I think there are a lot of astute observations in this thread and I can understand where most people are coming from. I am giving Vanguard a 2nd chance and am joining the crusade to try and breathe new life into this game. I understand some of you have no faith in SOE and are content to believe the game is "dead." Those of you who feel that way are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I don't understand the sentiment of trying to impede this crusade or discourage people from getting involved again.
I hadn't really considered the Station Access thing much. I guess a lot of people probably use that and when looking at the choice of games available it's easy to understand why you choose a game that is currently getting development and support. I think the issue for Vanguard then is less about subscriptions and more about how many people are logging-in and playing. When you have less than 1000 (just guessing here based on population numbers I've seen) people actively playing it's going to be hard to justify paying developers to spend their time on it when other games with much healthy populations are demanding their attention.
All Vanguard needs is more people logging-in and playing. You're paying for access to a virtual world where you can play with other people. Whether that's worth $15 to you or not is a personal decision. I spend that on lunch somedays so for me it's an easy decision.
There are a growing number of us, some old and some new, who want to see Vanguard more populated and receive developer attention again. We recognize that currently SOE doesn't have much interest in the game. We are accepting the responsibility as a community to get the word out and do what we can to grow the community ourselves. If our crusade fails, so be it, but we're going to try. We believe Vanguard is a better game than anything else out there and is worth the effort. If you can't be persuaded to join us or have no interest for whatever reason that is fine but please don't impede our efforts for the sake of being spiteful.
Vanguard is a truly great game and given some population growth and even minimal developer support it will only get better.
You are right it is not about the money. i use station pass and i have access to all SOE games and yet i never log in to Vanguard. When i have such well supported games like EQ2 and SWG why would i bother playing Vanguard which has zero content patches or updates? if i know that this game has some future i will surely spend my time playing it, otherwise no thank you.
Vanguard has the future that we, the players, carve out for it. It's a game that is still newbie-friendly, ahs players all across the level range instad of all stacked at the level cap, and enough content that even players who have been playing since launch have years worth of stuff to do yet. SOE's lack of focus on it is regrettable and short-sighted on their part, but ultimately any MMO is about the experience that players have in in.
We as a community need to get away from the WoW cycle that everything in an MMO must be spoonfed to us by developers. We need to take charge.
You are right it is not about the money. i use station pass and i have access to all SOE games and yet i never log in to Vanguard. When i have such well supported games like EQ2 and SWG why would i bother playing Vanguard which has zero content patches or updates? if i know that this game has some future i will surely spend my time playing it, otherwise no thank you.
Vanguard has the future that we, the players, carve out for it. It's a game that is still newbie-friendly, ahs players all across the level range instad of all stacked at the level cap, and enough content that even players who have been playing since launch have years worth of stuff to do yet. SOE's lack of focus on it is regrettable and short-sighted on their part, but ultimately any MMO is about the experience that players have in in.
We as a community need to get away from the WoW cycle that everything in an MMO must be spoonfed to us by developers. We need to take charge.
Simply no. The future of Vanguard is in hand of SOE and no matter what players do a MMO can not thrive or grow without new content addition, support of devs and healthy community. What you are saying might be nice to read but has zero practical value.
Simply no. The future of Vanguard is in hand of SOE and no matter what players do a MMO can not thrive or grow without new content addition, support of devs and healthy community. What you are saying might be nice to read but has zero practical value.
What you're saying is absolutely the conventional wisdom, and I don't doubt that it's true for a majority of players. But it's also true that we have been conditioned to think that because that's the way things have always been. The question I am ultimately asking is: what happens when the developer gets out of the way?
Community is influenced by a game's design (for two examples at opposite ends of the community quality spectrum, look at Age of Conan and LotRO,) but isn't strengthened by new content streams. A case can be made that the strrength of a community is in fact eroded by an ongoing nerf/buff cycle and high-handed interference by developers, or by diminishing of player accomlishment by making things easier. I decline to name any particular title in which that's happened, but I'm sure you can think of one or several.
Imagine SWG without the CU and NGE. Imagine vanilla WoW or EQ in the days of Kunark, in 2011. Such things might not be mainstream hits, but there are absolutely folks who would go for that kind of environment. This was amply demonstrated when EQ launched a server under a pseudo-classic ruleset and people fell all over each other to get on it. What two MMOs this year saw multi-hour queues to log in? Rift and EverQuest. There is a market for old school.
I'm sure you're right that the progression-focused majority feel exactly as you've expressed. But there's also players here and there who'll feel liberated by a lack of developer interference and gear grind, or who value a tight community where everybody knows everybody and reputation matters, or rich non-combat systems and progression paths, or a lore-heavy classic fantasy world ideal for immersion. Those are people that Vanguard can appeal to. And I suspect that, niche or not, there's enough of them to change Vanguard's trajectory, if they can be mobilized.
It would be fair to argue that the only reason this is possible for Vanguard is becuase the bar is set so low. But that actually enhances my point. If the game is viable now (and it is) it will be twice as viable with twice as many players, and the lower that viability number is today the easier it'll be to amplfy.
You could also dismiss all this as meaningless and empty rhetoric. And you'd have again made a point, because the Vanguard Forever movement is built on rhetoric. But you'd also be admitting that you are not the person I am talking to. I don't need or expect to convince everybody. But you know what? I've already convinced some people. It's moving. Can't you feel it?
Simply no. The future of Vanguard is in hand of SOE and no matter what players do a MMO can not thrive or grow without new content addition, support of devs and healthy community. What you are saying might be nice to read but has zero practical value.
What you're saying is absolutely the conventional wisdom, and I don't doubt that it's true for a majority of players. But it's also true that we have been conditioned to think that because that's the way things have always been. The question I am ultimately asking is: what happens when the developer gets out of the way?
Community is influenced by a game's design (for two examples at opposite ends of the community quality spectrum, look at Age of Conan and LotRO,) but isn't strengthened by new content streams. A case can be made that the strrength of a community is in fact eroded by an ongoing nerf/buff cycle and high-handed interference by developers, or by diminishing of player accomlishment by making things easier. I decline to name any particular title in which that's happened, but I'm sure you can think of one or several.
Imagine SWG without the CU and NGE. Imagine vanilla WoW or EQ in the days of Kunark, in 2011. Such things might not be mainstream hits, but there are absolutely folks who would go for that kind of environment. This was amply demonstrated when EQ launched a server under a pseudo-classic ruleset and people fell all over each other to get on it. What two MMOs this year saw multi-hour queues to log in? Rift and EverQuest. There is a market for old school.
I'm sure you're right that the progression-focused majority feel exactly as you've expressed. But there's also players here and there who'll feel liberated by a lack of developer interference and gear grind, or who value a tight community where everybody knows everybody and reputation matters, or rich non-combat systems and progression paths, or a lore-heavy classic fantasy world ideal for immersion. Those are people that Vanguard can appeal to. And I suspect that, niche or not, there's enough of them to change Vanguard's trajectory, if they can be mobilized.
It would be fair to argue that the only reason this is possible for Vanguard is becuase the bar is set so low. But that actually enhances my point. If the game is viable now (and it is) it will be twice as viable with twice as many players, and the lower that viability number is today the easier it'll be to amplfy.
You could also dismiss all this as meaningless and empty rhetoric. And you'd have again made a point, because the Vanguard Forever movement is built on rhetoric. But you'd also be admitting that you are not the person I am talking to. I don't need or expect to convince everybody. But you know what? I've already convinced some people. It's moving. Can't you feel it?
Nope sorry i don't feel it. To give it a benefit of doubt i spent one last week playing Vanguard and yes the same old feeling creeps up where i feel i am playing a single player game not a MMO.
Only because devs would support their game doesn't mean it will become gear grind or that is the only thing players would begin to focuse upon. However, those things are of later concern. the first and foremost important thing that keeps players away is lack of support and development. it might not matter for a single player game but it is not true for MMORPG. Players have different expectation from this genre and if a MMO is not supported or does not recieve continuous updates and content it just becomes stagnant.
This isn't the first time there has been some player driven effort to change vanguard and there have actually been some big ones.
I do wish the game all the best, but it isn't going to rebound as things are going now. There is just something missing, even for those willing to overlook the issues. At this point any revival requires a developer supporting the game, even if only to give the impression that things can get corrected and players willing to join in large enough numbers to populate the world.
SOE has already shown that they are not willing to support the game any longer. Even when the game had 4 servers filled with players they were already sunsetting the support team.
