Yes but some ppl are on a crusade against a game or company, often they dont even play said game. This we could sure do without.
True based on your reply I almost fall into that catagory ironicly after my post, yes your correct there will always be a core of people that talk rubbish, lie and have ill informed opinions based on lack of information, list goes on.
Most famous one i think is "its a wow clone!" , but nevertheless most post do have some atleast some fact based centiment in them, you just have to analyse and cross reference yourself based on your current opinion and extract from a post what is relevant and a rasional observation of a game.
Or even how i started my first reply ,"ridiculas and contradicitve!" there was zero malice there or intent when i worte that i was just being abrupt, now i regret my opening statement but it was my thougth at the exact moment in time.
Worse thing is to read through a elleged fanboy post and think this guy has alternative motives, be it to derail or sell something , although im sure this has happened, you just have to use your own rasional or aye you will start to get annoyed with people that sometimes just sometimes dont deserve it.
Even I get annoyed with people that dont agree with me sometimes lol , specially at work but you know i have been proven wrong.
This is purely my thoughts but.. i been on game/mmo forums for may years and i know soem hate them , but way i personaly see it , when threads turn into crap it usually isnt cause theres a fanboy for example lurking, its the people that retaliate against them.
I would assume that unless the forums are in total uproar, most ppl are ok or even happy with changes made to a game. Those few that come to forums and complain, are idd whiners. Who are they that actually think the game should be change to fit them? Being constructive is one thing, just complaining is another.
And you could be very right or very wrong. Everyone has different buttons and levels of rage. Some counter every problem. Some bottle and then explode in a super nova of rage. Even negative criticism can be constructive. You just have to be humble enough to accept the criticism professionally. It's hard when they are criticizing something you are yourself passionate about. But, it's part of the job.
Game makers have forums and they are wasted. They don't promote them. They don't encourage their use. They have an open forum straight to their customer base. A lot of companies do not. They spend millions on surveys, test groups, and meetings trying to understand what their customers want. Game companies have no idea what they have, how to use it, how to guide it into being productive, and how to control it. Most go out of their way to have forums and then go out of their way to avoid interaction with them.
The next time you see a post that you think is "just complaining", ask yourself "What are they complaining about?". By labeling discussion the way you are, you are actually just putting your own reactions, emotions, and choices ahead of theirs. If you can't try to see their side and understand it, how could you ever ASSUME to know it's just complaining?
Most famous one i think is "its a wow clone!" , but nevertheless most post do have some atleast some fact based centiment in them, you just have to analyse and cross reference yourself based on your current opinion and extract from a post what is relevant and a rasional observation of a game.
Someone else said it best.
Everything is a clone. Wow is a clone of previous games. Do people actually think every idea in WoW was created in WoW? Imitation is the greatest form of flattery. If something gets praise, it gets cloned, reskinned, or partially copied. True innovation is few and far between.
I guess it also falls on your definition of clone. A true clone is an exact copy. I've only ever seen a rare few exact clones. Most call games with copied mechanics or systems a clone. But, only parts of the game are cloned. Which, WoW is guilty of and the source of a lot of cloned systems.
I actually look at it in the reverse. Why do people constantly label every complaint or request for change as "QQ". Why do people constantly say "if you don't like it, just quit"? Which, is usually countered with "if you don't like what I have to say, ignore it" Just because someone wants something about a game changed, does not mean they don't like the game to some extent. If they truly hated it, they'd just quit without a word. Which, is not really in the best interest of the company. It leaves the company scratching it's head as to why they left and out an account/sub.
The fact that they are unhappy with something and take the time to post about it should show that they do in fact like part of the game. You have to also consider the more passionate they are about it in their post, the more they actually care. I'm not condoning depravity or constant cussing of someone or talking down to someone in general. I'm just saying, it's part of the job of the person from the company reading it to look past the emotion and try to see the issue at hand. Usually they don't, they give them infractions, and post some part of the code of conduct before ignoring what was said. In other parts of life, dealing with upset customers in text, on the phone, and face to face is part of the job.
You can't just sweep their concerns under the rug and ignore them. In other parts of life, there is better and constant competition. If most of those companies had customer service like games companies, they'd be out of business by now. It's also so very puzzling that there are so many people who jump on any player who posts a problem. Instead of explaining how something works, why their idea does not work, or asking questions about what they are saying, they jump on them with "QQ more!", "UMADBRO?", "L2P", and other insults. Doing so in a face to face meeting would end up with someone ordered to leave, a punch in the face, or other possible endings. These people are what should be getting infractions on forums. Who are they helping but themselves in some form of making themselves feel better by putting down others. Didn't we learn to get past that crap in elementary school?
In short. Grow up.
but there are many QQers who want not just a small change, they want half the game re-written to suit their desires.
"Game A doesnt do this, but Game B does! BE MORE LIKE GAME B!"
And some QQers just QQ to QQ.
Then there are the groups who flood the boards with, "My class needs this! gimme!" and since this wheel squeeks the loudest, they get the change. And then the change backfires, but its too late to go back now (see /level daoc).
Regarding forums, unless a developer rules with an iron fist, the majority of posts will be L2P, QQ, NOOB, CHUCK NORRIS, WHARGARBLE.
but there are many QQers who want not just a small change, they want half the game re-written to suit their desires.
"Game A doesnt do this, but Game B does! BE MORE LIKE GAME B!"
And some QQers just QQ to QQ.
Then there are the groups who flood the boards with, "My class needs this! gimme!" and since this wheel squeeks the loudest, they get the change. And then the change backfires, but its too late to go back now (see /level daoc).
Regarding forums, unless a developer rules with an iron fist, the majority of posts will be L2P, QQ, NOOB, CHUCK NORRIS, WHARGARBLE.
People cry just to cry? I have never understood this. Not saying it does not exist, but I have never understood it either.
Again, complaints will come in all shapes, sizes, and tones. As a professional, it's the job of the company person reading it to look at the reasons. If they use inappropriate language, demean people, etc, then discipline them. But you can't just auto ignore the problem contained within. Even if someone asks for the moon, it doesn't mean it's an auto yes or no. Maybe they have some good ideas in there or can at least point at where the problem is. The chances of your exact request being followed to the letter is almost zero. But, that does not mean there isn't a problem or that their moon request won't spur another better idea. People that brainstorm do it for a reason. No suggestion is ignored because of what it can possibly inspire someone else to come up with and so on.
If people are flooding the boards with illogical requests, which is the better choice? Spend time deleting and locking threads while ignoring them because you do not agree or opening a discussion about it and presenting your side to it. Maybe they will see it your way or maybe someone's mind will get changed. It's called a discussion for a reason. Treating customers like unintelligent children only alienates and angers them. Which, spurs more anger and negative posts. They have the power to end it. They choose not to.
An iron fist? Not so much iron as uniform and direct. It's also better to actually inform the person recieving an infraction as to why so they can try to not do it again or discuss your side of it if you disagree that your actions were in breech of the rules.
As I said in another thread, if you want your customers to act like adults, you have to treat them like adults. Treat them like children and they will show just how much of a child they can be in anger.
I think I can see the difference between a well made constructive post with backing up numbers and such and a post made of purely "waaah". But maybe I lable a lot of ppl as simply whiners because I rarely feel so strongly about a game myself. If it doesnt fit me, I just move on. Maybe
Originally posted by ormstunga I think I can see the difference between a well made constructive post with backing up numbers and such and a post made of purely "waaah". But maybe I lable a lot of ppl as simply whiners because I rarely feel so strongly about a game myself. If it doesnt fit me, I just move on. Maybe
How is it possible to put fun in numbers? In AoC i played a Necro and it was big fun but the overal direction of the class and its changes made it unfun, most people you ask that play a Necro as main will approve you (if they do know how it played b4 the changes) that the class is more and more unfun but yet the numbers do not show that and so do not the polls bcs these numbers and polls show an overall picture that is generalized and do not show or ask the details that make it a break or not.
Somtimes the math proofs the decisions of the developers to do this and change that but in context to the game it hurts the play feeling as math frequently is either abused in artificial examples to swing the nerfbat or leads to abilites that have such a subtle influence on the outcome of an encounter that they become ignored bcs of insignificance. Its not of any significance it a fight last 15 seconds or 15,2 seconds if you leave out one subtle ability while you also spare urgent abilitypoints for something else. The focus on DPS leads also to an almost single dimensional gameplay.
Now i have left AoC quite a while ago but still in the forums they argue the class needs an overhaul but then comes some idiot and shows numbers of some pvp fight and how Necros rule the Kill/Death count to proof that the nerfbat has to swing again. But so few understand that the K/D ratio has nothing to do with fun nor that the Necro is in truth a kill leacher who is not anymore since the changes the great versatile grouptool it once was. Its a single dimensional kill and dps leaching class today and in my eyes that is utterly boring.
But if you care for nice showing statistics and a very specific groupsetup that makes these stats possible than it will fit your taste.
To sum it up: Numbers show statistics but statistics do not show the funfactor!
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
If I had my way there would be a games that if it has 1 person playing it and they like it then it stays up. Anyone who causes trouble gets banned. Unfortanately that would mean 5 years and 3.2M later there is a game with everything I want in it with a population of 20 people and an annual expense of 500k+ and nobody would keep it open.
Im seeing a lot of behavior to MMOs that religion and politics sees.
Game A does this and that. player group A likes the ideas. Player group B does not. Both groups argue over what should be left in and what should be removed.
Why do gamers have such a desire to change the thoughts or position of those they dont agree with?
