Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
The game begins at end game? What garbage. It's the journey, not the destination.
markyturnip
Member UncommonPosts: 837
I find it extraordinary that the concept 'MMOs only begin at end game' has gained such wide traction. It is nonsense of the first order.
A game begins at the beginning, and ends when the content runs out. In the case of most new games, that roughly coincides with reaching max level. In the recent game Rift, for example, the player has seen pretty much all there is to see (bar a raid or two) by level 50, and a couple of weeks beyond level cap there really is very little new on offer.
So why this concept of end game, and the rush to it? It makes no sense to me.
The joy of a great game is in the hero's journey. The call to adventure. The discovery of new people and places. The encounter of obstacles to progress, the cooperation - or solo heroics - required to overcome them. The evolution of the character. etc
End game was designed so that people who enjoyed that journey enough could stick around for a while longer and, enjoy a couple more last epic adventures with the friends they made on the way.
Over time, players decided they enjoyed this phase so much, they charged to endgame without spending any time on the journey.
Developers saw this behavior and responded, reducing the time and scope of the journey.
And thus we reach this modern travesty of MMO game design, in which an entire world is ignored, and players sit in a glorified lobby waiting for a dungeon to pop which they have already played a dozen times.
It is bizarre. Its making OCD the centerpiece of a game.
So, a plea to developers everywhere.
Screw the 'endgame'. It's a distraction.
What new games need is a journey.
Comments
http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/feature/5239/Player-Perspectives-This-is-Endgame-My-Friend.html
You might want to cast your eyes over the recent article linked above and it's many comments.
Exactly how I feel mate, exactly.
Agreed. What's further nonsense is that many of the people who beleive that (I'd wager that it's MOST of the people that believe that) also have no problem paying each month on the road there. It's the flagellate mentality carried over from the masochistic EQers - the whole 'pay your dues' thing.
Whatever level the game starts at is the leve I want to start paying at and not really any time sooner.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I've played a few games where leveling took a while and I think one of the issues of a journey game vs a destination game is obvious: People without a significant amount of hours they can dedicate to the game ("people with jobs+families") will have trouble feeling like they're making any progress once th tutorial levels are over.
As these outnumber the players with a lot of time, this is what the game companies develop for. Instant gratification.
In short, it matters very little what we write on these forums. We are the minority. The majority is neither posting or has the time to post. Their game hours go to the game and not forums, wiki sites, etc.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
News FLASH: The world DOSE evolve around customers. That is why all game companies are busineses.
There are MORE people without significant time for playing .. then those who can/want to play MMOs like a job. Developers have a choice of a small audience, or a big one. You know where the chips fall.
MMOs are entertainment products. The idea that putting a significant time commitment as a condition to truly enjoy the game is just ludicrous, and thankfuly developers no longer buy into that.
Your post is about people throwing a tantrum because they're deluded into thinking games should be made for their playstyle, correct?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
to the op, you are talking about themepark mmorgs. The issue is that some mmorgs developers & players believe a game has to require little time effort to be enjoyable.. This means bread-crumb questing, ultra fast levelling. When you do that you make the process and journey meaningless. If the journey is meaningless all that is left is the end destination ie end-game. This gets even worse with expansions, the 'journey' when going through the expansion is even shorter. In saying this, many people cry and complain about games being too time consuming without understanding the impact of their impatience.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
People confuse the time spent in the 'meta-game' with 'in-game'. If you take the 'meta-game' out then the game can be enjoyable. The biggest problem is that an MMO is all about the people you play with and the basic mechanics are fairly boring.
Since 'force grouping' has so many other issues you only get to force group your playerbase at max level which seems to many players that 'the game begins at end game'.
End game is a journey too. You progress your char through gear/reputation etc. Just cause the number next to your char doesn't go up (levels) doesn't mean your char isn't progressing.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Well heres the thing, it should not be an only end game mmo, but the so called "journey" is not the main point of mmo's like the op suggests, your not suppose to reach endgame play for a little bit and be done. It should be both. Devs should focus on making both very enjoyable and rich in quality. Your character should have an adventure turning him into a "hero" so to speak where you reach end game and continue the journey.
The entire game should be quality fun. And an mmo should always be an evolving game that doesn't end.
But the problem is, players don't like leveling becaus devs make it a unfun grind most of the time, which players do not enjoy. Its as simple as that. They don't enjoy it and don't wnat to spend time doing something they don't enjoy. So in response, devs make it shorter/easier instead of making it fun because that is a easy bandaid fix. Whats the result? players hate it more, and end game becomes the focus.
