It's not just about differentiating between sandbox and theme park. Among all "theme park" MMOs there can be many characteristics that vary. That's the mistake most people make when tossing out the broad category terms "sandbox" and "theme park;" they ignore dozens of other features within those categories that may differ.
The problem with themepark games is there is nothing to do in them once the content is done.
Just try to do everything you can do in Vanguard in a single lifetime, then come back and complain...
It's not just about differentiating between sandbox and theme park. Among all "theme park" MMOs there can be many characteristics that vary. That's the mistake most people make when tossing out the broad category terms "sandbox" and "theme park;" they ignore dozens of other features within those categories that may differ.
The problem with themepark games is there is nothing to do in them once the content is done.
Just try to do everything you can do in Vanguard in a single lifetime, then come back and complain...
EQ2 and WoW launched pretty much close at the same time. so imho these 2 games defined the modern-MMO or theme park indepently. they tried to avoid all the mistakes, they felt have been done in the precedessors like UO, EQ1 and others. not all pure sandboxes of course. so they introduced:
- extreme high linearity focused on quests and story
- extreme refining and predictability of encounters
- extreme accessability, casual friendlyness and soloability (later)
- less need for tactical planning in combats and strategic planning in character development at all
- fast-paced action-oriented combat (at least they started with that introducing shorter lasting trash-fights and skills and much less HP of trash-mobs)
- conflict free PVE (e.g. by avoiding competition in open dungeons via massive instancing, and faster respawn rates in general)
at least they started more or less with these 6 nails into the coffin of the classic MMO. these paradigms define the theme-park for me. some did even extend one or more of these design-paradigms, e.g laughable fast respawn rates, meaningless skillsets for everone and auto-entertainment per button. so you may call them all WoW/EQ2 clones, if they follow this path. regardless what nice additional features and functions or classes or whatever invention other games introduced later, as long as they dont change the basic paradigms it is valid to call them a clone.
therefor a game like SWTOR isnt an upcoming revolution for me. the hyped fourth pillar named story is nothing new. its an existing and defining element of the teme-park since years. Bioware will simply perfect the story-part of a theme-park also with full audio, additionally. this is just evolution, but not revolution. and it is still a theme-park.
GW2 might have the chance to at least change 1 of these unholy paradigms. if they replace questing by dynamic events mostly. that might become a revolution, but it depends, how this really impacts gameplay and immersion. the public-quests in WAR or the Rifts lately did not change that much of the theme-park feeling. mainly because introduced too inkonsequent and not getting rid of the mass of useless grindquests and linear questhubs.
ArcheAge might also become revolutionary. they seem to come from the sandbox-corner and could avoid more than one of the paradigms above, hopefully. The Secret world might use a similar approach.
so finally the approach of WoW and EQ2 was very honest. they tried to keep the best and avoid the mistakes. unfortunately they misinterpreted a lot of things, like we know today. for example: they thought that you can avoid grind with quests. and so they invented the questgrinder. grind has nothing to do with quests. it has something to do with meaningful, interesting, flexible and tactical challenging combat (which was not given at least for short-range-fighters in older games). and also with a meaningful character development and progression. just with a ton of quests, you mostly choke the game and replace one kind of grind with an other. just one example of a lot of mistakes they did, when they invented the paradigms of the modern MMO.
Different people mean different things when they use the terms themepark and sandbox. They are as convoluted as "mmorpg" itself is. This is why so many people say WoW clone because it is the poster child for a particular gameplay style.
It is much easier for people to say WoW clone than themepark because people know exactly what WoW is. Themepark can refer to any number of modern mmos and even quite a few older ones.
Yes there are quite a couple of people who are now set on "themepark = its a WoW clone". As stupid as that is. Even games which are clearly very different, like Vanguard or SWTOR, are getting called "WoW clone" for no good reason.
Unsurprisingly, these people complain that the market is "dominated by WoW clones". Well, yeah. Themepark MMOs have always been more successful than sandbox MMOs. People in general simply prefer getting a story told to having to perform mundane tasks to build a world of their own.
With this attitude, of course they arent going to be happy with the MMO market again, ever. Even 30 years from now, they will still be able to complain that "everywhere are WoW clones". So I would like to declare them a lost cause and just ignore their bitching around.
Despite your insulting attitude towards people like me, I am going to calmly explain things to you.
The term "WoW clone" is all about how the game is played. It's the same thing as "Themepark", but it should be easier to understand because so many players have played WoW. The fact that there are people like you who simply will not understand the term is a testament to the willfull desire of Themepark lovers to simply refuse to understand it's meaning.
It doesn't matter what else the game is about or has in it, it's the game play style.
What is that game play style? This:
Play level to level, zone to zone, through the game from start to finish.
This comes with zoned content, because that's how the game has to organize the game play according to the level to level game play.
Levels and gear are what is played for, it's the be-all-and-end-all of game play. This is the "hook", get the next level and get the gear to fit. Then do it all over again, repeatedly, until you run out of "content".
"End Game" is basically where you run out of the levelling content, and finish off your character with the gear to fit. It's usually dressed up better than the rest of the game, the ultimate MOB Boss design, but that isn't required to make it a WoW clone as it's just something they added.
Then you are finished. Start over. Do it again, with a different flavor.
This game play style is in almost all of the current games. WoW, EQ, Vanguard, LoTRO, DDO, etc.
It will be the same game play for SWTOR.
GW2 may be a slightly different animal, but also may not feel like a "world" in the same manner as DDO through instanced game play. I honestly don't understand how they'll pull off what they say they will do, in a massive multiplayer environment.
Comments
Just try to do everything you can do in Vanguard in a single lifetime, then come back and complain...
I don't think Vanguard is a Theme Park, right?
An honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)
EQ2 and WoW launched pretty much close at the same time. so imho these 2 games defined the modern-MMO or theme park indepently. they tried to avoid all the mistakes, they felt have been done in the precedessors like UO, EQ1 and others. not all pure sandboxes of course. so they introduced:
- extreme high linearity focused on quests and story
- extreme refining and predictability of encounters
- extreme accessability, casual friendlyness and soloability (later)
- less need for tactical planning in combats and strategic planning in character development at all
- fast-paced action-oriented combat (at least they started with that introducing shorter lasting trash-fights and skills and much less HP of trash-mobs)
- conflict free PVE (e.g. by avoiding competition in open dungeons via massive instancing, and faster respawn rates in general)
at least they started more or less with these 6 nails into the coffin of the classic MMO. these paradigms define the theme-park for me. some did even extend one or more of these design-paradigms, e.g laughable fast respawn rates, meaningless skillsets for everone and auto-entertainment per button. so you may call them all WoW/EQ2 clones, if they follow this path. regardless what nice additional features and functions or classes or whatever invention other games introduced later, as long as they dont change the basic paradigms it is valid to call them a clone.
therefor a game like SWTOR isnt an upcoming revolution for me. the hyped fourth pillar named story is nothing new. its an existing and defining element of the teme-park since years. Bioware will simply perfect the story-part of a theme-park also with full audio, additionally. this is just evolution, but not revolution. and it is still a theme-park.
GW2 might have the chance to at least change 1 of these unholy paradigms. if they replace questing by dynamic events mostly. that might become a revolution, but it depends, how this really impacts gameplay and immersion. the public-quests in WAR or the Rifts lately did not change that much of the theme-park feeling. mainly because introduced too inkonsequent and not getting rid of the mass of useless grindquests and linear questhubs.
ArcheAge might also become revolutionary. they seem to come from the sandbox-corner and could avoid more than one of the paradigms above, hopefully. The Secret world might use a similar approach.
so finally the approach of WoW and EQ2 was very honest. they tried to keep the best and avoid the mistakes. unfortunately they misinterpreted a lot of things, like we know today. for example: they thought that you can avoid grind with quests. and so they invented the questgrinder. grind has nothing to do with quests. it has something to do with meaningful, interesting, flexible and tactical challenging combat (which was not given at least for short-range-fighters in older games). and also with a meaningful character development and progression. just with a ton of quests, you mostly choke the game and replace one kind of grind with an other. just one example of a lot of mistakes they did, when they invented the paradigms of the modern MMO.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
Different people mean different things when they use the terms themepark and sandbox. They are as convoluted as "mmorpg" itself is. This is why so many people say WoW clone because it is the poster child for a particular gameplay style.
It is much easier for people to say WoW clone than themepark because people know exactly what WoW is. Themepark can refer to any number of modern mmos and even quite a few older ones.
Despite your insulting attitude towards people like me, I am going to calmly explain things to you.
The term "WoW clone" is all about how the game is played. It's the same thing as "Themepark", but it should be easier to understand because so many players have played WoW. The fact that there are people like you who simply will not understand the term is a testament to the willfull desire of Themepark lovers to simply refuse to understand it's meaning.
It doesn't matter what else the game is about or has in it, it's the game play style.
What is that game play style? This:
Play level to level, zone to zone, through the game from start to finish.
This comes with zoned content, because that's how the game has to organize the game play according to the level to level game play.
Levels and gear are what is played for, it's the be-all-and-end-all of game play. This is the "hook", get the next level and get the gear to fit. Then do it all over again, repeatedly, until you run out of "content".
"End Game" is basically where you run out of the levelling content, and finish off your character with the gear to fit. It's usually dressed up better than the rest of the game, the ultimate MOB Boss design, but that isn't required to make it a WoW clone as it's just something they added.
Then you are finished. Start over. Do it again, with a different flavor.
This game play style is in almost all of the current games. WoW, EQ, Vanguard, LoTRO, DDO, etc.
It will be the same game play for SWTOR.
GW2 may be a slightly different animal, but also may not feel like a "world" in the same manner as DDO through instanced game play. I honestly don't understand how they'll pull off what they say they will do, in a massive multiplayer environment.
Once upon a time....
This is an easy answer. No, there are themepark mmorpg's that are unlike WoW in so many ways.
Guild Wars 2. You must not be reading up on it?
1. No grind.
2. No subs.
3. Dynamic world with events that the player's ultimately decide how they end and the state of the region is.
4. No dedicated class for healing/dps/tanking.
5. Personal storyline for you to decide your own fate.
6. Personality system.
7. Environmental weapons.
8. The best music and art combined into one game. (I never liked WoW's art direction although the music is great)
9. An attribute system that finally makes you think.
10. Some serious lore behind it all.
Guild Wars 2!
same prodedure as every year? be careful, wait and see.
every year we complain here about MMOs and every year somebody says: "wait, the Messiahs is coming, look at these great features."
and the features are looking great and the community is waiting for the Messiahs.
and after every year, we finallyhave tried out these new features personally and we saw that nothing changed significantly.
the most announced Messiahs of 2011 are GW2, SWTOR, TERA, TSW and ArchAge ... just if they are really coming soon.
i would be more than happy and fully surprised, if at least ONE of them, would be something worth to play longer than the free month.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds