I wasn't aware of guild perks either. I haven't played WoW in a year and a half. I'm completely opposed to the system and would be against it being included in GW2. I don't think people should be forced to play a certain way. Either you force people to join guilds to get benefis, or you run into balance issues if you provide solo perks as well. If the solo perks are too good, you force people to trade being social for power, something I'm sure ArenaNet would be opposed to. And if they're balanced, as meowhead says, why have them at all?
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Perk aren't usually anything good really, they are just small bonus that have no real effects, at least in the games i played.
The real strenght about guild is more like the chat system and easy comunication. You have that exact situation in Rift for exemple because people outside of guild that enter a rift are totally unorganized and have no tool to do so, thats why people asked for spontaneous group to be formed when entering rift during beta.
The simple fact you can"t access the hp bar of other people outside of group is a problem, it was way better in Uo where you could create spontaneous groups just because of the way hp bar worked. You could just drag few bar from the strangers playing around you, and "bam!" you had your very own group. And this really had an impact in the game, spontaneous group post Uo are inexistant, and i beleive this is one of the reason with few other things like the trinity and class system. In uo you had people going to dungean and actually group up inside them, it was totally different than now people spaming a LFG chat, or queuing for a group.
Also i don't understand the poeple here that seam to think you need to be part of a guild to be social. they are many kind of group, faction is an other one for exemple. If the factions are hard coded (race faction) you don't need to do anything to be part of that group, you are part of it from the moment you choose your race. Its the same in real life, you are part of many group like your country and never did anything to be part of it, except be born and living there. Those group still have very strong social aspect.
Thats why i like Eve and Uo, in fact they give a lot of socialisation choice apart from guilds. Its like the pvp type you can choose, people have different taste, why not give them a lot of choice rather than having a despotic aproach? Or you are guilded or go to fuck off, thats pretty lame.
Its like merchant guild, why not put a system that would give you some commercial adventage if you are part of a merchant guild, it is just some design and coding problems. Merchant guild are just dull because no game mechanism support them. Social aspect in mmo is just underdeveloped, and guild is the trash can of social apects. Moo would benefit a lot to open up a bit. The simple fact you never can be part of more than one guild in mmo is demonstrative to me, there is no flexability to this system. As i said, guild system is like a trash can where you put all your social crap in. To me its like a full ffa full loot mmo for pvp. Pvp now have a bunch of aspect now thanks to the decade of mmo development, socialisation should have a bunch of aspect as well, but really mmo didn't made a lot of change and progression in that domain.
So again, I ask: Is it too much to ask that a player get a few perks for rolling solo?
Solo players already get the perks of not having to deal with guild drama, having guild n00bs cutting in on your play time begging you to help them with some remedial quest or watching as guild mooches sponge off the work of others while contributing little to nothing of their own. How and when you play is not determined by some guild schedule. Not having to put up with any of that is reward enough for solo players.
If you want any other perks, form your own guild and populate it with your characters and level up the guild like everyone else does.
And no one really has a problem with people prefering the nomad style of play. But it is when you start offering these guild-less players, tangible rewards, that guilded players can't even acquire is what people have issue with.
Right, now look at it from the other side... is it fair that a Guilded player recieves extra rewards, which a Solo player can't aquire, because he/she is not in a guild? I would say it is not!
So in other words... it is OK if you (the guilded one) gets stuff, and those who re guildless get nothing. But it is totally not OK if those guildless people also get stuff?! How is that fair?
No, I would say, do not reward anyone. If someone wants to join a guild then the friends he makes, the help he gets is reward enough, while he/she who does not want to be in a guild, the freedom to do what ever you want, when ever you want is reward enough. Wouldn't you agree, or are you so pressed on getting rewards because you fail at getting stuff from just playing the game?
Right, now look at it from the other side... is it fair that a Guilded player recieves extra rewards, which a Solo player can't aquire, because he/she is not in a guild? I would say it is not!
So in other words... it is OK if you (the guilded one) gets stuff, and those who re guildless get nothing. But it is totally not OK if those guildless people also get stuff?! How is that fair?
