I have a question to the people that seem to have a problem with the end-game - What do you suggest? People love to state what sucks and needs innovation, but very few are prepared to provide said initiative.
I myself have grown tired of the raid/dungeon grind. I recognize that **I** have grown bored of it. It doesn't mean that the model blows, will ultimately fail, and that anyone that likes the model is a douche bag.
Unfortunately the vast majority of companys are willing to copy WoW to the exact style instead of adding to the genre, its the main reason why games like WAR, Rift, Aion and all the rest of the post WoW clones have come up short. I myself have grown bored of the same old tired 'raid or die' or 'instance grind' for gear to do higher tiered content but like you I recognize the model doesnt blow but it is stale and I feel developers could go a long way in adding additional end game elements on top of the WoW style. Such as:
1. DAoC Darkness Falls Open dungeons.
2. Resource control for high tiered crafters.
3. World PvP not based on Objectives but on elements that resemble DAoC's Frontier system. Or better yet a hybrid of Wintergrasp in WoW and Emain Macha in DAoC.
4. Alternate advancement whereby addtional Experince earned after the level cap is used to increase skills and stats, ala a hybrid of Asherons Call skill system, EQ2's AA system and DAoC's RR system.
5. Crafting quests that are epic and takes hours upon hours of discovery, trial and error, and exploring.
6. A mix of instanced based content designed for pre made groups like WoW and open dungeons with traps, puzzles, tough mobs you must use all your available resources to either sneak by in random ways or kill to get to treasure chests at the end on a relatively short timers (under 6 hours) with lesser then normal chance of aquiring loot on par with the current raid model.
7. an Open ended loot system similar to Diablo and Asherons Call. In my system the loot would be as good as raid gear, be easier to aquire for the solo minded casual player but the chances of finding loot that is 'as good as raid loot' would be rare and often times contain undesirable stats (such as a bonus to Caster stats on a 2h sword) but then that player could undertake an heroic journey of exploration and questing to find a rare NPC crafter who would chance the stats to a more desireable one for a huge fee. Or you could also implement a crafting skill that changes stats on gear but the componets to do so are rare and would take lots of farming and grinding giving more incentive for hunting in areas or zones elimanating the traditional stand around in cities waiting on your next dungeon or PvP queue.
8. LOTS World mini bosses on sporadic timers that drop higher then normal quality loot, or guard treasure. A system like this would encourage exploration.
9. Rare random spawning dungeons like in Asherons Call, and once you die your locked out.
These are jsut a small amount of content that could be created foir the players who arent interested in raiding or instance grinding, in other words the vast majority of MMO players. Contrary to any persons belief the overwhelming number of players who spend time in MMO's never see the new raids or could care less about PvP'ing in battlegrounds, this is a fact.
Originally posted by vesavius
Originally posted by MMO.Maverick
Originally posted by vesavius
Exactly how I feel about the game I have seen.
Nonethekess, it will be massive, and once again will the market have given the very clear signal that it wants quest grind driven themepark games that lack ambition or imagination.
We really only have ourselves to blame for the state of this genre. If wedidnt show them this what sells they would make something else.
Ahh well.
Oh come on, don't be so negative. There's also GW2, TSW, TERA, ArcheAge and other MMO's upcoming, so it's far too early to claim doom and gloom. In fact, I think that we'll see several different MMO designs be successful and exist happily next to eachother. No need for a 'there can be only one!' exclamations when it comes to successful and popular MMO gameplay type.
The problem is most of those are either small developers or Asian styled games who to date have not found a way to draw the Western market. GW2 is the only 1 on the list that remotely intrests me. The Secret World looks good too but I have my doubts in Failcom's track record.
Darkfall had almost all of those points listed, yet by god people tear it apart on these forums. For sure, the devs royally effed up their launch and hacking was a big issue (at least when I was playing), but the game had lots 'to do' and was fun. People complained it was a 'grind-fest' funny how that works isn't it... you know, having to spend time to improve your character. *rolls-eyes*
It's alway so inspiring how many people are fond of one-liner replies. I'd suggest if that's all you guys have to say you try a cereer as comedian and stop bothering forum debates.
I suggest if your gonna talk abvout how mediocre a game is, you play it first.
common sense for the win.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling" Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
errrr...... have you even played the game yet? if u have then fair enough but if not thats an awfully lot of very strong opinions for a game you havent even played
Agreed. This coming from someone claiming to not be a hater of the game AND accusing anyone who disagrees with him of being a fanboy.