I do not know.
If someone likes a game that promotes grouping, there will be a bunch of people that want to convince them taht grouping games are bad, and they must be a bad person for liking a grouping game.
Why can't you just group in a solo friendly game and be happy?
That's what I like, so why don't you like that too?
What, you want a game that promotes grouping? But I don't like that! You are trying to exclude me! You must be against ME, why don't you like ME, why are you discrminating against ME with this game?
Why can't you play MY solo game and be happy?
It must be because something is wrong with YOU.
Yep, that's definitely it.
You like something different than me, so obviously something is wrong with YOU.
Don't like games that promote grouping? Don't play them. What's that got to do with YOU? Nothing.
Every game is not for every player.
Don't like games with FFA PvP?
Don't play them.
Don't like sandboxes?
Don't play them.
Don't like cash shop games?
Don't play them.
There doesn't have to be one game for EVERYONE, and there's nothing wrong with people if they don't like the game YOU do.
I think I can see the difference between a well made constructive post with backing up numbers and such and a post made of purely "waaah". But maybe I lable a lot of ppl as simply whiners because I rarely feel so strongly about a game myself. If it doesnt fit me, I just move on. Maybe
How is it possible to put fun in numbers?
In AoC i played a Necro and it was big fun but the overal direction of the class and its changes made it unfun, most people you ask that play a Necro as main will approve you (if they do know how it played b4 the changes) that the class is more and more unfun but yet the numbers do not show that and so do not the polls bcs these numbers and polls show an overall picture that is generalized and do not show or ask the details that make it a break or not.
Somtimes the math proofs the decisions of the developers to do this and change that but in context to the game it hurts the play feeling as math frequently is either abused in artificial examples to swing the nerfbat or leads to abilites that have such a subtle influence on the outcome of an encounter that they become ignored bcs of insignificance.
Its not of any significance it a fight last 15 seconds or 15,2 seconds if you leave out one subtle ability while you also spare urgent abilitypoints for something else.
The focus on DPS leads also to an almost single dimensional gameplay.
Now i have left AoC quite a while ago but still in the forums they argue the class needs an overhaul but then comes some idiot and shows numbers of some pvp fight and how Necros rule the Kill/Death count to proof that the nerfbat has to swing again.
But so few understand that the K/D ratio has nothing to do with fun nor that the Necro is in truth a kill leacher who is not anymore since the changes the great versatile grouptool it once was.
Its a single dimensional kill and dps leaching class today and in my eyes that is utterly boring.
But if you care for nice showing statistics and a very specific groupsetup that makes these stats possible than it will fit your taste.
To sum it up:
Numbers show statistics but statistics do not show the funfactor!
I said "and such". If anyone is stupid enough to nerf a class based on K/D ratio alone, that is not my problem and has nuffin to do with my post. I doubt there is such a developer out there even. I get your point, but in your entire post you made only one comment on why necro isnt fun anymore: "single dimensional gameplay". And you didnt go into any specifics. This is not what I call a well made constructive post, this is the post of a whiner. Sorry.
Im seeing a lot of behavior to MMOs that religion and politics sees.
Game A does this and that. player group A likes the ideas. Player group B does not. Both groups argue over what should be left in and what should be removed.
Why do gamers have such a desire to change the thoughts or position of those they dont agree with?
I do not know.
If someone likes a game that promotes grouping, there will be a bunch of people that want to convince them taht grouping games are bad, and they must be a bad person for liking a grouping game.
Why can't you just group in a solo friendly game and be happy?
That's what I like, so why don't you like that too?
What, you want a game that promotes grouping? But I don't like that! You are trying to exclude me! You must be against ME, why don't you like ME, why are you discrminating against ME with this game?
Why can't you play MY solo game and be happy?
It must be because something is wrong with YOU.
Yep, that's definitely it.
You like something different than me, so obviously something is wrong with YOU.
Don't like games that promote grouping? Don't play them. What's that got to do with YOU? Nothing.
Every game is not for every player.
Don't like games with FFA PvP?
Don't play them.
Don't like sandboxes?
Don't play them.
Don't like cash shop games?
Don't play them.
There doesn't have to be one game for EVERYONE, and there's nothing wrong with people if they don't like the game YOU do.
But the fact that it simply exists gets them.
Remember Howard Stern on his rise to fame? People who hated him listened to him longer and more often than those who like him.
The fact that he simply existed got people up in arms.
"Dont listen to him then."
"But... But other people will listen!"
"Who the hell are you to tell other people what they can and cant listen to?"
But as mentioned before, MMOs still lack variety.
You have your 933456^3 "F2P" games, but most of them are crap. Quality MMOs are very rare. So many people see a new MMO, read up on it, find that half the game they hate, so they bitch.