You do realize that guilds only get these 'perks' after having their members spending days/weeks/months leveling up their guilds don't you? They don't just get them just for 'having a guild'. How would it be fair that solo players gain welfare perks if they are not required to put in the same amount of time and effort as a whole guild to receive them?
You do realize that guilds only get these 'perks' after having their members spending days/weeks/months leveling up their guilds don't you? They don't just get them just for 'having a guild'. How would it be fair that solo players gain welfare perks if they are not required to put in the same amount of time and effort as a whole guild to receive them?
Right, but look at the Guild Perks list again. Guilds are "leveling up" by playing PvP Matches together and running quests together. Call my crazy, but to me, that sounds a lot like the are leveling up by: Playing the game. Something they would be doing anyway.
There is some guild farming, but what I've been talking about since the start of the this thread is the direction guilds are going in MMOs. We have yet to see what Arenanet does, but you know they're are putting something into place.
So no, I don't think it's fair to start giving guilds all kinds of perks for running quests together or PvPing together. But there it is on the list. And this kind of mentality is only going to grow in MMOS. Whether you agree with that or not, do you think it's fair for guilded people to get more money from a perk and actually....more of everything - and that a gamer who doesn't like guilding doesn't get any of this?
Not being in a guild isn't a perk guys. I see the thought process behind it, but it's faulty thinking. It's apples to oranges. Guild perks, at least in WoW and possibly GW2, are well just read this list again: http://www.wowwiki.com/Guild_advancement - more xp, more gold that directly goes into the guild bank - no farming required, etc, etc. And rolling solo is: I don't have to deal with some guild drama so while my character is alone on a mountain top somewhere I should sigh and think about all the 'perks' I have huh?
Yeah, they are getting some benefit from engaging in the multiplayer activities that make up Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games. So what? These games, by definition, are designed to be a multi-player experience and guilds are essentially the end result of that. And while MMOs have become more 'solo-friendly' over the years I don't see the point in rewarding those who choose to essentially do their best to play a single player game in a multi-player environment. And it is a choice.
If a game offers incentives for guilds to form and level up as part of game-play, people that choose to 'opt-out' of that system shouldn't be complaining. Especially when there is nothing really hindering you from benefitting from those same perks other than you choosing not to want to use the systems in place (ie. Guilds.)
I don't see the point in rewarding those who choose to essentially do their best to play a single player game in a multi-player environment. And it is a choice.
If a game offers incentives for guilds to form and level up as part of game-play, people that choose to 'opt-out' of that system shouldn't be complaining. Especially when there is nothing really hindering you from benefitting from those same perks other than you choosing not to want to use the systems in place (ie. Guilds.)
No one is opting out of anything. They are just playing their style - which is what MMOs are supposed to be about. They are paying their subscription fees. They are interacting with players for grouping, etc. Helping people. They just don't want a guild to report to.
Basically you're saying that the guild system is the only way to go and a player should, in essence, be punished for not adhearing to it. This is the exact problem that has made me passionate about this discussion in this thread.
If playing the game as a guild gives them rewards then playing the game as a nomad should come with its own rewards. People get so much more from guilding and it's alienating the soloist gamers out there. Sadly, I'm not even the biggest solo guy out there - I've done the guild thing. I've started guilds. I've had clans in my life since Dark Forces II came out. And yet I still see the benefits and the direction that guilds are starting to take in MMOs. And I see it as a problem that could use some solutions.
You do realize that guilds only get these 'perks' after having their members spending days/weeks/months leveling up their guilds don't you? They don't just get them just for 'having a guild'. How would it be fair that solo players gain welfare perks if they are not required to put in the same amount of time and effort as a whole guild to receive them?
Right, but look at the Guild Perks list again. Guilds are "leveling up" by playing PvP Matches together and running quests together. Call my crazy, but to me, that sounds a lot like the are leveling up by: Playing the game. Something they would be doing anyway.
There is some guild farming, but what I've been talking about since the start of the this thread is the direction guilds are going in MMOs. We have yet to see what Arenanet does, but you know they're are putting something into place.
So no, I don't think it's fair to start giving guilds all kinds of perks for running quests together or PvPing together. But there it is on the list. And this kind of mentality is only going to grow in MMOS. Whether you agree with that or not, do you think it's fair for guilded people to get more money from a perk and actually....more of everything - and that a gamer who doesn't like guilding doesn't get any of this?
Not being in a guild isn't a perk guys. I see the thought process behind it, but it's faulty thinking. It's apples to oranges. Guild perks, at least in WoW and possibly GW2, are well just read this list again: http://www.wowwiki.com/Guild_advancement - more xp, more gold that directly goes into the guild bank - no farming required, etc, etc. And rolling solo is: I don't have to deal with some guild drama so while my character is alone on a mountain top somewhere I should sigh and think about all the 'perks' I have huh?
Before anybody was made aware that there are actual guild perks in WoW with significant rewards, I don't consider it faulty thinking to say that not being in a guild has perks. The guild has tradeoffs. There might be a recipe in the guild bank you can use, but people are going to expect you to put something in there in exchange. That recipe didn't just grow on a tree. There might be a crafter, but you'd be expected to learn a craft. You get get help with a dungeon, but people are going to ask you for help. And so on.
Guilds do let you accomplish things that would be difficult to accomplish otherwise, especially with raiding. That could be considered a perk. But the downside of that is having to put in the hours, maybe getting yelled at, dealing with the drama and people not pulling their weight. A solo player doesn't have to deal with any of that crap. I don't think it's wrong to consider that a perk.
As I said before, I'm completely against the idea of having bonuses for being in guilds, and I really think ArenaNet will be as well. They have an anti grind philosophy. They have a philosophy of letting you play how you want, whenever you want because of no monthly fee. They have a policy of not making people have to work hard to get power. I can see there being guild perks and grinds that yield vanity rewards, but that's it.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Before anybody was made aware that there are actual guild perks in WoW with significant rewards, I don't consider it faulty thinking to say that not being in a guild has perks. The guild has tradeoffs. There might be a recipe in the guild bank you can use, but people are going to expect you to put something in there in exchange. That recipe didn't just grow on a tree. There might be a crafter, but you'd be expected to learn a craft. You get get help with a dungeon, but people are going to ask you for help. And so on.
Guilds do let you accomplish things that would be difficult to accomplish otherwise, especially with raiding. That could be considered a perk. But the downside of that is having to put in the hours, maybe getting yelled at, dealing with the drama and people not pulling their weight. A solo player doesn't have to deal with any of that crap. I don't think it's wrong to consider that a perk.
As I said before, I'm completely against the idea of having bonuses for being in guilds, and I really think ArenaNet will be as well. They have an anti grind philosophy. They have a philosophy of letting you play how you want, whenever you want because of no monthly fee. They have a policy of not making people have to work hard to get power. I can see there being guild perks and grinds that yield vanity rewards, but that's it.
I see a lot of valid points here. It's just that you're talking about a lot of gray areas to make some of your points. What one person considers a benefit another does not. And one thing we have to keep in mind is that no guild is alike - even though there are a lot similarities from a sociological standpoint.
For instance, we can't say that eveyone in a guild puts in 'work'. We also can't say every guild has drama, or the same expectations of members. We can't say that the recipe that one guildy put into the bank was a big or small sacrifice by the player as we don't know if the player had multiples and was just sharing junker items or if they spent time and money hunting for it only to give it to guild members out of kindness.
And there's that word again: Work. Again what constitutes as work and fun gameplay when it comes to helping your guild? It's gray. It's tricky. GW2, as you said, is removing the grind, so actually 'working' to to help your guild so that you can get a few perks in return might be an obselete concept in GW2. We don't know yet. However, I never really saw the guild relationship structure as give and take as much as having a constant flow of backup - which Blizzard has enhanced signifigantly. I felt like anything I gave to the guild bank was usaully no sweat off of me and I never farmed for anything. I only gave what I could when I could and took what I needed when I needed it. That is a consistent benefit. There's no set ammount of giving or taking. It's different for every player for every guild set up. So for me a guild has perks and not being in one doesn't. You're a generic character with no real backup. You can group with pals, and even have buddies make you things, but in the end it's not the same in my eyes no matter how we try to define the gray areas as a benefit or not.
