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Crafting
Bazharkhan
Member UncommonPosts: 31
If you could improve crafting in an MMO, with the stipulation that crafting had to consist of more than just creating martial equipment (weapons, armor, clothes - generally stuff you can use to whack things/not get whacked by them), what would you include?
Comments
The first thign I would do is to allow crafting to be a mini game and not collect x amount of things and you immediatgely make one of the same items as every one else has in game.
i would make it so that one can give items certain attributes, maybe some negatives for some plusses.
I would include a deterioration for in all gear.
I would make it so that there was a smaller range between "best gear/items" and "worst gear/items". This way lesser gear isn't vendor trash.
Crafters couuld make weapons/armor/siege equipment but also clothing, potions (and I would make it so potions were not something you cuold swig during combat or at laest not while someone was beatign on you) boats, ships, fishign rods, housing and housing items, etc.
I would make it so everyone could craft but not everyone could be a master crafter.
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The problem I see is that you have different groups of people that have different interests in crafting.
Some want crafting to run the player economy and have it where nearly all items must be produced by crafters, a strong focus on interdependence.
Some want crafting as a means to make items for themselves, where nearly all steps can be done by yourself, a strong focus on independence.
I am more interested in the second type, but I can see why people may like the first type.
What I would do is place items on a spectrum from "can be used by few" to "can be used by many". For example a chestpiece that is soulbound is an item that can only be used by one person, potions can be traded but used only by one person, a mount can be traded and used by only one at a time and a ship can be traded and used by many at a time.
The fewer people that can use an item the more independent the crafting process is. So you can go adventure and craft your own armor and weapons by yourself. But the potions you are using, your multiplayer mount, guild camp etc. would require more interdependence to create.
The more items can be used by multiple people the more interdependence it requires to create it, something like a ship would require the efforts and materials from many different crafts.
The more independent self sufficient items can be produced and leveled a little more easliy than the advanced crafts which require more time investment. So more single user items require less time investment are open to most everyone and are more general, multiuser items require more time investment and are thereby more closed and are more specific.
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The fundamental problem is that crafters want non-crafters to have to buy things from crafters. Non-crafters, meanwhile, don't want to have to put up with the hassle of having to track down a crafter when they want something. So you can see the dilemma.
There are three basic answers to this that I've seen. By far the most common one is to have only a token crafting system, whose main purpose is to allow a game to claim to have crafting without getting sued for false advertising. See, for example, WoW. Or, for that matter, most other MMORPGs in existence.
The second is to basically say, everyone has to craft. But a lot of people don't like crafting, so this can limit a game's appeal. See, for example, A Tale in the Desert.
The third is to make much of crafting into a basically passive source of income. If not interested in crafting, then you can sell your labor or whatever to the "real" crafters, and then use the revenue from that to buy the crafted goods that you want. This allows crafters to sell their stuff to non-crafters, without the non-crafters being hamstrung by their not wanting to craft. See, for example, Puzzle Pirates, or Pirates of the Burning Sea.
The problem with crafting in MMOs today is that it's a side feature, not an integral part of the game.
For crafting to be good, it needs to meaningful and required. Games like UO, SWG, EVE... crafting is integral... if you want items, they are crafted. Themeparks where everything comes from loot... crafting is just a sideshow gimmick.
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EQ2 has crafting that consists of more than that. I particularly like my carpenter, but there are also provisioners and engineer types and other crafts that go beyond just armor and weapons type things.
Sovrath had some good ideas.
I do think, of the games presently on the market, that EQ2 is about the best for crafting, but that's me. I like a good mini game....none of this push one button and out pops something you supposedly "crafted."
I also like that the gear that IS crafted in EQ2 is among the best in the game. You actually "need" the mastercrafted gear until you're able to run for raid gear. And as a crafter it's nice to make "money." My provisioner (they make food and drinks) makes a small in game fortune. Things that are crafted are, by and large, needed by someone. Some things are needed by everyone....like food and drink.
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The problem with crafting is it is not given enough attention by a AAA title. I sincerely doubt it even gets the 5% of the budget one would reasonably think the minimum would be. Even then it is sort of shrugged down to the lower coders etc.