And yes ihmotepp. The "im entitled" and facebook, ME ME LOOK AT ME! mentality has certainly had an effect on how we ask for things.
Im seeing a lot of behavior to MMOs that religion and politics sees.
Game A does this and that. player group A likes the ideas. Player group B does not. Both groups argue over what should be left in and what should be removed.
Why do gamers have such a desire to change the thoughts or position of those they dont agree with?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by ormstunga Originally posted by Blutmaul
Originally posted by ormstunga I think I can see the difference between a well made constructive post with backing up numbers and such and a post made of purely "waaah". But maybe I lable a lot of ppl as simply whiners because I rarely feel so strongly about a game myself. If it doesnt fit me, I just move on. Maybe
How is it possible to put fun in numbers? In AoC i played a Necro and it was big fun but the overal direction of the class and its changes made it unfun, most people you ask that play a Necro as main will approve you (if they do know how it played b4 the changes) that the class is more and more unfun but yet the numbers do not show that and so do not the polls bcs these numbers and polls show an overall picture that is generalized and do not show or ask the details that make it a break or not. Somtimes the math proofs the decisions of the developers to do this and change that but in context to the game it hurts the play feeling as math frequently is either abused in artificial examples to swing the nerfbat or leads to abilites that have such a subtle influence on the outcome of an encounter that they become ignored bcs of insignificance. Its not of any significance it a fight last 15 seconds or 15,2 seconds if you leave out one subtle ability while you also spare urgent abilitypoints for something else. The focus on DPS leads also to an almost single dimensional gameplay. Now i have left AoC quite a while ago but still in the forums they argue the class needs an overhaul but then comes some idiot and shows numbers of some pvp fight and how Necros rule the Kill/Death count to proof that the nerfbat has to swing again. But so few understand that the K/D ratio has nothing to do with fun nor that the Necro is in truth a kill leacher who is not anymore since the changes the great versatile grouptool it once was. Its a single dimensional kill and dps leaching class today and in my eyes that is utterly boring. But if you care for nice showing statistics and a very specific groupsetup that makes these stats possible than it will fit your taste. To sum it up: Numbers show statistics but statistics do not show the funfactor! I said "and such". If anyone is stupid enough to nerf a class based on K/D ratio alone, that is not my problem and has nuffin to do with my post. I doubt there is such a developer out there even. I get your point, but in your entire post you made only one comment on why necro isnt fun anymore: "single dimensional gameplay". And you didnt go into any specifics. This is not what I call a well made constructive post, this is the post of a whiner. Sorry.
I do not make specific comment bcs i gave up on it long time ago and only wanted to show with an general example i have expereinced myself that hard numbers do not neccessarily translate into soft factors like fun. This is not the place to FIX a class!
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
Im seeing a lot of behavior to MMOs that religion and politics sees.
Game A does this and that. player group A likes the ideas. Player group B does not. Both groups argue over what should be left in and what should be removed.
Why do gamers have such a desire to change the thoughts or position of those they dont agree with?
You seem to be confusing "playing" a game with "discussing" a game.
Also, every time a company gets a box sale or a monthy payment on a game that hasn't brought anything new to the genre, it sends a message to the companies that we don't want change.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug. 12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
if you want your customers to act like adults, you have to treat them like adults.
The internet.
Because the internet was founded by children or people acting like children? Things change. It can change again. But, change does not happen if you just throw your hands in the air and give up.
Im seeing a lot of behavior to MMOs that religion and politics sees.
Game A does this and that. player group A likes the ideas. Player group B does not. Both groups argue over what should be left in and what should be removed.
Why do gamers have such a desire to change the thoughts or position of those they dont agree with?
I do not know.
If someone likes a game that promotes grouping, there will be a bunch of people that want to convince them taht grouping games are bad, and they must be a bad person for liking a grouping game.
Why can't you just group in a solo friendly game and be happy?
That's what I like, so why don't you like that too?
What, you want a game that promotes grouping? But I don't like that! You are trying to exclude me! You must be against ME, why don't you like ME, why are you discrminating against ME with this game?
Why can't you play MY solo game and be happy?
It must be because something is wrong with YOU.
Yep, that's definitely it.
You like something different than me, so obviously something is wrong with YOU.
Don't like games that promote grouping? Don't play them. What's that got to do with YOU? Nothing.
Every game is not for every player.
Don't like games with FFA PvP?
Don't play them.
Don't like sandboxes?
Don't play them.
Don't like cash shop games?
Don't play them.
There doesn't have to be one game for EVERYONE, and there's nothing wrong with people if they don't like the game YOU do.
I think the reason this is so prevelent is because we have so few good choices. Most people don't and won't find their perfect game. So, they go for the closest thing they can find and then ask for changes to suit them. If they won't change the game, you can't just jump to another game without a lot of trade off. You end up in a game that is not the one you want by a larger margin and still asking for things to change. While I know there are no perfect games and it's an exercise in futility to look for one, the lack of choices in the market make it harder to find something "close enough" that you can look past the small amount of things you don't like.