And quick note for the record: From a roleplay standpoint, how COOL would it be to have a nomadic character who couldn't join guilds? I'd feel like double the badass from a character creation standpoint. I guess those traveling rogues are kinda my fave characters a lot of the time.
So let's see what Arenanet does. I feel that they will remove the grind, but totally set up guild progression. Things that help with leveling, gold, karma, PvP, etc. will go into it I suspect. Just speculation at this point really. I feel like they might even do some things that make me want to start a guild. Ha. We will see.
Basically you're saying that the guild system is the only way to go and a player should, in essence, be punished for not adhearing to it.
How are you being punished? You have all the freedom in the world to play the game the way you want to. The core of your argument appears to be you being jealous that someone else is getting some virtual widget that you aren't, and you want the same without having to do anything for it.
9 times out of 10 I don't join guilds in MMOs and enjoy playing the game that way. The last thing on my mind is some petty concern that a bunch of schlubs in some guild is earning a bit more xp/gold than me because of some worthless guild perk. I don't play MMOs to worry about 'keeping up with the Joneses'.
How are you being punished? You have all the freedom in the world to play the game the way you want to. The core of your argument appears to be you being jealous that someone else is getting some virtual widget that you aren't, and you want the same without having to do anything for it.
9 times out of 10 I don't join guilds in MMOs and enjoy playing the game that way. The last thing on my mind is some petty concern that a bunch of schlubs in some guild is earning a bit more xp/gold than me because of some worthless guild perk. I don't play MMOs to worry about 'keeping up with the Joneses'.
'Core' of my argument is jealousy, huh? How estute. After all the typing I did and all the evidence I've shown, all you can come up with is "You're jealous". Typical forum goer I guess.
So earing more XP/Gold than someone is a "worthless guild perk" huh? Hahaha. I think I'll take the XP and gold bonus, thanks.
The fact of the matter is the whole "You want something for nothing arugment" doesn't apply here. To choose NOT to be in a guild is doing something and it deserves something. It is a choice that puts your character in a much different position than a guilded character - at least when it comes to big ol' WoW. And as other MMOS adopt what WoW is promoting with Guild Progression and Guild Leveling, you better believe that an unguilded guy is not in a good place. It's really not up for debate because I already showed Guild perks and you obviously understand them - you're just trying to pass them off as lacking value for some inane reason. Since when does bonus XP and Gold not have value in an MMO?
The point of a Massively MULTIPLAYER experience, is to interact with people. MMO's are designed to be SOCIAL games, just like real life is a SOCIAL experience...you meet and interact with people on a day to day basis. You know what? The person who "solo plays" real life doesn't exactly get rewarded for it. Hell, there's a tax break for being married, essentially for "grouping up" and you have to either join a company or make your own to survive in the real world, just like joining a guild in an MMO.
So, if you want to play it solo, fine, but keep in mind that there are drawbacks to this just like in real life. A video game should not reward you for playing the game the way it WASN'T desgned to be played. If you don't want to join a guild, fine, your business. But also keep in mind that most of the people in this thread have been generalizing guilds as these massive dramafest raid 7 days a week guilds. There are guilds for almost every type of person. Small, tight knit groups of only 10-20 people, and large 100 person raiding guilds.
As for those who say that having there be benefits to joining a guild penalizes solo players, the reverse is true. Having benefits for playing solo penalizes guild players. And quite frankly, there have always been benefits to joining a guild. The old saying, "Strength in numbers" is always going to true.
There are thousands of high quality single player games out there. I can understand not wanting to join a guild, but these MMO solo players boggle my mind. They are basically paying to play a social game that is years behind most single player rpg's. These casual anti-social gamers are killing the genre.
I play a little indie game that a single player can thrive in. It's a Sandbox Space Sim. PM me if that's soemthign that you may be interesed in.
It is not realistic that you will see every single person traveling in mobs of their guild... And it is because of people like you why people tend to be the lonewolf in the game. I don't know what it is about us players who like to solo it that boggles your mind, but I think maybe you need a break from the games. speaking for my self... I play mmo's for the game, not to associate with elitis jackasses such as yourself.
After all the typing I did and all the evidence I've shown, all you can come up with is "You're jealous". Typical forum goer I guess.
Evidence? You haven't shown us shit all except for an opinion that is biased to reflect yourdesire to get welfare perks because you don't like that someone else has something that you don't. Where does it stop? Next will you be wanting raid/event/dungeon scaling to cater to solo players that give out the same rewards as group based ones?
Developers are generous enough to give solo players an avenue of advancement in multiplayer games, but don't expect them to reward you for it. Just play the damn game and stop worrying that someone else has something that you don't, because that is always going to be the case for any number of reasons.
I agree with you, Creepsville,(thought that avatar image does creep me out a bit) I am uncomfortable with the direction guilds are going, and I am sure WoW has a lot of clout with regards to that, but we do not "know" what Anet is planning, or even if they are planning something at all. I dare say there will be guild halls or something to provide some functionality similar to that of GW1, but I do not think we will be seeing anything near what WoW has done, which alienates anyone who is not in a large guild.
I did not see you mention this, but those guild perks also punish small guilds, because of the sheer amount of time needed to get those perks. Large guild can get the stuff much, much faster. So the system not only punishes solo players, it punishes people who want to be in a small guild of closer people. Say you want to be in a guild with maybe ten people from your school or work? It is going to take a much longer time to get benefits that many guilds have had for months now. Blizzard really is trying to force players into a certain play style, one that better suits their purposes.
I do not think Arenanet will try to do this. We obviously cannot know what they are going to put in place, but judging from GW1 and from what they have said about GW2, I do not think they want to force players to do something or play in a way that is not as fun for them. Their philosophy seems to be "it's a game, do whatever you want." I like that. We will see what happens.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Already done talking to you. It's not wise to argue something with someone on repeat. Maybe next time read some points and reflect instead of just attacking?
I apreciate your more positive view. And Arenanet is smart enough to where they don't want to punish players and I do have a lot of faith in them. My gut told me that they might following in the current direction when it comes to Guild implementation though. I'll remain positive. Hopeful. When they announce guild features we'll better be able to discuss this topic. They've been so smart about their game so far that if they did give bonuses and growth to guilds I would expect them to help the solo player out.
Comments
I wasn't aware of guild perks either. I haven't played WoW in a year and a half. I'm completely opposed to the system and would be against it being included in GW2. I don't think people should be forced to play a certain way. Either you force people to join guilds to get benefis, or you run into balance issues if you provide solo perks as well. If the solo perks are too good, you force people to trade being social for power, something I'm sure ArenaNet would be opposed to. And if they're balanced, as meowhead says, why have them at all?
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Perk aren't usually anything good really, they are just small bonus that have no real effects, at least in the games i played.
The real strenght about guild is more like the chat system and easy comunication. You have that exact situation in Rift for exemple because people outside of guild that enter a rift are totally unorganized and have no tool to do so, thats why people asked for spontaneous group to be formed when entering rift during beta.
The simple fact you can"t access the hp bar of other people outside of group is a problem, it was way better in Uo where you could create spontaneous groups just because of the way hp bar worked. You could just drag few bar from the strangers playing around you, and "bam!" you had your very own group. And this really had an impact in the game, spontaneous group post Uo are inexistant, and i beleive this is one of the reason with few other things like the trinity and class system. In uo you had people going to dungean and actually group up inside them, it was totally different than now people spaming a LFG chat, or queuing for a group.
Also i don't understand the poeple here that seam to think you need to be part of a guild to be social. they are many kind of group, faction is an other one for exemple. If the factions are hard coded (race faction) you don't need to do anything to be part of that group, you are part of it from the moment you choose your race. Its the same in real life, you are part of many group like your country and never did anything to be part of it, except be born and living there. Those group still have very strong social aspect.
Thats why i like Eve and Uo, in fact they give a lot of socialisation choice apart from guilds. Its like the pvp type you can choose, people have different taste, why not give them a lot of choice rather than having a despotic aproach? Or you are guilded or go to fuck off, thats pretty lame.
