how many you'd need, so they didn't want to give you four, have someone discover that he needed five, and return the power supply claiming it was defective. There are also six Molex 4-pin connectors, and you don't need all of those.

You're presumably using the 20+4 pin motherboard connector. You're also using both the 6-pin PCI-E connector and the 6+2-pin PCI-E power connector. There are two different types of PCI-E power connectors: 6-pin and 8-pin. 8-pin is only used for video cards that can draw over 225 W, but they need to have it available. Rather than give you two 6-pin connectors and an 8-pin connector, they give you a 6-pin connector and a 6+2-pin connector that can function as either a 6-pin or an 8-pin. You presumably plugged 6 of the pins into the video card, and left the other two dangling off to the side.

The power supply comes with two processor power connectors. One is an 8-pin connector, and the other a 4+4-pin, which can function as either a 4-pin or an 8-pin power supply connector. You presumably used one of them, and have the other left over. They give you two processor power connectors in case you have two processors that you want to power. This is mainly used for servers and workstations, though you can get desktop motherboards that take two processors. This might be the power connector that you're not sure what to do with.

Finally, there are two "3.5" Drive power adapter"s. I'm not sure what that is off hand. This also might be the power connector that you're not sure what to do with. It looks like it lets you plug one end into a Molex connector and the other into perhaps a floppy drive, as that won't commonly be used.

-----

Some general maintenance things you should do with a new computer, whether you assembled it yourself or bought it from an OEM:

1) Install anti-virus software.

2) Update Windows. The OS DVD said it was Service Pack 1, so updating Windows might not take that long, rather than having to spend hours letting it download and install several dozen patches. But you should do it, and then make sure Windows Update is turned on.

3) Install video card drivers. Whatever drivers came in the box with the video card are probably obsolete. Download the latest drivers from AMD's web site.

Make sure all of the fans spin, so that you've got the proper airflow. This includes two case fans, a processor fan, a video card fan, and a power supply fan. This is mainly to make sure everything is plugged in and works. It sounds like you may have already done this. A simple visual inspection of, yep, the fan spins when it's on, is sufficient here.

You should also test out your hardware to make sure it works. You can run FurMark and see how hot your video card gets. you can run SpeedFan to measure processor temperatures, and then run Prime95 to see how hot it gets. This can also verify that you've installed the processor heatsink correctly, if Prime95 only pushes the processor temperature up to 60 C or so.

CRAZYCAN00K · April 2011

Originally posted by Thyrom

The other is white and bigger labelled with quite a few things; HDD LED-, HDD LED+, PWR GROUND, RESET GROUND, PLED+, PLED-, SPEAKER GROUND GROUND +5V.

This cable connector is used to help organize your front control panel cables of your case , alot of them will plug into it and helps get them into the correct connector on the motherboard.

Hooking up your motherboard without it is fine , it is just some help to make sure things are in the right place.

Thyrom · April 2011

Thanks again everyone, it looks like I am up and running......although I have to say it was rather stressful. Taking it one piece at a time helped though.

I will get the computer updated now and put my firewall, etc on.

One last thing (I promise). I can't seem to get a wireless connection for my internet, is that right? I am connecting fine with a cable but when the ethernet cable isn't plugged in it won't find the network. It's fine if thats okay as I can buy something off ebay to sort it I think.

Thanks and forever grateful!

Quizzical · April 2011

Do you have a wireless router and a wireless adapter? If you do, you might still need to install drivers for them.

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