Mostly what I see are people who have no clue as to what constructive critizism is, and this relates it to whining or complaining
Complaining is where you vent but do dont present any ideas to fix what you are complaining about
"Its cold!" (complaining)
vs
"Its cold, where is my jacket" (looking for resolution)
I seen alot of post where the post shows a concern, then a course of action on what the fix action should be (constructive critizism) then the reply is that person is a complainer
Although in the US I do see alot of push back more so culture wise, that the communication of an idea or look to find a better way to do something seems to be related to whining in the last 10 or 15 years; (leave it alone and deal with it attitude)
The most whining that I DO see are people whining about whiners.....I love it! because its not constructive
Im seeing a lot of behavior to MMOs that religion and politics sees.
Game A does this and that. player group A likes the ideas. Player group B does not. Both groups argue over what should be left in and what should be removed.
Why do gamers have such a desire to change the thoughts or position of those they dont agree with?
I don't see how you could even change the though of someone, the only think you could possibly do is make him aware of something he decided to ignore, make him aware.
Isn't why people talk to each other? to share their vision of the world?
Anyways, this thread is a classic example of "A Whiner Whining About Whiners."
That is all, ladies and gents. Thanks for your time.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Also, every time a company gets a box sale or a monthy payment on a game that hasn't brought anything new to the genre, it sends a message to the companies that we don't want change.
The problem is, the people who whine the loudest about MMOs not having anything new are the ones who are subbed to the most MMOs. These people are addicted to the idea of MMOs while, at the same time, bitching about them. If they had the guts to simply not play any MMOs until there was one that they actually liked, you might get change. Instead, you get people who say "I hate your game, but here, take my money anyhow".
Mostly what I see are people who have no clue as to what constructive critizism is, and this relates it to whining or complaining
Complaining is where you vent but do dont present any ideas to fix what you are complaining about
"Its cold!" (complaining)
vs
"Its cold, where is my jacket" (looking for resolution)
I seen alot of post where the post shows a concern, then a course of action on what the fix action should be (constructive critizism) then the reply is that person is a complainer
Although in the US I do see alot of push back more so culture wise, that the communication of an idea or look to find a better way to do something seems to be related to whining in the last 10 or 15 years; (leave it alone and deal with it attitude)
The most whining that I DO see are people whining about whiners.....I love it! because its not constructive
Problem is, a lot of people might have ideas but not necessarily a working solution because they are not familiar enough with how MMOs work, from the inside, and are working with numbers that are only estimations because actual numbers are not released.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Mostly what I see are people who have no clue as to what constructive critizism is, and this relates it to whining or complaining
Complaining is where you vent but do dont present any ideas to fix what you are complaining about
"Its cold!" (complaining)
vs
"Its cold, where is my jacket" (looking for resolution)
I seen alot of post where the post shows a concern, then a course of action on what the fix action should be (constructive critizism) then the reply is that person is a complainer
Although in the US I do see alot of push back more so culture wise, that the communication of an idea or look to find a better way to do something seems to be related to whining in the last 10 or 15 years; (leave it alone and deal with it attitude)
The most whining that I DO see are people whining about whiners.....I love it! because its not constructive
So, when you see a problem, you are not allowed to say it's a problem or you are just a whiner? Not everyone who sees a problem immediately has a resolution for it. Nor should you have to have a resolution in order to report a problem. It's also not the same as venting or raging. Sharing information that you have a problem should promote discussion about the problem, it's validity(is it really a problem), and possible changes to make it not a problem or less of one.
I think the bigger problem with "stop whining" replies is that people actually condone it, accept it, and actually think it's a valid argument. Posting "QQ" after any post is usually piled on by other people spouting other memes that have nothing to do with the discussion at hand. People actually encourage it. Moderators allow it. It's to a retarded level and nothing will change until moderators actually see it for what it is and enforce their own ToS that say they prohibit it. It's basically a derrogatory remark that your opinions are not worthy of discussion. It's done to ilicit an emotional response or cause the poster to withdraw from the discussion. Which, the discussion usually does get locked or deleted once it degrades to emotional name calling and more goating by the "QQ" posters.
If that wasn't bad enough, not only do some moderators not curb this type of posting, the moderators sometimes do it themselves. I've seen moderators resort to trolling and inflammatory remarks to try to invalidate someone's issue with the game. I'm not saying moderators can't get in on obvious jokes, but they should maintain a level of professionalism. Most do not. I find this type of behavior worse than the ones that just post guidelines that don't actually pertain to the discussion as a reason to stop the discussion in fear it might not show the game or the company in a positive light.