Its like merchant guild, why not put a system that would give you some commercial adventage if you are part of a merchant guild, it is just some design and coding problems. Merchant guild are just dull because no game mechanism support them. Social aspect in mmo is just underdeveloped, and guild is the trash can of social apects. Moo would benefit a lot to open up a bit. The simple fact you never can be part of more than one guild in mmo is demonstrative to me, there is no flexability to this system. As i said, guild system is like a trash can where you put all your social crap in. To me its like a full ffa full loot mmo for pvp. Pvp now have a bunch of aspect now thanks to the decade of mmo development, socialisation should have a bunch of aspect as well, but really mmo didn't made a lot of change and progression in that domain.
Solo players already get the perks of not having to deal with guild drama, having guild n00bs cutting in on your play time begging you to help them with some remedial quest or watching as guild mooches sponge off the work of others while contributing little to nothing of their own. How and when you play is not determined by some guild schedule. Not having to put up with any of that is reward enough for solo players.
If you want any other perks, form your own guild and populate it with your characters and level up the guild like everyone else does.
Right, now look at it from the other side... is it fair that a Guilded player recieves extra rewards, which a Solo player can't aquire, because he/she is not in a guild? I would say it is not!
So in other words... it is OK if you (the guilded one) gets stuff, and those who re guildless get nothing. But it is totally not OK if those guildless people also get stuff?! How is that fair?
No, I would say, do not reward anyone. If someone wants to join a guild then the friends he makes, the help he gets is reward enough, while he/she who does not want to be in a guild, the freedom to do what ever you want, when ever you want is reward enough. Wouldn't you agree, or are you so pressed on getting rewards because you fail at getting stuff from just playing the game?
You do realize that guilds only get these 'perks' after having their members spending days/weeks/months leveling up their guilds don't you? They don't just get them just for 'having a guild'. How would it be fair that solo players gain welfare perks if they are not required to put in the same amount of time and effort as a whole guild to receive them?
Right, but look at the Guild Perks list again. Guilds are "leveling up" by playing PvP Matches together and running quests together. Call my crazy, but to me, that sounds a lot like the are leveling up by: Playing the game. Something they would be doing anyway.
There is some guild farming, but what I've been talking about since the start of the this thread is the direction guilds are going in MMOs. We have yet to see what Arenanet does, but you know they're are putting something into place.
So no, I don't think it's fair to start giving guilds all kinds of perks for running quests together or PvPing together. But there it is on the list. And this kind of mentality is only going to grow in MMOS. Whether you agree with that or not, do you think it's fair for guilded people to get more money from a perk and actually....more of everything - and that a gamer who doesn't like guilding doesn't get any of this?
Not being in a guild isn't a perk guys. I see the thought process behind it, but it's faulty thinking. It's apples to oranges. Guild perks, at least in WoW and possibly GW2, are well just read this list again: http://www.wowwiki.com/Guild_advancement - more xp, more gold that directly goes into the guild bank - no farming required, etc, etc. And rolling solo is: I don't have to deal with some guild drama so while my character is alone on a mountain top somewhere I should sigh and think about all the 'perks' I have huh?
Yeah, they are getting some benefit from engaging in the multiplayer activities that make up Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games. So what? These games, by definition, are designed to be a multi-player experience and guilds are essentially the end result of that. And while MMOs have become more 'solo-friendly' over the years I don't see the point in rewarding those who choose to essentially do their best to play a single player game in a multi-player environment. And it is a choice.
If a game offers incentives for guilds to form and level up as part of game-play, people that choose to 'opt-out' of that system shouldn't be complaining. Especially when there is nothing really hindering you from benefitting from those same perks other than you choosing not to want to use the systems in place (ie. Guilds.)
No one is opting out of anything. They are just playing their style - which is what MMOs are supposed to be about. They are paying their subscription fees. They are interacting with players for grouping, etc. Helping people. They just don't want a guild to report to.
Basically you're saying that the guild system is the only way to go and a player should, in essence, be punished for not adhearing to it. This is the exact problem that has made me passionate about this discussion in this thread.