The real solution to this is to NOT have the main company SOE/Cryptic/Bioware/whatever handle the crafting AT ALL. If you have a 100 million dollar budget for your game -- take 3 million out and hire a company to handle the crafting. There are many smaller game companies that would JUMP at that kind of opportunity. And since crafting would be their entire focus, they would give it their all. The entire effort of an A or AA game devoted entirely to the crafting aspect of a game could create something truly breathtaking.
FFXIV does it how I want it. Say you wanted to make a sword. The hilt of it was made from carpenters, and the blade from blacksmiths. You have to buy one part from another crafter if you don't have that craft leveled, which really tried to make a great community inside the crafters. They're needed to repair players gear as well (NPC's only repair to 75%, and they're expensive). And with the new materia system, crafters are needed to insert it into gear. And there's none of this questing gear is OP compared to the same ranked crafted gear, either.
Talking about it makes me hope they get FFXIV on track soon.
I would make SWG's crafting system a little better and that would do it for me. I love how you have to survey for resources. Then you put down a harvester, pay maintenance on it, and give it power before it will work for you. And all of that is before you even start crafting. If SWG devs would tweak their crafting system a little more, it would be amazing.
I wish all MMO's crafting was useful like Lotro. Lotro crafting itself isn't awesome, but you are actually useful as a crafter in that game. You don't see that very much in todays MMO's.
Add the ability to craft items that would change the world around you. For example, houses and other types of structures. Crafting large or complex items should also require teamwork. No one person should be able to acquire all of the necessary skills to do it alone.
Ermm, Vanguard and ArcheAge for teamwork Crafting.
Sometimes i wonder what games some of these MMO gamers have been playing..
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Something like alchemy in warhammer, it was fun
Archeage isnt out yet is it? Sometimes I wonder what some of these posters have been smoking... O_o
Crafters should be making everything in the game. They're the ones that should be filling the markets with goods that other players buy. NPC traders run the stalls 24/7, and players can run stalls as well for those who enjoy being a merchant. The goal is to have players craft and consume, but not require the consumers to go find a flippin' crafter when they want something. EVE Online demonstrates how that can work.
Crafting itself should be a full game experience that requires player skill (as should combat). The net result of crafting would still be standard items with variable traits, but the traits of the items would be a result of the player's skill. A Tale in the Desert did this very thing with blacksmithing. You'd have an object that you were trying to make, and you'd start with a lump of material. You'd strike the material (click on a spot) to shape it, and when you were happy with the shaping, the game would rate the quality of the item you crafted. That process could get very involved, including multiple steps, each requiring skill from the player.
Another example from A Tale in the Desert is the charcoal oven. Feed the oven fire with wood, fiddle with the air supply and try to keep the temperature just right for the required amount of time - while at the same time try to avoid using too much wood to stoke the fire. It may not be a mainstream crafting task, but it's the sort of player skill that I'd like to see involved in crafting at the low end.
In case it wasn't obvious in the first paragraph, a game needs to have systems that involve various types of gear if crafters are going to make various types of gear. Introducing bridge building isn't too interesting if nobody ever needs a bridge. The game would have to be structured such that players would want bridges from time to time. Also, if the game doesn't have an interesting fishing game, then there's no need for crafters to make fishing gear. And so on. The game needs the systems that use gear so the crafters can make it. The systems cannot exist just so the crafters have stuff to craft; the systems themselves must be interesting to players.
In my ideal MMO, everything in the game would be craftable - equipment, buildings, dungeons, landscapes, monsters.
If its in the game, a player can make it.
Some great ideas are already listed but here are a couple additions:
Questlines to get special recipes
Broker type contract system at the local artisan hall. You give materials, tip and request over to the bulletin board type system where crafters can accept them. Once the item is crafted it is turned back over to the system so the crafter can receive the tip and a reputation score based upon how long it took to make and the grade of item if applicable. The reputation score could affect anything from access to special recipes or cut off from contract system if it gets too low.
I agree that crafting does not have enough focus in most MMOs.
