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(From 2004 to present) the reasons used to defend post WoW MMO by players. [Mod Edit]
MMOExposed
Member RarePosts: 7,400
Seems like when a new mmorpg comes out, it always get the same excuses to defend its flaws. maybe you have seen comments like this on the forum:
"WoW had several years to polish their game. (Insert game) just came out."
Well for this above statement, why is it that this statement doesnt apply to MMORPG's that are older than WoW, when they get compared to the quality of WoW. Hey I am sure they also had several years to also improve their game before WoW came out, but that didnt stop WoW's success. Hey EQ2 came out a month before WoW, but how did that turn out?
Another excuse I have seen thrown around, is:
"(insert game) has better graphics than WoW, so that makes it higher quality and better."
I seen statements like this from the AoC and Aion community in zealot zergs during the hype phase. We have seen this time and time again. Graphics doesnt make the game. The Gameplay does that. Once these high graphic games come out, the same players, revert back to the first excuse.
interesting, that a game like Rift, which came out only 2 months ago, has more quality than most of those post WoW MMO whom the community defended with these reasons. What did Trion do differently?
[Mod Edit]
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Comments
If you think those people are bad, you should check out the ones that claim WoW isn't dying.
I had the exact same thoughts as regards to WoW having 6 years to get so polished so give the new games a chance argument. If all it took was time, then all the oldschool games should be as popular or more popular than WoW. I'm not saying that WoW is better than any oldschool game...I just find the logic faulty as well.
It's always nice to read a review or opinion about a game that doesn't try to elevate it by trashing another game. If the game can't stand on it's own merits, it's already doomed.
Trion did nothing special apart from releasing a "working" product, there's no innovation whatsoever.
And comparing games released before WoW just ain't fair, back in the days of EQ, AC, DAoC and AO the market just wasn't big enough.
Blizzard had a great premise for their steps into MMO's, they had 3 well known and already popular IP's. All good things when you want to make an MMO, not to mention the budget.
Why do you think SWToR is so hyped? Bioware is behind the game with a massive budget and are known as the best RPG developer in the west, AND ofc it's Star Wars.
My guess for the failure of games like AoC and WAR would be that the higher ups were simply too incompetent and chose to throw the game out too soon.
The reason WoW has stayed on top for so long is because: A. They had a tremendous start - B. Their competitors had no idea of how to challenge Blizzard or simply tried not to - and C. Blizzard manage to create good enough content to keep people playing.
With Guild Wars 2, SWToR and possibly TERA and TSW coming out the WoW playerbase will most likely split here and there. People will get tierd of WoW eventually, I know I did, and when that happends people will find something new.
Op your thread title is so confusing.
That's the only thing I wanted to point out. Not going to post a view point because I think the topic is boring and pointless.
~cheers~
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
F2P games don't count, most of them are from japan/korea and mass produced in under 3 days. Everyone knows that a majority (not all) of these games feel incomplete and for the most part, are incomplete. Most of these games we get from asia are still in beta phases and go straight to the market for public use over here.
However, in regards to most of the recent sub games that have come out I don't quite see what your talking about. They do what they were designed to do and for the most part are complete. It's all a matter of opinion though.
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
I have the answer to your question Mr. OP.
You're right the argument is not 100% ture but it's not 100% false either. Polished content is just one reason of why an MMORPG is good. An MMORPG with 2 expansions will have more things to offer than a new MMORPG. However, one of the reasons why WoW survived on 2004 even though EQ had a lot more expansions than WoW is what I'm going to say below.
WoW offered a different gaming experience. WoW was a Quest Driven MMORPG back when Quest Driven system was new and FRESH. WoW was accessible by many people and was easy enough to attract main stream audience who are not MMORPG players. Compare that to games released after WoW. They are the same. They are Quest Driven, Easy Enough to attract Mainstream Audience, Same General Model.
Unlike when WoW was introduced, there was no WoW before it. Now WoW-like MMORPG must compete with WoW which is a stupid move. To be successful you need to innnovate from the core. You need Fresh or Different approach. If you're going to make another Quest Driven game with same Itemization system (Green, Blue, Purple) and have Auction Houses... what the hell are you doing? you're offering EXACTLY the same experience. Doesn't matter if you add dynamic content, different classes or even different combat system. The CORE of the game is the same. That is something WoW didn't do, it innovated a new thing.
New MMORPGs need to be different and offer a new experience on the CORE mechanics the CORE system of the game. Not just changing the Combat System, or adding "Dynamic Even" System.
My advice on anyone who's planning to make a new MMORPG is to scratch everything and design their game from scratch without ANY reference to WoW. Build a world that has enough tools to make players entertained in that world and feel involved. Less hand holding and scripted events because it's getting old now. MineCraft success is because of that, it's Fresh it's New and not Scripted and there's Zero Hand Holding.
Invest time and research to bring back the Social Element to the genre. The Genre Begs for it. Make the tools rely on social aspect after all it's a Massively Multiplayer Online Game, not a Massively Single Player Online Game. People will find a unique and fresh experience in this game and a lot will retain subscription instead of getting bored of same old crap after 2 hours of playing.
I have to disagree
WoW is a EQ clone. Nothing about WoW is Original. And I am not talking about Post Vanilla. I am talking about Vanilla WoW. You seem to be ignoring that factor. Vanilla WoW was much different than it is today. WoW sucess comes from the fact that it was a Clone of the former MMORPG King aka Everquest.
It added a few changed concepts to the old EQ model, just like newer games add changed concepts and new features.
Only difference is the mindset of Blizzard's Developers when it comes to competition.
If you follow Blizzard in the MMO market, you will see, that Blizzard has a very interesting strategy for dealing with surrounding competition.
THEY COPY AND CLONE!!!!
It works every single time.
Warhammer died because Blizzaard Cloned everything that made Warhammer seem new and interesting. (Point at the differences between TBC and WoTLK)
People claim Warhammer was unoriginal. Well how can you be a new MMORPG with new ideas, if Blizzard is going to Copy those same ideas before the game comes out of beta and improves them?
I will say this again, so maybe it will sink into the MMORPG community's head:
WORLD OF WARCRAFT IS THE ONLY MMORPG POST EVERQUEST 1, THAT DOES NOT GET CRITICIZED FOR COPYING STUFF, UNLIKE EVERY OTHER POST EVERQUEST1 MMORPG THAT HAS COME OUT. WHAT A COINCIDENCE THAT WORLD OF WARCRAFT IS THE MOST SUCCESSFUL MMORPG IN THE WEST, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME, ITS THE BIGGEST CLONE OF THEM ALL.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Your highlighted part at the bottom is just wrong. My goodness everytime WoW puts out a new "feature" they are accused of stealing it from XYZ game and often with at least some justification. They are even accused of copying UPCOMING features from games yet to be released. Example: they were accused of stealing the achievement system from WAR's system (I forget what it is called), they were accused of stealing siege warfare in Wintergrasp from WAR, they were accused in their last pre-expansion event of stealing Rifts from, well, Rift. The list goes on.
I do want to also point out that I don't disagree that wow "borrows," "steals," "copy's," insert whatever verb from other games, I'm just pointing out how wrong it is to say they don't get called out for it.
Check this forum..... When has Blizzard been bashed for cloning? When has it been bashed for cloning, as much as I see Warhammer, and every other so called WoW clone get ridiculed for cloning?
I want to see this. Guess Search function is disabled right now huh?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
But that's not what you said, you said that WoW doesn't get criticized for copying stuff. I just pointed out that they do get criticized for copying things quite heavily (and often deserved). Those 3 examples I gave were just the ones I came up with off the top of my head. Heck the most recent one was a 4 or 5 page thread of whether or not wow copied Rift's (the game) Rifts before it launched.
Edit: And I'm not disagreeing that they don't get called out for cloning but I was specifiically replying to your red highlighted part where you claimed they don't get bashed for copying, which they do, often, and it is often deserved.
DAoC? Shadowbane? Asheron's Call? Earth and Beyond? ATITD? EVE Online? Puzzle Pirates? Anarchy Online? NeoCron? Which of those experienced any prolific accusations of being a copy cat of previous MMOs? Also, the most common comment about WOW - presented by both detractors and fans - is that it simply copied what worked in previous MMOs and made it a lot more accessible and easy to use. WOW has a good 6 or so year history of beng called out for that.
Is this a case of revisionist history or are you just 1) not familiar with anything prior to WOW and 2) unaware that you completely contradict yourself by saying it's the only one not accused of being a clone but everyone calls it a clone?
In case you forgot your previous thread, here it is for you.
And to rewind to 2004... Alphawolf seems like Beyond3D's MMOExposed.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
People called out WoW, but where is the bashing? I seen Warhammer get bashed. I see SWTOR getting bashed. Why isnt WoW being bashed for Cloning?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
WOW was very successful for a reason, it WAS (emphasis on was) good. I wonder about people who get annoyed at it, its just a game, it doesn't matter. Damn Puzzle Fighter was better than Boulder Dash, I never smashed up my ZX Spectrum though.
Chins
For something to be a clone, it has to be compared to something older. WoW is 7 years old already, so for it to be compared and called a clone, it has to be with an older MMO. Most of the current MMORPG gamers weren't even around before 2004, let alone that they'd played the pre-2004 MMO's extensively.
Sure, there'll have been people that called WoW an EQ clone before its launch or after, but most MMO gamers around these days have never played EQ.
Most MMO gamers have played WoW, for a lot of them it has even been their first MMO so that's what they compare MMO's with that came later.
WoW can't be a clone of a newer MMO, but it can copy game elements and features from other MMO's, and that's what WoW has been accused of a lot.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
double post.
Why are you stating the obvious? Why are you quoting and arguing with me about something that we've been talking about too much and ignoring the original topic?
First of all WoW is not EverQuest clone. WoW did copy 90% of it's game mechanic from EverQuest. If you these two sentences doesn't make any sense to you it means you are probably new to many discussions. Refer to my blog below in my discussion I always talked about trivial subjects like this but I will explain even though I don't want to enter a different topic because the OP was talking about something else.
WoW did copy a lot of things from EQ that's true. I am an EQ player since 1999 so I'm not ignorant to this thing. But WoW DOES NOT play like EverQuest. WoW copied only 10% of what EQ was. WoW is Quest Driven, EQ sets you free. WoW has 2 rigid factions, EQ had hundreds of factions that you can choose to improve/degrade whenever you like. WoW is strictly linear you cannot attack any NPC. In EQ you can attack your own race, your own people if you wish to. WoW itemization system is artificial, EQ had individually designed items. The list is long and Iv'e talked about this so many times, it sucks that a lot of people don't realize this fact maybe because they never played EQ and they just repeat what everyon else says?
Just because WoW takes "some" features from EQ (which is 90% of what WoW is all about) and dumb it down so it would fit the taste of the mainstream audiance, doesn't make WoW gaming experience == EverQuest. Also, doesn't make WoW an EQ Clone. Clone means you get the same game experience but the difference between EQ game experience and list of features and game mechanics and WoW game experience is..... HUGE!!!! Polar Opposite. Don't tell me WoW is EQ clone that's ignorant. Heck EQ is First Person View WoW is 3rd Person. Refer to my infinite replies/posts/blog entries the features of EQ that are not in WoW are too many to count.
So, back to the subject. Because WoW offered a DIFFERENT "game experience" they reached more audience. It was DIFFERENT than EverQuest. Now the new games offer the SAME game experience of WoW and some of them even deserve the "WoW Clone" term like Rift. I find it shocking that you don't know that but it's not surprising if you never played EQ back in 1999-2001. Scratch the word "innovation" in my post because that was a mistake from my part and replace it with "different" because you have to admit Quest Driven system, Auction Houses, Green-Blue-Purple itemization and so many other things were a Key WoW Features that were never in EverQuest and that almost every MMORPG released afterwards copied THAT I wish they copied EQ but they copied WoW and offered EXACTLY same game experience.
You write in read that WoW doesn't get criticized for copying EQ. You can't be serious, are you just born yesterday? do you read blogs? WoW never innovated, again I apologize I usually reply very fast since I post at work, however what I meant is WoW DID offfer a different game experience that openned a big gate to people who are never even remotely interested in the genre. But I never meant that WoW "innovated" as in brought new game features however WoW did innovate in the game experience and openning the genre to a different audiance. WoW was the first to reach these millions non MMORPG players. That was what I meant in innovation. Innovation is not only game mechanics but the approach towards a different audience by dumbing down the game to create an easier game experience.
WoW is the most criticized MMORPG of all the history of the genre I find it shocking that someone can state otherwise in bold text.
EQ is a Diku MUDD clone with a graphical interface added.
The graphical interface is not even an EQ innovation cause Meridian came out with a graphical interface first.
Nothing is new.
I am a firm believer that you cannot compare a new game to an exsisting games past. If you are going to compare a new game, it should be compared to an older games present.
If we look are Rift. it gave out a polished game to compete with the current wow, not with the vanilla wow of the past. Saying that rifts is doing better than when wow came out is just plain out whack. We all know that wow started and boomed the playerbase. Now rift can reap off a larger playerbase. It does not make it better. Current wow and rift is clashing. Some are alreadty dooming Rift.
Anyway im just pointing out the obious. Compare new games to older games CURRENT state.