If playing the game as a guild gives them rewards then playing the game as a nomad should come with its own rewards. People get so much more from guilding and it's alienating the soloist gamers out there. Sadly, I'm not even the biggest solo guy out there - I've done the guild thing. I've started guilds. I've had clans in my life since Dark Forces II came out. And yet I still see the benefits and the direction that guilds are starting to take in MMOs. And I see it as a problem that could use some solutions.
Before anybody was made aware that there are actual guild perks in WoW with significant rewards, I don't consider it faulty thinking to say that not being in a guild has perks. The guild has tradeoffs. There might be a recipe in the guild bank you can use, but people are going to expect you to put something in there in exchange. That recipe didn't just grow on a tree. There might be a crafter, but you'd be expected to learn a craft. You get get help with a dungeon, but people are going to ask you for help. And so on.
Guilds do let you accomplish things that would be difficult to accomplish otherwise, especially with raiding. That could be considered a perk. But the downside of that is having to put in the hours, maybe getting yelled at, dealing with the drama and people not pulling their weight. A solo player doesn't have to deal with any of that crap. I don't think it's wrong to consider that a perk.
As I said before, I'm completely against the idea of having bonuses for being in guilds, and I really think ArenaNet will be as well. They have an anti grind philosophy. They have a philosophy of letting you play how you want, whenever you want because of no monthly fee. They have a policy of not making people have to work hard to get power. I can see there being guild perks and grinds that yield vanity rewards, but that's it.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
I see a lot of valid points here. It's just that you're talking about a lot of gray areas to make some of your points. What one person considers a benefit another does not. And one thing we have to keep in mind is that no guild is alike - even though there are a lot similarities from a sociological standpoint.
For instance, we can't say that eveyone in a guild puts in 'work'. We also can't say every guild has drama, or the same expectations of members. We can't say that the recipe that one guildy put into the bank was a big or small sacrifice by the player as we don't know if the player had multiples and was just sharing junker items or if they spent time and money hunting for it only to give it to guild members out of kindness.
And there's that word again: Work. Again what constitutes as work and fun gameplay when it comes to helping your guild? It's gray. It's tricky. GW2, as you said, is removing the grind, so actually 'working' to to help your guild so that you can get a few perks in return might be an obselete concept in GW2. We don't know yet. However, I never really saw the guild relationship structure as give and take as much as having a constant flow of backup - which Blizzard has enhanced signifigantly. I felt like anything I gave to the guild bank was usaully no sweat off of me and I never farmed for anything. I only gave what I could when I could and took what I needed when I needed it. That is a consistent benefit. There's no set ammount of giving or taking. It's different for every player for every guild set up. So for me a guild has perks and not being in one doesn't. You're a generic character with no real backup. You can group with pals, and even have buddies make you things, but in the end it's not the same in my eyes no matter how we try to define the gray areas as a benefit or not.
And quick note for the record: From a roleplay standpoint, how COOL would it be to have a nomadic character who couldn't join guilds? I'd feel like double the badass from a character creation standpoint. I guess those traveling rogues are kinda my fave characters a lot of the time.
So let's see what Arenanet does. I feel that they will remove the grind, but totally set up guild progression. Things that help with leveling, gold, karma, PvP, etc. will go into it I suspect. Just speculation at this point really. I feel like they might even do some things that make me want to start a guild. Ha. We will see.
How are you being punished? You have all the freedom in the world to play the game the way you want to. The core of your argument appears to be you being jealous that someone else is getting some virtual widget that you aren't, and you want the same without having to do anything for it.
9 times out of 10 I don't join guilds in MMOs and enjoy playing the game that way. The last thing on my mind is some petty concern that a bunch of schlubs in some guild is earning a bit more xp/gold than me because of some worthless guild perk. I don't play MMOs to worry about 'keeping up with the Joneses'.
'Core' of my argument is jealousy, huh? How estute. After all the typing I did and all the evidence I've shown, all you can come up with is "You're jealous". Typical forum goer I guess.
So earing more XP/Gold than someone is a "worthless guild perk" huh? Hahaha. I think I'll take the XP and gold bonus, thanks.