Comments
True based on your reply I almost fall into that catagory ironicly after my post, yes your correct there will always be a core of people that talk rubbish, lie and have ill informed opinions based on lack of information, list goes on.
Most famous one i think is "its a wow clone!" , but nevertheless most post do have some atleast some fact based centiment in them, you just have to analyse and cross reference yourself based on your current opinion and extract from a post what is relevant and a rasional observation of a game.
Or even how i started my first reply ,"ridiculas and contradicitve!" there was zero malice there or intent when i worte that i was just being abrupt, now i regret my opening statement but it was my thougth at the exact moment in time.
Worse thing is to read through a elleged fanboy post and think this guy has alternative motives, be it to derail or sell something , although im sure this has happened, you just have to use your own rasional or aye you will start to get annoyed with people that sometimes just sometimes dont deserve it.
Even I get annoyed with people that dont agree with me sometimes lol , specially at work but you know i have been proven wrong.
This is purely my thoughts but.. i been on game/mmo forums for may years and i know soem hate them , but way i personaly see it , when threads turn into crap it usually isnt cause theres a fanboy for example lurking, its the people that retaliate against them.
And you could be very right or very wrong. Everyone has different buttons and levels of rage. Some counter every problem. Some bottle and then explode in a super nova of rage. Even negative criticism can be constructive. You just have to be humble enough to accept the criticism professionally. It's hard when they are criticizing something you are yourself passionate about. But, it's part of the job.
Game makers have forums and they are wasted. They don't promote them. They don't encourage their use. They have an open forum straight to their customer base. A lot of companies do not. They spend millions on surveys, test groups, and meetings trying to understand what their customers want. Game companies have no idea what they have, how to use it, how to guide it into being productive, and how to control it. Most go out of their way to have forums and then go out of their way to avoid interaction with them.
The next time you see a post that you think is "just complaining", ask yourself "What are they complaining about?". By labeling discussion the way you are, you are actually just putting your own reactions, emotions, and choices ahead of theirs. If you can't try to see their side and understand it, how could you ever ASSUME to know it's just complaining?
Someone else said it best.
Everything is a clone. Wow is a clone of previous games. Do people actually think every idea in WoW was created in WoW? Imitation is the greatest form of flattery. If something gets praise, it gets cloned, reskinned, or partially copied. True innovation is few and far between.
I guess it also falls on your definition of clone. A true clone is an exact copy. I've only ever seen a rare few exact clones. Most call games with copied mechanics or systems a clone. But, only parts of the game are cloned. Which, WoW is guilty of and the source of a lot of cloned systems.
Paraphrasing of course...
but there are many QQers who want not just a small change, they want half the game re-written to suit their desires.
"Game A doesnt do this, but Game B does! BE MORE LIKE GAME B!"
And some QQers just QQ to QQ.
Then there are the groups who flood the boards with, "My class needs this! gimme!" and since this wheel squeeks the loudest, they get the change. And then the change backfires, but its too late to go back now (see /level daoc).
Regarding forums, unless a developer rules with an iron fist, the majority of posts will be L2P, QQ, NOOB, CHUCK NORRIS, WHARGARBLE.
People cry just to cry? I have never understood this. Not saying it does not exist, but I have never understood it either.
Again, complaints will come in all shapes, sizes, and tones. As a professional, it's the job of the company person reading it to look at the reasons. If they use inappropriate language, demean people, etc, then discipline them. But you can't just auto ignore the problem contained within. Even if someone asks for the moon, it doesn't mean it's an auto yes or no. Maybe they have some good ideas in there or can at least point at where the problem is. The chances of your exact request being followed to the letter is almost zero. But, that does not mean there isn't a problem or that their moon request won't spur another better idea. People that brainstorm do it for a reason. No suggestion is ignored because of what it can possibly inspire someone else to come up with and so on.
If people are flooding the boards with illogical requests, which is the better choice? Spend time deleting and locking threads while ignoring them because you do not agree or opening a discussion about it and presenting your side to it. Maybe they will see it your way or maybe someone's mind will get changed. It's called a discussion for a reason. Treating customers like unintelligent children only alienates and angers them. Which, spurs more anger and negative posts. They have the power to end it. They choose not to.
An iron fist? Not so much iron as uniform and direct. It's also better to actually inform the person recieving an infraction as to why so they can try to not do it again or discuss your side of it if you disagree that your actions were in breech of the rules.
As I said in another thread, if you want your customers to act like adults, you have to treat them like adults. Treat them like children and they will show just how much of a child they can be in anger.
I think I can see the difference between a well made constructive post with backing up numbers and such and a post made of purely "waaah". But maybe I lable a lot of ppl as simply whiners because I rarely feel so strongly about a game myself. If it doesnt fit me, I just move on. Maybe
How is it possible to put fun in numbers?
In AoC i played a Necro and it was big fun but the overal direction of the class and its changes made it unfun, most people you ask that play a Necro as main will approve you (if they do know how it played b4 the changes) that the class is more and more unfun but yet the numbers do not show that and so do not the polls bcs these numbers and polls show an overall picture that is generalized and do not show or ask the details that make it a break or not.
Somtimes the math proofs the decisions of the developers to do this and change that but in context to the game it hurts the play feeling as math frequently is either abused in artificial examples to swing the nerfbat or leads to abilites that have such a subtle influence on the outcome of an encounter that they become ignored bcs of insignificance.
Its not of any significance it a fight last 15 seconds or 15,2 seconds if you leave out one subtle ability while you also spare urgent abilitypoints for something else.
The focus on DPS leads also to an almost single dimensional gameplay.
Now i have left AoC quite a while ago but still in the forums they argue the class needs an overhaul but then comes some idiot and shows numbers of some pvp fight and how Necros rule the Kill/Death count to proof that the nerfbat has to swing again.
But so few understand that the K/D ratio has nothing to do with fun nor that the Necro is in truth a kill leacher who is not anymore since the changes the great versatile grouptool it once was.
Its a single dimensional kill and dps leaching class today and in my eyes that is utterly boring.
But if you care for nice showing statistics and a very specific groupsetup that makes these stats possible than it will fit your taste.
To sum it up:
Numbers show statistics but statistics do not show the funfactor!
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM
If I had my way there would be a games that if it has 1 person playing it and they like it then it stays up. Anyone who causes trouble gets banned. Unfortanately that would mean 5 years and 3.2M later there is a game with everything I want in it with a population of 20 people and an annual expense of 500k+ and nobody would keep it open.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
I do not know.
If someone likes a game that promotes grouping, there will be a bunch of people that want to convince them taht grouping games are bad, and they must be a bad person for liking a grouping game.
Why can't you just group in a solo friendly game and be happy?
That's what I like, so why don't you like that too?
What, you want a game that promotes grouping? But I don't like that! You are trying to exclude me! You must be against ME, why don't you like ME, why are you discrminating against ME with this game?
Why can't you play MY solo game and be happy?
It must be because something is wrong with YOU.
Yep, that's definitely it.
You like something different than me, so obviously something is wrong with YOU.
Don't like games that promote grouping? Don't play them. What's that got to do with YOU? Nothing.
Every game is not for every player.
Don't like games with FFA PvP?
Don't play them.
Don't like sandboxes?
Don't play them.
Don't like cash shop games?
Don't play them.
There doesn't have to be one game for EVERYONE, and there's nothing wrong with people if they don't like the game YOU do.
I said "and such". If anyone is stupid enough to nerf a class based on K/D ratio alone, that is not my problem and has nuffin to do with my post. I doubt there is such a developer out there even. I get your point, but in your entire post you made only one comment on why necro isnt fun anymore: "single dimensional gameplay". And you didnt go into any specifics. This is not what I call a well made constructive post, this is the post of a whiner. Sorry.
But the fact that it simply exists gets them.
Remember Howard Stern on his rise to fame? People who hated him listened to him longer and more often than those who like him.
The fact that he simply existed got people up in arms.
"Dont listen to him then."
"But... But other people will listen!"
"Who the hell are you to tell other people what they can and cant listen to?"
But as mentioned before, MMOs still lack variety.
You have your 933456^3 "F2P" games, but most of them are crap. Quality MMOs are very rare. So many people see a new MMO, read up on it, find that half the game they hate, so they bitch.
And yes ihmotepp. The "im entitled" and facebook, ME ME LOOK AT ME! mentality has certainly had an effect on how we ask for things.
The internet.
Because it's fun to them to try and do so.
Glad I could help clear that up.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
How is it possible to put fun in numbers?
In AoC i played a Necro and it was big fun but the overal direction of the class and its changes made it unfun, most people you ask that play a Necro as main will approve you (if they do know how it played b4 the changes) that the class is more and more unfun but yet the numbers do not show that and so do not the polls bcs these numbers and polls show an overall picture that is generalized and do not show or ask the details that make it a break or not.
Somtimes the math proofs the decisions of the developers to do this and change that but in context to the game it hurts the play feeling as math frequently is either abused in artificial examples to swing the nerfbat or leads to abilites that have such a subtle influence on the outcome of an encounter that they become ignored bcs of insignificance.
Its not of any significance it a fight last 15 seconds or 15,2 seconds if you leave out one subtle ability while you also spare urgent abilitypoints for something else.
The focus on DPS leads also to an almost single dimensional gameplay.
Now i have left AoC quite a while ago but still in the forums they argue the class needs an overhaul but then comes some idiot and shows numbers of some pvp fight and how Necros rule the Kill/Death count to proof that the nerfbat has to swing again.
But so few understand that the K/D ratio has nothing to do with fun nor that the Necro is in truth a kill leacher who is not anymore since the changes the great versatile grouptool it once was.
