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"Story" versus "great story"
Kalfer
Member Posts: 779
2003, Knights of the Old Republic, was MY first Bioware experience and what a fantastic game it was. I still stand by the opinion that the game edges out(easily) George Lucas films, The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones in characters, narrative, dialogue and overall "storytelling".
Most memorable parts of KOTOR of me was some of the slow moments. Once the character, after 10-15 hours(depending on the difficulty you would play on) would begin to train as a Jedi on Dantoonie, the game slowly and gradually evolves you and shapes you. The Music is soothing and sad, and ther eis a very calm-ness over the whole odeal.
Many of the "Quests" are about the basic lives of hermits living. Memorable encounters include a widow having loving affections to a droid, who is the only remains of her dead husbands legacy, a murder mystery solved through a maze of tricky dialogue options and the construction of the lightsaber.
In many ways KOTOR was actually a much more slow story(but still with high octane moments) than the movies, which I thinks go to show that Bioware managed to understand that they had to translate the Star Wars feeling to game, which is much longer than a 1,5-2 hour movie.
From the trailers we have seen, I am not sure if any voice acting, cut scene or dialogue cinematics have impressed me in the same way it did in KOTOR. Will there be characters like Jolee Bindo, who litteraly had hours of interesting optional dialogue to say, depending on where you were in the story and which planet you were on?
These trailers that we have seen are jam packed with combat, classic star wars tunes, and I am afraid that they might be dumping down the story to serve those with little attention span. Is there a point to a story if it's not engaging, emotional and pulls you in?
I think the scene from the films that most closely resembles the spirit of KOTOR, is the scene of Luke looking over the Duel sunsets on Tattooine after having an argument with his uncle.
Some people say that Bioware fell of their rocks with storytelling in recent years. Jade Empire might have been a miss, Mass Effect might have had few interesting characters, and Dragon Age might have been generic beyond repair, but I personally loved the characters of Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age 2.
Both games(from a story perspective) have problems, but characters save it a long way.
I have never seen a movie or a book work where the plot was great but all the characters sucked be satisfying. I have however seen movies and read books with generic plots, predictable stories and just forgetful narrative, though which had entertaining or fascinating characters, which ultimately made it a good experience.
I am not arguing that characters win over story, but I think even in the case of Star Wars it is the colorful cast that brings it home. Star Wars is full of great characters that say great things.
I really wonder if these companion characters will be worthy of a full party memeber in single player RPGs. Not just in customization, but also in what they have to say. And if I have a Sith Maruder with the same companion as my friend who also is a Sith Maruder with the same companion, how different are our companions really going to be when we meet in the field and share a multi dialouge cut scene? Even if the companions won't say much, just seeing two clones in the story might be disheartening.
Comments
its all down to personal preferences, Kotor did pretty well imo.. but.. its not a game i would recommend to anyone.. if only because i didnt like it at all... i still think .. that a lot of Kotor's success, was down to who made it, rather than the game itself... its probably because SW:TOR is modeled to some degree on Kotor, that im not particularly impressed with it.. imo.. how good any storyline is.. is a matter of personal opinion.. too often it seems like their patting themselves on the back for being clever.. personally i'd rather see improvements in gameplay than storyline.. as those are the features that will ultimately decide whether the game is any good or not
I think many developers dont realise there is this large market for games that feel like books. Back in teh 80s and early 90s there was a craze for choose your own adventure books, I think Bioware has taken up the gap that those books used to take up and now involve the player in the story. Sure, this may sound like every game out there, but there is a difference between involved int the story and involved in the game. I can feel immersed int eh game easily, any successful developer has easily proved that, but the question is if I feel invovled in teh story. Do I want to know the backstory for my character or do I want to just get to the next shoot-em-up.
I think with the expansion of computer games further and further, more people want the feeling they would usually get from reading a good book. They want to be involved in the action , but they also want to know and understand the world and the way things work.
Star Wars Franchise is essentially playing on the people who want a book to read, there is a tonne of background information there that can be brought to the surface and the best way to do that is with convincing stories. Having all that background with just action loses a lot of the understanding of the world, and will lose people. People interested in Star Wars are interested in the background, the gameplay they can get somewhere, anywhere else, they want ot be in a world they enjoy and feel a part of the story.
Afterall, if gameplay was all they wanted there is already plenty of MMOs out there.
Cutscene/storywise I haven't really been all that impressed with the game. Saving my judgment for release but so far the initial impression has been subpar at best. I get the feeling that Bioware is going more for quanity at the expense of quality. I think Bioware is going to have to have a very solid MMO while also pulling in some of their fans from other games, as I think they kinda got it wrong in the sense that they think the mass amount of people that play are going to care about story. You and I might, as well as others on these forums, but the majority of people will probably get bored of the dialogue after a few hours and just start zooming through all of it, as the mentality nowadays is to get to endgame and start progression. That seems to be what I have garnered about the the current scene of MMOs: people enjoy the progression aspect, the social aspect, and some enjoy the persistant world aspect.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Metallica8589/videos?view=0
One complaint that could be made toward TOR with little to argue against, would be that it is in some ways a stripped down MMO. Small choice in class types, a slightly more directed path toward end-game (IMO not a bad thing, depending on the quality of the story) etc... It could also be said that the choice in companions is a little forced by making them obtainable only through class choice.
I think it's safe to assume all of these issue may be directely revolved around companions and/or other story induced limitations. In other words they've seemingly sacrificed quite a bit in order to offer up a compelling story with colorful characters, and other odds and ends that take a story from average to good or even great.
I'm only assuming here though, so I can only stand by those words to a limited degree of certainty.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I can't really say much about SW:ToR in regards to characters because we just haven't seen much. Trailer in effect are meant to pull you in by making it look exciting, flashy, and just generally cool to look at. Story tends to get glossed over in trailers. I mean without giving any of the specifics about it away it comes down to this.
In a galaxy far far away, in the era of the old republic the jedi were nearly wiped out by the returning sith empire. Only by a truce was the republic spared from the wraith of the empire, but even now that truce is beginning to wear thin and war is on the horizon.
Anything really beyond that and the blur trailers there isn't much more you can go into the story without accidently spoiling something.
As for the story itself, i agree if character development isn't good then the story will suffer for it.
Most of the movies and games i loved were because of the characters. The story itself was pretty much what i had seen before with a different coat on it. It was the characters i that game or movie that really spiced up the story. Sadly character development takes a while and is not suited to a trailer. How do you tell what takes nearly 2/3 of a movie or game to tell in a 2 min trailer. Thats why trailers give a overall basis on story then fill the rest up with action.
As for companion, right now it seems you get 5 plus a driod...now you can dress then up in different armor and make them look different, even the aliens ones like the jawa could have different looks. However i seem to remember somewhere that you could influence your companions like you could in kotor 2 making them light or dark natured, thus giving a difference in attitude. They do this in jade empire where you can harden dawn star (was that her name?), so if thats possible you could turn your companions (i seem to recall the jawa had an alignment meter as well.
Actually you know what here is a good page for companions:http://www.swtor.com/info/systems/companions
While traveling the galaxy, your Companion Characters will provide commentary, information on plots and directions to points of interest-- all from their own unique perspectives. Companion Characters may act as your conscience, and try to influence your decisions. In turn, you will influence them, and change how they develop as the story progresses. Based on your choices, some Companions will become your closest friends, others may become your lovers, and a few may even become your enemies!
Highlighted in red the part where you can influence them
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
not for Star Wars fans there isnt... SWG doesnt really count (its virtually dead.. and its rubbish anyway) ... and there is the kiddy 'clone wars' game that SOE has.. as for the books thing.. i just don't see it.. when i want to read a book (and im a heavy reader.. have nearly 200 books on my kindle already.. and yes.. some of them are starwars novels) i read a book.. when i want to play an MMO.. i don't want to read a book.. but.. Gameplay and Social gaming + Starwars.. ... well the audience is imo.. definitely there waiting.. but is SW:TOR able to deliver.. we want to play the game.. not read the book... storylines really arent that new anymore, player interraction and challenging gameplay.. that.. imo.. is what most will be looking for.
Kalfer would probably like the Counselor class and diplomacy missions.
Lets hope for some interesting companions, any possible acting of those companions throughout the story I expect to be like in every other BW game (romance, "hatred", friendship, influence etc - BW is surely sticking to the formula they used in last X games)
Now if they'll be interesting thats a grey area right now, again Im taking into consideration experience with all previous BW games: Some characters were awesome and fun (Garrus, Bastila, HK-47 or what was that killer droid name - I tend to forget names,Varric, Morgana,Wrex...) but some were (at least for me) very bland so I had no interest in their stories at all (like almost everyone from DA2, Kaidan, Samara..) so who knows, the odds are better for interesting ones but I fear the quantity of them (since its "kotor 3,4,5...X")might hurt the quality:(
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
Friends... okay, cool. Enemies... hey, that's neat.
Lovers?
...
...
... I find that mildly creepy. Oh well.
I've found that weird in ALL the Bioware games that have it. It reminds me a little too much of Japanese dating games.
It's not a dealbreaker, and I've still played Dragon Age and Mass Effect, but I try to NOT get into any love situation with these people. Just a matter of personal taste!
Luckily they don't FORCE you to pursue a relationship with an NPC! I'm just worried some day somebody will marry a Bioware character, just like that one Japanese guy married a girl in his dating game with a ceremony and everything.
Yeah that would be weird, but then again the interwebs is full of weird things. As for lovers. They said you wouldn't be seeing things like you would be in say ME. Close you would get would be a quick kiss or something.
You can also apparently make your companions cry for the duration of the game if you so please.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
I am soooooooooooooooooooooooo gonna make my companions cry!!!
Just to note: SW:TOR is shooting for a Teen rating.
TEEN
Titles rated T (Teen) have content that may be suitable for ages 13 and older. Titles in this category may contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling, and/or infrequent use of strong language.
http://www.esrb.org/ratings/ratings_guide.jsp
(gawd i'm likning esrb :P)
While ME was a Mature rating
MATURE
Titles rated M (Mature) have content that may be suitable for persons ages 17 and older. Titles in this category may contain intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content and/or strong language.
Note: it's not until you get to M does that sexual content hit. So i think we are safe with that part. Won't stop someone from trying to marry their companions but then again as certain sites starting with a number have proven even something like elmo could be taken wrong.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Anyone remember "the adoring fan" in Daggerfall?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1KAtuiKfL8
Yeah He kinda sucked.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
This, I'm cool with.
I'm just glad there won't be some little part of my brain going 'OMG, somebody, RIGHT NOW, THIS VERY INSTANT is having sex with this particular companion of mine. They might be doing it WITHOUT PANTS.'
Yay for lack of Bioware sex. Knowing some kissing might be going on is tolerable.
Knowing somebody is making them cry is just awesome.
Not to mention you can kill some of the companions if you'd like
Note: you'll be well aware before hand your doing this, so you have plenty of time to back off
You can also have them (if they hate you enough) betray you and try and kill you later on to.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Now I'm picturing somebody standing in front of some police, a dead companion behind him 'I... I was just force choking him a little. Sometimes he gets out of line, and I have to hurt him a little, you know? ... but... it's because I love him so much! I didn't MEAN to force choke him that much'
I have always liked biowares games but after the original swotor things seem to have become more and more formulaic. Still they are usually fun games. I just finished witcher 2 and I have to say it felt pretty 'fresh' after half a dozen biowares. Whilst the story might not have been 'great' I certainly enjoyed the different approach to story tellng. I also rather enjoyed the grittiness and adult language and themes. I can't help thinking bioware have become complacent even though they put out pretty good quality stuff. I hope the 'multi' takes them out of their comfort zone.
for anyone interested there was a Q&A with the writers at the fansite summit. its not going to give alot of insight into the stories because they don't want to spoil it, but you can get a feel for what the writers are like.
Video of the Q&A but is missing the last 10mins: http://vimeo.com/23011694
the full Q&A but audio isn't great: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM9qXxwhmr8
Not sure you can tag Bioware with the word complacent; They are currently developing and delivering beyond their wildest dreams somethin never seen before of this scale with repect to MMO; THis will be a far far more content heavy game than any other MMO that has come before it.
You don't have to introduce 18+ content to not be complacent. Witcher is a good game but not great very tramline and not offering much more than the Witcher. I agree the storylines are enjoyable but I expect SWTOR will easily reach the same storyline with respect to quality and go far beyond what the witcher has delivered. Nice solo game.
A great concern of me is the visual appereance of the companions. It's really not good that you will see them copy pasted all over. If they could be covered(from anyone but the player character owning them) from top to toe with gear, so at least their physical facial appereance would be unknown to any other player, it perhaps would remidy it a bit. Particularly if armors on the companions could be dyed.
Dyes would help customize the companions. I would like the ability to select face / body type for the companions as well.
Mildly? Guess jacob never sneaked into your captain quarters for the prize :O
+anyone who knows what Im talkin about, I have to share this vid:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZzvvf1Sp7g
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
New dev post from DE about companions:
Hey folks,
There will be, at launch, five unique companion characters per class. Plus your resident butler/crafting/welcome home droid on the ship which is different per faction.
That means over forty CCs in the game with more than a dozen romances, intricate plotlines and hundreds of hours of development. Plus some surprises including a character with 100% different story content and skills depending on how you brought them into your party, one with drastically different forms, etc.
That’s as specific as I can be without spoilers but they’re deep, fun, and you can do a great deal with them. There is no limit to how many CCs you can possibly have in the long run and there is a reason you have far more slots than there are revealed CCs.
Hope that helps!
Daniel
There appears to be some difference on how you bring that CC into your group even mixes up the skills they have..go figure. Guess i'll have to be even more careful when talking to them. Even when getting them at first.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.