That's our Elikal, agonizing himself in knots over what "might be" and what "should be".
"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering."
Thank you for quoting one of the most retarded lines from the idiotic dialogue of the Prequels, because that is really helpfull to show the line of reasoning that both fans and haters like to use. Since all those terms are interchangeable, lets do the same with the argument used here to deny any form of criticism: 'You havnt played it so you dont know'. Good, so then stop being positive right now, delete all the banners, because you can not possibly be excited since you havnt played it yet. Clearly, someone can anticipate in a positive way, but not a in a negative way. But why? Please point this out to me. Elikal just pointed out the things that bother him, which are fully based on anticipation. If any discussion can only follow from handson experience, then we could close these forums right now.
Stop turning every discussion into some kind of battle. Stop acting as if any form of criticism is a direct attack.
Your argument actually has some merit I will agree. What totally kills it for me is the OVERWHELMINGLY good reaction by the vast majority that have played the game (Elikal has not btw, at least that is what he said a while back). What I find truly amazing is a couple of the reviews coming from self confessed MMO haters that loved the gameplay, story and such. Then there is the people who said they would never buy a game based on Star Wars . . . but changed their minds after playing this game.
There have been a couple of negative reviews that I have seen and I do take them into account, but when the few things they complain about is praised by almost everyone else, I can't help but wonder if some sort of ulterior motive (Sandbox vs themepark, fps vs mathematics, spg vs MMO, console vs computer) exists. A couple of those negative reviews also came from people who admitted to a bias, so those I throw out all together.
I am excited for this game, I admit it. I am also WAITING until I play it though to make MY decision.
It will be a good MMO.
Still sad of some too obvious bad design choices, in my opinion, and it feels like a bit too much on rails, though I have not played the game yet to be honest.
There Deewe, I fixed your post for you. It's in RED btw.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
It's alway so inspiring how many people are fond of one-liner replies. I'd suggest if that's all you guys have to say you try a cereer as comedian and stop bothering forum debates.
I suggest if your gonna talk abvout how mediocre a game is, you play it first.
common sense for the win.
+1 to warmaster670 for the common sence.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
It's alway so inspiring how many people are fond of one-liner replies. I'd suggest if that's all you guys have to say you try a cereer as comedian and stop bothering forum debates.
I suggest if your gonna talk abvout how mediocre a game is, you play it first.
common sense for the win.
+1 to warmaster670 for the common sence.
There are more ways than one to tell if a game is mediocre besides playing it, to which we cannot do unless we buy the game for the first month of play time. Some of us are sick of being ripped off time and time again, being forced to gamble and buy games before we even play them. With the decrease of trials and free demos, we like to make damn sure the game is worth our time and money before we invest either to prevent supporting the company who made the horrible game that ripped us off in the first place.
To give some examples of mediocrity that don't require you actually playing the game:
Content. How deep does this game go? How much time have the developers REALLY spent on this?
Animations. As of currently, TOR's animations are very stale and bland when their budget suggests they're capable of something far more. For one: the running animation. Their legs move, but the top half of their body is almost completely frozen; it looks unnatural. Another example being the combat. After a swing of your lightsaber, your character is almost completely frozen afterwards until it's time to swing again.
It's alway so inspiring how many people are fond of one-liner replies. I'd suggest if that's all you guys have to say you try a cereer as comedian and stop bothering forum debates.
how about this play the game and then tell us what you think hands on...... its nice to hear someone rant about something its like a baby complaining about why he got no candy. if you think tor going to fail dont buy the game your wasting time.
There are more ways than one to tell if a game is mediocre besides playing it, to which we cannot do unless we buy the game for the first month of play time. Some of us are sick of being ripped off time and time again, being forced to gamble and buy games before we even play them. With the decrease of trials and free demos, we like to make damn sure the game is worth our time and money before we invest either to prevent supporting the company who made the horrible game that ripped us off in the first place.
To give some examples of mediocrity that don't require you actually playing the game:
Content. How deep does this game go? How much time have the developers REALLY spent on this?
Animations. As of currently, TOR's animations are very stale and bland when their budget suggests they're capable of something far more. For one: the running animation. Their legs move, but the top half of their body is almost completely frozen; it looks unnatural. Another example being the combat. After a swing of your lightsaber, your character is almost completely frozen afterwards until it's time to swing again.
How can I know how deep a game is without actually playing it?
As for animations I don't think they look so bad, they could improve them, but I would be content with what I've seen.
Animation comes down to personal taste more or less.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
errrr...... have you even played the game yet? if u have then fair enough but if not thats an awfully lot of very strong opinions for a game you havent even played
Agreed. This coming from someone claiming to not be a hater of the game AND accusing anyone who disagrees with him of being a fanboy.
That's our Elikal, agonizing himself in knots over what "might be" and what "should be".
"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering."
Thank you for quoting one of the most retarded lines from the idiotic dialogue of the Prequels, because that is really helpfull to show the line of reasoning that both fans and haters like to use. Since all those terms are interchangeable, lets do the same with the argument used here to deny any form of criticism: 'You havnt played it so you dont know'. Good, so then stop being positive right now, delete all the banners, because you can not possibly be excited since you havnt played it yet. Clearly, someone can anticipate in a positive way, but not a in a negative way. But why? Please point this out to me. Elikal just pointed out the things that bother him, which are fully based on anticipation. If any discussion can only follow from handson experience, then we could close these forums right now.
Stop turning every discussion into some kind of battle. Stop acting as if any form of criticism is a direct attack.
Your argument actually has some merit I will agree. What totally kills it for me is the OVERWHELMINGLY good reaction by the vast majority that have played the game (Elikal has not btw, at least that is what he said a while back). What I find truly amazing is a couple of the reviews coming from self confessed MMO haters that loved the gameplay, story and such. Then there is the people who said they would never buy a game based on Star Wars . . . but changed their minds after playing this game.
There have been a couple of negative reviews that I have seen and I do take them into account, but when the few things they complain about is praised by almost everyone else, I can't help but wonder if some sort of ulterior motive (Sandbox vs themepark, fps vs mathematics, spg vs MMO, console vs computer) exists. A couple of those negative reviews also came from people who admitted to a bias, so those I throw out all together.
I am excited for this game, I admit it. I am also WAITING until I play it though to make MY decision.
It will be a good MMO.
Still sad of some too obvious bad design choices, in my opinion, and it feels like a bit too much on rails, though I have not played the game yet to be honest.
There Deewe, I fixed your post for you. It's in RED btw.
I don't need to play the game to know I don't like the tube shooter, nor I dislike the art direction, nor the lack of non humanoid species, nor spliting force users in 8 classes, nor preventing players to respec in the second AC, nor forcing players to use a specific type of saber hilt, nor the lack of minigames like Pazaak and pod racing, nor not having non combat oriented classes, nor having PvP gear, nor forcing players to choose between look and stats, nor not having the choice of our space ship chassis, nor not having player bounties, nor not having day/night cycles, nor not being different than Wow: many players kiting a boss, nor having to repair our gear, nor seeing speeder that move as fast as turtles, nor not being able to swim, not not having display pets... enough?
I repeat the game will be good but I insist they made some really obvious design choices.
I have to completely agree with you... When I first heard about a real star wars MMO, I almost wet myself.... After finding out that bioware and lucas arts were in charge I couldnt be more excited...
Then.... I started reading, started listening to the developer commentaries, and yes watch the footage of the game, including leaked gameplay footage...
After hearing that they are using the Trinity System "IE" Tank>Healer>Dps I almost cried.... People defend it saying its needed, yet Guild Wars2 is making an MMO without healers, so it can be done... Why on earth would anyone ever want to be a Jedi or Sith Healer sitting in the back waving his hand around to regenerate someones wounds?! This is obsurd.
This whole game has become nothing but a cinematic version of every other mmo that has come out and failed... It's nothing more than your kill 10 rats, grind 300 hours, replace your gear with each patch and so forth...
Sure the quests, story, and cinematics might be neat the first time, but how about the 20th time you run the same raid trying to collect that tier 3 epic gear?!
This game is a total fail, and it's my bet that bioware or lucas arts will be firing a crap load of people when this title flops. I encourage all of you to wait a month or two before buying, its my guess it will go "Free to Play" with microtransactions within 2 months...
Don't waste the $49.99 on this title, wait until they have "Father's Day sales, and list it at $9.99" like one of its competitors just rid... Cough "Rift"
Originally posted by pauloleson I have to completely agree with you... When I first heard about a real star wars MMO, I almost wet myself.... After finding out that bioware and lucas arts were in charge I couldnt be more excited...
Then.... I started reading, started listening to the developer commentaries, and yes watch the footage of the game, including leaked gameplay footage...
