Not even goin to vote as I think this is a retarded poll as many are completely against Dmg meters. I'm pretty sure everyone learned for WoW how GS, dmg meters, and to a degree achievments can eat away at a community.
yes from me.i'd like to have a way of checking different builds and see which skills and buffs are more effective,at list useing it on dummies will give an idea whether you are on the right track or not,on the other hand when fighting mobs damage meter might be useless due to combat specific
It's called parsers....
There should be enough allowance of 3rd party, out of game dmg meter quivilents but nothing in game
Originally posted by Quirhid They said no. Why ask?
Asking questions is a good thing even if the answer is staring you in the face. If anything, it's a good habit to get into.
I say No because GW2 cannot utilize damage meters at all. It is just impossible due to the dodgy/blocky fighting system. That would be like trying to find the DPS of a character from a fighting game, it's just not going to happen with random movements taken into account. If this game was "tank and spank" like WoW, then I could see it being possible, but it's not even close to that.
It is merely impossible to accurately measure that statistic in these conditions. There are too many interfering variables that would come into play. Sorry, no DPS meters for you.
You CAN however, boast about your highest spike damage or boast about how you took on 20 mobs and didn't lose even 1HP. But those are just boasts.
Originally posted by xKingdomx In reply to the post above, damage meter may show you what you need to stat more and etc, but in a balance game, adding one point to ,for example, strength show provide equal amount of advantage compare to one point to dexterity, it just tailor the character to your liking. This kind of balance is simply impossible. Not to weigh the post down with math, but an increase to strength (+damage) is only going to be equal to an increase in dexterity (+crit) at very specific values. Otherwise one will always be better than the other. The more damage you have, the more valuable crit becomes because it doubles the high base damage of your hit more often. The less damage you have, the more you need to buff your damage instead of your crit (because doubling a low number is still a low number). (I'm resisting the urge for a numerical example, but I could provide one if necessary)
You are taking under the assumption that strength will have to be about (+damage) and dexterity (+crit).
Damage meter, as I said before, turns the game into a number counting fest, this is a MMORPG, not MMOLPS (lets play a spreadsheet), you said in a latter post that you are talking to a wall here, how about answer my whole post instead of just quoting one bit that suits you. People continously whine about gear grind in MMO, how raiding becomes the central point of every game or every MMO does NOT have a coherent story. Do they realise damage meter caused half of that? Damage meter makes people focus so heavily about dealing that highest damage, they forget other elements of a game, will they bother with a story? will they bother with actually talking to the guy standing in a dungeon with you? All those people will do is "hey whats your dps? we need dps. DPS is tha best" It is a simple logical progression that gear grind evolves from the excessive use of damage meters, better gears means better stats means better DPS.
Now to brings the argument back to GW2, GW2's combat requires a lot more than just press the hotkey, contrast to
Originally posted by cali59 But on its most basic level it's about killing something before it kills you.
The fact that the game requires a physical aiming to a lot of the skills makes all the difference to the combat, having the bestest gears will not guarantee to improve your damage nor will
Originally posted by cali59 I don't know if you guys know this but one of the biggest DPS killers in WoW is simply how you press your buttons. Suppose you have one skill that does 1000 damage and you can press it every second. Mash that button so it fires everytime it's off cooldown, you'll do 1000 DPS. But if instead you wait until you see it's off cooldown and then hit it, you'll be adding about 200ms of human reaction time. 1000/(1+0.2) = 833 DPS. You're playing a one button game and doing 17% less DPS than the guy next to you.
if you can't aim in the right direction, the button mashing wouldn't make a different in DPS, you keep using other games that has a different combat mechanics to GW2 to support your argument, WoW doesn't have arrows that shoot straight, and GW2 doesn't have auto-tracking fireball. This thread is about the implementation of damage meters in GW2, not damage meters in general. For other games it might be great, but damage meters only shows half (or less than half) of the story with dodging and aiming ingame mechanics, and that simply isn't worth the negativity it brings to games.
PS: so are you talking about damage meters or log parsers, as far I know, they are very different things.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
IMO people get too wraped up in "HOW BEASTLY" their dps is..if your playing a dps class..then yur spitting out dps..the last thing they need is to add a assload of add-ons to this game..next people will be wanting gearscores and quest/crafting/pvp helpers witch in the end i think IMO ruined Wow
what ever happened to the joy of finding a group no matter what they had or if they were with your guild or even if they didnt even know em and trying their damdest to win fights..everything comes so instant for everyone in mmo's nowa days ..no1 wants to work for what they get
1 thing that would make this game totally stand out..no books / guides / add-ons ..get out there and find stuff on your own! old eq style ...but this day and age theres a web-site for everything id highly doubt it could work..but i love playing like that
In reply to the post above, damage meter may show you what you need to stat more and etc, but in a balance game, adding one point to ,for example, strength show provide equal amount of advantage compare to one point to dexterity, it just tailor the character to your liking.