Maybe if the players trying to revive the game have a more comprehensive plan than forming a guild and making the occassional groups something might come of it, but I don't see how it will be any different than past attempts.
Sorry if I sound like a little black rain cloud, but I think that is the reality of it. I will be reloading the game in the near future just so I can enjoy it again in case it closes down soon. Maybe I'm wrong and players do find a way to revive the population and I can enjoy it a little longer.
This isn't the first time there has been some player driven effort to change vanguard and there have actually been some big ones.
I do wish the game all the best, but it isn't going to rebound as things are going now. There is just something missing, even for those willing to overlook the issues. At this point any revival requires a developer supporting the game, even if only to give the impression that things can get corrected and players willing to join in large enough numbers to populate the world.
SOE has already shown that they are not willing to support the game any longer. Even when the game had 4 servers filled with players they were already sunsetting the support team.
Maybe if the players trying to revive the game have a more comprehensive plan than forming a guild and making the occassional groups something might come of it, but I don't see how it will be any different than past attempts.
Sorry if I sound like a little black rain cloud, but I think that is the reality of it. I will be reloading the game in the near future just so I can enjoy it again in case it closes down soon. Maybe I'm wrong and players do find a way to revive the population and I can enjoy it a little longer.
You do sound like a little black rain cloud. This sort of defeatist attitude only serves to perpetuate the status quo. You may be right, you may be able to post again in a few months or a year or whenever and say "told you so," but this sort of rhetoric will not help the game or the community.
I'm not trying to rip on you, I totally understand the sentiment. SOE as a company just boggles my mind. They routinely make horrible decisions that only hurt their business and dishearten their fans. I could post pages of why I dislike them as a company.
I am making a very conscious decision to look beyond all my frustration with them as a company because in the quagmire of lackluster MMOs that currently exist and the bastardized versions of games that we once loved I believe Vanguard stands out. I believe it's worth the effort. Most importantly I just really enjoy the time I'm spending there, and believe many others would too if they could look past the issues. I feel these issues pale in comparison the issues with most of our current alternatives.
Again I can totally relate to those of you who don't want to get on board or who are fed up with SOE. I get it. Some of us are making the choice to try to do something positive with a game we feel is worth our time and effort. As a gamer and someone passionate about MMORPGs I would look back with regret for not trying. It's the best thing I can do short of walking into the SOE offices and Hulk-raging MRRAAAAGGGGHHHH which admittedly is a tempting alternative.
I just started playing last night, so i don't have an opinion on content (hoping the stories of years of content for a new player are true). personally i have been mmo hopping lately since there is really nothing good out right now and am looking for a game to keep me interested until GW2 or secret world comes out. So far this game seems cool and having no zones is a big plus. I am still working on tweaking the setting so it will run smooth on my computer but overall i am pretty impressed with the graphics and gameplay. The last game i played was everquest 2 and just began to realize that the combat sytem was really bland in that game (hoping vanguards is better). as far as population.....obviously it's low, I am on the island, I did a /who and got about 22 players in levels ranging from 1-10 (ish) when I logged off last night around 11:30pm pst. I actually saw 2-3 other players in the starting zone when I was playing (like i said though, this is just the very beginning, i am only level 5 right now)...I am gonna give this game my full attention for the next 14 days and if it grabs me I will likely sub.
You do sound like a little black rain cloud. This sort of defeatist attitude only serves to perpetuate the status quo. You may be right, you may be able to post again in a few months or a year or whenever and say "told you so," but this sort of rhetoric will not help the game or the community.
Yeah my message might be one on the pessimistic side, but the real point I'm trying to get across is that repeating the same efforts that have failed in the past will most likely have the same results. That will just turn away the few people willing to give it another try.
If you really want to put effort into another attempt at revival I sugget figuring out what went wrong in previous attempts and see if there is a solution to those issues.
Bugs and coding- Bugs are mostly fixed, sorry this is a fact !......Coding and playability problems ? Well change your settings from default " balanced " to " High Performance " and Vanguard will play crisp and clean on a calculator.
I'm sorry, but this is plain false. I can find more bugs on the VG trial Isle than I have ever experienced in any other MMO. You choosing to ignore or tolerate an excessive amount of bugs does not mean they are fixed. I used to gladly tolerate them, but after SOE pulled almost the entire dev team to work on EQ2, I no longer feel the need to pay for a game that will never be fixed and never get new content.
Comments
I think there are a lot of astute observations in this thread and I can understand where most people are coming from. I am giving Vanguard a 2nd chance and am joining the crusade to try and breathe new life into this game. I understand some of you have no faith in SOE and are content to believe the game is "dead." Those of you who feel that way are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I don't understand the sentiment of trying to impede this crusade or discourage people from getting involved again.
I hadn't really considered the Station Access thing much. I guess a lot of people probably use that and when looking at the choice of games available it's easy to understand why you choose a game that is currently getting development and support. I think the issue for Vanguard then is less about subscriptions and more about how many people are logging-in and playing. When you have less than 1000 (just guessing here based on population numbers I've seen) people actively playing it's going to be hard to justify paying developers to spend their time on it when other games with much healthy populations are demanding their attention.
All Vanguard needs is more people logging-in and playing. You're paying for access to a virtual world where you can play with other people. Whether that's worth $15 to you or not is a personal decision. I spend that on lunch somedays so for me it's an easy decision.
There are a growing number of us, some old and some new, who want to see Vanguard more populated and receive developer attention again. We recognize that currently SOE doesn't have much interest in the game. We are accepting the responsibility as a community to get the word out and do what we can to grow the community ourselves. If our crusade fails, so be it, but we're going to try. We believe Vanguard is a better game than anything else out there and is worth the effort. If you can't be persuaded to join us or have no interest for whatever reason that is fine but please don't impede our efforts for the sake of being spiteful.
Vanguard is a truly great game and given some population growth and even minimal developer support it will only get better.
Vanguard has the future that we, the players, carve out for it. It's a game that is still newbie-friendly, ahs players all across the level range instad of all stacked at the level cap, and enough content that even players who have been playing since launch have years worth of stuff to do yet. SOE's lack of focus on it is regrettable and short-sighted on their part, but ultimately any MMO is about the experience that players have in in.
We as a community need to get away from the WoW cycle that everything in an MMO must be spoonfed to us by developers. We need to take charge.
Ardwulf's Lair | Ardwulf's YouTube Channel | Ardwulf on Twitter
Simply no. The future of Vanguard is in hand of SOE and no matter what players do a MMO can not thrive or grow without new content addition, support of devs and healthy community. What you are saying might be nice to read but has zero practical value.
What you're saying is absolutely the conventional wisdom, and I don't doubt that it's true for a majority of players. But it's also true that we have been conditioned to think that because that's the way things have always been. The question I am ultimately asking is: what happens when the developer gets out of the way?
Community is influenced by a game's design (for two examples at opposite ends of the community quality spectrum, look at Age of Conan and LotRO,) but isn't strengthened by new content streams. A case can be made that the strrength of a community is in fact eroded by an ongoing nerf/buff cycle and high-handed interference by developers, or by diminishing of player accomlishment by making things easier. I decline to name any particular title in which that's happened, but I'm sure you can think of one or several.
Imagine SWG without the CU and NGE. Imagine vanilla WoW or EQ in the days of Kunark, in 2011. Such things might not be mainstream hits, but there are absolutely folks who would go for that kind of environment. This was amply demonstrated when EQ launched a server under a pseudo-classic ruleset and people fell all over each other to get on it. What two MMOs this year saw multi-hour queues to log in? Rift and EverQuest. There is a market for old school.
I'm sure you're right that the progression-focused majority feel exactly as you've expressed. But there's also players here and there who'll feel liberated by a lack of developer interference and gear grind, or who value a tight community where everybody knows everybody and reputation matters, or rich non-combat systems and progression paths, or a lore-heavy classic fantasy world ideal for immersion. Those are people that Vanguard can appeal to. And I suspect that, niche or not, there's enough of them to change Vanguard's trajectory, if they can be mobilized.
It would be fair to argue that the only reason this is possible for Vanguard is becuase the bar is set so low. But that actually enhances my point. If the game is viable now (and it is) it will be twice as viable with twice as many players, and the lower that viability number is today the easier it'll be to amplfy.
You could also dismiss all this as meaningless and empty rhetoric. And you'd have again made a point, because the Vanguard Forever movement is built on rhetoric. But you'd also be admitting that you are not the person I am talking to. I don't need or expect to convince everybody. But you know what? I've already convinced some people. It's moving. Can't you feel it?