The fact of the matter is the whole "You want something for nothing arugment" doesn't apply here. To choose NOT to be in a guild is doing something and it deserves something. It is a choice that puts your character in a much different position than a guilded character - at least when it comes to big ol' WoW. And as other MMOS adopt what WoW is promoting with Guild Progression and Guild Leveling, you better believe that an unguilded guy is not in a good place. It's really not up for debate because I already showed Guild perks and you obviously understand them - you're just trying to pass them off as lacking value for some inane reason. Since when does bonus XP and Gold not have value in an MMO?
The point of a Massively MULTIPLAYER experience, is to interact with people. MMO's are designed to be SOCIAL games, just like real life is a SOCIAL experience...you meet and interact with people on a day to day basis. You know what? The person who "solo plays" real life doesn't exactly get rewarded for it. Hell, there's a tax break for being married, essentially for "grouping up" and you have to either join a company or make your own to survive in the real world, just like joining a guild in an MMO.
So, if you want to play it solo, fine, but keep in mind that there are drawbacks to this just like in real life. A video game should not reward you for playing the game the way it WASN'T desgned to be played. If you don't want to join a guild, fine, your business. But also keep in mind that most of the people in this thread have been generalizing guilds as these massive dramafest raid 7 days a week guilds. There are guilds for almost every type of person. Small, tight knit groups of only 10-20 people, and large 100 person raiding guilds.
As for those who say that having there be benefits to joining a guild penalizes solo players, the reverse is true. Having benefits for playing solo penalizes guild players. And quite frankly, there have always been benefits to joining a guild. The old saying, "Strength in numbers" is always going to true.
It is not realistic that you will see every single person traveling in mobs of their guild... And it is because of people like you why people tend to be the lonewolf in the game. I don't know what it is about us players who like to solo it that boggles your mind, but I think maybe you need a break from the games. speaking for my self... I play mmo's for the game, not to associate with elitis jackasses such as yourself.
Vladriel
Evidence? You haven't shown us shit all except for an opinion that is biased to reflect yourdesire to get welfare perks because you don't like that someone else has something that you don't. Where does it stop? Next will you be wanting raid/event/dungeon scaling to cater to solo players that give out the same rewards as group based ones?
Developers are generous enough to give solo players an avenue of advancement in multiplayer games, but don't expect them to reward you for it. Just play the damn game and stop worrying that someone else has something that you don't, because that is always going to be the case for any number of reasons.
I agree with you, Creepsville,(thought that avatar image does creep me out a bit) I am uncomfortable with the direction guilds are going, and I am sure WoW has a lot of clout with regards to that, but we do not "know" what Anet is planning, or even if they are planning something at all. I dare say there will be guild halls or something to provide some functionality similar to that of GW1, but I do not think we will be seeing anything near what WoW has done, which alienates anyone who is not in a large guild.
I did not see you mention this, but those guild perks also punish small guilds, because of the sheer amount of time needed to get those perks. Large guild can get the stuff much, much faster. So the system not only punishes solo players, it punishes people who want to be in a small guild of closer people. Say you want to be in a guild with maybe ten people from your school or work? It is going to take a much longer time to get benefits that many guilds have had for months now. Blizzard really is trying to force players into a certain play style, one that better suits their purposes.
I do not think Arenanet will try to do this. We obviously cannot know what they are going to put in place, but judging from GW1 and from what they have said about GW2, I do not think they want to force players to do something or play in a way that is not as fun for them. Their philosophy seems to be "it's a game, do whatever you want." I like that. We will see what happens.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
Already done talking to you. It's not wise to argue something with someone on repeat. Maybe next time read some points and reflect instead of just attacking?
@Dub
I apreciate your more positive view. And Arenanet is smart enough to where they don't want to punish players and I do have a lot of faith in them. My gut told me that they might following in the current direction when it comes to Guild implementation though. I'll remain positive. Hopeful. When they announce guild features we'll better be able to discuss this topic. They've been so smart about their game so far that if they did give bonuses and growth to guilds I would expect them to help the solo player out.