Edit: I am a creationist. I don't believe in the evolution of fine weapons or armor inside a monsters belly. Instead I think all mobs should drop something of use (meat, skin, bones, essence, etc.) that can be crafted. The only exception to this would be something that actually carries what they are supposed to be dropping. Kill a boss dragon? A horde of materials is yours to distribute that can be made into items, a handful for use in "epic" items. I think this along with a contract system would be great.
Just not worth my time anymore.
To answer your basic question, the more the better.
food
dress clothing, curtains, rugs and carpets
attachments to clothing such as stitched insignias, braided loops, stitched symbols, etc.
constructions (wide ranging from castles to sign posts, from water wells to damns and bridges)
furniture
statues and decorative objects, stand alone as well as attachments
utensils (forks and plates, pots and pans)
containers (packs, crates, barrels, jewelry boxes, etc.)
tools of the trades
mechanical parts (levers and gears, etc., for players to assemble working drawbridges and levers for doors, locks, traps, spinning floors, etc.)
attachments to objects, secret levers and compartments
books, tomes, scrolls
paintings
reliefs and carvings/script on stone
pottery
wax seals and identification stamps
Alchemy, brewing
All of this isn't as code intensive at it might seem at first.
If you already have code to make a sword, it's an easy substitution to change that to a mechanical component. And if you already have scripts in the game that sends a message to another object (such as magical attacks) it's an easy substitution to send from a lever to a drawbridge.
Where it does get more intensive is in the art required, and any animations you might include.
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Consumables (Magic Potions, Bandages, whatever)
Magic Books, Scrolls, Wands, etc
Adventurer equipment
Houses in all kinds of forms (wizard tower, palace, floating cloud castle etc)
House equipment of all kinds (tables, mailbox, alchemist laboratory, smithery etc)
Ships
Siege Weapons (if the game would include castle sieges like Lineage 2 has them)
Hmm thats what I can think of right now.
About designing crafting, thats nothing I can answer out of the top of my head. Theres so much stuff to think about. Generally you want crafters to be unique and have their own advantages.
Personally I'm no longer in favor of having crafting as a separate sphere. Had it in Vanguard and felt forced to level all six crafter jobs. It just plainly sucks.
As far as I'm concerned, SWG got crafting 100% right.
The only improvement i can think of is adding an actualy skill-based component. The same way you have 20 adventureres strugging for an hour to defeat a monster for awesome loot, you should be able to have somethign that takes the combined efforts and gameplay skills of multiple crafters to create something awesome. For lack of a better term, "raiding for crafters".
And of course once crafting is made skill-based, it should be mixed with adventuring. I want an experience where I don't just need Tanks, Healers and Damage Dealers, i want to also need a Blacksmith and a Diplomat and Jester to succeed. THAT would be awesome.
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You hit the nail on the head on this one, especially UO (1998-2001). In UO, there werent any auction houses. You found player made equipment on players vendors. Once you found a good crafter you marked a rune to his house and go there when you needed something.
I made a pure crafter for just that reason. GM Tinkerer, GM Tailor, GM Blacksmith, GM Miner and I mastered hiding for him when he mined. You couldnt GM everything, because you only had so many points to play with. Ahhhh..the memories of the good ole days. Thanks
Nice ideas. I liked it when crafters had a role during the destruction of Restuss in SWG. They had to craft items for their faction during the war effort. SOE should have capitalized on that idea, but dropped the ball once again.
The crafting in classic SWG is the best of all games i have played, better than EQ2, Vanguard, Istaria, EvE etc.
It had one flaw, that was the resources at some point become unusable bcs of the random attributes each resource got when generated.
That is ok but it had a problem:
You ever had huge numbers of leftover resources you could not mix with similar resources bcs of the different random numbers.
I dont know if they ever changed it but the solution is to enable crafters make a pool of similar leftover resources and adjust the attributes appropriately to the amount of each resource in the pool so you get a usable amount of resources out of it again and must not waste it.
Its not only the crafting mechanics that made classic SWG crafting that good but the harvesting was the best of all games.
Not wasting time to hit stones over and over again with a pickaxe but exploring, prospecting the areal looking for god spots setting up your harvesters was a great gameplay.
Also the vendor system was great - show off your stuff in the public vendors everyone could access and lead them to your personal shop.
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OP, See this thread here for my response
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4229596#4229596