Its a single dimensional kill and dps leaching class today and in my eyes that is utterly boring.
But if you care for nice showing statistics and a very specific groupsetup that makes these stats possible than it will fit your taste.
To sum it up:
Numbers show statistics but statistics do not show the funfactor!
I said "and such". If anyone is stupid enough to nerf a class based on K/D ratio alone, that is not my problem and has nuffin to do with my post. I doubt there is such a developer out there even. I get your point, but in your entire post you made only one comment on why necro isnt fun anymore: "single dimensional gameplay". And you didnt go into any specifics. This is not what I call a well made constructive post, this is the post of a whiner. Sorry.
I do not make specific comment bcs i gave up on it long time ago and only wanted to show with an general example i have expereinced myself that hard numbers do not neccessarily translate into soft factors like fun.
This is not the place to FIX a class!
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM
You seem to be confusing "playing" a game with "discussing" a game.
Also, every time a company gets a box sale or a monthy payment on a game that hasn't brought anything new to the genre, it sends a message to the companies that we don't want change.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Because the internet was founded by children or people acting like children? Things change. It can change again. But, change does not happen if you just throw your hands in the air and give up.
I think the reason this is so prevelent is because we have so few good choices. Most people don't and won't find their perfect game. So, they go for the closest thing they can find and then ask for changes to suit them. If they won't change the game, you can't just jump to another game without a lot of trade off. You end up in a game that is not the one you want by a larger margin and still asking for things to change. While I know there are no perfect games and it's an exercise in futility to look for one, the lack of choices in the market make it harder to find something "close enough" that you can look past the small amount of things you don't like.
Mostly what I see are people who have no clue as to what constructive critizism is, and this relates it to whining or complaining
Complaining is where you vent but do dont present any ideas to fix what you are complaining about
"Its cold!" (complaining)
vs
"Its cold, where is my jacket" (looking for resolution)
I seen alot of post where the post shows a concern, then a course of action on what the fix action should be (constructive critizism) then the reply is that person is a complainer
Although in the US I do see alot of push back more so culture wise, that the communication of an idea or look to find a better way to do something seems to be related to whining in the last 10 or 15 years; (leave it alone and deal with it attitude)
The most whining that I DO see are people whining about whiners.....I love it! because its not constructive
I don't see how you could even change the though of someone, the only think you could possibly do is make him aware of something he decided to ignore, make him aware.
Isn't why people talk to each other? to share their vision of the world?
Forum PvP is better than some MMORPGs out there.
Anyways, this thread is a classic example of "A Whiner Whining About Whiners."
That is all, ladies and gents. Thanks for your time.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Regardless of how people try to convince people that game XYZ is better due to 'stuff', the free market will run its course.
A game that should make a profit will and those that won't will not.
Capitalism at its finest.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
The free market seems to like WoW.
The problem is, the people who whine the loudest about MMOs not having anything new are the ones who are subbed to the most MMOs. These people are addicted to the idea of MMOs while, at the same time, bitching about them. If they had the guts to simply not play any MMOs until there was one that they actually liked, you might get change. Instead, you get people who say "I hate your game, but here, take my money anyhow".
These people are idiots.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Problem is, a lot of people might have ideas but not necessarily a working solution because they are not familiar enough with how MMOs work, from the inside, and are working with numbers that are only estimations because actual numbers are not released.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
So, when you see a problem, you are not allowed to say it's a problem or you are just a whiner? Not everyone who sees a problem immediately has a resolution for it. Nor should you have to have a resolution in order to report a problem. It's also not the same as venting or raging. Sharing information that you have a problem should promote discussion about the problem, it's validity(is it really a problem), and possible changes to make it not a problem or less of one.
I think the bigger problem with "stop whining" replies is that people actually condone it, accept it, and actually think it's a valid argument. Posting "QQ" after any post is usually piled on by other people spouting other memes that have nothing to do with the discussion at hand. People actually encourage it. Moderators allow it. It's to a retarded level and nothing will change until moderators actually see it for what it is and enforce their own ToS that say they prohibit it. It's basically a derrogatory remark that your opinions are not worthy of discussion. It's done to ilicit an emotional response or cause the poster to withdraw from the discussion. Which, the discussion usually does get locked or deleted once it degrades to emotional name calling and more goating by the "QQ" posters.
If that wasn't bad enough, not only do some moderators not curb this type of posting, the moderators sometimes do it themselves. I've seen moderators resort to trolling and inflammatory remarks to try to invalidate someone's issue with the game. I'm not saying moderators can't get in on obvious jokes, but they should maintain a level of professionalism. Most do not. I find this type of behavior worse than the ones that just post guidelines that don't actually pertain to the discussion as a reason to stop the discussion in fear it might not show the game or the company in a positive light.