like someone said it took 200 years for simple mortals like us to advance technology in insane ways... while the basics of those were since epicness of epic greece lol.
even if logic and fantasy arent the best friends... if there is technology in a fantasy world... 250 years is more than enough to make advances. unless ofcourse you want to say that the whole guild wars world is full of dumbasses and there wasnt a single smart person even once. the exist technology was teleported from the void and nobody knows how it got there.
however i understand how some people say that engineer might not fit the game style, not because of technology, but of the style of the proffession. that 'rocket jump' skill is a good example of what i mean.
i believe we will only know if it fits in the game world, style of the world and along other classes when we actually play the game. only those who could play beta might have some slight idea of the feel inside the game. videos just dont do justice :]]]
Interesting read. Though it confirms why I personally don't like the Engineer.
"I personally love the sense of fun and slightly offbeat humor that some of the engineer skills have. Guild Wars is generally speaking a pretty serious game so it’s good when we can be a bit more lighthearted about things and not take ourselves so seriously. The engineer is just fun."
I prefer serious games. I dislike games that don't take themselves seriously.
I also think this adds to the discomfort that some feel at the Engineer. It's not just a technological class, it's a slightly over-the-top technological class. That's two factors setting the Engineer apart from the other classes and I think that for some, including me, it's just slightly too much.
It may have been a smarter choice to pick another class to take the lighthearted road. But what's done is done.
ps. I'm not trying to change GW2. Not trying to get the Engineer removed. Merely sharing my opinion. You don't have to reply to 'prove' me wrong, I'm quite happy in my current 'ignorant' situation.
I don't believe you to be ignorant, just quite "opposed" to things that aren't how you expect them to be. Which can be quite "sigh-ful" sometimes.
I can understand there being some sort of steampunk-ish character class in the game, but adding turret guns and flamethrowers is totally ridiculous for the era and theme of GW2. AN's explanation of engineer history is botched as well.
One doesn't simply leap from using black-powder and fireworks to building fully efficient flamethrowers. There is a lot involved in the tech of a flamethrower and not something that could have been built during any blackpowder era.
Please, PLEASE, get your facts straigth.
"The concept of throwing fire as a weapon has existed since ancient times. Early flame weapons date from the Byzantine era, whose inhabitants used rudimentary hand-pumped flamethrowers on board their naval ships in the early 1st century AD (see Greek fire). Greek fire, extensively used by the Byzantine Empire, is said to have been invented by Kallinikos (Callinicus) of Heliopolis, probably about 673. The flamethrower found its origins also in the Byzantine Empire, employing Greek fire in a device of a hand-held pump that shot bursts of Greek fire via a siphon-hose and piston, igniting it with a match, similar to modern versions, as it was ejected.[4] Greek fire, used primarily at sea, gave the Byzantines a substantinal military advantage against enemies such as members of the Arab Empire (who later adopted the use of Greek fire). An 11th century illustration of its use survives in the John Skylitzes manuscript."
Thanks for attaching that, awesome read. Good scoop too, Eric Flannum is one of the most interesting ppl to get an interview from, imo. Answers are usually very clear and tries to encompass different ways of seeing things as well as juggling what can be said with what cannot!
Engineer adds another dimension to the professions choices, imo.
I've always loved the mix of magic and tech since I first played final fantasy 6. It kind of gives this insight into how a high-fantasy world would advance if magic was real but people who weren't adept at it wanted to advance technology and have powerful abilities themselves.
I don't believe you to be ignorant, just quite "opposed" to things that aren't how you expect them to be. Which can be quite "sigh-ful" sometimes.
Can't really deny that I'm a stubborn bastard :P.
But it's not really "opposed" to things I don't expect. I'm just "opposed" to certain things in fantasy.
And sure, fantasy can be whatever it wants to be. But I can also like and dislike whatever I want. So if you include some of the following in your fantasy then I'm going to dislike your fantasy and you'll have to live with the terrible burden of knowing that a random guy who calls himself Gobla on the internet dislikes your fantasy world.
Things like:
Over-the-top technology in a swords & sorcery setting (and yes, batmobiles and laser mines are over-the-top technology no matter how many history articles you link ).
Sparkly vampires.
Popculture references.
Every race being discolored humans.
ps. I realise GW2 does not include sparkly vampires and that Charr aren't discolored humans. Two huge plus points in my book.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
All i hope is that gw2 doesn't end up with an immature player base of people who shun certain classes and leave them out of the fun in game, be it engineer, elementalist, guardian whatever .. it will be horrible to see people choosing not to be friendly to others on the premiss that they don't "approve" of ther profession choice. Dont get me wrong guys im not trying to provoke any one or disprove their opinions which in my views are all valid, (everyone is entitled to their own opinion its a free world) i just hope that when you see an engineer in downstate on the battle field, you wont be a bunch of wankers and turn the other cheek . Ill be rolling Engineer see you all in tyria, LETS KICK SOME DRAGON SPAWN ARSE !
#1 It is THERE story, they can DO anything they want . . crystal dragons, spells calling down rocks from the sky, robot golums etc . . guns, bombs and the like really no biggy.
#2 It has BEEN in and a logical progression of the lore/story so far. even hybrid tech and magic devices.
#3 What is so "High tech" about these guns and bombs, mines etc . . with alchemy + metal working easy. Flame throwers? crazy easy to make.
#4 "oh the turret auto aims, the mines are proximity, the grenades explode by impact." sure do, also arrows catch fire/electric while flying. A smash to the ground does AOE damage. You have a endless # of arrows/projectiles, etc. These are all needed for game play, so is allot of other unrealistic, realistic, and fantasy things in the game . . what is the point arguing about this then?
#5 "Tech on earth was not like this" "swords and guns should not mix as guns will win" etc TOTALLY irrelevant! Fictional world with dragons, cat/plant people etc Heck the simple existence of magic effectively allows anything . . (earth history did not have magic weapons/gear and magic blasts BTW) Explain exploding ice grenade? a classic example of fantasy tech.
#6 "don't like 'steam-punk' in my fantasy world" well, wrong game then go play LOTRO. The game is what it is and has been enjoy it or not . . your choice.
Personally I can't see what people are freaking over . . game-play wise, you could change the graphics and call this class a shaman, throwing potions and dropping totems . . so really not that different. But, In guildwars it makes more sense with a engineer (skin).
The idea that logic and fantasy are incompatible is a great big fail. Fantasy without internal logic and consistency is just wish fulfilment. Good fantasy novels (and settings) have internal consistancy, whatever path or milieu they use.
Not liking a particular aspect is just fine, we all have our tastes in things. I know I kinda like the Engineer, as I really did want to play an Asara techie. Though I loved that rational of a Sylvari engineer, fascinated with all this new stuff.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Originally posted by Meowhead Something people need to realize is that steampunk/clockpunk/gaslight fantasy and all the equivalents are not actually the same sort of technology we're using. Does something seem fantastical to you? Flamethrowers developed too fast? Tanks developed too fast? Perhaps you're bothered by the automated turrets. ... Steampunk >< real technology. This is the same sort of 'technology' where Victorian people fly in crazy superblimps and have robots built out of little gears. Because you know, the only thing you need to replicate human intelligence is a few extra gears compared to a clock. Steampunk technology... not realistic. Everybody who tries to bash an application of steampunk for being 'unrealistically advanced' is confusing the technology in GW2 with real technology. Which it isn't. So cut that out, it's silly. Also, the whole 'why use swords when you can use bullets' argument is pretty strange when you have people dropping meteors out of the sky, shooting lightning from their hands and shooting some sort of magical super-arrows. All the damage in GW2 is all sorts of crazy and wacky and imbalanced and seperate from reality. Bullets just generally don't hurt as much in fantasy worlds. Because they're not much fun when they kill too fast. :T (On the other hand, being hit in the face with a two handed sword repeatedly should kill you way more than a blunderbuss from 200 feet away, so whatever.
I think your application of logic to the discussion frustrates people who like to complain.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
#1 It is THERE story, they can DO anything they want . . crystal dragons, spells calling down rocks from the sky, robot golums etc . . guns, bombs and the like really no biggy.
#2 It has BEEN in and a logical progression of the lore/story so far. even hybrid tech and magic devices.
#3 What is so "High tech" about these guns and bombs, mines etc . . with alchemy + metal working easy. Flame throwers? crazy easy to make.
#4 "oh the turret auto aims, the mines are proximity, the grenades explode by impact." sure do, also arrows catch fire/electric while flying. A smash to the ground does AOE damage. You have a endless # of arrows/projectiles, etc. These are all needed for game play, so is allot of other unrealistic, realistic, and fantasy things in the game . . what is the point arguing about this then?
#5 "Tech on earth was not like this" "swords and guns should not mix as guns will win" etc TOTALLY irrelevant! Fictional world with dragons, cat/plant people etc Heck the simple existence of magic effectively allows anything . . (earth history did not have magic weapons/gear and magic blasts BTW) Explain exploding ice grenade? a classic example of fantasy tech.
#6 "don't like 'steam-punk' in my fantasy world" well, wrong game then go play LOTRO. The game is what it is and has been enjoy it or not . . your choice.
Personally I can't see what people are freaking over . . game-play wise, you could change the graphics and call this class a shaman, throwing potions and dropping totems . . so really not that different. But, In guildwars it makes more sense with a engineer (skin).
Looks like a fun class to play . .
You are 100% right. My problem with the engineer is more that the class feels taken straight from Team fotress. Guns and stuff is not really a problem, but the backpack and turrets risk turning the PvP into a FPS game.
Maybe that isn't such a bad thing since most FPS players prefer PvP while most MMO players prefer PvE, it might actually be what gets FPS players into MMOs but I really don't like the idea of turrets when you run a dungeon. I hope this class will be one we mostly see in PvP.
It is not a reason not to play the game of course, but the chances are that I wont invite engineers to the PUGs I set up.
"The concept of throwing fire as a weapon has existed since ancient times. Early flame weapons date from the Byzantine era, whose inhabitants used rudimentary hand-pumped flamethrowers on board their naval ships in the early 1st century AD (see Greek fire). Greek fire, extensively used by the Byzantine Empire, is said to have been invented by Kallinikos (Callinicus) of Heliopolis, probably about 673. The flamethrower found its origins also in the Byzantine Empire, employing Greek fire in a device of a hand-held pump that shot bursts of Greek fire via a siphon-hose and piston, igniting it with a match, similar to modern versions, as it was ejected.[4] Greek fire, used primarily at sea, gave the Byzantines a substantinal military advantage against enemies such as members of the Arab Empire (who later adopted the use of Greek fire). An 11th century illustration of its use survives in the John Skylitzes manuscript."
You are right (except as far as I know was Greek fire first used in Byzans late 7th century, I have not heard anything of it being used earlier and weapons interest me a lot). The portable flame thrower is from WW1 but it have been used on ships and fotresses for a millenia and more before that and scaling it down is actually not a problem as long as you can't use it too long.
It is really the turrent that doesn't belong, stuff like that is post war just like missiles and jet planes.
Mines is also not a new thing, Chinese engineers have been using it since the 12th century, even against ships. They wereant as moveable then and took time to put up but they are still fine to use.
Turrets is not steam punk. As for people talking about zeppelins they were invented in the 19th century but the only reason they weren't invented earlier was that unlike a baloon they need a engine and a steam engine isn't practical on something that is full of hydrogen. You can't compare that with something invented in the 1960s or so.
anet should seriously sit down and be like "what are we doing again?"
stupid, stupid class!
sorry but, actually no not sorry, this is a sorry ass excuse for a class cause they cant seem to come up with new original ideas. it looks like a rip off team fortress. sorry ass class. there i was hoping to come back to guildwars from WoW. I will NOT be coming back and a lot of guildwars veterans in other games aren't either from what i've heard. good job, i hope you're happy and all the fanboys can nervously smile at each other and say omg amazing class while looking at a class that's a rip off a fps.
im going to make the tf2 reference cause it has the same name and turrets. How dare Anet copy from the one and original engineer with turrets. Never mind the fact that engineers with turrets have been around before tf2. And turrets have been around since the time when guns were mounted on a pedistal and shot from!
Also I refuse to believe that turrets and guns and thingys that make ka-boom exists in MY guild wars. Yes its MY guildwars. Who cares if people can call down metors from the sky, and magically teleport via shotting an arrow. Guns you say! Fake and Gay I tell you!
I am now going to make the ultimate threat of all, with me and my imaginary friends will not buy this game.
Comments
like someone said it took 200 years for simple mortals like us to advance technology in insane ways... while the basics of those were since epicness of epic greece lol.
even if logic and fantasy arent the best friends... if there is technology in a fantasy world... 250 years is more than enough to make advances. unless ofcourse you want to say that the whole guild wars world is full of dumbasses and there wasnt a single smart person even once. the exist technology was teleported from the void and nobody knows how it got there.
however i understand how some people say that engineer might not fit the game style, not because of technology, but of the style of the proffession. that 'rocket jump' skill is a good example of what i mean.
i believe we will only know if it fits in the game world, style of the world and along other classes when we actually play the game. only those who could play beta might have some slight idea of the feel inside the game. videos just dont do justice :]]]
I don't believe you to be ignorant, just quite "opposed" to things that aren't how you expect them to be. Which can be quite "sigh-ful" sometimes.
This is not a game.
Thanks for attaching that, awesome read. Good scoop too, Eric Flannum is one of the most interesting ppl to get an interview from, imo. Answers are usually very clear and tries to encompass different ways of seeing things as well as juggling what can be said with what cannot!
Engineer adds another dimension to the professions choices, imo.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
I've always loved the mix of magic and tech since I first played final fantasy 6. It kind of gives this insight into how a high-fantasy world would advance if magic was real but people who weren't adept at it wanted to advance technology and have powerful abilities themselves.
Can't really deny that I'm a stubborn bastard :P.
But it's not really "opposed" to things I don't expect. I'm just "opposed" to certain things in fantasy.
And sure, fantasy can be whatever it wants to be. But I can also like and dislike whatever I want. So if you include some of the following in your fantasy then I'm going to dislike your fantasy and you'll have to live with the terrible burden of knowing that a random guy who calls himself Gobla on the internet dislikes your fantasy world.
Things like:
Over-the-top technology in a swords & sorcery setting (and yes, batmobiles and laser mines are over-the-top technology no matter how many history articles you link ).
Sparkly vampires.
Popculture references.
Every race being discolored humans.
ps. I realise GW2 does not include sparkly vampires and that Charr aren't discolored humans. Two huge plus points in my book.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
Engineers will be useful in PVP especially server versus server.
Although I dont see myself playing an engineer as my main I did like the skill sets it brings
especially area med packs will make Engineer a must want on the team.
Now if memsers are the final class to be released it will be icing on the cake
All i hope is that gw2 doesn't end up with an immature player base of people who shun certain classes and leave them out of the fun in game, be it engineer, elementalist, guardian whatever .. it will be horrible to see people choosing not to be friendly to others on the premiss that they don't "approve" of ther profession choice. Dont get me wrong guys im not trying to provoke any one or disprove their opinions which in my views are all valid, (everyone is entitled to their own opinion its a free world) i just hope that when you see an engineer in downstate on the battle field, you wont be a bunch of wankers and turn the other cheek
. Ill be rolling Engineer see you all in tyria, LETS KICK SOME DRAGON SPAWN ARSE !
Come on people,
#1 It is THERE story, they can DO anything they want . . crystal dragons, spells calling down rocks from the sky, robot golums etc . . guns, bombs and the like really no biggy.
#2 It has BEEN in and a logical progression of the lore/story so far. even hybrid tech and magic devices.
#3 What is so "High tech" about these guns and bombs, mines etc . . with alchemy + metal working easy. Flame throwers? crazy easy to make.
#4 "oh the turret auto aims, the mines are proximity, the grenades explode by impact." sure do, also arrows catch fire/electric while flying. A smash to the ground does AOE damage. You have a endless # of arrows/projectiles, etc. These are all needed for game play, so is allot of other unrealistic, realistic, and fantasy things in the game . . what is the point arguing about this then?
#5 "Tech on earth was not like this" "swords and guns should not mix as guns will win" etc TOTALLY irrelevant! Fictional world with dragons, cat/plant people etc Heck the simple existence of magic effectively allows anything . . (earth history did not have magic weapons/gear and magic blasts BTW) Explain exploding ice grenade? a classic example of fantasy tech.
#6 "don't like 'steam-punk' in my fantasy world" well, wrong game then go play LOTRO. The game is what it is and has been enjoy it or not . . your choice.
Personally I can't see what people are freaking over . . game-play wise, you could change the graphics and call this class a shaman, throwing potions and dropping totems . . so really not that different. But, In guildwars it makes more sense with a engineer (skin).
Looks like a fun class to play . .
The idea that logic and fantasy are incompatible is a great big fail. Fantasy without internal logic and consistency is just wish fulfilment. Good fantasy novels (and settings) have internal consistancy, whatever path or milieu they use.
Not liking a particular aspect is just fine, we all have our tastes in things. I know I kinda like the Engineer, as I really did want to play an Asara techie. Though I loved that rational of a Sylvari engineer, fascinated with all this new stuff.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
I think your application of logic to the discussion frustrates people who like to complain.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
You are 100% right. My problem with the engineer is more that the class feels taken straight from Team fotress. Guns and stuff is not really a problem, but the backpack and turrets risk turning the PvP into a FPS game.
Maybe that isn't such a bad thing since most FPS players prefer PvP while most MMO players prefer PvE, it might actually be what gets FPS players into MMOs but I really don't like the idea of turrets when you run a dungeon. I hope this class will be one we mostly see in PvP.
It is not a reason not to play the game of course, but the chances are that I wont invite engineers to the PUGs I set up.
You are right (except as far as I know was Greek fire first used in Byzans late 7th century, I have not heard anything of it being used earlier and weapons interest me a lot). The portable flame thrower is from WW1 but it have been used on ships and fotresses for a millenia and more before that and scaling it down is actually not a problem as long as you can't use it too long.
It is really the turrent that doesn't belong, stuff like that is post war just like missiles and jet planes.
Mines is also not a new thing, Chinese engineers have been using it since the 12th century, even against ships. They wereant as moveable then and took time to put up but they are still fine to use.
Turrets is not steam punk. As for people talking about zeppelins they were invented in the 19th century but the only reason they weren't invented earlier was that unlike a baloon they need a engine and a steam engine isn't practical on something that is full of hydrogen. You can't compare that with something invented in the 1960s or so.
Seemed interesting until the skills where revealed and it's just a bunch of lame ass kiting with a couple "kits"..
How freaking unoriginal could they have gone with this..
It had a lot more promise then THIS..
Blah, blah, blah... class still sounds like a good idea so far. we'll see what happens when Beta or the game come out.
anet should seriously sit down and be like "what are we doing again?"
stupid, stupid class!
sorry but, actually no not sorry, this is a sorry ass excuse for a class cause they cant seem to come up with new original ideas. it looks like a rip off team fortress. sorry ass class. there i was hoping to come back to guildwars from WoW. I will NOT be coming back and a lot of guildwars veterans in other games aren't either from what i've heard. good job, i hope you're happy
and all the fanboys can nervously smile at each other and say omg amazing class while looking at a class that's a rip off a fps.
peace
im going to make the tf2 reference cause it has the same name and turrets. How dare Anet copy from the one and original engineer with turrets. Never mind the fact that engineers with turrets have been around before tf2. And turrets have been around since the time when guns were mounted on a pedistal and shot from!
Also I refuse to believe that turrets and guns and thingys that make ka-boom exists in MY guild wars. Yes its MY guildwars. Who cares if people can call down metors from the sky, and magically teleport via shotting an arrow. Guns you say! Fake and Gay I tell you!
I am now going to make the ultimate threat of all, with me and my imaginary friends will not buy this game.
YOUR MOVE ANET YOUR MOVE!
I think I found my class!!!