Balance can only take you so far. When it stops making sense within the context of your created world you've made a fatal error. I fail to see why tried and tested mechanics in a PvE environment should automatically be thrown out the window whenever you step into a PvP battleground. In a class-based system it is inevitable that certain classes will perform better against others, why try and stop it? All you achieve in accomplishing is annoying the community as a whole, setting yourself upon the greasy pole of continuous balance patches, and simultaneously removing any chance of people working together in team-based games.
What you should really be focusing on is rewarding people for performing their role in a PvP encounter. I don't think I have yet seen a game that properly accounts for the actions of dedicated healers in PvP. Instead they charge around blindly, trying in vain to find an easy target they can outlive in an often mindnumbing battle of attrition. Tanks rarely find themselves in a position to make the most of their abilities as taunts and the like have zero effect on players. Only DPS remain able to shine as doing damage is apparently the only thing that matters.
Return to your tried, tested, and hopefully well balanced PvE mechanics and apply them to PvP. Operating as a group becomes tantamount to success and rids you of the annoying sods soloing in a corner somewhere or ganking weaker players relentlessly. Reward tanks for taking damage and healers for healing it. Your only issue with balance should be ensuring that people are rewarded properly for their contribution to the battle as a whole not how well they can solo.
If you really wanted to balance PvP in the way most companies try you'd simply create a single default class that everyone is forced to play whenever they step into the ring.
The idea of class balance owes its prickliness (yay imaginary vocabulary/spelling) to the baby-daddy of all RPGs, table-top war gaming. When Gygax and Co. started out, their onus was on the effect that any class would have on a game that lives and breathes utter balance ad nauseum. For me, RPGs do not have to reflect balance as a mirror-effect... i.e. every class does not and should not need to be utterly equal to the others. Can anyone argue that Gandalf's class was balanced? That Emperor Palpatine's was balanced? Was Drizzt *apologies*, Fafhrd, Beowulf, Cu Chulainn, Hercules, The Dad from Good Times, Mike Tyson, Meatloaf or the Cylons balanced?
The answer to all of the above (particularly the Dad from Good Times), is no.
You're wrong in two ways.
1. You cite non-interactive media. When viewers don't interact, balance doesn't matter. When interaction exists, it should matter -- without balance, it won't matter.
2. Virtually all the characters you cited were defeated, and therefore balanced against the skill/capabilities of the "good guys".
Virtually all of the characters I cited were called 'metaphors'.
And of all of the characters I cited (with the exception of the Dad from Good Times, damn damn damn) were defeated by their OWN CLASS.
Oh; and I completely agree with Treelo when he said that in a class-based system it is inevitable that certain classes will perform better against others, so why try and stop it? Encourage it and you might actually find more willingness to partake in ORGANIZED PvP.
The idea of class balance owes its prickliness (yay imaginary vocabulary/spelling) to the baby-daddy of all RPGs, table-top war gaming. When Gygax and Co. started out, their onus was on the effect that any class would have on a game that lives and breathes utter balance ad nauseum. For me, RPGs do not have to reflect balance as a mirror-effect... i.e. every class does not and should not need to be utterly equal to the others. Can anyone argue that Gandalf's class was balanced? That Emperor Palpatine's was balanced? Was Drizzt *apologies*, Fafhrd, Beowulf, Cu Chulainn, Hercules, The Dad from Good Times, Mike Tyson, Meatloaf or the Cylons balanced?
The answer to all of the above (particularly the Dad from Good Times), is no.
You're wrong in two ways.
1. You cite non-interactive media. When viewers don't interact, balance doesn't matter. When interaction exists, it should matter -- without balance, it won't matter.
2. Virtually all the characters you cited were defeated, and therefore balanced against the skill/capabilities of the "good guys".
And of all of the characters I cited (with the exception of the Dad from Good Times, damn damn damn) were defeated by their OWN CLASS. Come on back
Oh; and I completely agree with Treelo when he said that in a class-based system it is inevitable that certain classes will perform better against others, so why try and stop it? Encourage it and you might actually find more willingness to partake in ORGANIZED PvP.
You understand the purpose of these characters as metaphors, but don't understand how that's an entirely separate concept from balance in interactive games. Odd.
If government said "There's going to be crime, so why try and stop it" would be we better off, or worse? ...the same is true of game balance. Without it, player decisions become totally irrelevant, variety ceases to exist, and games become boring/terrible.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I do very strongly believe DAoC had it best when it came to pvp. Such a variety in classes and specialities made it a wonderful pvp game. I was a Frostalf Mend/Pac healer which meant I was the main healer but also had the best CC for Midgard. It was a really fun mix.
I do believe however that Rift has done many things right. It is not a pvp game and it is certainly not mind bogglingly amazing pvp but the mix of skills between the classes and souls really makes pvp fun.
I really wish they would do a remake of DAoC. I would never look at another game.
I think many of us share your sentiment. They really did nail the 'balance' of the game, by never really being balanced individually, but only through your group and it's dynamics.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
In a word... no... Rock, paper, scissors is a perfectly acceptable game mechanic in PvP. It levels the playing field to some degree, and that makes PvP more fun... even "dominant" players need to constantly be looking over their shoulder with a hint of worry...
The idea of class balance owes its prickliness (yay imaginary vocabulary/spelling) to the baby-daddy of all RPGs, table-top war gaming. When Gygax and Co. started out, their onus was on the effect that any class would have on a game that lives and breathes utter balance ad nauseum. For me, RPGs do not have to reflect balance as a mirror-effect... i.e. every class does not and should not need to be utterly equal to the others. Can anyone argue that Gandalf's class was balanced? That Emperor Palpatine's was balanced? Was Drizzt *apologies*, Fafhrd, Beowulf, Cu Chulainn, Hercules, The Dad from Good Times, Mike Tyson, Meatloaf or the Cylons balanced?
The answer to all of the above (particularly the Dad from Good Times), is no.
You're wrong in two ways.
1. You cite non-interactive media. When viewers don't interact, balance doesn't matter. When interaction exists, it should matter -- without balance, it won't matter.
2. Virtually all the characters you cited were defeated, and therefore balanced against the skill/capabilities of the "good guys".
And of all of the characters I cited (with the exception of the Dad from Good Times, damn damn damn) were defeated by their OWN CLASS. Come on back
Oh; and I completely agree with Treelo when he said that in a class-based system it is inevitable that certain classes will perform better against others, so why try and stop it? Encourage it and you might actually find more willingness to partake in ORGANIZED PvP.
You understand the purpose of these characters as metaphors, but don't understand how that's an entirely separate concept from balance in interactive games. Odd.
If government said "There's going to be crime, so why try and stop it" would be we better off, or worse? ...the same is true of game balance. Without it, player decisions become totally irrelevant, variety ceases to exist, and games become boring/terrible.
That's going a long way there, cowboy. My point is that there's not much use behind class differences at all in PVP if every class has all of the exact same strengths and weaknesses as every other class. Give me paper rock, scissors over that anyday, please. I don't care if warriors beat mages in one-on-ones most of the time or if its the other way around. Learn to accept that things don't have to be 'fair' by your definition in order to be interesting or challenging.
Mirror-image equality destroys fun. Let classes overlap a little, sure - but don't make them clones. That's all I am attempting to explain here. One last thing axe, my point is not wrong. No one's points on these forums are wrong. They are 'opinions'. http://dictionary.reference.com
That's going a long way there, cowboy. My point is that there's not much use behind class differences at all in PVP if every class has all of the exact same strengths and weaknesses as every other class. Give me paper rock, scissors over that anyday, please. I don't care if warriors beat mages in one-on-ones most of the time or if its the other way around. Learn to accept that things don't have to be 'fair' by your definition in order to be interesting or challenging.
Mirror-image equality destroys fun. Let classes overlap a little, sure - but don't make them clones. That's all I am attempting to explain here. One last thing axe, my point is not wrong. No one's points on these forums are wrong. They are 'opinions'. http://dictionary.reference.com
Balance doesn't mean that every class has the same strengths and weaknesses. Why would you assume that? Playstyles were completely different in Starcraft, and yet you had balance. The same is true of any well-made game.
Just take a second to catch up on current definitions before you continue posting in a thread about game balance. The article should seem pretty obvious to anyone who's put any amount of thought into how balance relates to games.
Balance does not make two things identical. Stand on a scale balanced against some stone weights. Are you a stone weight? Of course not. But you're balanced. This is exactly how game balance works: it's a measure of one specific variable (power), not an indication that two classes are identical.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I do very strongly believe DAoC had it best when it came to pvp. Such a variety in classes and specialities made it a wonderful pvp game. I was a Frostalf Mend/Pac healer which meant I was the main healer but also had the best CC for Midgard. It was a really fun mix.
I do believe however that Rift has done many things right. It is not a pvp game and it is certainly not mind bogglingly amazing pvp but the mix of skills between the classes and souls really makes pvp fun.
I really wish they would do a remake of DAoC. I would never look at another game.
I do very strongly believe DAoC had it best when it came to pvp. Such a variety in classes and specialities made it a wonderful pvp game. I was a Frostalf Mend/Pac healer which meant I was the main healer but also had the best CC for Midgard. It was a really fun mix.
I do believe however that Rift has done many things right. It is not a pvp game and it is certainly not mind bogglingly amazing pvp but the mix of skills between the classes and souls really makes pvp fun.
I really wish they would do a remake of DAoC. I would never look at another game.
I think many of us share your sentiment. They really did nail the 'balance' of the game, by never really being balanced individually, but only through your group and it's dynamics.
The issue of balance only came up once 8v8 became the norm and raids took a back seat. RPs trumped defending your realm.
Now i will say that AOE stun + PBAOE was vastly overpowered. (stunning 20 people who for 8 seconds, cant do anything, not even remove it), but the CC was a bit out of control in that game anyway.
Depends on what type of PvPv we speak. If it's competetive, e sport type PvP then yes, every class/character choice should be viable, it can be weaker or stronger against certain types, but overall, a skilled person should be able to do their magick, here it should be strategy, reaction time and tactic that play a role, not class.
Now for casual pvp that should be core of most MMORPGs i think it would be better if it was more of "Everything can beat at least something, preferably equal number of things", since you want to mainly balance around group combat and that way no class/character would be obsolate and none would be I-WIN.
First, I'm no fan of PvP in MMORPG. I think it's basically like other PvP games, except that it requires you to level up a char and grind gear for days or weeks, and then the one who spent most time grinding or most money at the cash shop wins.
That beeing said: I think that you have to differ between MMORPGs that are unbalanced in so far that one or two classes or combos dominate the entire PvP game. Like, that a player completly new to the game can play one class and easily take apart far more skilled players of another class. Regularily, maybe several of them at once. If that's the case: yep, the it's unbalanced. But most often this ain't the case. People just assume it is. They get killed by someone, and assume they made no mistake while their opponent did, and that they should win and the game is all unbalanced etcetcetc.
Most of the time, it's just the normal tiny unbalancing. I mean, PvP games can't ever be 100% balanced. Starting with the fact that the person with a sucky computer has less of a chance than the one with a good computer. Now add internet connection, age, reactions, the amount of distraction while playing (ie by a nearby barking dog) and whatever. And the game itself can't be balanced either. There are too many variables and combos having an effect on each other, that it's impossible to keep everything in check. Add to that that healthy MMORPGs receive patches regularily which keep shifting the balance back and forth, and you got to admit that balance doesn't exist. Sometimes a patch makes your class stronger, sometimes a patch makes your class weaker. To become truly good: learn to perform well no matter what.
The right attitude to play MMORPG PvP is, in my opinion: I play my class, I do my best, I constantly learn about my own class and others. And if I play it well, then no matter the balancing, I will perform well too.
Most players seem to have the attitude: I'm the most awesome player, and if anyone kills me for any reason, then that person is a cheater and the game is unbalanced.
It depends. I don't expect all games to allow each roll to be able to beat every other role. Having a decent sized disadvantage can really make an emphasis and appretiation for more support oriented gameplay.
In mmorpg's, if you are playing in an open world and are forced into 1v1, it's not that fun to know that no matter what you do, you WILL not beat the other player.
Even if you are at a disadvantage, it would be great for a player who really knows the class to be able to perhaps use world conditions in order to gain an advantage. This is why I love realistic terrain benefits, such as some players doing better in narrow spaces like ship passages, or steep slopes.
Others others will enjoy the freedoms of being able to take use of quick exits such as in mazes of sorts. Another play may benefit from being in a very open environment.
Originally posted by Swollen_Beef Should a cloth wearing healing class be afforded the same chance to beat a chain wearing DPS class? Or should a developer flat out refuse to allow the everyone can beat everyone mentality? in EVE you wont see a logistics ship roll up on a HAC and stand toe to toe with one. But in WoW.....
To me, the problem is everyone has a "role". When PvP enters the picture, those roles become blatantly obvious. A support role character should never stand toe to toe with a dps role. What should be happening is that the healer cannot die due to their healing ability and the tank should take damage forever. Eventually, the dps falls over from exhaustion. PvP takes away these roles and tries to make all equal. That's when the crying starts.
I am a PvE'er and have to say that PvP has killed more mmo's for me than any other factor. PvP is the reason "nerfs" exist as games try to "balance out" the classes/roles. It has always been my opinion that PvE and PvP should NEVER mix, as they are 2 very different games. They each spoil the other and cannot co-exist in the same game with any happiness amongst either environment.
City of Heroes is my favorite example of PvP ruining a game. It started out with no PvP. It worked. Well. As soon as PvP was introduced, balancing issues between roles became evident (duh!) and the nerffbat was unleashed. I left.
Check out how often the flavor of the month class changes as nerfs hit the game with each patch. Why do you think this happens?
To be clear, I do not dislike PvP. It is another way of playing online games. It is just that the two (PvE/PvP) have tried to co-exist for over a decade and there is still no solution.
Can anyone name one game that has both great PvE AND PvP? I would like to try it since there is no mutually exclusive games out there. I'm not talking "passable" games. I am talking good games. I have heard game X is great for PvP or game K is awesome for PvE, but I have not heard of a game that incorporates both in an enjoyable combination.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I don't agree with the 'Rock, Paper, Scissors' crap. I believe that's an excuse for poor 'balance' in a game.
I also think 100% balance is impossible in this genre or any other for that matter.
Let's face it, some people have better reactions, better tactics, better gear maybe, whatever.
What is important is that everyone has a 'fair chance' against another player or class.
It shouldn't matter whether you're wearing cloth, leather, plate - or if you're ranged, melee or aoe.
In a 1 vs 1 situation, each class should have the skills/tools/tactics to put up a good fight against any other class.
True balance has never really bothered me too much. I like a challenge and feel a higher sense of reward knowing I was (probably) the underdog.
What really bothers me is knowing I have absolutely no chance of winning against a certain class, nor even a chance of escaping should I need to.
The main thing that kills PvP for me is the ridiculous burst damage that can kill you in seconds, before you even have a chance to think of tactics or even withdrawal.
'One shotting' is just terribly poor game design in my opinion and there is no excuse for it.
Any fight should have options - and options can only be made if the fight is able to last beyond the blink of an eye.
We're playing MMO's here, not FPS games. Get rid of the 'HEADSHOT' mentality and give people time to think and react accordingly!
I don't agree with the 'Rock, Paper, Scissors' crap. I believe that's an excuse for poor 'balance' in a game.
I also think 100% balance is impossible in this genre or any other for that matter.
Let's face it, some people have better reactions, better tactics, better gear maybe, whatever.
What is important is that everyone has a 'fair chance' against another player or class.
It shouldn't matter whether you're wearing cloth, leather, plate - or if you're ranged, melee or aoe.
In a 1 vs 1 situation, each class should have the skills/tools/tactics to put up a good fight against any other class.
True balance has never really bothered me too much. I like a challenge and feel a higher sense of reward knowing I was (probably) the underdog.
What really bothers me is knowing I have absolutely no chance of winning against a certain class, nor even a chance of escaping should I need to.
The main thing that kills PvP for me is the ridiculous burst damage that can kill you in seconds, before you even have a chance to think of tactics or even withdrawal.
'One shotting' is just terribly poor game design in my opinion and there is no excuse for it.
Any fight should have options - and options can only be made if the fight is able to last beyond the blink of an eye.
We're playing MMO's here, not FPS games. Get rid of the 'HEADSHOT' mentality and give people time to think and react accordingly!
fair chance against everyone else? So lets just make an MMO with one class and only one way to spec him.
The frontload damage has gotten way out of hand in PvP mmos. And i would say it is a major reason why many MMOs fail in the end game. But a lot of that hangs on the insanity that is the gear.
Should a cloth wearing healing class be afforded the same chance to beat a chain wearing DPS class?
Or should a developer flat out refuse to allow the everyone can beat everyone mentality?
in EVE you wont see a logistics ship roll up on a HAC and stand toe to toe with one.
But in WoW.....
PvP should equal that the best player win.
If a class always will lose against another that means that the game is poorly balanced 1 Vs 1. MMOs are of course also about groups versus groups and the group that co operates and play best should of course win, but that really is no excuse for having some classes severly underpowered.
Cloth healers is a typical MMO thing. D&D and most of the other games have healers in heavy armor that actually can both take and give some damage.
In fact in my regular D&D (3rd ed) group we have a cleric as main tank while my bard is the main healer and secondary tank. It is actually a lot better balanced than the average MMO,
If gear, levels, imbalance or other mechanics makes the lousiest players win more than once in a while (everyone can get lucky) the game isn't as good as it should be. And don't give me the old "it is roleplaying, my characters skills is what matters" speach.
This is the reason that PvP is 10 times as popular as PvE in FPS gaming but MMOs are the other way around.
I do not advocate FPS styled combat, MMOs is and should be slower but strategy, wits and competence should win the day, not the class you play or the fact that you farmed gear for 2 years.
in EVE you wont see a logistics ship roll up on a HAC and stand toe to toe with one.
But in WoW.....
Ships aren't classes in EVE. For all you know the player in the logistics ship could hop into a titan the next time you see them.
If you enjoy playing games where your actions after the creation screen have no effect on your chances at victory, there are plenty of MMOs like that. If you prefer a game where the choices you are making right now have a greater effect the outcome of a fight than the choice you made 6 months ago they have those for you as well. However your assumption of which side of the road EVE is on is wrong.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
in EVE you wont see a logistics ship roll up on a HAC and stand toe to toe with one.
But in WoW.....
Ships aren't classes in EVE. For all you know the player in the logistics ship could hop into a titan the next time you see them.
If you enjoy playing games where your actions after the creation screen have no effect on your chances at victory, there are plenty of MMOs like that. If you prefer a game where the choices you are making right now have a greater effect the outcome of a fight than the choice you made 6 months ago they have those for you as well. However your assumption of which side of the road EVE is on is wrong.
Ships are not classes. But there are classes of ship.
you missed the point entirely and decided to read it as something else.
Someone in a Basilisk fully fitted for shield/armor rep, is not going to pick a fight with a harbinger. .
And who the hell cares if the logi pilot can fly a titan. He isnt in the titan right now, so those titan skills mean dick.
Ships are not classes. But there are classes of ship.
you missed the point entirely and decided to read it as something else.
Someone in a Basilisk fully fitted for shield/armor rep, is not going to pick a fight with a harbinger. .
And who the hell cares if the logi pilot can fly a titan. He isnt in the titan right now, so those titan skills mean dick.
Semantics don't make an argument. There are classes of ships... which only matter so far as you need specifics skills to use them. Ships are not classes, ships are equipment.
You seem incredibly unwelcoming of any real logic into your thread. You compare classes in WoW (I make this wild assumption because you mention cloth healer, chain DPS, and "WoW" in your post) and leave out the inverse of Chain healer and Cloth DPS?
In MMOs a class is normally chosen at creation, unable to be changed later on. To decide that chain beats cloth means that every choice after that first choice at creation is null, pointless and thus unexciting. In EVE you do not choose Battlecruiser when you create your account and are thus bound to that class of ship. How you can compare EVE ship choice which is closer to a choice of armor or weapon in a fantasy MMO (which you need specific skills to use a "class" of weapon in, just as you need skills to use a "class" of ship) to a WoW Class which is completely unchangeable after being decided upon is silly.
I didn't miss your point, your point was flawed. If you want a game where "balance" doesn't mean everyone has a fair shot, go play Lineage2. EVE is not the game you seem to think it is, as any player has the chance to beat any other player given similar access to the 2 main currencies, Skill points and ISK. that flows EXACTLY the same as the (attempt) WoW has made to balance WoW so that any class can beat any other class given similar access to the 1 main currency, Gear.
Go look up videos of mining barges killing ore thiefs and frigs taking down battleships, EVE is one of the most balanced games around, far more so than WoW.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
Ships are not classes. But there are classes of ship.
you missed the point entirely and decided to read it as something else.
Someone in a Basilisk fully fitted for shield/armor rep, is not going to pick a fight with a harbinger. .
And who the hell cares if the logi pilot can fly a titan. He isnt in the titan right now, so those titan skills mean dick.
Semantics don't make an argument. There are classes of ships... which only matter so far as you need specifics skills to use them. Ships are not classes, ships are equipment.
You seem incredibly unwelcoming of any real logic into your thread. You compare classes in WoW (I make this wild assumption because you mention cloth healer, chain DPS, and "WoW" in your post) and leave out the inverse of Chain healer and Cloth DPS?
In MMOs a class is normally chosen at creation, unable to be changed later on. To decide that chain beats cloth means that every choice after that first choice at creation is null, pointless and thus unexciting. In EVE you do not choose Battlecruiser when you create your account and are thus bound to that class of ship. How you can compare EVE ship choice which is closer to a choice of armor or weapon in a fantasy MMO (which you need specific skills to use a "class" of weapon in, just as you need skills to use a "class" of ship) to a WoW Class which is completely unchangeable after being decided upon is silly.
I didn't miss your point, your point was flawed. If you want a game where "balance" doesn't mean everyone has a fair shot, go play Lineage2. EVE is not the game you seem to think it is, as any player has the chance to beat any other player given similar access to the 2 main currencies, Skill points and ISK. that flows EXACTLY the same as the (attempt) WoW has made to balance WoW so that any class can beat any other class given similar access to the 1 main currency, Gear.
Go look up videos of mining barges killing ore thiefs and frigs taking down battleships, EVE is one of the most balanced games around, far more so than WoW.
You cannot change your class once you hit play in an MMO. But you could look at the time in the hangar as your "character creator" Since once you undock, you cannot change your fitting and i have yet to see someoen eject mid-fight, and try to enter into an empty ship.
And i can take battleships down all day too with a gang of frigs and a BS fit meant for rats.
This argument is going nowhere, but i am more than happy to put on the troll face and continue.
But you could look at the time in the hangar as your "character creator"
You could, but most wouldn't. once you undock you're stuck with that "build" for 10min, a few hours. You are comparing that to a choice that will last your entire play time in an MMO, possibly years.
I mean, maybe you are serious. But saying that the few hours you spend with a specific ship equipped is the same as the years you spend as your chosen class sure sounds like trolling.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
Comments
Balance can only take you so far. When it stops making sense within the context of your created world you've made a fatal error. I fail to see why tried and tested mechanics in a PvE environment should automatically be thrown out the window whenever you step into a PvP battleground. In a class-based system it is inevitable that certain classes will perform better against others, why try and stop it? All you achieve in accomplishing is annoying the community as a whole, setting yourself upon the greasy pole of continuous balance patches, and simultaneously removing any chance of people working together in team-based games.
What you should really be focusing on is rewarding people for performing their role in a PvP encounter. I don't think I have yet seen a game that properly accounts for the actions of dedicated healers in PvP. Instead they charge around blindly, trying in vain to find an easy target they can outlive in an often mindnumbing battle of attrition. Tanks rarely find themselves in a position to make the most of their abilities as taunts and the like have zero effect on players. Only DPS remain able to shine as doing damage is apparently the only thing that matters.
Return to your tried, tested, and hopefully well balanced PvE mechanics and apply them to PvP. Operating as a group becomes tantamount to success and rids you of the annoying sods soloing in a corner somewhere or ganking weaker players relentlessly. Reward tanks for taking damage and healers for healing it. Your only issue with balance should be ensuring that people are rewarded properly for their contribution to the battle as a whole not how well they can solo.
If you really wanted to balance PvP in the way most companies try you'd simply create a single default class that everyone is forced to play whenever they step into the ring.
Virtually all of the characters I cited were called 'metaphors'.
And of all of the characters I cited (with the exception of the Dad from Good Times, damn damn damn) were defeated by their OWN CLASS.
Oh; and I completely agree with Treelo when he said that in a class-based system it is inevitable that certain classes will perform better against others, so why try and stop it? Encourage it and you might actually find more willingness to partake in ORGANIZED PvP.
Greystaff Legends RPG
You understand the purpose of these characters as metaphors, but don't understand how that's an entirely separate concept from balance in interactive games. Odd.
If government said "There's going to be crime, so why try and stop it" would be we better off, or worse? ...the same is true of game balance. Without it, player decisions become totally irrelevant, variety ceases to exist, and games become boring/terrible.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I think many of us share your sentiment. They really did nail the 'balance' of the game, by never really being balanced individually, but only through your group and it's dynamics.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
In a word... no... Rock, paper, scissors is a perfectly acceptable game mechanic in PvP. It levels the playing field to some degree, and that makes PvP more fun... even "dominant" players need to constantly be looking over their shoulder with a hint of worry...
That's going a long way there, cowboy. My point is that there's not much use behind class differences at all in PVP if every class has all of the exact same strengths and weaknesses as every other class. Give me paper rock, scissors over that anyday, please. I don't care if warriors beat mages in one-on-ones most of the time or if its the other way around. Learn to accept that things don't have to be 'fair' by your definition in order to be interesting or challenging.
Mirror-image equality destroys fun. Let classes overlap a little, sure - but don't make them clones. That's all I am attempting to explain here. One last thing axe, my point is not wrong. No one's points on these forums are wrong. They are 'opinions'. http://dictionary.reference.com
Greystaff Legends RPG
Balance doesn't mean that every class has the same strengths and weaknesses. Why would you assume that? Playstyles were completely different in Starcraft, and yet you had balance. The same is true of any well-made game.
Just take a second to catch up on current definitions before you continue posting in a thread about game balance. The article should seem pretty obvious to anyone who's put any amount of thought into how balance relates to games.
At the very least, use your own advice and look up http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/balance
Balance does not make two things identical. Stand on a scale balanced against some stone weights. Are you a stone weight? Of course not. But you're balanced. This is exactly how game balance works: it's a measure of one specific variable (power), not an indication that two classes are identical.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Agree 100%.
Greystaff Legends RPG
The issue of balance only came up once 8v8 became the norm and raids took a back seat. RPs trumped defending your realm.
Now i will say that AOE stun + PBAOE was vastly overpowered. (stunning 20 people who for 8 seconds, cant do anything, not even remove it), but the CC was a bit out of control in that game anyway.
Depends on what type of PvPv we speak. If it's competetive, e sport type PvP then yes, every class/character choice should be viable, it can be weaker or stronger against certain types, but overall, a skilled person should be able to do their magick, here it should be strategy, reaction time and tactic that play a role, not class.
Now for casual pvp that should be core of most MMORPGs i think it would be better if it was more of "Everything can beat at least something, preferably equal number of things", since you want to mainly balance around group combat and that way no class/character would be obsolate and none would be I-WIN.
Player skills should be the deciding factor in PvP, not gear, class, level etc.
My gaming blog
First, I'm no fan of PvP in MMORPG. I think it's basically like other PvP games, except that it requires you to level up a char and grind gear for days or weeks, and then the one who spent most time grinding or most money at the cash shop wins.
That beeing said: I think that you have to differ between MMORPGs that are unbalanced in so far that one or two classes or combos dominate the entire PvP game. Like, that a player completly new to the game can play one class and easily take apart far more skilled players of another class. Regularily, maybe several of them at once. If that's the case: yep, the it's unbalanced. But most often this ain't the case. People just assume it is. They get killed by someone, and assume they made no mistake while their opponent did, and that they should win and the game is all unbalanced etcetcetc.
Most of the time, it's just the normal tiny unbalancing. I mean, PvP games can't ever be 100% balanced. Starting with the fact that the person with a sucky computer has less of a chance than the one with a good computer. Now add internet connection, age, reactions, the amount of distraction while playing (ie by a nearby barking dog) and whatever. And the game itself can't be balanced either. There are too many variables and combos having an effect on each other, that it's impossible to keep everything in check. Add to that that healthy MMORPGs receive patches regularily which keep shifting the balance back and forth, and you got to admit that balance doesn't exist. Sometimes a patch makes your class stronger, sometimes a patch makes your class weaker. To become truly good: learn to perform well no matter what.
The right attitude to play MMORPG PvP is, in my opinion: I play my class, I do my best, I constantly learn about my own class and others. And if I play it well, then no matter the balancing, I will perform well too.
Most players seem to have the attitude: I'm the most awesome player, and if anyone kills me for any reason, then that person is a cheater and the game is unbalanced.
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
It depends. I don't expect all games to allow each roll to be able to beat every other role. Having a decent sized disadvantage can really make an emphasis and appretiation for more support oriented gameplay.
In mmorpg's, if you are playing in an open world and are forced into 1v1, it's not that fun to know that no matter what you do, you WILL not beat the other player.
Even if you are at a disadvantage, it would be great for a player who really knows the class to be able to perhaps use world conditions in order to gain an advantage. This is why I love realistic terrain benefits, such as some players doing better in narrow spaces like ship passages, or steep slopes.
Others others will enjoy the freedoms of being able to take use of quick exits such as in mazes of sorts. Another play may benefit from being in a very open environment.
I am a PvE'er and have to say that PvP has killed more mmo's for me than any other factor. PvP is the reason "nerfs" exist as games try to "balance out" the classes/roles. It has always been my opinion that PvE and PvP should NEVER mix, as they are 2 very different games. They each spoil the other and cannot co-exist in the same game with any happiness amongst either environment.
City of Heroes is my favorite example of PvP ruining a game. It started out with no PvP. It worked. Well. As soon as PvP was introduced, balancing issues between roles became evident (duh!) and the nerffbat was unleashed. I left.
Check out how often the flavor of the month class changes as nerfs hit the game with each patch. Why do you think this happens?
To be clear, I do not dislike PvP. It is another way of playing online games. It is just that the two (PvE/PvP) have tried to co-exist for over a decade and there is still no solution.
Can anyone name one game that has both great PvE AND PvP? I would like to try it since there is no mutually exclusive games out there. I'm not talking "passable" games. I am talking good games. I have heard game X is great for PvP or game K is awesome for PvE, but I have not heard of a game that incorporates both in an enjoyable combination.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I don't agree with the 'Rock, Paper, Scissors' crap. I believe that's an excuse for poor 'balance' in a game.
I also think 100% balance is impossible in this genre or any other for that matter.
Let's face it, some people have better reactions, better tactics, better gear maybe, whatever.
What is important is that everyone has a 'fair chance' against another player or class.
It shouldn't matter whether you're wearing cloth, leather, plate - or if you're ranged, melee or aoe.
In a 1 vs 1 situation, each class should have the skills/tools/tactics to put up a good fight against any other class.
True balance has never really bothered me too much. I like a challenge and feel a higher sense of reward knowing I was (probably) the underdog.
What really bothers me is knowing I have absolutely no chance of winning against a certain class, nor even a chance of escaping should I need to.
The main thing that kills PvP for me is the ridiculous burst damage that can kill you in seconds, before you even have a chance to think of tactics or even withdrawal.
'One shotting' is just terribly poor game design in my opinion and there is no excuse for it.
Any fight should have options - and options can only be made if the fight is able to last beyond the blink of an eye.
We're playing MMO's here, not FPS games. Get rid of the 'HEADSHOT' mentality and give people time to think and react accordingly!
fair chance against everyone else? So lets just make an MMO with one class and only one way to spec him.
The frontload damage has gotten way out of hand in PvP mmos. And i would say it is a major reason why many MMOs fail in the end game. But a lot of that hangs on the insanity that is the gear.
You're all talking like its a single player game. I hope I dont end up in a pug with you guys.
If the pvp is based around 1v1 then all classes should have a chance...if the pvp is based around group vs group then Rock, paper, scissors.
PvP should equal that the best player win.
If a class always will lose against another that means that the game is poorly balanced 1 Vs 1. MMOs are of course also about groups versus groups and the group that co operates and play best should of course win, but that really is no excuse for having some classes severly underpowered.
Cloth healers is a typical MMO thing. D&D and most of the other games have healers in heavy armor that actually can both take and give some damage.
In fact in my regular D&D (3rd ed) group we have a cleric as main tank while my bard is the main healer and secondary tank. It is actually a lot better balanced than the average MMO,
If gear, levels, imbalance or other mechanics makes the lousiest players win more than once in a while (everyone can get lucky) the game isn't as good as it should be. And don't give me the old "it is roleplaying, my characters skills is what matters" speach.
This is the reason that PvP is 10 times as popular as PvE in FPS gaming but MMOs are the other way around.
I do not advocate FPS styled combat, MMOs is and should be slower but strategy, wits and competence should win the day, not the class you play or the fact that you farmed gear for 2 years.
Ships aren't classes in EVE. For all you know the player in the logistics ship could hop into a titan the next time you see them.
If you enjoy playing games where your actions after the creation screen have no effect on your chances at victory, there are plenty of MMOs like that. If you prefer a game where the choices you are making right now have a greater effect the outcome of a fight than the choice you made 6 months ago they have those for you as well. However your assumption of which side of the road EVE is on is wrong.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
Ships are not classes. But there are classes of ship.
you missed the point entirely and decided to read it as something else.
Someone in a Basilisk fully fitted for shield/armor rep, is not going to pick a fight with a harbinger. .
And who the hell cares if the logi pilot can fly a titan. He isnt in the titan right now, so those titan skills mean dick.
Semantics don't make an argument. There are classes of ships... which only matter so far as you need specifics skills to use them. Ships are not classes, ships are equipment.
You seem incredibly unwelcoming of any real logic into your thread. You compare classes in WoW (I make this wild assumption because you mention cloth healer, chain DPS, and "WoW" in your post) and leave out the inverse of Chain healer and Cloth DPS?
In MMOs a class is normally chosen at creation, unable to be changed later on. To decide that chain beats cloth means that every choice after that first choice at creation is null, pointless and thus unexciting. In EVE you do not choose Battlecruiser when you create your account and are thus bound to that class of ship. How you can compare EVE ship choice which is closer to a choice of armor or weapon in a fantasy MMO (which you need specific skills to use a "class" of weapon in, just as you need skills to use a "class" of ship) to a WoW Class which is completely unchangeable after being decided upon is silly.
I didn't miss your point, your point was flawed. If you want a game where "balance" doesn't mean everyone has a fair shot, go play Lineage2. EVE is not the game you seem to think it is, as any player has the chance to beat any other player given similar access to the 2 main currencies, Skill points and ISK. that flows EXACTLY the same as the (attempt) WoW has made to balance WoW so that any class can beat any other class given similar access to the 1 main currency, Gear.
Go look up videos of mining barges killing ore thiefs and frigs taking down battleships, EVE is one of the most balanced games around, far more so than WoW.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
You cannot change your class once you hit play in an MMO. But you could look at the time in the hangar as your "character creator" Since once you undock, you cannot change your fitting and i have yet to see someoen eject mid-fight, and try to enter into an empty ship.
And i can take battleships down all day too with a gang of frigs and a BS fit meant for rats.
This argument is going nowhere, but i am more than happy to put on the troll face and continue.
You could, but most wouldn't. once you undock you're stuck with that "build" for 10min, a few hours. You are comparing that to a choice that will last your entire play time in an MMO, possibly years.
I mean, maybe you are serious. But saying that the few hours you spend with a specific ship equipped is the same as the years you spend as your chosen class sure sounds like trolling.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.