Meh. Since these games have just become grown up, digital, cowboys and indians, the whole concept of death penalty seems a moot point these days.
Yeah. After playing EVE I realized that the severity of death penalty was proportional to the excitement I experienced in pvp. Cold sweat and shaking hands, sometimes so severe that I had to take a step back from the game right after an encounter to get back to my senses. And that was mainly me being the assaulting party so most of the times I even saw it coming >_<
Would be cool to have a slightly steeper death penalty on pvp servers in my opinion. Doesn't need to be full loot though. A very expensive equipment tick, a nasty debuff and a rapidly increasing res timer would help a lot in making dying something which you really want to avoid.
In WAR and AoC the low penalties always bothered me. People even purposely jumped of cliffs or drowned in order to fast travel to the res pad in AoC. In WAR RVR was a huge res and zerg fest where everyone died tens of times in an hour without any mentionable negative consequences. Meh. Somehow WOW always felt more severe in the death department than those two.
Really hope Bioware won't go the lenient, hand holding way.
Oh man that brought back memories, shaky hands while on the hunt in EVE was crazy and exhilarating. I dunno if I could handle that in SW LOL, but it would be a blast!
I hope some of You do realize that death penalty in MMO games needs ot be actually part of mechanics? The more punishing the death is supposed to be, the more gameplay needs to support it.
Look at WoW. You have to raid with 9/19 other people to get a decent piece of gear, or spend hours of playing arena to get the rating for a nice piece of loot. If death meant loss of those toys - it would be just annoyance. Annoyance that would drive players away from the game.
Now look at EVE. You loose a ship in pvp/pve - you buy a new one, because they are accessible, ther eis plenty of them around, they do not take days to get and are not depndant on RNG loot drops. You can easily replace everything you loose in EVE because everything is avalible. Sure the more expensive the toy the more the loss of it will hurt but it's still wihin your reach (of course unless you decide to spend all your money on single, pimped ship and then loose it, but that's just ignorance bordering on studpity). You don't get locked out for weeks possibly just because you lost tech2 fitted ship.
Crafting and general PvE drop systems need to both spport death penalties based on item loss. If majority of worthwhile gear is based around random, group content drops then such penalties make no sense whatsoever, because all it would achieve is wasting players time.
ToR simply is not , by design, built around harsh death penalties. Changing that would require redesigning the whole game concept, from scratch including complete rebalancing of everything from leveling through pvp, group pve all the way to end game.
I hope some of You do realize that death penalty in MMO games needs ot be actually part of mechanics? The more punishing the death is supposed to be, the more gameplay needs to support it.
Look at WoW. You have to raid with 9/19 other people to get a decent piece of gear, or spend hours of playing arena to get the rating for a nice piece of loot. If death meant loss of those toys - it would be just annoyance. Annoyance that would drive players away from the game.
Now look at EVE. You loose a ship in pvp/pve - you buy a new one, because they are accessible, ther eis plenty of them around, they do not take days to get and are not depndant on RNG loot drops. You can easily replace everything you loose in EVE because everything is avalible. Sure the more expensive the toy the more the loss of it will hurt but it's still wihin your reach (of course unless you decide to spend all your money on single, pimped ship and then loose it, but that's just ignorance bordering on studpity). You don't get locked out for weeks possibly just because you lost tech2 fitted ship.
Crafting and general PvE drop systems need to both spport death penalties based on item loss. If majority of worthwhile gear is based around random, group content drops then such penalties make no sense whatsoever, because all it would achieve is wasting players time.
ToR simply is not , by design, built around harsh death penalties. Changing that would require redesigning the whole game concept, from scratch including complete rebalancing of everything from leveling through pvp, group pve all the way to end game.
How easy or hard it would be to implement entirely depends on what our definition of a 'harsh death penalty' would be.
'Harsh' without player loot but with a steep durability hit and expensive repair bill on your gear and lengthy corpse runs / long timers isn't something which is so very hard to adjust most games to in my opinion.
Actually losing stuff when dying is a different matter though and you would be right by saying that a game needs to be designed around a gear sink like that.
in eve you have to grind to pvp. as a pvp'er, i didnt like this. if youre with a good squad, losing a ship is rare. but over the last year, small gang fights have been phased out by CCP not giving a damn about ship balancing and blobs, so that feature is definitely out.
games like TOR and WoW are essentially designed around grinding the best gear possible so death penalty cant be harsh.
There can't be harsh death penalty because people don't have time nowdays. I'm probaply average MMO player nowdays with job and gf having about max 25 hrs to spent playing per week if I'm lucky. Since majority of my age have already kids they have even less time to spent. Now imagine how happy average player would be if spending half of that time to achieve something would lose it in few minutes. I think one way to satisfy PvP would be having poker system where players need to deposit money to take part on PvP event.
It should be even softer, but this'll do. I bet they'll add significan equipment damage if you die and now we don't have soft death penalty but rather very harsh and that'll be against theri offline RPG thingy.
It should be even softer, but this'll do. I bet they'll add significan equipment damage if you die and now we don't have soft death penalty but rather very harsh and that'll be against theri offline RPG thingy.
I'm going to put in a request on your behalf that we actually gain a new level if we die. lol
It should be even softer, but this'll do. I bet they'll add significan equipment damage if you die and now we don't have soft death penalty but rather very harsh and that'll be against theri offline RPG thingy.
I'm going to put in a request on your behalf that we actually gain a new level if we die. lol
The game, King's Quest, is like that. When you die, the king automatically gives you enough money to buy new army.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
How easy or hard it would be to implement entirely depends on what our definition of a 'harsh death penalty' would be.
'Harsh' without player loot but with a steep durability hit and expensive repair bill on your gear and lengthy corpse runs / long timers isn't something which is so very hard to adjust most games to in my opinion.
Actually losing stuff when dying is a different matter though and you would be right by saying that a game needs to be designed around a gear sink like that.
Question is tho, what's the point of such penalties? I mean, they are nothing but small time and money sinks without actual impact on the gameplay and meta-game. IT doesn't really punish you, it just forces you to do pointless stuff.
Im generally against the idea of durability of items in any form in MMOs. That's outdated idea that really serves no purpose. Back in vanilla WoW times, before they added repair bots it was just PITA to have to do raid run-outs for repairs in middle of raid instance. It doesn't add to the fun factor, it only adds to annoyance factor.
Most devs seemed to realize that are are lowering that artificial issue. Similary with corpse-runs. WoW added grave yard on every corner, Rift had 2 hour couldoown self rez. Keep in mind that sites like this are rather filled with people that are "enthusiasts" of the genre, but majority of AAA game players is much more "casual". They may only play for few hours a week, not log for days, why would they have to have even more of their time taken away by rather dull mechanics?
It's something that niche MMOs can expand on for those more "engaged" gamers, but sadly majority of indie devs that dabble in the genre seem to bite more than they can chew thus not relaly delievering on the quality front.
For now, i'd much rather have devs focus on making the gameplay itself meaningfull, like maybe some more focus on objective based, non instanced, pvp that can affect the world. Maybe more meta-game added to guild system, making thems omething more than just convinient friend lists and easy grouping for end game. More engaging questing that isin't limited to killing 10 boars and brining 8 apples. This would help MMOs a lot more than playing with values of item durability loss or length of corpse runs.
Amazing how all the insta-rez proponents fail to recognize how the top writer for the game is talking on the film about using 2 people to take on a 4 person instance. Running around dieing (over and over) and kiting MOB's to basically cheat his way through it.
.
Hehe, Daniel will be disappointed when those holes he's exploiting are gradually shut down. As mentioned, we just added this system in testing, so there some rough edges.
That said, we're also not terribly concerned with people being creative about some of the heroic content. We're pretty pragmatic about it - if people have fun doing a one off heroic quest in a very creative way (like, let's say luring a bunch of enemies to a cliff and then pushing them over with a force push) and they're having fun, that's something we're potentially fine with. In fact, we find that a lot of the 'creative' ways people find around more challenging content seems to take more time than doing it the planned way anyway.
As long as there's a reasonable effort vs. reward ratio here, who am I to say that you and your friend can't have fun figuring out a way to get past that 4 man heroic?
This obviously doesn't apply to Operations or Flashpoints (Did I mention that you can't order a probe in instanced content like a Flashpoint or Warzone?), but for world heroics, we're definitely taking a relaxed view on these things.
And the response from Georg is ridiculous as well. You took away corpse runs because beat testers didn't like it? Of course the beta testers didn't like corpse running... nobody does. That's why it's called a PENALTY for death.
Honestly, they may as well rename this game Carebears in Space if they plan on caving to every players request.
No. I'm a bit amazed (just kidding, this is the internet) that you think we would operate like that. But yes - if 95% of testers tell you that you have a problem, you listen. You don't shut your ears and sing to yourself 'they're carebears, they hate any penalty'.
We added this option because the impact of the 'walk back from medcenter' penalty, in our game, is huge - worse than in comparable MMOs. Here's why:
The distances in a world that is built to scale, on planets like Tatooine, are vast.
A lot of the content is not instanced and is open world and you don't enjoy fighting your way back deep into the objective areas when you die. We're not talking about 1-3 minutes of walking. In some cases, we're talking about 10-15 minutes of repeating content. That's not fun.
As Daniel explained, we're not shy of making challenging content that is interesting to overcome.
But content does not get more challenging by giving it a harsh, repetitive death penalty - penalties just happen after the fact and do not, in any way or form, make the content more challenging, fun or even difficult.
The only challenge a really harsh death penalty adds is to player's patience or tolerance to repeating the same content over and over. Most people don't find that fun, and we don't either.
By adding this system, we are able to create content that kills the player once or twice until they figure out how to overcome it. We can create challenges and players are given a chance to overcome them. They can afford to fail, regroup and try again instead of spending 15 minutes sitting around while some player tries to make his way back to the group.
If you are looking for hardcore and punishing death penalties that weed out the weak players (e.g. the ones that don't have infinite patience and time), The Old Republic will not be your game. That does not mean we're attempting to make an extremely easy game with no challenge.
Amazing how all the insta-rez proponents fail to recognize how the top writer for the game is talking on the film about using 2 people to take on a 4 person instance. Running around dieing (over and over) and kiting MOB's to basically cheat his way through it.
.
Hehe, Daniel will be disappointed when those holes he's exploiting are gradually shut down. As mentioned, we just added this system in testing, so there some rough edges.
That said, we're also not terribly concerned with people being creative about some of the heroic content. We're pretty pragmatic about it - if people have fun doing a one off heroic quest in a very creative way (like, let's say luring a bunch of enemies to a cliff and then pushing them over with a force push) and they're having fun, that's something we're potentially fine with. In fact, we find that a lot of the 'creative' ways people find around more challenging content seems to take more time than doing it the planned way anyway.
As long as there's a reasonable effort vs. reward ratio here, who am I to say that you and your friend can't have fun figuring out a way to get past that 4 man heroic?
This obviously doesn't apply to Operations or Flashpoints (Did I mention that you can't order a probe in instanced content like a Flashpoint or Warzone?), but for world heroics, we're definitely taking a relaxed view on these things.
And the response from Georg is ridiculous as well. You took away corpse runs because beat testers didn't like it? Of course the beta testers didn't like corpse running... nobody does. That's why it's called a PENALTY for death.
Honestly, they may as well rename this game Carebears in Space if they plan on caving to every players request.
No. I'm a bit amazed (just kidding, this is the internet) that you think we would operate like that. But yes - if 95% of testers tell you that you have a problem, you listen. You don't shut your ears and sing to yourself 'they're carebears, they hate any penalty'.
We added this option because the impact of the 'walk back from medcenter' penalty, in our game, is huge - worse than in comparable MMOs. Here's why:
The distances in a world that is built to scale, on planets like Tatooine, are vast.
A lot of the content is not instanced and is open world and you don't enjoy fighting your way back deep into the objective areas when you die. We're not talking about 1-3 minutes of walking. In some cases, we're talking about 10-15 minutes of repeating content. That's not fun.
As Daniel explained, we're not shy of making challenging content that is interesting to overcome.
But content does not get more challenging by giving it a harsh, repetitive death penalty - penalties just happen after the fact and do not, in any way or form, make the content more challenging, fun or even difficult.
The only challenge a really harsh death penalty adds is to player's patience or tolerance to repeating the same content over and over. Most people don't find that fun, and we don't either.
By adding this system, we are able to create content that kills the player once or twice until they figure out how to overcome it. We can create challenges and players are given a chance to overcome them. They can afford to fail, regroup and try again instead of spending 15 minutes sitting around while some player tries to make his way back to the group.
If you are looking for hardcore and punishing death penalties that weed out the weak players (e.g. the ones that don't have infinite patience and time), The Old Republic will not be your game. That does not mean we're attempting to make an extremely easy game with no challenge.
Yeah death should never be an advantage. Its good that they are addressing it and understandable since it was just released in that beta wave.
So, we got to see the Death Penalty with the the Live Demo game play with Daniel.
Me personally, I think its too light. As you hear from Daniel takling about it how they use it to their advantage in some of their own Flash Points and other harder fights where they are kitting a MoB around to where they can get self ressed right at the spot.
For those of you that don't know the current death system,
Right now it appears that when you do die. You have 2 choices you can either be ported back or self res on the spot thru a probe droid. It doesn't appear to be any draw backs if you take the self res on the spot other than you res with low health and you have a 12 sec invis to move away from the area. Then rest up to full health. From what Daniel said the only draw back is that each time you die the timer is just longer. Which that to me is hardly any draw back at all.
I guess since I'm one for feeling the death from my past experiences with UO, EQ, and other various games. This current death system seems the weakest of all. Even weaker than STO at their start.
Thoughts on this?
Pretty Useless;
I would like to see;
10% damage to all Gear on Death
Monetary charge for drioid or hospital services(If group players cannot ressurect)
Don't hit people with time , hit them in the pocket
Comments
Oh man that brought back memories, shaky hands while on the hunt in EVE was crazy and exhilarating. I dunno if I could handle that in SW LOL, but it would be a blast!
I hope some of You do realize that death penalty in MMO games needs ot be actually part of mechanics? The more punishing the death is supposed to be, the more gameplay needs to support it.
Look at WoW. You have to raid with 9/19 other people to get a decent piece of gear, or spend hours of playing arena to get the rating for a nice piece of loot. If death meant loss of those toys - it would be just annoyance. Annoyance that would drive players away from the game.
Now look at EVE. You loose a ship in pvp/pve - you buy a new one, because they are accessible, ther eis plenty of them around, they do not take days to get and are not depndant on RNG loot drops. You can easily replace everything you loose in EVE because everything is avalible. Sure the more expensive the toy the more the loss of it will hurt but it's still wihin your reach (of course unless you decide to spend all your money on single, pimped ship and then loose it, but that's just ignorance bordering on studpity). You don't get locked out for weeks possibly just because you lost tech2 fitted ship.
Crafting and general PvE drop systems need to both spport death penalties based on item loss. If majority of worthwhile gear is based around random, group content drops then such penalties make no sense whatsoever, because all it would achieve is wasting players time.
ToR simply is not , by design, built around harsh death penalties. Changing that would require redesigning the whole game concept, from scratch including complete rebalancing of everything from leveling through pvp, group pve all the way to end game.
I would not mind corpse runs like the early days of SWG
How easy or hard it would be to implement entirely depends on what our definition of a 'harsh death penalty' would be.
'Harsh' without player loot but with a steep durability hit and expensive repair bill on your gear and lengthy corpse runs / long timers isn't something which is so very hard to adjust most games to in my opinion.
Actually losing stuff when dying is a different matter though and you would be right by saying that a game needs to be designed around a gear sink like that.
My brand new bloggity blog.
in eve you have to grind to pvp. as a pvp'er, i didnt like this. if youre with a good squad, losing a ship is rare. but over the last year, small gang fights have been phased out by CCP not giving a damn about ship balancing and blobs, so that feature is definitely out.
games like TOR and WoW are essentially designed around grinding the best gear possible so death penalty cant be harsh.
There can't be harsh death penalty because people don't have time nowdays. I'm probaply average MMO player nowdays with job and gf having about max 25 hrs to spent playing per week if I'm lucky. Since majority of my age have already kids they have even less time to spent. Now imagine how happy average player would be if spending half of that time to achieve something would lose it in few minutes. I think one way to satisfy PvP would be having poker system where players need to deposit money to take part on PvP event.
It should be even softer, but this'll do. I bet they'll add significan equipment damage if you die and now we don't have soft death penalty but rather very harsh and that'll be against theri offline RPG thingy.
Guild Wars 2's 50 minutes game play video:
http://n4g.com/news/592585/guild-wars-2-50-minutes-of-pure-gameplay
Everything We Know about GW2:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/287180/page/1
I'm going to put in a request on your behalf that we actually gain a new level if we die. lol
There Is Always Hope!
The game, King's Quest, is like that. When you die, the king automatically gives you enough money to buy new army.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Question is tho, what's the point of such penalties? I mean, they are nothing but small time and money sinks without actual impact on the gameplay and meta-game. IT doesn't really punish you, it just forces you to do pointless stuff.
Im generally against the idea of durability of items in any form in MMOs. That's outdated idea that really serves no purpose. Back in vanilla WoW times, before they added repair bots it was just PITA to have to do raid run-outs for repairs in middle of raid instance. It doesn't add to the fun factor, it only adds to annoyance factor.
