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The carrot or the stick? (poll)
BarakIII
Member Posts: 800
The Old Republic is using something called 'social points' to encourage people to play together. If you gain enough of these points you can barter them for items. This would be the carrot approach, to encourage people to play together. In some games of the past there's been more of a stick approach. For example you may have a zone filled with nothing but group quests, or perhaps if you aren't part of a group the loot isn't as good. These would be a stick approach.
Now here's the question, which of these would you prefer in an MMORPG? If you have alternatives fill free to explain your ideas.
Edit: I probably should have put this in the general pub forum, oh well.
Comments
They have got it right.......
Any form of enforced play in any game , is bad design as long as people have a choice it is all good.
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Have other games done something along these lines and if not why isn't this considered an innovation? It seems to be one to me. I don't know what impact it will have but they're at least trying something new.
I was kind of hoping to start some discusson on the subject. I was especially hoping those who answered with 'both' or 'neither' might explain their answers? What are people looking for in terms of how groups are encouraged? What are some other ideas that may work as well? How can this system be improved? What are it's downsides?
I like to hit people with both.
Seems to me many games have encouraged group play with rewards that are items that can be bartered with ......
Nothing new here at all.. unless you want to consider an additional currency New.... i dont
I put the carrot, but now that I think about it, it doesn't matter. People are going to be anti-social no matter. just because your in a group, thats not going to stop it. I really doubt this games community is going to be better than the rest of the mmo community. You'll get groups, people will be d-bags, some elititst, some just childish,most of the time just silent
So it doesn't really matter, because If i was playing with my friends, you don't need to entice me to group with them, and if not, the people I group with are just going to group with me like I was one of those AI companions, which isn't very social in the first place.
So few times do i run into random people in mmo's nowdays that are actually nice to other random strangers. It's like either your in their little click(guild) or you can gso.
I'm trying to figure out how this currency is any different from the medals/trophies you get when running WoW's instances through the dungeon finder? In fact, it's nearly identical, no? I mean, I'm all for a social meta-game (the Persona games come to mind) but this won't do anything but min-max social interactions, right?
Can't the "incentive" simply be not being an asocial shut-in or is that too much to ask of poeple that can afford to play video games as much as MMORPGers do? It's a weird dilemma that I would have never guessed would plague MMOs when I started playing. Bizzarre
I chose both which I believe is what they offer. Some activities require a group (Operations, Flashpoints, etc), others don't but encourage with the carrot like you suggested. Others just make sense to group (Realm PVP, etc).
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Except that the medals you get when running in WoW's instances are instance only while you can earn these social points in the open world, not just in instances. At least that's the impression I get. Also those medals you get in WoW's instances have absolutely nothing to do with grouping but rather for taking down bosses and completing the instance.
The main difference between "social points" and other games is that they encourage people to play together even for content that would not be group oriented. Most games offer rewards for playing together by providing better rewards from objectives which can only be achieved in a group. In SWTOR, they are not only encouraging people to group for dungeons and group quests, but for the entire game. This is something that has been missing from MMORPGs for a long time. The average players usually don't even talk to players they don't know while leveling, let alone group with them.
You remember when you played MMOS like 5-10 years ago and people would be more then happy to group with you if you ask them to? They are trying to bring that back in a sense. In a game like WoW, Rift, LOTRO,ect you come across someone doing the same quest as you and often times, just continue soloing because there is no point to group with them. This is an especially common playstyle when dealing with quests which would technically take longer with more people.
What this system does is encourage the type of behavior that is the complete opposite of that. Someone who might normally ignore everyone and just quest solo, would reconsider grouping with the guy who asks to join them with the "social points" currency incentive. This will strongly encourage grouping from the start of the game as well as in the end game.
I see why someone would just see this as another currency for grouping, but in reality, it's functionality provides more then that.
That's a good point - I hadn't thought about grouping for normally non-group oriented content. Well, I hope it works, I do miss actually playing with people.