This kind of balance is simply impossible. Not to weigh the post down with math, but an increase to strength (+damage) is only going to be equal to an increase in dexterity (+crit) at very specific values. Otherwise one will always be better than the other. The more damage you have, the more valuable crit becomes because it doubles the high base damage of your hit more often. The less damage you have, the more you need to buff your damage instead of your crit (because doubling a low number is still a low number).
(I'm resisting the urge for a numerical example, but I could provide one if necessary)
You are taking under the assumption that strength will have to be about (+damage) and dexterity (+crit).
Damage meter, as I said before, turns the game into a number counting fest, this is a MMORPG, not MMOLPS (lets play a spreadsheet), you said in a latter post that you are talking to a wall here, how about answer my whole post instead of just quoting one bit that suits you.
People continously whine about gear grind in MMO, how raiding becomes the central point of every game or every MMO does NOT have a coherent story. Do they realise damage meter caused half of that? Damage meter makes people focus so heavily about dealing that highest damage, they forget other elements of a game, will they bother with a story? will they bother with actually talking to the guy standing in a dungeon with you? All those people will do is "hey whats your dps? we need dps. DPS is tha best" It is a simple logical progression that gear grind evolves from the excessive use of damage meters, better gears means better stats means better DPS.
Now to brings the argument back to GW2, GW2's combat requires a lot more than just press the hotkey, contrast to
Originally posted by cali59
But on its most basic level it's about killing something before it kills you.
The fact that the game requires a physical aiming to a lot of the skills makes all the difference to the combat, having the bestest gears will not guarantee to improve your damage nor will
Originally posted by cali59
I don't know if you guys know this but one of the biggest DPS killers in WoW is simply how you press your buttons. Suppose you have one skill that does 1000 damage and you can press it every second. Mash that button so it fires everytime it's off cooldown, you'll do 1000 DPS. But if instead you wait until you see it's off cooldown and then hit it, you'll be adding about 200ms of human reaction time. 1000/(1+0.2) = 833 DPS. You're playing a one button game and doing 17% less DPS than the guy next to you.
if you can't aim in the right direction, the button mashing wouldn't make a different in DPS, you keep using other games that has a different combat mechanics to GW2 to support your argument, WoW doesn't have arrows that shoot straight, and GW2 doesn't have auto-tracking fireball. This thread is about the implementation of damage meters in GW2, not damage meters in general. For other games it might be great, but damage meters only shows half (or less than half) of the story with dodging and aiming ingame mechanics, and that simply isn't worth the negativity it brings to games.
PS: so are you talking about damage meters or log parsers, as far I know, they are very different things.
I only quoted that one part because in that post it was the only part I wanted to focus on. I followed that up with another reply that was more general in scope.
And for the record I would absolutely love the most incredibly detailed log parser ever to exist. I was actually thinking I would start another thread "Log parsers: yes or no" because it seems like not everybody does get the difference between them. I'm absolutely fine with having no damage meter for the reasons people give (too easy to misrepresent, cluttered UI, causing a focus on numbers and not practical effectiveness).
As far as damage meters (or parsers) being less effective at telling a story in GW2 than WoW, I totally disagree. In GW2 there are ground effects, there is implied targeting, dodging, etc. But on some level, there's damage dealt. Or, since the encounter has the same length for everybody, there's damage per second. It is a measure of effectiveness. Of course its results need to be taken with a grain of salt and not just blindly adhered to, but there is information there. Like I keep saying, it's a tool. It might let you see the difference between the elementalist who just runs for their life when they get aggro and the one that casts while moving in between dodges. Or the guy who is using his more efficient attacks more often. Obviously when someone adopts a control or support role or shifts to one mid combat, you shouldn't chastise them for not putting up the numbers, just as you'd never yell at a WoW tank or healer for their DPS numbers. And again, I'm not pro-damage meter for a lot of these reasons.
What I am for is log parsers, something that will let you analyze everything about an encounter after the fact. How much damage did that guy take. How many times did he dodge? What was the curve of his damage like over time (was he casting between dodges)? How many times did the warrior have to use his snare? Did the trait that causes bleeding cause a significant amount of damage? How useful was that party regeneration boon (was it wasted on everybody but one guy)?
Those are the kind of questions that incredibly detailed log parsing can answer for you, ones that are truly helpful not just for increasing damage, but playing better in general.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Damage meters: the only satisfaction (in terms of competition) one can get when not PvPing. The same applies even in PvP circumstances when no skill or teamplay play a factor in winning, just gear or rating. Personaly i dont give a crap if GW2 has dmg meters or not, just give us -for once- a gameplay comparable to that of DotA where even a handicapped person can play as long as they are focused, have good communication with the team and basicaly improve themselves in terms of how good they play instead of a virtual toon. Quality & Innovation in terms of gameplay is above all.
Pure dps just doesn't fit a fps like combat system (even if in GW2 it is not a pure fps like system, it is heavily tweaked system).