Ardwulf's Lair | Ardwulf's YouTube Channel | Ardwulf on Twitter
Nope sorry i don't feel it. To give it a benefit of doubt i spent one last week playing Vanguard and yes the same old feeling creeps up where i feel i am playing a single player game not a MMO.
Only because devs would support their game doesn't mean it will become gear grind or that is the only thing players would begin to focuse upon. However, those things are of later concern. the first and foremost important thing that keeps players away is lack of support and development. it might not matter for a single player game but it is not true for MMORPG. Players have different expectation from this genre and if a MMO is not supported or does not recieve continuous updates and content it just becomes stagnant.
This isn't the first time there has been some player driven effort to change vanguard and there have actually been some big ones.
I do wish the game all the best, but it isn't going to rebound as things are going now. There is just something missing, even for those willing to overlook the issues. At this point any revival requires a developer supporting the game, even if only to give the impression that things can get corrected and players willing to join in large enough numbers to populate the world.
SOE has already shown that they are not willing to support the game any longer. Even when the game had 4 servers filled with players they were already sunsetting the support team.
Maybe if the players trying to revive the game have a more comprehensive plan than forming a guild and making the occassional groups something might come of it, but I don't see how it will be any different than past attempts.
Sorry if I sound like a little black rain cloud, but I think that is the reality of it. I will be reloading the game in the near future just so I can enjoy it again in case it closes down soon. Maybe I'm wrong and players do find a way to revive the population and I can enjoy it a little longer.
You do sound like a little black rain cloud. This sort of defeatist attitude only serves to perpetuate the status quo. You may be right, you may be able to post again in a few months or a year or whenever and say "told you so," but this sort of rhetoric will not help the game or the community.
I'm not trying to rip on you, I totally understand the sentiment. SOE as a company just boggles my mind. They routinely make horrible decisions that only hurt their business and dishearten their fans. I could post pages of why I dislike them as a company.
I am making a very conscious decision to look beyond all my frustration with them as a company because in the quagmire of lackluster MMOs that currently exist and the bastardized versions of games that we once loved I believe Vanguard stands out. I believe it's worth the effort. Most importantly I just really enjoy the time I'm spending there, and believe many others would too if they could look past the issues. I feel these issues pale in comparison the issues with most of our current alternatives.
Again I can totally relate to those of you who don't want to get on board or who are fed up with SOE. I get it. Some of us are making the choice to try to do something positive with a game we feel is worth our time and effort. As a gamer and someone passionate about MMORPGs I would look back with regret for not trying. It's the best thing I can do short of walking into the SOE offices and Hulk-raging MRRAAAAGGGGHHHH which admittedly is a tempting alternative.
I just started playing last night, so i don't have an opinion on content (hoping the stories of years of content for a new player are true). personally i have been mmo hopping lately since there is really nothing good out right now and am looking for a game to keep me interested until GW2 or secret world comes out. So far this game seems cool and having no zones is a big plus. I am still working on tweaking the setting so it will run smooth on my computer but overall i am pretty impressed with the graphics and gameplay. The last game i played was everquest 2 and just began to realize that the combat sytem was really bland in that game (hoping vanguards is better). as far as population.....obviously it's low, I am on the island, I did a /who and got about 22 players in levels ranging from 1-10 (ish) when I logged off last night around 11:30pm pst. I actually saw 2-3 other players in the starting zone when I was playing (like i said though, this is just the very beginning, i am only level 5 right now)...I am gonna give this game my full attention for the next 14 days and if it grabs me I will likely sub.
Yeah my message might be one on the pessimistic side, but the real point I'm trying to get across is that repeating the same efforts that have failed in the past will most likely have the same results. That will just turn away the few people willing to give it another try.
If you really want to put effort into another attempt at revival I sugget figuring out what went wrong in previous attempts and see if there is a solution to those issues.
I'm sorry, but this is plain false. I can find more bugs on the VG trial Isle than I have ever experienced in any other MMO. You choosing to ignore or tolerate an excessive amount of bugs does not mean they are fixed. I used to gladly tolerate them, but after SOE pulled almost the entire dev team to work on EQ2, I no longer feel the need to pay for a game that will never be fixed and never get new content.