Could you give some examples? I know of no such games. The only incentive I've ever seen is just simply a slightly better loot drop for quests that are meant to be group content in the first place, while this is meant to get people to group in general, not just in group content.
This is by far the best answer. While the stick might hurt more, you'll leave a lasting impression with the carrot.
In Daoc you got more XP when grouped.
Most other games for some weird reason had your xp effectively lowered in groups, never understood this intention...
Groupsize should not matter, if 3 people be that good they can win an encounter planned for a group of 6 or 8 its ok they do it, maybe at the disadvantage of needing more time to win that fight so bigger groups would still have a reason to form up while not having to LFG until doomsday if they get not all player slots filled.
Offer carrot oportunitys and let the player decide, only show the stick but never really use it^^
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Personally I don't think the analogy really fits. Stick means you force players to do something they aren't inclinded to do by enforcing penalties on them. Carrot means you dangle a promise of something good before them, yet they never really get that reward, it just remains an endless temptation.
What Bioware is doing with social points is paying you to be someone's friend. The more people you befriend and the longer you hang out with them, the more you get paid. Its nothing more than the next logical step in the current mercenary climate of modern MMOs. The "I don't team up with you because I like you, but because of what I can get out of working with you." "And what's your gearscore by the way? What!? That low!? Take a hike chump."mindset that is all to prevalent in games these days.
A large percentage of gamers mysteriously want to play a game simultaneously with thousands of other people but don't actually want anything to do with them. So game makers are at their wits' end as to how to make features that require or just encourage these antisocial soloists to actually interact with another human being. Bioware decided "bleep" it. Just pay the litlle buggers. While I'm sure it will work, it seems to be a sad comentary on the pathetic state of Massively Multiplayer Gaming.
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While this is true, there is also the other group to think about. That is the BW SPG group that they would like to get into TOR. These players are used to playing SPGs, so grouping may not be for them. But these points just might intice them to group. It may not work at all, but it is a possiblity.
The other thing I like is that there will be a lot of group content once you get past the starter world and the faction home planets. The higher you get, the more group quests such as the world group quests. Like the last in the chain we saw at E3 on Alderan. So getting used to grouping earlier as well as just grouping up for solo quests can lead to more players wanting to run the world group quests. Hopefully less waiting and spaming LFG.
But I agree with you in the way MMOs are going, it may just be the same ol same ol.
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I am in great favor of any gameplay aspect including carrots. No sticks please.
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Many facebook games do this
I don't play facebook games and don't really think of them as MMORPGs. But it does seem that if a facebook game can do this it would be more prevalent in real MMORPGs. That said MMORPGs have long development cycles and even if facebook games have been doing it it's still a relatively new thing and is certainly new to the real thing. Still it sounds like the system in TOR is something that will have greater depth to it. Without more information it's really hard to say for sure.
A .ot of people like to play in a certain manner and as long as these rewards are not game breaking many will just not bother with social points.
The assumption that they're making a cgi due to your belief that the actual graphics are poor, is by its very meaning to hide them. They're at E3, for better or worse, they are expected to release 'stuff', in addition there have also been gameplay vids. But gameplay is subjective as we have seen from the leaks, a majority of what people take away is a result of the playstyle of the leaker more than anything else.
Back on topic however, I'm not sure if either are really relevant. Looking at your product in hind sight you could probably see the results and observe the 'carrot' and 'stick' analogy, but during the design stages these should be made on the individual mechanics being implemented. I don't agree with limiting people's options to play style but sometimes I do feel the overall results can be worth sacrificing some freedom.
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The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
Encourage people to work together = good.
Force people to work together (except in certain situations where teamwork is expected, of course) = bad.
I have successfully used either one as a nose on my snowmen, and also coal. Its all a matter of personal taste.
Options with positive support for either decision is always a good thing. I hate being forced.
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The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S
Let's stay on topic.