If they implement one, and why not? But if they do it must be a lot more complicated and should at least get the damage taken into the formula to make it interesting since in fps dodging damage is as important as dealing some. In tab targeting system you cannot dodge so pure dps is good enough. Also the time scale in dps is just too short, second is too short for a fps system, it should be 30second laps or 1minute since movement is a good deal of your fighting success.
All in one it seam a bit too complicated to implement such a thing for what it give, but it could be interesting.
I think the problem is is that ArenaNet want to remove all competition from PvE, and I support that. There is no score in dynamic events, if you participate then you get the same as everyone else, there is no resource node-stealing because resource nodes are instanced to the player, you can't objective steal, you can't loot grab, you can't elite steal, they've gone out of their way to stress that this is a game which isn't for competition or griefing, it's a game where the players are supposed to unite againist the NPC forces and get their competition from that.
Now a lot of PvE players prefer that, and I know I enjoy that, and there's been a noticeable shift in the market towards that sort of mindset, not with the PvP or competition-happy minority, but with the vast majority it's true. For the vast majority of people, they have more fun working together in a PvE game than they do working against each other in competition. Competition is becoming less and less an element at the forefront of gaming, except for in PvP, of coursre.
The notion behind Guild Wars 2 is that 'if you want competition, go do some PvP,' and that's precisely why I can't see there being a damage metre there, and why I don't think that one could ever fit. And again, I think that damage metres are just UI cancer that detract from the experience that they're trying to provide. Not to mention that, as others have pointed out, in a game which is more than 1234141231234132-WoW you won't get a real image of what's going on from a damage metre, because they can't give you a full picture on how tactically a player plays, so any information they do give you is bunk, your numbers will be worthless if you're not as tactical as the next guy.
Are htey using profession combos and working with other people to increase their damage?
Are they playing tactically and watching the field to do the amount of damage they should be?
Are they paying attention to the field and how it changes, attacking the most important targets?
How well are they placing ground effects to damage an important group of foes?
Were they the group responsible for just setting up those three cannons that are doing massive damage to the Shatterer?
Versus those five points, numbers mean nothing, a damage metre is meaningless unless it can factor in those things. But here's the problem: It can't.
Fact: For those reasons alone, a damage metre can't work. The damage metre was spawned out of the hellhole that is WoW, and WoW doesn't have any of the above four mentioned things, they're different games. In WoW a single person's damage is more important than how tactically they play on the field, in GW2 it isn't.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, adding a damage metre to GW2 would be like addinga a damage metre to a tactical group shooter like SWAT IV. What point would that serve? None.
Conclusion: A damage metre is completely pointless in Guild Wars 2. Why? Guild Wars 2 is not WoW or GW1. There are so many variables on the field that a damage metre would make worthless people whose only contribution is large damage numbers an over-inflated ego. That's not what this game is about. Not even remotely.
I prefer being able to see numbers. I've noticed the only people who don't like meters of any sort, are those that don't like being criticized on their gameplay. If you're worried that meters wouldn't be able to accurately measure ones performance you're probably right, but that's where communication comes in handy.
Even if it's just measuring personal damage like in the zaishen testing area, it would be enough for me. There always needs be a way to measure and improve upon previous performance, unfortunately for most games it involves recording yourself and reviewing footage, which is huge waste of time.
I'll spell it out (and read my above post again): Guild Wars 2 is not about single unit damage. The damage that you put out as a single player is completely meaningless, if you judge yourself based on that, you're worthless.
Your tactics are the most important thing in Guild Wars 2. Does a damage metre account for people using environmental weapons that they set up but act as their own entity? No. Does it account for tactics on the field? No. Does it account for players using tactics to end the fight more quickly by strategically taking out the correct targets? No.
It just gives tweens an ego boost by making them think they're doing really well because of numbers, but Guild Wars 2 is not about numbers. WoW is about yer bloody numbers, and you need to get your brain out of that gutter and stop comparing GW2 to WoW. You need to instead compare it to something like a group tactical combat game.
Now, again, what purpose would a damage metre have in something like SWAT IV? If someone can answer that, then I'm listening, but there is no answer to that. A damage metre would be idiotic in SWAT IV.
I prefer being able to see numbers. I've noticed the only people who don't like meters of any sort, are those that don't like being criticized on their gameplay. If you're worried that meters wouldn't be able to accurately measure ones performance you're probably right, but that's where communication comes in handy.
Even if it's just measuring personal damage like in the zaishen testing area, it would be enough for me. There always needs be a way to measure and improve upon previous performance, unfortunately for most games it involves recording yourself and reviewing footage, which is huge waste of time.
Guild Wars 2 is not about damage numbers, there are so many other components that play part just like Dream_Chaser said that it would be impossible to distinguish a good player from a bad player with damage numbers alone. So while some games fit or rather need to have damage meters, in Guild Wars 2 it simply won't work.
