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Do Bad Developers know why we distrust/hate them? Do they care?
caremuchless
Member Posts: 603
I recently read that Funcom is partnering up with EA. Many of the replies showed a fair amount of hate or distrust for EA
That got me to thinking, do these Companies know why we hate/distrust them?
Do they care? Or do they just take that info and decide to run PR campaigns, essentially just smoke and mirrors with no real change.
Do they know why their games flopped?
Do you think behind closed doors, they honestly admit to themselves or one another that they pushed a game out to fast?
or admit they did any wrong?
My guess is, NO. And I will tell you why. Corporate. I've worked for some incredibly large companies, Painwebber, American Express, Canon etc and some smaller corporate companies. And what I have seen by and large is a motto of 1- cover your ass and 2-Blame someone else.
Thats my opinion at least. I think thats why these companies repeat the same mistakes, because there is no personal responsibility. No one owns up, or owns the mistake.
What do you think?
Comments
As customers, we vote with our wallets.
The problem is that we collectively always vote for what we forum dwellers don't want. 90% of the people who call for boycotts against EA or any other company will still go buy their product at release day.
These big corporations just want our money, and they know we'll give it to them. They don't care if a few online forums are buzzing with hate towards them because there are several million other people who aren't on those forums at all, and most of those forumers will still buy their crap.
The things that we regard as mistakes in development are really just plain old decision on their part most of the time. In the MMO market, it's rare that anybody has a real hope of unseating WoW from it's #1 spot, and they know that. So why bother making a flawless product? Push it out, collect box sales, collect some subs for as long as possible. Will it be an epic achievement? No, but it sure will be profitable. And in other game markets, longevity doesn't really matter; they can sell us anything, and we'll buy it. Just look at Black Ops. Most agree that it's not as good as MW2 and MW1, but it's still wildly popular and they're still selling DLC for it wildly.
If the entire gaming community really did work cohesively to demand quality for our money, we would get it. Because that would force those companies to be accountable for their products and be accountable to their customers. But as long as people keep buying games that were kept in development just long enough to work right, they will keep making them.
It is just a distribution deal, the same kind of deal that Valve has with EA, make the boxes and put them on the shelves.
Companies know why the vocal minority hate them, of course, but they don't care because the majority keep buying their products.
Its a common belief amongst core gamers that Activision are evil and by far the worst gaming corporation out there, yet they still manage to have the biggest selling game every year.
This. If they earn money, why would they care?
Surprised that more don't care from a business perspective.
Blizzard (Activision) made "most" of their profits off of subs, not off of box sales.
They were in a unique position to conquer the market, though. They did so by relying on their own popular Warcraft intellectual property (from the RTS games) and some ideas from previous games to carry the title, and by perfecting a "formula" of sorts for keeping players in their subs for years at a time both by giving them the features they wanted in a game and by using operant conditioning.
At the time, WoW's popularity was deserved. They figured out the secret, so they're the ones that ran with it. Players don't part with their subscriptions easily, so it's incredibly hard to steal players away from a game like that. Thus, no other game has had much of a hope of finding that same success in the subscription MMO market. They just use the same strategies of design to make something that people will buy and play for a while ("WoW-clones"). Rift, for example, certainly was not built to be a "WoW-killer". Just a WoW-cohabitant during the lull leading up to TOR, GW2, and whatever other legitimate threats to Azeroth are on the horizon. Although to get technical about it, GW2 isn't in direct competition with the other two since it's not part of the subscription market. And F2P games may use similar gameplay techniques, but have lower production costs and rely on a cash shop instead of subs which lets then persist for longer.
That's pretty much it. If a person pitches a fit on a fourm but still buys the products, then the issue isn't The Man or EvilCorpCo but the person that barks at the moon while clicking Submit on their next pre-order.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I dont get why people get so into the we hate X publisher or Y developer. If a game looks really good, and is something you would like buy it. If it looks like you might like it, wait for some reviews, rent it, or wait for the price to drop or a sale. If it looks like something you wouldnt like dont buy it.
Ill buy from EA, Activision, whoever, as long as im enjoying my game, what do i care, I loved Dead Space 1 & 2, loved WoW loved MW1 so what? If there is a publisher that has put out some games that I dont like, and I know they will be putting out more like it, i dont buy em (kinda like Square with the recent FF games, wont be buying the next one) I dont hate them, they just arent for me. I think some people have gotten to wrapped up in their moral self rightousness against perceived injustices by these businesses.
To go along with that, at the same time they generally don't support smaller, less visible developers/products/services that may offer a better experience without all the accompanying bells and whistles.
I can understand the sentiment that many games should be judged on their own merits but what about, for example, Customer Service?
A bad CS experience can and should sour you on that company.
This interaction with CS is a large part of the MMO experience for many and it directly translates into how they likely perceive player issues.
It's not that simple. It's not just pack the game in the boxes and sell them.
They will run tests to see if they think the product is good and/or polished. And they will have a major saying about when the game is being released.
You can say "hey, i need 2 more months to finish the product". And they can say "Nope, game is fine and its going to be released because we need the money to go in in our reports for this quarter.
And bang, gamers hate your unfinished game and your company is doomed. So yeah, a publishing deal with EA is not that simple. On the bright side, their marketing machine is one of the best in the industry.
Back on topic.
They know why you hate them, but as long they get the big bucks they won't mind or care. The problem is people say "I hate EA" or activision, but keep buying their games. Hence... what's the point? It's all down to the $$ and the rest? It's history my friends.
Cheers and happy gaming.
Honestly OP the theme of your post should be why I hate EA and don't trust them. I saw the thread and though hum. You know there are many other bad dev's and companies than just EA.
I am worried about SWTOR myself now that EA is involved, I just don't like them the killer of so many games.
Yes. And I think this is the part that is lost on a lot of companies. People complain and complain, they stop playing, but most of them continue to pay. It's only when people follow through on their threats to cancel and stop paying that they pay attention. They talk about how much they heard the will of their customers and blah blah blah. After it's all settled down and over, they go back to doing just enough to keep that profit % where they want it. Companies think their actions will all be forgotten or forgiven in whatever their new game is. Sadly, regardless of the posts about how bad it is or how they did *blank* again in their new game, people continue to pay. So, they keep doing it.
I haven't purchased or even considered a FUncom product since all the crap they pulled in AO. Know what? I haven't regretted it at all. AoC showed they didn't learn from more than half of the crap they pulled in AO. I said I won't ever buy another FUncom product. I haven't. And, I won't. Ever. EA is approaching that level to me.(I don't purchase many EA games). Blizzard is now on that list of "will not support anything from this company" as well. The list keeps growing from poor customer service, poor product quality, lack of explanation on changes, zero communication of value, and doing the opposite of what they say they plan at every turn. But, you can't just expect everyone to do that. You have to make that choice for yourself. Only you know how those things impact you.
That's pretty much it. If a person pitches a fit on a fourm but still buys the products, then the issue isn't The Man or EvilCorpCo but the person that barks at the moon while clicking Submit on their next pre-order.
To go along with that, at the same time they generally don't support smaller, less visible developers/products/services that may offer a better experience without all the accompanying bells and whistles.
There haven't been any I'm aware of. Small developers don't produce better games. Mostly they're just charging the same high price for less product. Or worse outright bugware.
I'm not sure that is entirely true (especially in the general gaming world) but my response was more in generality for any 'product'. People b!itch about WalMart and don't support their local shops, etc.
The usual reply about any company here at mmorpg.com is that "they are only concerned about the $" but for many smaller companies that isn't the case. Many are actually devoted to their craft and earnings are a secondary concern. This is hard to justify in the MMO genre considering the vast array of technological hurdles and the large cost just to bring it to market understandably. Who knows...maybe a labor of love can bring about some real change.
On that note wasn't "Love", the procedurally-generated MMO, created by one man?
I would say it's little misleading to put the fault on developers, as they are often who understand good game design, but need to do their job to get paid. They may not be making the dream game they always wanted. It's the big bosses, the people funding the projects, that do the decisions, and they don't necessarily know much about good game design, or even care about games in some cases, they generally have only one value and it's profit.
I don't think anyone expects the gaming companies to do it for free. I think the complaint has more to do with when every move they make is based on $ and not it's impact on the game or customers. MMORPG companies think customers will never leave. You also have to consider the amount of big companies that have made games that are very technically and graphically advanced but are not even remotely fun to play to the majority of people who try it. It ties in with a lot of other current threads. Do they really know what we want or are they just looking at the numbers that show what we paid for?
I think the problem with some indie games is money. They don't have it. So, they get investors to buy their idea. Before you know it, the investors are running the show and running their dream into the ground.
To me, gameplay and balance are #1. How does it play? It can look very mediocre at best, but be very fun and balanced and I'll love it. It can employ 100000 new technical innovations and look like a movie when played, but have the depth of Paris Hilton's character and I'll pass every time.
I guess I cant relate, over the years and in the many MMOs ive played ive used CS maybe once or twice. It just isnt a big deal for me.
It's true, I'm guilty of buying Rift recently, knowing I don't care for that sort of game design anymore. (heck I bought a 6 month sub and quit after 2). Doing the same thing and expecting different results, guess I'm just crazy.
Decided going forward to not buy into the hype, will try to make sure a game is what I'm really looking for before handing over my cash.
While not every MMO makes WOW style cash, I'll bet games like AOC, LoTRO, and some others are profitable enough, and therefore earned back what it took to make them and then some.
So as others said, what do they care about people who hate them?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The problem is not the companies, its those in the forums, here mainly, that believe their view of how a game should be developed is what the majority of people want. You are the minority, you just happen to be the loudest on the forums because those happy with the game they are playing..well aren't screaming about it on the forums. I'm willing to bet of all those MMO gamers out there willing to spend cash on a game, those that complain every game is a rip off, themepark, POS only make up about 10% of the market. Given that % as a business man or even a developer the #1 goal is the success of the game they are creating, so they are not going to try and make a game to please 10% of the MMO community they are going to create a game that appeals to the vast majority not the loud, screaming, jaded minority.
So they poster that says we show our displeasure with our wallet is exactly right, thats why companies generally follow the same formula for MMO development.
I doubt many companies truly understand why consumers dislike their products and then make things up to explain it to their publisher or corporate division, Bioware was a very good recent example of this. After the release of Dragon Age II the game received the usual sycophantic reviews by the usual sites that proclaimed it to be the best RPG ever even though a large proportion of the fans had huge amounts of criticism, some even down right hated it. Many of the fans complained on the Bioware website and lots posted independent reviews on Meta Critic and the game was scoring around 4.5/10.
How did Bioware and EA respond?
Well you would have thought that the amount of angry fans posting on their website coupled with the independent review score might have been a clue that the game wasn't as well received as they hoped it would be but they didn't seem to get it, instead they proclaimed it to be a deliberate sabotaging of the scores by a minority group of disgruntled players who where going out of their way to trash the reviews.
In this case the developer was completely delusional and I think its really common, sometimes these companies really believe the game they shoveled out of the door is a great game and seem genuinely hurt when people respond with criticism.
I think the OP also has a point about arse covering, when games go tits up it can be a very costly disaster and can ruin companies or cause cutbacks and job losses so its understandable that staff would try to protect themselves an make excuses to the accountants.
The ironic thing is that they don't need to make excuses all devs and publishers need to do is put a little bit more effort and funding into new projects, sure many of us are unaware of the challenges that go into making a game but sometimes the mistakes made are so obvious the players cannot help but to see the flaws.
For example many games get ruined for want of a weeks more QA and are released with masses of bugs that sometimes even the players fix them or come up with workarounds before the devs even acknowledge the issue.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.
Pretty much this. People already express their displeasure by not playing games they don't like. WoW isn't populated with 11 Million people who are all unhappy with the game and wish they could play something else.
As far as bad developers go, I'd think part of being a bad developer is not understanding your audience or not caring about your audience. The other part would be an inability to execute your plans for a particular game.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Not arguing with that, especially if we talk about strictly MMORPG's, money and management skills are needed more than anything. Though it's also reason why some of aren't that content with most of the recent releases. We are minority indeed and nobody cares, it's okay, I don't care that much either. There loads of good games to play, more that I have time for.
We consumers are good at knowing what we don't want, but not necessarily good and knowing what the general we want.
A lot of the complaints about MMO X, Y, or Z being too much like WoW for example, are legitimate complaints. A lot of people simply don't want another WoW reskin. But what should replace it? That's an entirely different question, but at the same time, Developers have continued to pump out rahashes of the same old shallow core game mechanics.
What a lot of the business men don't get, is that the people who want to play a game like WoW, are already playing WoW. If they truly want to get a decent share of the market, they need to come up with an MMO that suppliments an unrepresented sector within the MMO market, because creating yet aother substitute for WoW doesn't cut it.
You have to consider what they did to make someone hate them. It could be trivial. It could be pretty make or break.
Consider how people start into new games:
People follow others from previous guilds. They will probably leave with that guild too.
People follow friends to new games. They will follow them again if the friend moves on.
People try it on the word of others/friends.
People write reviews on it. People try it based on those reviews.
People post on forums like this about it. People try it because of what is said in those posts.
People see an ad on a website or TV about it.
What happens when the majority of those reasons are swept away by those people pointing out issues with the game and their reasons for not trying it based on previous experiences with a company. This is the internet. Word travels.
Now consider companies and their reputation. Consider products you've had from companies not in gaming. You probably have a stance on all of those companies based on personal experience or the opinion of others on that company. I think that the longer the MMORPG genre lasts, the more those reputations will start to stick with companies. Those reputations will sometimes be the make or break on whether you will bother at all with a game unless something stronger draws you to that game. Look at all the discussion about EA and Activision in other genres. People are forming opinions about MMORPG makers as we speak. The more they continue to blow off customer service, talk down to customers, and leave games in buggy/unbalanced states, the more it will impact their bottom line eventually. It's just a matter of time and level of tolerance.
Ah, the "vocal minority". Always loved this one. No numbers or comparison of numbers of posters to subscribers is ever given. The forums are never advertised in game. People are rarely told to ever visit those forums or directed to them for feedback minus the rare GM response. It's easy to call it the minority when you don't promote or encourage people to use it. It's just another way to discredit your opinion/position compared to the official answer given by employees.
Game makers are aiming for the widest and largest of numbers for their player base. They want to offer everything to please everyone without ever actually giving those people the entire experience or quality in the area they are playing for. Shotgun approach. What do we get? Ever heard the saying "jack of all trades, master of none"? Why include something you can't fully support and maintain?
Ever think that having people just up and quit without explanation is not good for the company? Nothing is gained when someone leaves and you don't know why. All those people that "QQ" do so because they want to keep playing, but there is something bugging them that needs fixed or changed in their eyes. This gives the company direction or points out issues. If no one ever said why they quit or said anything on the forums or in email about the game, what would get changed?
If MMORPG makers would just start disciplining people that just post "QQ", "L2P", and "UMADBRO" type memes as trolling, the forums would be a more civil place with more actual discussion. Not saying the gaming companies would do more, but they could see things easier.
But I dont hate EA, it was just that last thread about EA and FUNCOM that made me think of the topic.
I have less hate for these companies than many of you do. So far I have yet to play a game thats been ruined or shutdown completely.
I have not played Ultima.
Earth Above and Beyond
or Star Wars Galaxies (only played for a short period).
For those that dont understand the hate, like someone mentioned earlier, either they have no empathy or they haven't been in that situation.
I am more nervous about the impact a company could have on the game than actual all out hate.