Most devs seemed to realize that are are lowering that artificial issue. Similary with corpse-runs. WoW added grave yard on every corner, Rift had 2 hour couldoown self rez. Keep in mind that sites like this are rather filled with people that are "enthusiasts" of the genre, but majority of AAA game players is much more "casual". They may only play for few hours a week, not log for days, why would they have to have even more of their time taken away by rather dull mechanics?
It's something that niche MMOs can expand on for those more "engaged" gamers, but sadly majority of indie devs that dabble in the genre seem to bite more than they can chew thus not relaly delievering on the quality front.
For now, i'd much rather have devs focus on making the gameplay itself meaningfull, like maybe some more focus on objective based, non instanced, pvp that can affect the world. Maybe more meta-game added to guild system, making thems omething more than just convinient friend lists and easy grouping for end game. More engaging questing that isin't limited to killing 10 boars and brining 8 apples. This would help MMOs a lot more than playing with values of item durability loss or length of corpse runs.
apparently daniel erickson was exploiting a bug when he was describing how he was using the medical probe to his advantage in a flashpoint.
GeorgZoeller General Discussion -> Thoughts on the Death Probe?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ManuDragonne
Amazing how all the insta-rez proponents fail to recognize how the top writer for the game is talking on the film about using 2 people to take on a 4 person instance. Running around dieing (over and over) and kiting MOB's to basically cheat his way through it.
.
Hehe, Daniel will be disappointed when those holes he's exploiting are gradually shut down. As mentioned, we just added this system in testing, so there some rough edges.
That said, we're also not terribly concerned with people being creative about some of the heroic content. We're pretty pragmatic about it - if people have fun doing a one off heroic quest in a very creative way (like, let's say luring a bunch of enemies to a cliff and then pushing them over with a force push) and they're having fun, that's something we're potentially fine with. In fact, we find that a lot of the 'creative' ways people find around more challenging content seems to take more time than doing it the planned way anyway.
As long as there's a reasonable effort vs. reward ratio here, who am I to say that you and your friend can't have fun figuring out a way to get past that 4 man heroic?
This obviously doesn't apply to Operations or Flashpoints (Did I mention that you can't order a probe in instanced content like a Flashpoint or Warzone?), but for world heroics, we're definitely taking a relaxed view on these things.
GeorgZoeller General Discussion -> Thoughts on the Death Probe?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BDreason
And the response from Georg is ridiculous as well. You took away corpse runs because beat testers didn't like it? Of course the beta testers didn't like corpse running... nobody does. That's why it's called a PENALTY for death.
Honestly, they may as well rename this game Carebears in Space if they plan on caving to every players request.
No. I'm a bit amazed (just kidding, this is the internet) that you think we would operate like that. But yes - if 95% of testers tell you that you have a problem, you listen. You don't shut your ears and sing to yourself 'they're carebears, they hate any penalty'.
We added this option because the impact of the 'walk back from medcenter' penalty, in our game, is huge - worse than in comparable MMOs. Here's why:
The distances in a world that is built to scale, on planets like Tatooine, are vast.
A lot of the content is not instanced and is open world and you don't enjoy fighting your way back deep into the objective areas when you die. We're not talking about 1-3 minutes of walking. In some cases, we're talking about 10-15 minutes of repeating content. That's not fun.
As Daniel explained, we're not shy of making challenging content that is interesting to overcome.
But content does not get more challenging by giving it a harsh, repetitive death penalty - penalties just happen after the fact and do not, in any way or form, make the content more challenging, fun or even difficult.
The only challenge a really harsh death penalty adds is to player's patience or tolerance to repeating the same content over and over. Most people don't find that fun, and we don't either.
By adding this system, we are able to create content that kills the player once or twice until they figure out how to overcome it. We can create challenges and players are given a chance to overcome them. They can afford to fail, regroup and try again instead of spending 15 minutes sitting around while some player tries to make his way back to the group.
If you are looking for hardcore and punishing death penalties that weed out the weak players (e.g. the ones that don't have infinite patience and time), The Old Republic will not be your game. That does not mean we're attempting to make an extremely easy game with no challenge.
Yeah death should never be an advantage. Its good that they are addressing it and understandable since it was just released in that beta wave.
Pretty Useless;
I would like to see;
10% damage to all Gear on Death
Monetary charge for drioid or hospital services(If group players cannot ressurect)
Don't hit people with time , hit them in the pocket