After hearing that they are using the Trinity System "IE" Tank>Healer>Dps I almost cried.... People defend it saying its needed, yet Guild Wars2 is making an MMO without healers, so it can be done... Why on earth would anyone ever want to be a Jedi or Sith Healer sitting in the back waving his hand around to regenerate someones wounds?! This is obsurd.
This whole game has become nothing but a cinematic version of every other mmo that has come out and failed... It's nothing more than your kill 10 rats, grind 300 hours, replace your gear with each patch and so forth...
Sure the quests, story, and cinematics might be neat the first time, but how about the 20th time you run the same raid trying to collect that tier 3 epic gear?!
This game is a total fail, and it's my bet that bioware or lucas arts will be firing a crap load of people when this title flops. I encourage all of you to wait a month or two before buying, its my guess it will go "Free to Play" with microtransactions within 2 months...
Don't waste the $49.99 on this title, wait until they have "Father's Day sales, and list it at $9.99" like one of its competitors just rid... Cough "Rift"
Im totally gonna take your advice. Thanks for setting me straight.
errrr...... have you even played the game yet? if u have then fair enough but if not thats an awfully lot of very strong opinions for a game you havent even played
Agreed. This coming from someone claiming to not be a hater of the game AND accusing anyone who disagrees with him of being a fanboy.
That's our Elikal, agonizing himself in knots over what "might be" and what "should be".
"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering."
Thank you for quoting one of the most retarded lines from the idiotic dialogue of the Prequels, because that is really helpfull to show the line of reasoning that both fans and haters like to use. Since all those terms are interchangeable, lets do the same with the argument used here to deny any form of criticism: 'You havnt played it so you dont know'. Good, so then stop being positive right now, delete all the banners, because you can not possibly be excited since you havnt played it yet. Clearly, someone can anticipate in a positive way, but not a in a negative way. But why? Please point this out to me. Elikal just pointed out the things that bother him, which are fully based on anticipation. If any discussion can only follow from handson experience, then we could close these forums right now.
Stop turning every discussion into some kind of battle. Stop acting as if any form of criticism is a direct attack.
Your argument actually has some merit I will agree. What totally kills it for me is the OVERWHELMINGLY good reaction by the vast majority that have played the game (Elikal has not btw, at least that is what he said a while back). What I find truly amazing is a couple of the reviews coming from self confessed MMO haters that loved the gameplay, story and such. Then there is the people who said they would never buy a game based on Star Wars . . . but changed their minds after playing this game.
There have been a couple of negative reviews that I have seen and I do take them into account, but when the few things they complain about is praised by almost everyone else, I can't help but wonder if some sort of ulterior motive (Sandbox vs themepark, fps vs mathematics, spg vs MMO, console vs computer) exists. A couple of those negative reviews also came from people who admitted to a bias, so those I throw out all together.
I am excited for this game, I admit it. I am also WAITING until I play it though to make MY decision.
It will be a good MMO.
Still sad of some too obvious bad design choices, in my opinion, and it feels like a bit too much on rails, though I have not played the game yet to be honest.
There Deewe, I fixed your post for you. It's in RED btw.
I don't need to play the game to know I don't like the tube shooter, nor I dislike the art direction, nor the lack of non humanoid species, nor spliting force users in 8 classes, nor preventing players to respec in the second AC, nor forcing players to use a specific type of saber hilt, nor the lack of minigames like Pazaak and pod racing, nor not having non combat oriented classes, nor having PvP gear, nor forcing players to choose between look and stats, nor not having the choice of our space ship chassis, nor not having player bounties, nor not having day/night cycles, nor not being different than Wow: many players kiting a boss, nor having to repair our gear, nor seeing speeder that move as fast as turtles, nor not being able to swim, not not having display pets... enough?
I repeat the game will be good but I insist they made some really obvious design choices.
Sorry Deewe, but all of that is in your opinion. Your opinion does not make it a bad design choice just as my opinion that most of the such you dislike about the game I think is awesome. Tube Shooter - disappointed when I first heard about it, but love it after seeing it in action. Art - could be better in my opinion, but could be oh so much worse too, so I like what I am getting. 8 force using ADVANCED classes - great ability to really make my own type of force user, the ME of the Jedi or Sith.
Look, you can complain all you want, but just because you don't like something that doesn't make it a bad design choice. That was my only problem with your previous post. Keep in mind, this game is not made for just one person, nor even a segment of people. It is being designed to draw the largest crowd it possibly can. That means that there are a lot of people that will dislike certain features and even then it won't be a bad design choice since it is what the majority like that matters most.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
This game is a total fail, and it's my bet that bioware or lucas arts will be firing a crap load of people when this title flops. I encourage all of you to wait a month or two before buying, its my guess it will go "Free to Play" with microtransactions within 2 months...
Don't waste the $49.99 on this title, wait until they have "Father's Day sales, and list it at $9.99" like one of its competitors just rid... Cough "Rift"
Two months you say? I'll be sure to bookmark this post. To determine whether your prediction was right or wrong.
On a typical basis I wait a few months before buying any MMO, that's because it's fair to assume the only thing worth experiencing is what the community has to offer. That's really not the case with TOR as I can at least play the story missions and level one or two characters through class stories before worrying about the MMO aspects of the game. Most likely a launch week purchase for me.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
This game is a total fail, and it's my bet that bioware or lucas arts will be firing a crap load of people when this title flops. I encourage all of you to wait a month or two before buying, its my guess it will go "Free to Play" with microtransactions within 2 months...
Don't waste the $49.99 on this title, wait until they have "Father's Day sales, and list it at $9.99" like one of its competitors just rid... Cough "Rift"
Two months you say? I'll be sure to bookmark this post. To determine whether your prediction was right or wrong.
On a typical basis I wait a few months before buying any MMO, that's because it's fair to assume the only thing worth experiencing is what the community has to offer. That's really not the case with TOR as I can at least play the story missions and level one or two characters through class stories before worrying about the MMO aspects of the game. Most likely a launch week purchase for me.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Well, I pretty much agree with all of the OP's points. It isn't like there aren't other ways to do questing, combat, end-game, etc. The TOR developers just have very little vision.
Frankly, what disgusts me most is that sub-based MMOs are all about grind. They are little skinner boxes designed to give a little reward every few times you do something to keep you playing. This is all about making you be a good little rat pulling a lever over and over again, rather than about maximizing fun. It's a pretty sad state of affairs when you compare an MMO to any good non-MMO and the former comes up very lacking in gameplay and design. Of course, all of this is to keep getting those sub fees from you, since they are pretty much entirely pure profit.
Granted, psychological manipulation has shown itself to be quite effective when you look at WoW and the like. That said, I think TOR will peak in the number of subs within the first 6 months. 95% or more of the gameplay is going to be exactly like what we've seen before and that's not a big motivation for people to move to another game if Rift is anything to go by.
Personally I think B2P is the future of good MMOs.
Personally I think B2P is the future of good MMOs.
Well, maybe for you, but I haven't found a B2P yet that was worth buying all the garbage you needed to really enjoy the game. I would rather pay a suscription and get everything than buy every little thing. In the end though, it is really all in how people prefer to spend their money and each of us justify things in different ways.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Well, I pretty much agree with all of the OP's points. It isn't like there aren't other ways to do questing, combat, end-game, etc. The TOR developers just have very little vision.
Frankly, what disgusts me most is that sub-based MMOs are all about grind. They are little skinner boxes designed to give a little reward every few times you do something to keep you playing. This is all about making you be a good little rat pulling a lever over and over again, rather than about maximizing fun. It's a pretty sad state of affairs when you compare an MMO to any good non-MMO and the former comes up very lacking in gameplay and design. Of course, all of this is to keep getting those sub fees from you, since they are pretty much entirely pure profit.
Granted, psychological manipulation has shown itself to be quite effective when you look at WoW and the like. That said, I think TOR will peak in the number of subs within the first 6 months. 95% or more of the gameplay is going to be exactly like what we've seen before and that's not a big motivation for people to move to another game if Rift is anything to go by.
Personally I think B2P is the future of good MMOs.
And no f2p game is about grind? wow. That's the very first time I've ever heard that a sub based game has less grind than a f2p.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by GMan3 Originally posted by Drachasor Personally I think B2P is the future of good MMOs.
Well, maybe for you, but I haven't found a B2P yet that was worth buying all the garbage you needed to really enjoy the game. I would rather pay a suscription and get everything than buy every little thing. In the end though, it is really all in how people prefer to spend their money and each of us justify things in different ways. how many b2p mmos are out there? I only know of one and that is guild wars. Otherwise, only single player games have been b2p.
Well, I pretty much agree with all of the OP's points. It isn't like there aren't other ways to do questing, combat, end-game, etc. The TOR developers just have very little vision.
Frankly, what disgusts me most is that sub-based MMOs are all about grind. They are little skinner boxes designed to give a little reward every few times you do something to keep you playing. This is all about making you be a good little rat pulling a lever over and over again, rather than about maximizing fun. It's a pretty sad state of affairs when you compare an MMO to any good non-MMO and the former comes up very lacking in gameplay and design. Of course, all of this is to keep getting those sub fees from you, since they are pretty much entirely pure profit.
Granted, psychological manipulation has shown itself to be quite effective when you look at WoW and the like. That said, I think TOR will peak in the number of subs within the first 6 months. 95% or more of the gameplay is going to be exactly like what we've seen before and that's not a big motivation for people to move to another game if Rift is anything to go by.
Personally I think B2P is the future of good MMOs.
And no f2p game is about grind? wow. That's the very first time I've ever heard that a sub based game has less grind than a f2p.
F2P have mechanics that are a bit different in this regard, in the time I've played them. They are more focused on getting you to buy that next thing, which is a bit different than a P2P game -- although the net effect is pretty similar.
Anyhow, it isn't like I was advocating F2P. I was adocating B2P.
Personally I think B2P is the future of good MMOs.
Well, maybe for you, but I haven't found a B2P yet that was worth buying all the garbage you needed to really enjoy the game. I would rather pay a suscription and get everything than buy every little thing. In the end though, it is really all in how people prefer to spend their money and each of us justify things in different ways.
how many b2p mmos are out there? I only know of one and that is guild wars. Otherwise, only single player games have been b2p.
Yes, I think some people are confusing B2P and F2P. The former is where, like with any game, you buy the box/client and then have full access to the whole game. The latter is where you get the game for free and the developers getting money is dependent on them getting players to buy stuff in an item shop.
Personally I think B2P is the future of good MMOs.
Well, maybe for you, but I haven't found a B2P yet that was worth buying all the garbage you needed to really enjoy the game. I would rather pay a suscription and get everything than buy every little thing. In the end though, it is really all in how people prefer to spend their money and each of us justify things in different ways.
how many b2p mmos are out there? I only know of one and that is guild wars. Otherwise, only single player games have been b2p.
Yes, I think some people are confusing B2P and F2P. The former is where, like with any game, you buy the box/client and then have full access to the whole game. The latter is where you get the game for free and the developers getting money is dependent on them getting players to buy stuff in an item shop.
Except that servers don't run on ether or come into a companies possesion for free. Also, patches, fixes and extra content eventually costs money to create. Even B2P games have to have some way of making money and basically follow the F2P model. No thanks.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
There are more ways than one to tell if a game is mediocre besides playing it, to which we cannot do unless we buy the game for the first month of play time. Some of us are sick of being ripped off time and time again, being forced to gamble and buy games before we even play them. With the decrease of trials and free demos, we like to make damn sure the game is worth our time and money before we invest either to prevent supporting the company who made the horrible game that ripped us off in the first place.
To give some examples of mediocrity that don't require you actually playing the game:
Content. How deep does this game go? How much time have the developers REALLY spent on this?
Animations. As of currently, TOR's animations are very stale and bland when their budget suggests they're capable of something far more. For one: the running animation. Their legs move, but the top half of their body is almost completely frozen; it looks unnatural. Another example being the combat. After a swing of your lightsaber, your character is almost completely frozen afterwards until it's time to swing again.
How can I know how deep a game is without actually playing it?
As for animations I don't think they look so bad, they could improve them, but I would be content with what I've seen.
Animation comes down to personal taste more or less.
People who are paid to play games and review them can tell us just how deep the game is. I realize that a fresh MMO isn't going to have a lot of this, but I expect the planets and exploration to be rewarding, satisfying and deep in itself. PvP is usually what will keep my interest when there is no more PvE content, presuming that it's skill based and gear has little to no factor in your victories.
The animation isn't a subjective thing. It's either good or bad. The Old Republic as it stands now needs improvement, but I would still play it as it is. It's certainly MILES better than Warhammer Online's choppy mess.
Personally I think B2P is the future of good MMOs.
Well, maybe for you, but I haven't found a B2P yet that was worth buying all the garbage you needed to really enjoy the game. I would rather pay a suscription and get everything than buy every little thing. In the end though, it is really all in how people prefer to spend their money and each of us justify things in different ways.
how many b2p mmos are out there? I only know of one and that is guild wars. Otherwise, only single player games have been b2p.
Yes, I think some people are confusing B2P and F2P. The former is where, like with any game, you buy the box/client and then have full access to the whole game. The latter is where you get the game for free and the developers getting money is dependent on them getting players to buy stuff in an item shop.
Except that servers don't run on ether or come into a companies possesion for free. Also, patches, fixes and extra content eventually costs money to create. Even B2P games have to have some way of making money and basically follow the F2P model. No thanks.
Normal games have patches, servers, fixes, etc, etc, etc all for free. B2P games have you pay for more content, but that payment covers everything else.
As for your reference to DLC, that's just ripping off a very, very small percentage of customers with normal games. I've seen no evidence that it has ever been very popular with the vast majority of gamers. It's just a cheap way to get some more money out of a small percentage of customers. Even the worse DLC (which is never, ever needed for any game) is far, far better than paying for several new games every year and getting hardly any content for it (P2P).
Comments
Darkfall had almost all of those points listed, yet by god people tear it apart on these forums. For sure, the devs royally effed up their launch and hacking was a big issue (at least when I was playing), but the game had lots 'to do' and was fun. People complained it was a 'grind-fest' funny how that works isn't it... you know, having to spend time to improve your character. *rolls-eyes*
I suggest if your gonna talk abvout how mediocre a game is, you play it first.
common sense for the win.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
There Deewe, I fixed your post for you. It's in RED btw.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
+1 to warmaster670 for the common sence.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
There are more ways than one to tell if a game is mediocre besides playing it, to which we cannot do unless we buy the game for the first month of play time. Some of us are sick of being ripped off time and time again, being forced to gamble and buy games before we even play them. With the decrease of trials and free demos, we like to make damn sure the game is worth our time and money before we invest either to prevent supporting the company who made the horrible game that ripped us off in the first place.
To give some examples of mediocrity that don't require you actually playing the game:
Content. How deep does this game go? How much time have the developers REALLY spent on this?
Animations. As of currently, TOR's animations are very stale and bland when their budget suggests they're capable of something far more. For one: the running animation. Their legs move, but the top half of their body is almost completely frozen; it looks unnatural. Another example being the combat. After a swing of your lightsaber, your character is almost completely frozen afterwards until it's time to swing again.
meh you will all still play it, and if you do'nt happy day for rest of us that do
This line has been thrown out there in the lead up to every failed launch of an MMO in the last 7 years, careful what you wish for.
still it holds true, even those that are consider "failed" MMOs someone likes and enjoys the game.
You do make a fair point though.
how about this play the game and then tell us what you think hands on...... its nice to hear someone rant about something its like a baby complaining about why he got no candy. if you think tor going to fail dont buy the game your wasting time.
.....
How can I know how deep a game is without actually playing it?
As for animations I don't think they look so bad, they could improve them, but I would be content with what I've seen.
Animation comes down to personal taste more or less.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I don't need to play the game to know I don't like the tube shooter, nor I dislike the art direction, nor the lack of non humanoid species, nor spliting force users in 8 classes, nor preventing players to respec in the second AC, nor forcing players to use a specific type of saber hilt, nor the lack of minigames like Pazaak and pod racing, nor not having non combat oriented classes, nor having PvP gear, nor forcing players to choose between look and stats, nor not having the choice of our space ship chassis, nor not having player bounties, nor not having day/night cycles, nor not being different than Wow: many players kiting a boss, nor having to repair our gear, nor seeing speeder that move as fast as turtles, nor not being able to swim, not not having display pets... enough?
I repeat the game will be good but I insist they made some really obvious design choices.
I have to completely agree with you... When I first heard about a real star wars MMO, I almost wet myself.... After finding out that bioware and lucas arts were in charge I couldnt be more excited...
Then.... I started reading, started listening to the developer commentaries, and yes watch the footage of the game, including leaked gameplay footage...
After hearing that they are using the Trinity System "IE" Tank>Healer>Dps I almost cried.... People defend it saying its needed, yet Guild Wars2 is making an MMO without healers, so it can be done... Why on earth would anyone ever want to be a Jedi or Sith Healer sitting in the back waving his hand around to regenerate someones wounds?! This is obsurd.
This whole game has become nothing but a cinematic version of every other mmo that has come out and failed... It's nothing more than your kill 10 rats, grind 300 hours, replace your gear with each patch and so forth...
Sure the quests, story, and cinematics might be neat the first time, but how about the 20th time you run the same raid trying to collect that tier 3 epic gear?!
This game is a total fail, and it's my bet that bioware or lucas arts will be firing a crap load of people when this title flops. I encourage all of you to wait a month or two before buying, its my guess it will go "Free to Play" with microtransactions within 2 months...
Don't waste the $49.99 on this title, wait until they have "Father's Day sales, and list it at $9.99" like one of its competitors just rid... Cough "Rift"
http://sciencefiction.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/ThunderCats-Banner.jpg
Sorry Deewe, but all of that is in your opinion. Your opinion does not make it a bad design choice just as my opinion that most of the such you dislike about the game I think is awesome. Tube Shooter - disappointed when I first heard about it, but love it after seeing it in action. Art - could be better in my opinion, but could be oh so much worse too, so I like what I am getting. 8 force using ADVANCED classes - great ability to really make my own type of force user, the ME of the Jedi or Sith.
Look, you can complain all you want, but just because you don't like something that doesn't make it a bad design choice. That was my only problem with your previous post. Keep in mind, this game is not made for just one person, nor even a segment of people. It is being designed to draw the largest crowd it possibly can. That means that there are a lot of people that will dislike certain features and even then it won't be a bad design choice since it is what the majority like that matters most.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Two months you say? I'll be sure to bookmark this post. To determine whether your prediction was right or wrong.
On a typical basis I wait a few months before buying any MMO, that's because it's fair to assume the only thing worth experiencing is what the community has to offer. That's really not the case with TOR as I can at least play the story missions and level one or two characters through class stories before worrying about the MMO aspects of the game. Most likely a launch week purchase for me.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Better take screen shots or it didn't happen!
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Well, I pretty much agree with all of the OP's points. It isn't like there aren't other ways to do questing, combat, end-game, etc. The TOR developers just have very little vision.
Frankly, what disgusts me most is that sub-based MMOs are all about grind. They are little skinner boxes designed to give a little reward every few times you do something to keep you playing. This is all about making you be a good little rat pulling a lever over and over again, rather than about maximizing fun. It's a pretty sad state of affairs when you compare an MMO to any good non-MMO and the former comes up very lacking in gameplay and design. Of course, all of this is to keep getting those sub fees from you, since they are pretty much entirely pure profit.
Granted, psychological manipulation has shown itself to be quite effective when you look at WoW and the like. That said, I think TOR will peak in the number of subs within the first 6 months. 95% or more of the gameplay is going to be exactly like what we've seen before and that's not a big motivation for people to move to another game if Rift is anything to go by.
Personally I think B2P is the future of good MMOs.
Well, maybe for you, but I haven't found a B2P yet that was worth buying all the garbage you needed to really enjoy the game. I would rather pay a suscription and get everything than buy every little thing. In the end though, it is really all in how people prefer to spend their money and each of us justify things in different ways.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
And no f2p game is about grind? wow. That's the very first time I've ever heard that a sub based game has less grind than a f2p.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
how many b2p mmos are out there? I only know of one and that is guild wars. Otherwise, only single player games have been b2p.
BOOYAKA!
F2P have mechanics that are a bit different in this regard, in the time I've played them. They are more focused on getting you to buy that next thing, which is a bit different than a P2P game -- although the net effect is pretty similar.
Anyhow, it isn't like I was advocating F2P. I was adocating B2P.
Yes, I think some people are confusing B2P and F2P. The former is where, like with any game, you buy the box/client and then have full access to the whole game. The latter is where you get the game for free and the developers getting money is dependent on them getting players to buy stuff in an item shop.
Except that servers don't run on ether or come into a companies possesion for free. Also, patches, fixes and extra content eventually costs money to create. Even B2P games have to have some way of making money and basically follow the F2P model. No thanks.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
People who are paid to play games and review them can tell us just how deep the game is. I realize that a fresh MMO isn't going to have a lot of this, but I expect the planets and exploration to be rewarding, satisfying and deep in itself. PvP is usually what will keep my interest when there is no more PvE content, presuming that it's skill based and gear has little to no factor in your victories.
The animation isn't a subjective thing. It's either good or bad. The Old Republic as it stands now needs improvement, but I would still play it as it is. It's certainly MILES better than Warhammer Online's choppy mess.
Normal games have patches, servers, fixes, etc, etc, etc all for free. B2P games have you pay for more content, but that payment covers everything else.
As for your reference to DLC, that's just ripping off a very, very small percentage of customers with normal games. I've seen no evidence that it has ever been very popular with the vast majority of gamers. It's just a cheap way to get some more money out of a small percentage of customers. Even the worse DLC (which is never, ever needed for any game) is far, far better than paying for several new games every year and getting hardly any content for it (P2P).