I understand how healing works in the game but what would be the advantage to rolling a Warrior/Guardian sword and boarding it let's say compared to a Mage besides the obvious Higher Armor? What would be the perks I guess to trying to roll a Sword and Board Plate class to focus on tanking compared to a Mage or any other class in that matter it just makes sense that your Plate classes with a shield will be your "Tank Class" absorbing most the damage and taking a beating correct?
The perqs are that you can play a sword and board character, always in the thick of battle, looking heroic and badass -- and NOT be relegated to a tanking role. You fight like everyone else and you're just as effective, but your style is as a frontline melee slash'n' basher, as opposed to casters or rangers, who prefer to keep the enemy at a distance. You damage output isn't gimped just because you want to be knee deep in gore, as it would be if your defined role was a taunt monkey.
You aren't being forced to assume a role just because you like a certain aesthetic or playstyle. You choose a profession because you like the way it looks and the way it handles, that's it.
Hmmm... great defense and no reduction in damage potential. That sounds like a recipe for PvP disaster. Why play anything that doesn't have fantastic mitigation?
I'm thinking that Warriors have a pretty good chance to be kited, we'll have to see.
Well, warriors have a good amount of stuns and cripples, so that should help.
EDIT: and using a shield doesn't gimp yourself. You gan shield bash, a very good skill, a blocking ability, and additional armor (which is always good to have.)
I understand they say no "Tank" class which would lead to think using a Shield would be gimping you overall in honesty if you think about it and casues balance issues.
Great thing shields have more uses in GW2, so that the lack of a "tank" doesn't imply gimping yourself by taking a shield.
I don't think using a shield is gimping yourself. As someone else pointed out, there's no autoattack in the game. But you should always have some low cost spammable attack on your bar. We can probably expect a 2H greatsword to do more damage than a 1H MH weapon when spamming this attack, but that would mean there would be no difference between dual wielding or 1H+Shield when doing so.
What is comes down to though is the offhand tradeoffs. Look at http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_warrior_skills With an OH axe, you've got extra damage and an aoe attack. With OH sword, a cripple and a riposte. With a warhorn, movement and defensive party buffs. With a shield, you've got a daze (or stun, different pages have it different) and a toggled block that protects you and people behind you. To me, none of them are gimping yourself, it's all about what you think you're going to need for that particular combat.
As far as warriors being kited, I'm not too worried. Look at the skill videos on the warrior page. http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/warrior/ Look at the range on Arcing Shot. One of the ideas in GW2 is to have warriors be viable at damage at range and not just use bows/guns for pulling. In the Stomp video we see what appears to be Savage Leap used to close the gap (disappointingly not an actual leap). Eviscerate is also used to close the gap and we see Throw Axe here as well. The wiki page says Throw Axe can be traited to cause cripple on fleeing foes.
Shield Stance appears like it will have real value in PVP. A warrior could support a caster behind them. This would force your enemy to be the one to close the gap if they want to do damage, trying to get around you and leaving themselves open to your melee control effects.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
I'm pretty sure you'll be able to go 1h + shield and go for DPS set of skills essentially making your character DPS shield warrior. Pretty much the same you can make 2h warrior act like control/tanker with hamstrings or other effects that let you influence the enemies and battlefield around you.
it kinda removes a completely unrealistic (if that can be said about a fantasy game lol) and illogical mechanic of taunt.
you aggro by actually being agressive which is rather easy since everyone can cause great threat.
exactly like it should be.
Well the premise behind a "taunt" or "provoke" mechanic isn't completely illogical. It's the same concept you see in movies or read in stories where a menacing predator has all of its attention focused on a damsel in distress. But just before it takes a lethal bite out of the helpless girl's jugular, someone else shouts, "Over here you big dumby! That's right, you, you slobbering buffoon! Bet ya can't kill ME!" The predator promptly leaves his guaranteed meal to chase the others who are taunting him.
Admittedly, I agree that these scenes always have an unrealisticly childish, fairytale feel to them. But that was the "logical" origin of the MMO taunt mechanic. What's illogical is that every single MMO creature invariably feels so utterly insulted, and is consequently consumed by such rage, that it simply cannot refrain from attacking the "taunter."
Control and mitigation > dps and healing, its waay better to stop damage then to take it and be healed. One way you CAN'T DIE the other YOU CAN DIE. It's a total change in philosophy than you are used to. Proactive>Reactive, GW2 will force this on you.
Control and mitigation > dps and healing, its waay better to stop damage then to take it and be healed. One way you CAN'T DIE the other YOU CAN DIE. It's a total change in philosophy than you are used to. Proactive>Reactive, GW2 will force this on you.
This is so amusingly true.
A good Engineer (or class like it) is going to shut you down before you can even get to them if you think that DPS, tanking, and healing are the only methods of playing a game. One of the things I always loved about City of Heroes, and later, Champions Online was how well crowd control worked, even in PvP, and there were some people who were incredible at it, and some people who absolutely stank at it because they expected the PvP to be like Counterstrike or WoW.
It isn't simply about stuns a la WoW, it's about controlling what your opponent can do on the field. The approach to a 'new trinity' in Guild Wars 2 is very, very, similar to the approach of Champions Online. Control; Interruption; Defence; Damage, these are the impotant elements of a system like Guild Wars 2. It's all about, as you said, not taking damage in the first place. If you do, then you do have a healing spell to back yourself up, but that's going to be costly, and the wrose you play the more you're going to be spending on potions to have enough mana to waste on personal healing.
DPS, tanking, and healing is the most boring system imaginable by comparison, it doesn't force you to actually keep on your toes and/or think, it just forces you to stand still. Because if you're standing still then your tank can tank, your DPS can DPS, and your healer can heal, only ever moving when oh my gosh, the boss is doing a special attack. Whereas in Guild Wars 2, you need to momve. If you're hurt then you could use your personal healing spell, or you could use your lockdown abilities to stop the people attacking you in their tracks and head over to a warrior's healing banner.
That's another thing in Guild Wars 2, the only other form of healing aside from your personal spell is something that creates 'healing hotspots' on the ground. And due to cross-profession combos, you'll also have 'damage hotspots' too. So occasionally you'll need to pull back to a healing hotspot, or push forward to damage one, all the while you're watching the field and trying to control what your opponents can do, to ensure that you can do what you need to do. If you're not controlling what your foes can do, then you've already lost. That's the approach of Guild Wars 2.
Well, mages seem about aoe but also about ranged combat and casting spells, Mages are the class that has the most skills causing burning
warriors are perfectly viable in melee as in range, they can affect enemies with weakness and other stuff, versatile, strong in melee AND range if made so
Thiefs seem a class with most ability to apply conditions like poison, bleed, cripple, weakness, vulnerability and daze so i guess theyll be great for taking out single high value targets
and so on
Classes are different but all have something to them. Personally i can;t wait to play thief and bombard people with conditions.
And shadow trap sounds totally awesome: places a trap that when triggered [even if ur far away] puts you into stealth mode and teleports to trap. Great when you have to defend some objective but dont want to camp one spot. Put it near flag for example and when enemy triggers it ur right on them and stealthed:>
There is trinity, just not holy trinity
tank/dps/heal got changed with control/support/damage
From the video's i've watched it looks like ad-hoc grouping, and not avoiding other players cause they are kill-stealers like in your typical wow-clone, is automatic and actually wanted by the player. So was it the holy-trinity that was hated, or was it another game mechanic? Personally I slightly dis-liked the holy-trinity for the holy-trinity, but I mostly hated the holy-trinity because of another game mechanic which I stated in my opening remarks, the grouping mechanic or grinding mechanic.
From the video's i've watched it looks like ad-hoc grouping, and not avoiding other players cause they are kill-stealers like in your typical wow-clone, is automatic and actually wanted by the player. So was it the holy-trinity that was hated, or was it another game mechanic? Personally I slightly dis-liked the holy-trinity for the holy-trinity, but I mostly hated the holy-trinity because of another game mechanic which I stated in my opening remarks, the grouping mechanic or grinding mechanic.
The trinity doesn't really lend itself to ad hoc switching between group and solo play, so there is more than just a dislike for trinity or a killstealing problem that is inspiring a change in the mechanic. I agree that the automatic grouping is probably because the classes aren't split up into holy trinity roles, and I also like that the classes aren't ever completely relying on others to survive against other.
I wonder if the holy trinity will be abandoned by other games if GW2 does well enough.
I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.
From the video's i've watched it looks like ad-hoc grouping, and not avoiding other players cause they are kill-stealers like in your typical wow-clone, is automatic and actually wanted by the player. So was it the holy-trinity that was hated, or was it another game mechanic? Personally I slightly dis-liked the holy-trinity for the holy-trinity, but I mostly hated the holy-trinity because of another game mechanic which I stated in my opening remarks, the grouping mechanic or grinding mechanic.
The trinity doesn't really lend itself to ad hoc switching between group and solo play, so there is more than just a dislike for trinity or a killstealing problem that is inspiring a change in the mechanic. I agree that the automatic grouping is probably because the classes aren't split up into holy trinity roles, and I also like that the classes aren't ever completely relying on others to survive against other.
I wonder if the holy trinity will be abandoned by other games if GW2 does well enough.
If GW2 works as advertised then it will be a WOW-killer, and other games will follow suit. I've been waiting for a game to play for 5 years.
From the video's i've watched it looks like ad-hoc grouping, and not avoiding other players cause they are kill-stealers like in your typical wow-clone, is automatic and actually wanted by the player. So was it the holy-trinity that was hated, or was it another game mechanic? Personally I slightly dis-liked the holy-trinity for the holy-trinity, but I mostly hated the holy-trinity because of another game mechanic which I stated in my opening remarks, the grouping mechanic or grinding mechanic.
The trinity doesn't really lend itself to ad hoc switching between group and solo play, so there is more than just a dislike for trinity or a killstealing problem that is inspiring a change in the mechanic. I agree that the automatic grouping is probably because the classes aren't split up into holy trinity roles, and I also like that the classes aren't ever completely relying on others to survive against other.
I wonder if the holy trinity will be abandoned by other games if GW2 does well enough.
If GW2 works as advertised then it will be a WOW-killer, and other games will follow suit. I've been waiting for a game to play for 5 years.
assuming people who play WoW actually want interesting combat. I have come across a few people who don't seem to WANT this kind of combat.
and anyone who has played the demo can tell you that it delivers as advertised on combat
I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.
Please dont say WoW killer it encourage's the trolls to come out from under the bridge
wow killer is a logical theoretical scenario. WWIIONLINE (MMOFPS) came out in 2001, Planetside (the only other MMOFPS) came out in 2003; many players left WWIIONLINE to Planetside. Certain people are attached to their genres, either the playerbase is divided among the favored, or one game suffers.
assuming people who play WoW actually want interesting combat. I have come across a few people who don't seem to WANT this kind of combat.
and anyone who has played the demo can tell you that it delivers as advertised on combat
Maybe it just sounds too different for them but I can't figure out why it would be. All that anet did was add strafing while using minor attacks, and dodge rolling by double tapping the directional buttons. Its traditional gameplay with more active controls. I guess people just have to play it to believe it.
Comments
Why would using a shield gimp yourself?
Well, warriors have a good amount of stuns and cripples, so that should help.
EDIT: and using a shield doesn't gimp yourself. You gan shield bash, a very good skill, a blocking ability, and additional armor (which is always good to have.)
Great thing shields have more uses in GW2, so that the lack of a "tank" doesn't imply gimping yourself by taking a shield.
- Shield of Absorption ... skill in action.
I don't think using a shield is gimping yourself. As someone else pointed out, there's no autoattack in the game. But you should always have some low cost spammable attack on your bar. We can probably expect a 2H greatsword to do more damage than a 1H MH weapon when spamming this attack, but that would mean there would be no difference between dual wielding or 1H+Shield when doing so.
What is comes down to though is the offhand tradeoffs. Look at http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_warrior_skills With an OH axe, you've got extra damage and an aoe attack. With OH sword, a cripple and a riposte. With a warhorn, movement and defensive party buffs. With a shield, you've got a daze (or stun, different pages have it different) and a toggled block that protects you and people behind you. To me, none of them are gimping yourself, it's all about what you think you're going to need for that particular combat.
As far as warriors being kited, I'm not too worried. Look at the skill videos on the warrior page. http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/warrior/ Look at the range on Arcing Shot. One of the ideas in GW2 is to have warriors be viable at damage at range and not just use bows/guns for pulling. In the Stomp video we see what appears to be Savage Leap used to close the gap (disappointingly not an actual leap). Eviscerate is also used to close the gap and we see Throw Axe here as well. The wiki page says Throw Axe can be traited to cause cripple on fleeing foes.
Shield Stance appears like it will have real value in PVP. A warrior could support a caster behind them. This would force your enemy to be the one to close the gap if they want to do damage, trying to get around you and leaving themselves open to your melee control effects.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
I'm pretty sure you'll be able to go 1h + shield and go for DPS set of skills essentially making your character DPS shield warrior. Pretty much the same you can make 2h warrior act like control/tanker with hamstrings or other effects that let you influence the enemies and battlefield around you.
I think this video will illustrate rather well how Shields will not gimp you in GW2:http://www.collegehumor.com/video/6476633/best-of-dorkly-link-didnt-get-the-sword
Well the premise behind a "taunt" or "provoke" mechanic isn't completely illogical. It's the same concept you see in movies or read in stories where a menacing predator has all of its attention focused on a damsel in distress. But just before it takes a lethal bite out of the helpless girl's jugular, someone else shouts, "Over here you big dumby! That's right, you, you slobbering buffoon! Bet ya can't kill ME!" The predator promptly leaves his guaranteed meal to chase the others who are taunting him.
Admittedly, I agree that these scenes always have an unrealisticly childish, fairytale feel to them. But that was the "logical" origin of the MMO taunt mechanic. What's illogical is that every single MMO creature invariably feels so utterly insulted, and is consequently consumed by such rage, that it simply cannot refrain from attacking the "taunter."
there are other things besides dps and healing.
Control and mitigation > dps and healing, its waay better to stop damage then to take it and be healed. One way you CAN'T DIE the other YOU CAN DIE. It's a total change in philosophy than you are used to. Proactive>Reactive, GW2 will force this on you.
This is so amusingly true.
A good Engineer (or class like it) is going to shut you down before you can even get to them if you think that DPS, tanking, and healing are the only methods of playing a game. One of the things I always loved about City of Heroes, and later, Champions Online was how well crowd control worked, even in PvP, and there were some people who were incredible at it, and some people who absolutely stank at it because they expected the PvP to be like Counterstrike or WoW.
It isn't simply about stuns a la WoW, it's about controlling what your opponent can do on the field. The approach to a 'new trinity' in Guild Wars 2 is very, very, similar to the approach of Champions Online. Control; Interruption; Defence; Damage, these are the impotant elements of a system like Guild Wars 2. It's all about, as you said, not taking damage in the first place. If you do, then you do have a healing spell to back yourself up, but that's going to be costly, and the wrose you play the more you're going to be spending on potions to have enough mana to waste on personal healing.
DPS, tanking, and healing is the most boring system imaginable by comparison, it doesn't force you to actually keep on your toes and/or think, it just forces you to stand still. Because if you're standing still then your tank can tank, your DPS can DPS, and your healer can heal, only ever moving when oh my gosh, the boss is doing a special attack. Whereas in Guild Wars 2, you need to momve. If you're hurt then you could use your personal healing spell, or you could use your lockdown abilities to stop the people attacking you in their tracks and head over to a warrior's healing banner.
That's another thing in Guild Wars 2, the only other form of healing aside from your personal spell is something that creates 'healing hotspots' on the ground. And due to cross-profession combos, you'll also have 'damage hotspots' too. So occasionally you'll need to pull back to a healing hotspot, or push forward to damage one, all the while you're watching the field and trying to control what your opponents can do, to ensure that you can do what you need to do. If you're not controlling what your foes can do, then you've already lost. That's the approach of Guild Wars 2.
And in my opinion, it's a better approach.
Well, mages seem about aoe but also about ranged combat and casting spells, Mages are the class that has the most skills causing burning
warriors are perfectly viable in melee as in range, they can affect enemies with weakness and other stuff, versatile, strong in melee AND range if made so
Thiefs seem a class with most ability to apply conditions like poison, bleed, cripple, weakness, vulnerability and daze so i guess theyll be great for taking out single high value targets
and so on
Classes are different but all have something to them. Personally i can;t wait to play thief and bombard people with conditions.
And shadow trap sounds totally awesome: places a trap that when triggered [even if ur far away] puts you into stealth mode and teleports to trap. Great when you have to defend some objective but dont want to camp one spot. Put it near flag for example and when enemy triggers it ur right on them and stealthed:>
There is trinity, just not holy trinity
tank/dps/heal got changed with control/support/damage
man,
I hope you guys are watching this live 5v5 control/support/dps vs dps/control/support. It's so elevated right now, the Support/control aspect.
I like the new trinity system, even though its really always been in place.
TT
From the video's i've watched it looks like ad-hoc grouping, and not avoiding other players cause they are kill-stealers like in your typical wow-clone, is automatic and actually wanted by the player. So was it the holy-trinity that was hated, or was it another game mechanic? Personally I slightly dis-liked the holy-trinity for the holy-trinity, but I mostly hated the holy-trinity because of another game mechanic which I stated in my opening remarks, the grouping mechanic or grinding mechanic.
The trinity doesn't really lend itself to ad hoc switching between group and solo play, so there is more than just a dislike for trinity or a killstealing problem that is inspiring a change in the mechanic. I agree that the automatic grouping is probably because the classes aren't split up into holy trinity roles, and I also like that the classes aren't ever completely relying on others to survive against other.
I wonder if the holy trinity will be abandoned by other games if GW2 does well enough.
I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.
If GW2 works as advertised then it will be a WOW-killer, and other games will follow suit. I've been waiting for a game to play for 5 years.
Please dont say WoW killer it encourage's the trolls to come out from under the bridge
assuming people who play WoW actually want interesting combat. I have come across a few people who don't seem to WANT this kind of combat.
and anyone who has played the demo can tell you that it delivers as advertised on combat
I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.
wow killer is a logical theoretical scenario. WWIIONLINE (MMOFPS) came out in 2001, Planetside (the only other MMOFPS) came out in 2003; many players left WWIIONLINE to Planetside. Certain people are attached to their genres, either the playerbase is divided among the favored, or one game suffers.
Maybe it just sounds too different for them but I can't figure out why it would be. All that anet did was add strafing while using minor attacks, and dodge rolling by double tapping the directional buttons. Its traditional gameplay with more active controls. I guess people just have to play it to believe it.
This is not a game.
the trinity is fail, its missing the 4th class, proper full time CC, see eq1 enchanter or eq2 enchanter
Which is a form of active damage prevention... And a tactiall tool very much missed in current day MMO's
GW2 will have a lot of these tactics brought back...
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)