What I will add is that maximising you damage and thus not playing tactically could actually make you a hindrance and an annoyance on the battlefield. Whilst you're trying to build up your L33T numbers, you're ignoring healing people, supporting people, resurrecting people, and working with other people on the field. It's just you, your target, and your bloody numbers.
This is exactly why people need to stop thinking like this, because it will make them fail for everyone in Guild Wars 2. If you're in a dynamic event and you're doing nothing more than number-fapping, then you're not playing tactically. You're not helping to set up cannons, you're ignoring strategic approaches to combat, you're not going for the right mobs, you're not interacting with things and helping to build/set up stuff, you're just... there. And kind of worthless. You're making the dynamic event more difficult whilst not actually really contributing everything.
How are L33T DPS numbers going to put out fires on that farm, eh? I'd like to see someone try that!
Two different games. Apples to oranges. While one MMO has a DPS class standing there getting healed by a healer and dishing out constant dmg, the other has a class doding, dealing out dmg, self healing, supporting group with control moves and ressurections.
No dmg meter will give you a real look into how well each player played. It only shows a fraction of what each player contributed.
"Will there be built in statistical means of tracking character progress apart from character level, like overall gear level or damage meters or publicly viewable achievements that show dungeon experience?
I’m not sure we want to include damage meters or things like that. I think they maybe tend to focus on the wrong things with everybody concerned about min/maxing things. There are lots of things you just can’t measure, like the DPS somebody is doing, are they helping towns players get back up and that sort of thing. We want to avoid DPS meters.
We have an achievement system that you can gain titles with and a lot of your different types of tough dungeons have very unique visual rewards. It’s not that they are statistically better than the other stuff you can get in the game, it’s just the only way to get a particular set of armours to finish the dungeons several times in explorable mode.
A lot of times you can tell what a person likes to do based on how they look and what titles they are displaying"
Maybe the devs word will explain it better to you guys
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
I really can't imagine what people are thinking in regards to Guild Wars 2, what are they imagining? I can't help but think that some people are hoping it's going to be like creepsville says, and that some are thinking they'll be standing around doing damage whilst being healed and that's the entirety of the game. Well, that's the entirety of some past MMORPG titles, sure, but there's so much more to Guild Wars 2.
It really makes me wonder if anyone who's asking for this has watched any of the gameplay videos at all. This is what bothers me with this and the healer threads, that people are having these delusions of grandeur, fuelled by refusing to watch those videos and hoping for it anyway. GW2 isn't the sort of game that fits healers, damage metres, or many other tropes that fit both WoW and Guild Wars 1. It's a completely different beast.
You won't convince some people until it's out though, that's the shame of it, and we're probably going to have the sorts of people in this thread and the healer one who're refusing to accept what sort of game this is trolling around the game once it's released. This is why we can't have nice things. People can't break their damned programming and accept that a game is providing its own experience, something new, rather than what they've played a million times before. It's not the same. And I don't use this term much, but really... damn sheeple.
i just wish that instead of people trying to force what they want GW2 to be on GW2, they'd investigate what GW2 is. They'll find that the actual game promised is a far, far more intriguing, promising, delectable, and exciting prospect than WoW 2.0 could ever be. Of course, we'll never fully get past this problem because of how Blizzrard tend to hire people Zynga-style to condition people into thinking that a game MUST be developed their way.
I can see me being able to pick out the people who can't break their programming instantly in GW2.
Everyday Gamer: Gets out there and explores.
Wow Gamer: "where i find quest npc ???"
Everyday Gamer: Rolls with the mechanics of the game - such as being diversified.
WoW Gamer: "where u find healer class gaiz ? lol"
Everyday Gamer: Values being able to play well and tactically, and thus does well in dynamic events by setting things up and using their intellect to figure ou what's going on and properly directing their attention there.
WoW Gamer: "lulz ur not playing right !!! u need 2 kill these 50 centaur but ur dmg output is so weak lol ! why u collectin that stuff ? why u attakin those mobs ? lol idiot"
Everyday Gamer: Dives straight into dynamic events.
WoW Gamer: "lookin 4 raid group for shattrer"
Everyday Gamer: Runs around having fun, teleporting and sheathing their weapons to sprint as necessary.
WoW Gamer: "where u find mount dealer ???"
I will see this, I will see people thinking that grinding is the only important thing, I will see people just not understanding Guild Wars 2, and I will sigh. If there's anything that these recent threads have proved, it's that it'll take a while to show people that an MMORPG can be a different sort of beast to the one that Blizzard creates. I don't envy ArenaNet in trying to teach these people this with the tutorial. They'll need a tutorial on the bloody profession select screen as to why there's noo obvious 'healer' class. @_@
But sorry, yeah, I find this frustrating. If everyone got this game, as some of you clearly do, then no one would be asking for healers, or mounts, or damage metres, all of which fit WoW but are redundant here.
I should probably start another thread for this, but all the people who are against damage meters (which I get), are you fine with log parsers or are you against those too?
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
I should probably start another thread for this, but all the people who are against damage meters (which I get), are you fine with log parsers or are you against those too?
I already said: yes to parsers, no to damage meters. If a player isnt capable of installing a parser then he probably wont be smart enough to keep it to himself.
I like how confusing perception can be, and how people can have different ideas about what builds are best. When damage is too easy to parse, it becomes too clear what works best, and then everyone who's paying any attention at all ends up being the same.
I don't mind being a bit gimped, as long as it's not totally obvious
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
I should probably start another thread for this, but all the people who are against damage meters (which I get), are you fine with log parsers or are you against those too?
You love dmg meters thats ok but most people here just dont. I used them in many games but I'd like to see GW 2 without em. It will be more fun and it will take more skill to know where and who attack. Or it could be done even by different way, for ex. if you are under 15% of HP you got cripple, or you have lower dmg, or something like that, or oposite, you are warrior so you have some kind of visible buff - it would depend on class. But I think it will be damager meters yes or no, probably it will be your choice.
Played: Lineage 2,Guild Wars 1 and 2, Age of Conan, Ragnarok Online, LOTRO, World of Warcraft, League of Legends, EvE online Tried: KAL Online, Face of Mankind, ROSE online Playing: CS:GO
Damage meters would be completely pointless in GW2, just as they would have been in GW. Why? In a nutshell, simply because any build constructed purely for dealing damage is already fail. That's just not how GW (and soon, GW2) are designed. Who cares if you're dealing more damage then the next guy if his support abilities are contributing more? And how exactly are you going to measure the effectiveness of the myriads of types of support a player can provide?
Or to put it another way, if a damage meter were to be useful in GW2 in *any* way, then the game won't be a true successor to GW and will probably fail.
I honestly feel like I'm talking to a wall here (not you, everybody). I'm sorry that damage meters have so many negative connotations for people that you'd rather everybody wander around blindly than have a way to gauge their effectiveness.
There is going to be content in this game that is going to be harder than others. A damage meter against a target dummy is going to be useless at gauging effectiveness in those kinds of encounters. But what a log parser would allow people to do is to gauge practical effectiveness. In the midst of all the dodging and control and support and whatnot, you still need to actually damage your target. Think of encounters in WoW like the Iron Council or Hodir where you have to take advantage of ground effects to boost your output, or even something like Sapphiron. How quickly can you get back into doing damage after hiding from the blast? Those things will be reflected. Even support abilities. How many times did someone put boons on others. How much of their regeneration they provided was overhealing? How often did a mob wander into that trap? How often did the ranger's arrows get the fire damage buff? Is there something the mage or ranger could have done differently to increase the frequency?
If someone uses a tool to say "Soandso is great because his numbers are great" then that person is badly interpreting the results of the tool. I can't help that. I'm sorry it happens. Properly used, they're a huge asset.
There isn't one built into the game. What you linked to is a target dummy that tells you how much damage you were doing. This is a fine tool, because it's something that #1 lets you see how much damage you're doing, and #2 how to improve the damage you do without sacrificing too much on the non-damage portions of your build. The difference between this tool and a DPS meter is astronomical. The purposes of the two things are so different I can't even come up with a good analogy to explain it.
Everything else that needs to be said to explain why a DPS meter has no place in a GW game has already been said, either by myself or someone else. And I see no need to keep repeating the same things just because someone didn't bother reading them carefully enough the first time.
Comments
Not even goin to vote as I think this is a retarded poll as many are completely against Dmg meters. I'm pretty sure everyone learned for WoW how GS, dmg meters, and to a degree achievments can eat away at a community.
It's called parsers....
There should be enough allowance of 3rd party, out of game dmg meter quivilents but nothing in game
I say No because GW2 cannot utilize damage meters at all. It is just impossible due to the dodgy/blocky fighting system. That would be like trying to find the DPS of a character from a fighting game, it's just not going to happen with random movements taken into account. If this game was "tank and spank" like WoW, then I could see it being possible, but it's not even close to that.
It is merely impossible to accurately measure that statistic in these conditions. There are too many interfering variables that would come into play. Sorry, no DPS meters for you.
You CAN however, boast about your highest spike damage or boast about how you took on 20 mobs and didn't lose even 1HP. But those are just boasts.
No to damage meters. Yes to logging and parsers.
if you can't aim in the right direction, the button mashing wouldn't make a different in DPS, you keep using other games that has a different combat mechanics to GW2 to support your argument, WoW doesn't have arrows that shoot straight, and GW2 doesn't have auto-tracking fireball. This thread is about the implementation of damage meters in GW2, not damage meters in general. For other games it might be great, but damage meters only shows half (or less than half) of the story with dodging and aiming ingame mechanics, and that simply isn't worth the negativity it brings to games.
PS: so are you talking about damage meters or log parsers, as far I know, they are very different things.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
I think they a Damage Meter should be available for those that want to use one.
Oberon
IMO people get too wraped up in "HOW BEASTLY" their dps is..if your playing a dps class..then yur spitting out dps..the last thing they need is to add a assload of add-ons to this game..next people will be wanting gearscores and quest/crafting/pvp helpers witch in the end i think IMO ruined Wow
what ever happened to the joy of finding a group no matter what they had or if they were with your guild or even if they didnt even know em and trying their damdest to win fights..everything comes so instant for everyone in mmo's nowa days ..no1 wants to work for what they get
1 thing that would make this game totally stand out..no books / guides / add-ons ..get out there and find stuff on your own! old eq style ...but this day and age theres a web-site for everything id highly doubt it could work..but i love playing like that
I only quoted that one part because in that post it was the only part I wanted to focus on. I followed that up with another reply that was more general in scope.
And for the record I would absolutely love the most incredibly detailed log parser ever to exist. I was actually thinking I would start another thread "Log parsers: yes or no" because it seems like not everybody does get the difference between them. I'm absolutely fine with having no damage meter for the reasons people give (too easy to misrepresent, cluttered UI, causing a focus on numbers and not practical effectiveness).
As far as damage meters (or parsers) being less effective at telling a story in GW2 than WoW, I totally disagree. In GW2 there are ground effects, there is implied targeting, dodging, etc. But on some level, there's damage dealt. Or, since the encounter has the same length for everybody, there's damage per second. It is a measure of effectiveness. Of course its results need to be taken with a grain of salt and not just blindly adhered to, but there is information there. Like I keep saying, it's a tool. It might let you see the difference between the elementalist who just runs for their life when they get aggro and the one that casts while moving in between dodges. Or the guy who is using his more efficient attacks more often. Obviously when someone adopts a control or support role or shifts to one mid combat, you shouldn't chastise them for not putting up the numbers, just as you'd never yell at a WoW tank or healer for their DPS numbers. And again, I'm not pro-damage meter for a lot of these reasons.
What I am for is log parsers, something that will let you analyze everything about an encounter after the fact. How much damage did that guy take. How many times did he dodge? What was the curve of his damage like over time (was he casting between dodges)? How many times did the warrior have to use his snare? Did the trait that causes bleeding cause a significant amount of damage? How useful was that party regeneration boon (was it wasted on everybody but one guy)?
Those are the kind of questions that incredibly detailed log parsing can answer for you, ones that are truly helpful not just for increasing damage, but playing better in general.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
With that, I have no problem whatsoever, in fact, a great ideea, spawned by a beautiful mind
Just keep the stats personal, instead of making them quasi-public, to stop idiots telling you what to do and how to fight.
Damage meters: the only satisfaction (in terms of competition) one can get when not PvPing. The same applies even in PvP circumstances when no skill or teamplay play a factor in winning, just gear or rating. Personaly i dont give a crap if GW2 has dmg meters or not, just give us -for once- a gameplay comparable to that of DotA where even a handicapped person can play as long as they are focused, have good communication with the team and basicaly improve themselves in terms of how good they play instead of a virtual toon. Quality & Innovation in terms of gameplay is above all.
Pure dps just doesn't fit a fps like combat system (even if in GW2 it is not a pure fps like system, it is heavily tweaked system).
If they implement one, and why not? But if they do it must be a lot more complicated and should at least get the damage taken into the formula to make it interesting since in fps dodging damage is as important as dealing some. In tab targeting system you cannot dodge so pure dps is good enough. Also the time scale in dps is just too short, second is too short for a fps system, it should be 30second laps or 1minute since movement is a good deal of your fighting success.
All in one it seam a bit too complicated to implement such a thing for what it give, but it could be interesting.
Damage meters are the stupidiest thing ever. After invisible walls.
An honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)
@bletsonius
I think the problem is is that ArenaNet want to remove all competition from PvE, and I support that. There is no score in dynamic events, if you participate then you get the same as everyone else, there is no resource node-stealing because resource nodes are instanced to the player, you can't objective steal, you can't loot grab, you can't elite steal, they've gone out of their way to stress that this is a game which isn't for competition or griefing, it's a game where the players are supposed to unite againist the NPC forces and get their competition from that.
Now a lot of PvE players prefer that, and I know I enjoy that, and there's been a noticeable shift in the market towards that sort of mindset, not with the PvP or competition-happy minority, but with the vast majority it's true. For the vast majority of people, they have more fun working together in a PvE game than they do working against each other in competition. Competition is becoming less and less an element at the forefront of gaming, except for in PvP, of coursre.
The notion behind Guild Wars 2 is that 'if you want competition, go do some PvP,' and that's precisely why I can't see there being a damage metre there, and why I don't think that one could ever fit. And again, I think that damage metres are just UI cancer that detract from the experience that they're trying to provide. Not to mention that, as others have pointed out, in a game which is more than 1234141231234132-WoW you won't get a real image of what's going on from a damage metre, because they can't give you a full picture on how tactically a player plays, so any information they do give you is bunk, your numbers will be worthless if you're not as tactical as the next guy.
@Requiamer
But even then it doesn't give a complete picture.
Are htey using profession combos and working with other people to increase their damage?
Are they playing tactically and watching the field to do the amount of damage they should be?
Are they paying attention to the field and how it changes, attacking the most important targets?
How well are they placing ground effects to damage an important group of foes?
Were they the group responsible for just setting up those three cannons that are doing massive damage to the Shatterer?
Versus those five points, numbers mean nothing, a damage metre is meaningless unless it can factor in those things. But here's the problem: It can't.
Fact: For those reasons alone, a damage metre can't work. The damage metre was spawned out of the hellhole that is WoW, and WoW doesn't have any of the above four mentioned things, they're different games. In WoW a single person's damage is more important than how tactically they play on the field, in GW2 it isn't.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, adding a damage metre to GW2 would be like addinga a damage metre to a tactical group shooter like SWAT IV. What point would that serve? None.
Conclusion: A damage metre is completely pointless in Guild Wars 2. Why? Guild Wars 2 is not WoW or GW1. There are so many variables on the field that a damage metre would make worthless people whose only contribution is large damage numbers an over-inflated ego. That's not what this game is about. Not even remotely.
I prefer being able to see numbers. I've noticed the only people who don't like meters of any sort, are those that don't like being criticized on their gameplay. If you're worried that meters wouldn't be able to accurately measure ones performance you're probably right, but that's where communication comes in handy.
Even if it's just measuring personal damage like in the zaishen testing area, it would be enough for me. There always needs be a way to measure and improve upon previous performance, unfortunately for most games it involves recording yourself and reviewing footage, which is huge waste of time.
@moosecatlol
Sigh.
You just don't get it.
I'll spell it out (and read my above post again): Guild Wars 2 is not about single unit damage. The damage that you put out as a single player is completely meaningless, if you judge yourself based on that, you're worthless.
Your tactics are the most important thing in Guild Wars 2. Does a damage metre account for people using environmental weapons that they set up but act as their own entity? No. Does it account for tactics on the field? No. Does it account for players using tactics to end the fight more quickly by strategically taking out the correct targets? No.
It just gives tweens an ego boost by making them think they're doing really well because of numbers, but Guild Wars 2 is not about numbers. WoW is about yer bloody numbers, and you need to get your brain out of that gutter and stop comparing GW2 to WoW. You need to instead compare it to something like a group tactical combat game.
Now, again, what purpose would a damage metre have in something like SWAT IV? If someone can answer that, then I'm listening, but there is no answer to that. A damage metre would be idiotic in SWAT IV.
Guild Wars 2 is not about damage numbers, there are so many other components that play part just like Dream_Chaser said that it would be impossible to distinguish a good player from a bad player with damage numbers alone. So while some games fit or rather need to have damage meters, in Guild Wars 2 it simply won't work.
What I will add is that maximising you damage and thus not playing tactically could actually make you a hindrance and an annoyance on the battlefield. Whilst you're trying to build up your L33T numbers, you're ignoring healing people, supporting people, resurrecting people, and working with other people on the field. It's just you, your target, and your bloody numbers.
This is exactly why people need to stop thinking like this, because it will make them fail for everyone in Guild Wars 2. If you're in a dynamic event and you're doing nothing more than number-fapping, then you're not playing tactically. You're not helping to set up cannons, you're ignoring strategic approaches to combat, you're not going for the right mobs, you're not interacting with things and helping to build/set up stuff, you're just... there. And kind of worthless. You're making the dynamic event more difficult whilst not actually really contributing everything.
How are L33T DPS numbers going to put out fires on that farm, eh? I'd like to see someone try that!
(Grammatical error.)
Two different games. Apples to oranges. While one MMO has a DPS class standing there getting healed by a healer and dishing out constant dmg, the other has a class doding, dealing out dmg, self healing, supporting group with control moves and ressurections.
No dmg meter will give you a real look into how well each player played. It only shows a fraction of what each player contributed.
Here you go
http://guildwars.incgamers.com/blog/comments/guild-wars-2-interview-part-1
"Will there be built in statistical means of tracking character progress apart from character level, like overall gear level or damage meters or publicly viewable achievements that show dungeon experience?
I’m not sure we want to include damage meters or things like that. I think they maybe tend to focus on the wrong things with everybody concerned about min/maxing things. There are lots of things you just can’t measure, like the DPS somebody is doing, are they helping towns players get back up and that sort of thing. We want to avoid DPS meters.
We have an achievement system that you can gain titles with and a lot of your different types of tough dungeons have very unique visual rewards. It’s not that they are statistically better than the other stuff you can get in the game, it’s just the only way to get a particular set of armours to finish the dungeons several times in explorable mode.
A lot of times you can tell what a person likes to do based on how they look and what titles they are displaying"
Maybe the devs word will explain it better to you guys
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
Thanks for that xKingdomx.
I really can't imagine what people are thinking in regards to Guild Wars 2, what are they imagining? I can't help but think that some people are hoping it's going to be like creepsville says, and that some are thinking they'll be standing around doing damage whilst being healed and that's the entirety of the game. Well, that's the entirety of some past MMORPG titles, sure, but there's so much more to Guild Wars 2.
It really makes me wonder if anyone who's asking for this has watched any of the gameplay videos at all. This is what bothers me with this and the healer threads, that people are having these delusions of grandeur, fuelled by refusing to watch those videos and hoping for it anyway. GW2 isn't the sort of game that fits healers, damage metres, or many other tropes that fit both WoW and Guild Wars 1. It's a completely different beast.
You won't convince some people until it's out though, that's the shame of it, and we're probably going to have the sorts of people in this thread and the healer one who're refusing to accept what sort of game this is trolling around the game once it's released. This is why we can't have nice things. People can't break their damned programming and accept that a game is providing its own experience, something new, rather than what they've played a million times before. It's not the same. And I don't use this term much, but really... damn sheeple.
i just wish that instead of people trying to force what they want GW2 to be on GW2, they'd investigate what GW2 is. They'll find that the actual game promised is a far, far more intriguing, promising, delectable, and exciting prospect than WoW 2.0 could ever be. Of course, we'll never fully get past this problem because of how Blizzrard tend to hire people Zynga-style to condition people into thinking that a game MUST be developed their way.
I can see me being able to pick out the people who can't break their programming instantly in GW2.
Everyday Gamer: Gets out there and explores.
Wow Gamer: "where i find quest npc ???"
Everyday Gamer: Rolls with the mechanics of the game - such as being diversified.
WoW Gamer: "where u find healer class gaiz ? lol"
Everyday Gamer: Values being able to play well and tactically, and thus does well in dynamic events by setting things up and using their intellect to figure ou what's going on and properly directing their attention there.
WoW Gamer: "lulz ur not playing right !!! u need 2 kill these 50 centaur but ur dmg output is so weak lol ! why u collectin that stuff ? why u attakin those mobs ? lol idiot"
Everyday Gamer: Dives straight into dynamic events.
WoW Gamer: "lookin 4 raid group for shattrer"
Everyday Gamer: Runs around having fun, teleporting and sheathing their weapons to sprint as necessary.
WoW Gamer: "where u find mount dealer ???"
I will see this, I will see people thinking that grinding is the only important thing, I will see people just not understanding Guild Wars 2, and I will sigh. If there's anything that these recent threads have proved, it's that it'll take a while to show people that an MMORPG can be a different sort of beast to the one that Blizzard creates. I don't envy ArenaNet in trying to teach these people this with the tutorial. They'll need a tutorial on the bloody profession select screen as to why there's noo obvious 'healer' class. @_@
But sorry, yeah, I find this frustrating. If everyone got this game, as some of you clearly do, then no one would be asking for healers, or mounts, or damage metres, all of which fit WoW but are redundant here.
I should probably start another thread for this, but all the people who are against damage meters (which I get), are you fine with log parsers or are you against those too?
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
I already said: yes to parsers, no to damage meters. If a player isnt capable of installing a parser then he probably wont be smart enough to keep it to himself.
I like how confusing perception can be, and how people can have different ideas about what builds are best. When damage is too easy to parse, it becomes too clear what works best, and then everyone who's paying any attention at all ends up being the same.
I don't mind being a bit gimped, as long as it's not totally obvious
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
You love dmg meters thats ok but most people here just dont. I used them in many games but I'd like to see GW 2 without em. It will be more fun and it will take more skill to know where and who attack. Or it could be done even by different way, for ex. if you are under 15% of HP you got cripple, or you have lower dmg, or something like that, or oposite, you are warrior so you have some kind of visible buff - it would depend on class. But I think it will be damager meters yes or no, probably it will be your choice.
Played: Lineage 2,Guild Wars 1 and 2, Age of Conan, Ragnarok Online, LOTRO, World of Warcraft, League of Legends, EvE online
Tried: KAL Online, Face of Mankind, ROSE online
Playing: CS:GO
There isn't one built into the game. What you linked to is a target dummy that tells you how much damage you were doing. This is a fine tool, because it's something that #1 lets you see how much damage you're doing, and #2 how to improve the damage you do without sacrificing too much on the non-damage portions of your build. The difference between this tool and a DPS meter is astronomical. The purposes of the two things are so different I can't even come up with a good analogy to explain it.
Everything else that needs to be said to explain why a DPS meter has no place in a GW game has already been said, either by myself or someone else. And I see no need to keep repeating the same things just because someone didn't bother reading them carefully enough the first time.
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