I think guild wars 2 will be able to fix this. Becuase anet is trying to make the entire game the focus point, from beginning to end.
You can't be serious with this post. What a joke. I have a better news flash. The world does not revolve around you. Instead of insulting some random guy and trying to act all superior, perhaps you should realise that devs develop what people want. And the majority of people do not want a long and boring grind to end game.
It has nothing to do with mcdonalds, so get off your high horse because this guy is right. Why in the world would people who don't have a lot of time want to spend that time grinding or playing an unfun leveling process? If devs made the leveling fun and enjoyable it would be a different story, but they don't. If you think it is enjoyable,thats great, but your in the minority.
If players thought tha leveling was fun, do you think they would rush through it? Probably not.
If you went to six flags and were told the path you must follow, the order of the rides to take, where you can go and when, forcing you to ride with strangers, pretty much controled every aspect of your time in the park. But after you did it all, then you could go back and ride what you want.
It wouldnt be fun either. People would rush through the first time to get it over with so they can have some fun.
Now repeat that 500 times over a decade with it only getting worse each time.
Bad analogy?
That's the problem.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Most MMOs are designed to target 13 year olds...? At that age, it's all about geting l33t fast and PWN. The devs know this. The reason WoW got "dumbed down" is because WoW apepaled to adults as well. So even mom and dad started to play. But anyways, the maturity of most 13yo kids are not the same as a 40yo adult. This is the reason why I don't bother with WoW anymore. Instead I went to AoC and had fun for awhile until I reached the point of raiding which I don't like, then quit. The community in AoC was much much better than WoW. Too bad that SW:TOR will be like WoW. Also tried Rift and you have the same mentality.
wow Interesting concept. I didnt think of it that way
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Yet the core issue is ignored op, the issue is not that you reach max lvl fast, the issue is the existence of levels and the result that monsters grow so weak that devs cant let them give you good loot which makes the region boring.
If you would forget about levels and let players unlock regions through other means of progress unexplored regions could remain interesting even for veteran characters
Pi*1337/100 = 42
Yeap. When you really look at it, 'Spreadsheet Online' is a more fitting nickname for the slew of number-chasing gear-dependent MMOs than it is for EVE,
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Games should be fun the whole way through, regardless of what you're doing or your aim. A successful game will be one that caters to the masses and by that i mean all groups of people instead of the largest ones. As gamers you should all know the typical gamer goes through different stages in their gaming life, even if that lifespan is until the day they die - these stages like PvE stage then moving onto PvP frenzy then to Merchanting etcetera are not fixed and could vary from one to another, therefore in order to keep a customer you have to provide content that could solve every need.
Show me a game that does that or had previously done so at a critical time in their production, and i'll show you a successful game with open-minded developers that are enjoying the cash they are raking in.
But now, the market is beginning to evolve again in terms of what gamers are looking for and developers are responding making supposedly revolutionary games - it will be the end of MMOs if they don't follow through. We got to stop these cookie cutters and hand-holding gaming mentalities, games need to fun, diverse and dynamic. I need to feel threatened, scared or even like i've truely triumphed in a battle - unfortunately i've only felt these feelings when i was young and could easily be swayed by the most minimal of visual FX.
I'll just wait patiently for Guild Wars 2. That seems to disregard the whole notion of end-game is the best mindset; that ironically seems to be the most common phrase WoW players tend to use.
War does not determine who is right, but who is left.
This thread, and then this...
What a coincidence.
It's also the reason I cant get alot of friends to play MMO's. Not only is it utterly rediculous, it's the entire game. Now pile on a million restrictions like BOP items ect... you should see the look on their faces. It's like Im describing torture rather than entertainment.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
No, I agree, I am sure the majority of people want an interesting and fun journey to their 'end game'
This rush to end game (what a stupid term tbh) is just a symptom of bad design. I don't even blame the end gamers. If the journey was good they would want to take longer to enjoy it.
The problem is that, take out community, the human element, these games are actually pretty crap, especially when compared with the experience a single player RPG gives. (notice how no one plays a single player RPG for the 'end game'?).
(Ofc, take into account that 90% of the people that play them are antisocial rude belligerent dicks it makes you wonder about it all, but thats another thread I guess.)
So, there we have it, the answer to the thread. People rush to end game because these games are pretty crap because of their fundemental base design. It just isnt a good one... it just isnt 'fun'. So people rush to get through it and cheer when they get x2 XP or whatever to make it even faster.
Hopefully a MMORPG will be here soon that isnt all this. When that happens maybe people will enjoy it from the start.
(If you want to play a game for the journey, imo single player RPGs give a much better one... Hell, I would say PnP RPGs beat them all)
The journey of any hero is a story, whether one can participate in that story or not. The bottom line is that many stories in MMO's just aren't that interesting. The personalities met in an MMO along the way tend to be more interesting than a graphical character...to a certain degree. In addition, many are just rushing to end the journey portion of the story for top level items and abilities. In this circumstance, personality is not often seen. The end result is a dry story, a purposeless journey, and in a world with less personality. Every good story has a beginning AND an end. MMO's do not end from a story sense. The end of the story comes when a player quits the game....and even then there is no fanfare about a player leaving the world, no celebration, no mourning...no immediately noticeable effect. One character just does not matter that much. Doesn't sound like a hero to me.
That said, its not surprising some MMO's are moving to more social settings and portable devices. At the end of the day, its just a fantasy setting to hang out with your friends, meet new people, and for some, go "uber nerd".
When I was growing up, we didn't have MMO's. There were only single player RPG's that told a story...a story about your hero. The purpose was to get a player involved in the story and experience the world through your hero's eyes. It didn't matter if you got through the story in 20 or 60 hours. The journey in a typical MMO today is just piss-poor in comparison to other forms of story-telling.
I agree with the sentiments of the OP and the title of this thread. End game is often a repetitive grind that gets stale fast. I prefer continued character progression,exploration and story tied with action/adventure and not the grind-for-gear mentality of the endgame.
Unfortunatley for many MMO's currently the journey is over far too quickly and the end game grind begins. The journey itself is often lackluster with boring, cookie cutter adventures (quests) and generally uninteresting content.
Take Rift for example, in the beta and the first couple weeks of the game I was really enjoying the soul/class system, the wold puzzles, exploring and the rifts and monster invasion mechanics. The artifact collecting was even a bit fun, although I wish those would have been less simple collectables and have more lore associated with them. But my enjoyment of Rift began to wane in a few weeks and is largely gone at this point. The interesting and uniques aspects of the game are squandered on the overall generic and cookie cutter game design with things like boring quest design, lackluster PvP and only half interesting world design. The developers of Rift seemed to spend too much time focusing on competing with WoW by copying Wow, when they should have been focused on complementing thwe unique gameplay elements with a more unique core design. Rift's character development/soul system is semi-sandbox in it's design, but them overall gameplay is 100% themepark. If Rift had more sandbox/open world qualities to it's world and core game design I cn't help but think it would have come across as a much better game for it.
I went back to STO recently after having quit playing it not long after it's release and I am surprised to find that I am enjoying it much more this time around. The quest/mission design has improved a lot since the game's release, for the first time in awhile I find myself actually paying attention to quest dialogue and even engaging in some real mental work to complete quest tasks here and there.
To me the concept of the endgame, really isn't "The End".
From the hero's perspective, it would signify a new chapter of challenges, usually of epic proportions.
The storyline, fictional universe and flavor of the MMO are very heavy influences in determining the nature of it's endgame. And of course, if it is epic, it should never be made easy for the character, or easy for the character to attain epic status.
Whenever you are really bored and don't wanna play an MMO game, go to: http://librivox.org/
Hey hey hey heeeeeeeeeeeyyyyy.......
As much as I agree with the sentiment in the recent crop of similar posts, I think I've come across a pattern. Questing and leveling used to take a long long time. Players started associating that with a grind, or a second job and complained. So the developers streamlined the process and made it more convenient. Now players are complaining that the end-game grind is too long or too tedious. Pretty soon you will not even have to play the games anymore. Just pay your money and watch it do it's stuff. If you're lucky they might still let you choose which gear you get, unless that also becomes too tedious or time consuming.
Hehe. Sad but true.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
That's a really good point, Palebane. It seems that in some ways the issue of quests being seen as long and boring was met with the decision to make them shorter, which just creates more of them and turns a small set of long boring quests into endless short boring quests. It's like those beetles that fly into walls constantly. Instead of developing better navigation or flying skill they just developed harder shells.
Had the parttern been to make quests more engaging and offer 'save points' of sorts for the time-limited group, questing probably would have gone in a more intereting direction, Now, let me clartify that 'save points' thing.
My example would be Scarlet Monastary where the content is broken into three or four sections (it's been a while since I ran it) so that groups or individuals who don't have a three hour block of time can still experience the entire quest just broken into smaller pieces.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre