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It's a world, not a game - The Mahdran example
Eronakis
Member UncommonPosts: 2,249
For many of us we want to be immersed into a world not a game. Let me open up the window for you. A world is something that a character feels apart of, NPC's that don't feel like props, no instances, zones do not have mountain barriers surrounding them, and a reduced amount of fast travel. We want to explore and we want to explore with alts that will find new locations and areas in which our mains did not find before. A new adventure.
A world can ideally be any size that would fit within a specified vision. I, however, would enjoy a world that has a massive scale. A pangea world that is hosted on a single shard world. Not like eve where it's zone based with a loading screen, but rather a seamless world.
I comprehend the fact that the budget for such a design would be monumental. I also comprehend that hosting a single shard seamless world would aquire to be very challenging or near impossible. However, I do have a server design in place that could negate that. Here is what it is.
The world is broken into 9 cardinal directions, Northwest, North, Northeast, East, Central, West, Southwest, South and Southeast. Each block is a sub server that is connected to a master server. Instead of each world would be a server, each region would be a server. This would hopefully diminish server tension and massive lag issues. However, the players will still be apart of one world. I hope that makes sense. If the technology becomes available for such a design, then scratch what I previously said in this paragraph.
I would like to show you a world that captures all of the elements I have said in this post and other elements not mentioned. Hopefully if given the chance and if the technology will be available to do such a colossal endeavor I will bring this to you all. Here is my world Mahdran. Graphics do not reflect in game graphics. I believe I have posted this map once before, however, this is the 100% finished verison. Please do not critique bad transition biomes or rivers. The world is made magically and is not natural to Earth's mechanics.
Enter Mahdran: http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/5289344/img/Maps/Mahdran-Version-2-Final---E1.jpg
I hope this world is a good example of what the players who want a world are looking for.
Comments
so how do you get around 5000 people who all decide to go to the same store or sit in the same area.
I've been thinking a lot about this and given how most games tend to shudder when you get a large amount of people in one area, how does one handle a single world where anyone can go everywhere?
I can think of many artificial ways of doing it but I think they defeat the intention of "one single world".
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
A week or so ago I actually stumbled on the original post at another forum: http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?14352-Mahdran
It's quite a long read, but for those whom are willing it tells you about the lore of Mahdran and whatnot. A great read. But I also have the concern that the second poster has. Would love to play a mmo in this world!
scribble scribble scribble
Ugh, Papyrus. I'm not playing in your world.
Always read the small print.
Sorry, but it's a more simple way of discussing what ur talking about.
Open world design (no zone walls, no instancing, no zones) -VS- Themepark construction, with zones, instancing and funnel points of interest.
Many people simply would not play EQ2 because SOE didn't spend the extra money on their servers technology to allow for an open world. Vanguard is an open world, Mortal online is an open world...
WoW, Conan, LOTR, DDO, etc are not. They are themepark derivatives..
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
Tyrxz, I am the same guy, FarsightX3 over there. I also posted this map on the profantasy forums as well. And thank you, I am glad you enjoyed the read. I am a very long winded person. And what was your concern? I may be able to answer it the best I can
Okay, you can go back to wow if you want. Lol. All kidding aside, I am considering of changing the text to aquill 2. I wasn't aware that Papyrus was so popular.
That is a good question. I would assume, that since each cardinal direction block would be enough to sustian that capacity. If not perhaps each dungeon and city would be zoned off with a loading screen that would be redirected to a different stand alone server.
Thanks for breaking it down to lamens terms. I such at summerization (if you read my lore post on the other forums you could tell I am not a simple person lol). Mahdran may be an open world, however it still has some themepark elements to it. And I didn't know that many players did not subscribe to EQ2 because it wasn't an open world. Hopefully Eq next will be.
It's usually typography geeks like me that hate it.
But yeah, it's an overused font. Aquila is certainly better (if that's what you mean; I've never heard of aquill).
Always read the small print.
Yeah yeah yeah .. i know what a world is. If that is your definition .. sorry that does not sound very fun. No instances, and no fast travel? Count me out.
Good Point. This is mostly a discussion about Open World vs. Theme Park... However I believe it is also more. I would call it a "complex open world" design. VG, Wurm Online and Ryzom fit into this area for the most part. It's not just Sandbox.
Truth is MMO Developers and Publishers for the most part do not want to create or support complex open worlds. Costs too much, too much work, their heart is not in it, etc.....Then take into account that 90% of current customers of MMOs would not be interested in playing a complex open world, and wham! Dead is the project.
As for comparing EQ2 and Vanguard ... STOP ... Vanguard is not dying because it's world is not wanted by Players... imho Vanguard is dying due to SOE's abandonment of Vanguard as far as true support of MMOs go, sure the servers are running due to VG being on Station Pass, but that's all, mmorpg's need more attention than that. It was very apparent to me this past few months when I played VG that SOE spends almost no time or money of VG and THAT is why it is dying. I now believe 100% that SOE bought out Sigil and acquired VG just to kill it through attrition, because it was competition for EQ2. I have no "proof", but it is quite obvious.
The MMO genre is not dying, it's thriving, however the MMORPG sub-genre is most definitely on it's downhill run, and hopes for "complex open worlds" like VG or Ryzom are now pipe dreams. The majority of the current and young Developers, Publishers, and especially the Players do not appreciate the experience a "complex open world" mmorpg design would provide. Putting MMOs on cell phones and Ipods/Ipads can be done but they won't be MMORPGs becuase in order to fit them to that platform too much of the features that make a mmorpg a mmorpg is lost. MMOs will move to those platforms whether it's a good idea or not, for it will be profitable in the long run.
That's capitalism for you. Dump old customers for the new and young. Change the product a thousand ways, but keep the name. SSDD.
I am the Player that wonders... "What the %#*& just happened?!"
...............
"I Believe... There should be NO financial connection or portals between the Real World and the Virtual in MMOs. "
__Ever Present Cockroach of the MMO Verses__
...scurrying to and fro... .munching on bits of garbage... always under foot...
I would say that's half true. I know a good portion of old school players who have a strong desire for a world of this caliber. The old school mmo market is untapped. The publishers and developers are still trying to cater to the new age mmo gamer. What about the old school gamer? There is still a fairly good portion of players that only play current titles to just play. I really believe if implemented correctly, there would be a mass exodus of players leaving this "wow saturated" market for a title I have described.
However, I will agree with you that costs to develop a complex world will be monumenetal. Perhaps this design is for furture mmos and not anytime soon. A good designer will design a game for the future that would capture it's specified market and vision, and knowing what components are necessary for the project. A complex seamless world that is hosted on a single shard server hasn't been done yet. It's rather new. Eve still uses zoning, while this design may not have it.
Well the design isn't for everyone, to be honest, I don't see a good portion of the new age gamers wanting to play in a world like this, they want instant gratfication. This design is about longevity and the journey. Something most of the old school and some of the new school gamers enjoy. Again, this genre is founded on niche gaming, not a monopolized industry based on WOW's standards.
Present data that supports that, and you'll find people willing to finance such projects. Personally, I'd be very interested in the charts or data you based that assessment on.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
To my understanding, this sounds impossible. One thing you must ask yourself, why hasn't noone else done this already? Surely there's a good reason for that? These people are professionals! No doubt they would do it if it was possible.
Eve goes in the very limits of what games can do in terms of player numbers. CCP has some of the best server hardware around and the game has been stripped to a bare minimum in order to optimize netcode and minimize traffic/processing. Yet it still has zones - still is limited to few hundred players within a zone.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I never said there was any sample data. I just said I know a good portion. Essentially, I'll go round some mmos that I think houses the market that would be interested in an idea. So I'll ask around take a poll in general chat on different servers. It's just based on word of mouth. When I mentioned my idea to my old professor, he thought the old school gamer is an untapped market. He was an indy developer for about 10 years. I don't know the capacity of that market. But I do know it's there. I think the capacity of that market will make or break this design to an invenstor and a developer.
ok, feasibility aside, the heart the the question is "how to you deal with many playes who all go to the same point in the world".
In a game like EVE it's ok to have hundreds of ships in the same area because they are ships. They can be slightly lower, higher to the left, etc and it doesn''t matter.
Now take a favorite city and get several thousand players who just by chance want to go to the blacksmith...
Now, for the record I don't like the layering that some of these games use nor do I like the separating the player base by levels.
But I can understand the reasoning behind it. It separates the playerbase and keeps things more manageable.
Now get a game world where anyone can go anywhere and it's one huge world and you get the possibility of too many players in one area.
If there is collision then you are going to get people jams in doorways or causeways. If there isn't collision you are going to get these many armed monsters that are just a collage of colors and shapes.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
In other words, a lot of opinions and no evidence. How *many* people have you talked to? 10? 100? 1000? For a population of MILLIONS (2009 research shows 45M people playing MMO in the US), you need at least a random survey of a few thousands to make any informed conclusions.
Talking to a few people does not count.
Nah, this been over the past 3-4 years Ive talked to people. I don't know an exact number but its not been a few at all. Maybe I should make a seervay to truely find out the correct numbers.
Way to go to convince people.
Yes, you should make a survey. Please make sure you follow good survey methodologies, such as random sampling and stuff like that.
BTW, look up Nick Yee, he did a lot of MMORPG survey work. For example, his research shows that the average (or was that median) age of WOW players is ~28, a fact conveniently forgotten by many on this forum when it does not suit their arguments.
The same one that games on ancient 1999 tech did without any problems? By making gameplay design good enough so that you never get 5000 people all going to the same spot all at once, give people enough worthy options to spread them out. Or, do that, AND have code that can support big 500 man battles like Dark Age of Camelot managed to do when many people were still on dial up.
I wonder if I could contact him to be interested in doing this poll. I would really like to know a number here. I am not looking for wows numbers. If i could get the old Eq numbers that would be great. And thanks for the info. I don't like half assed work anyways (:
There is data that supports it. Just have to know where to look. The Investors decided a long time ago that didn't fit "their idea" of how the genre should progress.
It's not about data. Old school players *will not* be catered to by the MMO Publishers and Devs; they have made that quite clear. It's about money, it's about that 13-23 age group that all business people are taught have money, it's about old school gamers that used to be passionate about mmorpg's, but now have a spouse, kids, work 60 hours, have two mortgages, and little time for gaming. They will accept themepark mmos instead of pushing for open world mmorpg's because they know they no longer have time to really enjoy them.
New, streamlined, themepark on economy budget, MMOs on Facebook, on phones, and maybe on PC, are the future. I wish it wasn't so.
Like I said above: It's about Money.
I am the Player that wonders... "What the %#*& just happened?!"
...............
"I Believe... There should be NO financial connection or portals between the Real World and the Virtual in MMOs. "
__Ever Present Cockroach of the MMO Verses__
...scurrying to and fro... .munching on bits of garbage... always under foot...
So, any feedback on the world map it self?
Comic Sans!
All the pros use Comic Sans!
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
It's quite large!
Mind if I ask what software you used to create it?
I'm working on the world map for a project of my own (daunting task to be sure... but quite fun at the same time), and I'm doing most of it in Photoshop/GIMP. I'm trying to go for a sorta rustic, hand-drawn look, so it's quite a lot of work.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
which was what?
I'm [edit] not doubting that 500 man battles are possible I know they are. I've been in them.
Is it just that they spread everyone out and made available all sorts of resources so that 100 people didn't show up at the blacksmith?
I don't even doubt that it can be done now provided that the avatars weren't too complex.
But if players are looking for a one shard open world without instances like EVE then the possibility of hundreds of people among thousands upon thousands showing up in a small space is there.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo