When will we have an MMO...

peedei · June 2011

When will we have an MMO that:

-has character customization/animation as good as its compelling gameplay

-brings the community together under social incentives

-does not make content irrelevant every expansion/major content patch

-uses old content as progression but not as a detriment to new content

-is new and refreshing without launching too early

-makes every activity available a relevant contribution to your realm and your own progression

-appease the masses with separate difficulty settings when applicable i.e. dungeons: story/normal/heroic = easy/normal/hard

-realizes too much or too little convenience can be bad

-understands we like instancing as well as a seamless world to roam in

-will have crafting/gathering be more than a monotonous waiting game

-does not have a rollercoaster of pvp balance where blatant flaws/overtunings are left untouched

-has pvp and pve both fleshed out fully for end game and leveling without a hitch to one or the other

-has PvE end game that doesn't rely on instancing and is in the open world

-gives you a reason to be out in the open world revisiting old and new places at level cap

-has pvp that isn't short lived, cut throat or too strung out

-empasizes the importance of players building social structures on their server

-does not use bind on pickup

-siege warfare that has more dynamics than simply banging on a door

-makes making large selective groups i.e. pick up group raiding; easy

-gives incentives to explore and immerse yourself in the gaming world

WHEN WILL AN MMO HAVE ALL OF THE ABOVE OR EVEN HALF??

I understand some MMO's have managed to scrape one or two of the above, but it's such a shame they don't take a handful, heck some of the really established ones haven't done the majority of the above. Sad panda.

Edit: Just poke your brain a bit more I'll pose a question:

What would you consider paramount to an MMO for it to simply "work"? I'm talking the bare bones here; no frills or fluff, the few things you need in an MMO to accept its very existence.

Asellia · June 2011

I really like sandbox mmos. No, I don't mean spectacular housing with pretty frills, or a lack of quests. I mean I like being able to explore, with risk, and reward. I don't mean open PVP and full loot either. All I mean is, I shouldn't have to think "Oh, I need to level 20 to adventure there. There can't possibly be ONE MONSTER my level there! All evel 20 mobs!". I like exploring, I like a good storyline.

If I wanted to go more in depth, I do like housing, though it is optional. I also like really in depth magic systems. None of this bullcrap "Talk to a trainer to learn magic spell. Hit hotke3y to use". Reagents, customization, ect.

I guess what I really like is freedom.

faxnadu · June 2011

agree and yes freedom of choise is the key, out of the forcing box.

Bazharkhan · June 2011

When it is more profitable to do so rather than stick with the alternatives...

ckoltai · June 2011

Originally posted by peedei
When will we have an MMO that:

-has character customization/animation as good as its compelling gameplay - Probably a tech issue, I can't imagine it would be possible to code an engine that allows for hundred of characters with complex customization and fluid, visually appealing animations that will actually run decently on the average PC

-brings the community together under social incentives - Not sure I understand what this one means, pretty ambiguous... what exactly are you asking for?

-does not make content irrelevant every expansion/major content patch - The other side of this coin is that the devs can't make old content required. IMO this is not possible without removing the D&Dism of the modern MMO (character sheet with stats that can be increased by either advancement or gear, as well as "kill the dragon to get the sword to kill the dragon to get the sword...) and I'll bet the first studio to do this will have the next WoW-level success on their hands

-uses old content as progression but not as a detriment to new content - Again, can't be done without removing the concept of power creep that is pervasive in the modern MMO. People would actually have to play content because it is fun rather than just to get gear upgrades. Imagine that.

-is new and refreshing without launching too early - Unless you're referring to the recent trend of hyping a game so much that players are burnt out on it before it even releases, these 2 things aren't even remotely related. You can include new and fresh concepts in a game whether the game is delayed by years or released with perfect timing. Care to clarify on what you meant?

-makes every activity available a relevant contribution to your realm and your own progression - I think the biggest issue the genre faces right now is this obsession with progressing constantly... How about doing something because it's fun, or rewarding in its own right? Why do you always have to get a treat for it? If the gameplay is solid, the activities should be the reward in and of themselves, any progression should just be the cherry on top.

-appease the masses with separate difficulty settings when applicable i.e. dungeons: story/normal/heroic = easy/normal/hard - There's absolutely no excuse for games to not do this. It's been done before, we know it's a bit of extra work, but any aspiring MMO devs please note that this feature should be standard in all titles.

-realizes too much or too little convenience can be bad - You very obviously haven't thought this one through. It's all relative, and what is too much or too little to you may be the opposite for others. IMO make everything about your game enjoyable and noone will complain about convenience. Convenience is something you worry about when you're doing something that sucks, like traveling long boring stretches of road between towns or quests. Convenience should never be an issue in a video game.

-understands we like instancing as well as a seamless world to roam in - Again, should be standard, and in most recent titles it IS standard.

-will have crafting/gathering be more than a monotonous waiting game - I know I keep harping on this, but it shouldn't just be MORE, it should be FUN. Why do we play games? It's something fun to do in our down time, right? I'm not really sure how one would go about making these things fun though. If you've ever gone out gathering wood to build a fire or searching for herbs or flowers for a poultice, it mostly sucks. Same with mashing up said herbs and flowers with a mortar and pestle. Suggestions?

-does not have a rollercoaster of pvp balance where blatant flaws/overtunings are left untouched - I stand by my belief that it is impossible to make 2 classes that serve completely different roles and have completely different spells and abilities and have them be balanced for 1v1 PVP, or even have the same value relative to each other in every group PVP scenario. I haven't even experienced balanced PVP outside of the MMO genre since Counterstrike. I think the best thing to aim for here would be something like a rock paper scissors system that still allows for a skilled paper to beat a scissors, etc.

-has pvp and pve both fleshed out fully for end game and leveling without a hitch to one or the other - Again, no excuse for this not being implemented yet. Either path should be viable for leveling, as well as endgame, both should be FUN, and doing one should never give you an advantage in the other

-has PvE end game that doesn't rely on instancing and is in the open world - And to get back to your earlier point, instancing should be a viable choice as well for those who prefer it, and each should have its own reward path, risks, and enjoyment factors.

-gives you a reason to be out in the open world revisiting old and new places at level cap - The only reason this is not in the current crop is due to a failure in design. It doesn't take much thought to see how easy and valuable this would be to implement.

-has pvp that isn't short lived, cut throat or too strung out - All relative. This is purely personal taste. You can't try to make a game that caters to every personality, that's a sure path to failure.

-empasizes the importance of players building social structures on their server - How? Building social structures is supposed to be a reward in itself. You can't really lock a bunch of people in one room and say "Play nice now." and expect it to work.

-does not use bind on pickup - Fully agreed, and I'd take it a step farther and say that all items should be purchasable with in game currency and tradeable, but with some sort of mechanism to prevent RMT. I've got a few half baked ideas for this one, but I'll let them marinate a little more before sharing them (and I'll only share them if I fail at getting funding together for my MMO project :P)

-siege warfare that has more dynamics than simply banging on a door - I think you mean city / castle assault gameplay. Since the key difference between normal pvp and, say, a castle assault, is the castle itself... Care to offer a solution instead of just pointing out the problem?

-makes making large selective groups i.e. pick up group raiding; easy - This would be considered a bad thing to just as many people. Don't believe me? Look at all the haters of the LFD / LFR tool in WoW.

-gives incentives to explore and immerse yourself in the gaming world - Isn't exploring a new world and being immersed in a place where you don't have to work a desk job to make ends meet reward enough? RL is all about having incentives to do stuff that sucks, we do FUN stuff for the purpose of... wait for it.... FUN!!! If you NEED an incentive to do something in a game, it probably sucks, and you should probably play a different game. Incentives being included as a cherry are awesome and make fun things even better, but MMO gamers are way too accepting of crap game mechanics just because they offer an incentive. Ring the bell for the little doggies!

WHEN WILL AN MMO HAVE ALL OF THE ABOVE OR EVEN HALF??

I understand some MMO's have managed to scrape one or two of the above, but it's such a shame they don't take a handful, heck some of the really established ones haven't done the majority of the above. Sad panda.

Edit: Just poke your brain a bit more I'll pose a question:

What would you consider paramount to an MMO for it to simply "work"? I'm talking the bare bones here; no frills or fluff, the few things you need in an MMO to accept its very existence.

The problem is that the current MMO models are all centered around stalling content and progression (and thus sacrificing fun factor and incorporating grindy game mechanics) in order to keep you paying a monthly fee or pumping money into their cash shops.

Someone with a spine needs to fund a studio to develop a AAA title that focuses on fun first with the belief that people will pay for something they legitimately enjoy. I don't see that happening for at least another 5 years, so if we assume a 5 year development cycle, it'll probably be about 10 years before you see anything that remotely thrills you.

In the mean time, save your money and vote with your dollars, don't pay for something just to try it or because it will be fun for a week. Don't reward the investors who demand psychological trickery and forbid any fresh concept because it's not a "proven model". If you want this, stop handing them your money, and thus telling them that they're doing something right. These games only exist because we pay for them, in the end we are playing the MMOs we deserve.

Loktofeit · June 2011

Originally posted by peedei

WHEN WILL AN MMO HAVE ALL OF THE ABOVE OR EVEN HALF??

When there is data showing that there is a profitable enough group of potential players that want [list x}.

For the record, almost everything on your list is vague or subjective. As you define each of those things - what you feel makes the char creator more compelling, how you want seiging to be more dynamic, what incentivizes you to explore, etc - you further narrow the size of the target audience.

dageeza · June 2011

Originally posted by ckoltai

The problem is that the current MMO models are all centered around stalling content and progression (and thus sacrificing fun factor and incorporating grindy game mechanics) in order to keep you paying a monthly fee or pumping money into their cash shops.

Someone with a spine needs to fund a studio to develop a AAA title that focuses on fun first with the belief that people will pay for something they legitimately enjoy. I don't see that happening for at least another 5 years, so if we assume a 5 year development cycle, it'll probably be about 10 years before you see anything that remotely thrills you.

In the mean time, save your money and vote with your dollars, don't pay for something just to try it or because it will be fun for a week. Don't reward the investors who demand psychological trickery and forbid any fresh concept because it's not a "proven model". If you want this, stop handing them your money, and thus telling them that they're doing something right. These games only exist because we pay for them, in the end we are playing the MMOs we deserve.

I agree completely if game junkies would stop throwing money at these copyking devs for the same non creative game you just played only with a different name they would have to try new bold approaches but the way it is they dont have to and so they wont...

New and young gamers are the game companies targets as they are still fresh, new and optimistic, its always new and fun to them for a while and by the time they figure it out and move on a new crop of gamers is born and it refreshes the never ending cycle of these ancient time proven game models..

Drafell · June 2011

I don't think we will ever have an MMO that covers all of these.

Morpgeus · June 2011

Hey folks,

Interesting list; finally someone who cares about more than gear & graphics .

Ok, I think we *have* such a game, and a few that come close. I fear that due to budget necessities, it may be hard to *launch* this type of game. But as a goal...pretty close.

Especially Difficulty Settings is one so glaringly logical, undeniably game-improving, and mostly, absent. Unfathomable and unforgiveable that not all games have this. It's more important than having sound in my view.

Not all of what you list is in the game I have in mind. But I can find only 2-5 exceptions (2 exceptions, 3 things that may or may not be close).

Then again, let me add some of the features you did not yet list (nor will I be able to list all) and see if a) these form adequate compensation and b) you find out which game I mean:

1) Different costumes that do not affect your play. Up to 5. Insane amount of choices for each costume.

2) A way to go back in time and do all the quests you have missed, at the level you were.

3) Base Design and Building.

4) Highly specific information on your character is available to you at all times. *Before* you make the next choice.

5) Limited full Respecs (when vital stats change, you get to re-allocate).

6) PvP stats are different from PvE. This solves *so* many issues...

7) PvP Zones will put you on equal levels (but *not* equal equipment or abilities...or skill 8-) ).

8) Alignments, which play an essential role. You can have 1 of 4, and change between them with quests. With dire consequences for those who do so without thinking.

9) More opponent tactics than you have ever seen in all MMORPG combined probably. An extreme statement, I know. I may be wrong - but not by much!

10) Accolades which will allow you to permanently improve your toon. No need to be hardcore. You need to read the game history. Or the Wiki's .

11) And if you want more: the game has The Mission Architect which allows you to make your own content. There are *many* thousands of missions now. Pretty good rating system.

12) End Content was a late addition but when they finally got there, it just blew most of us away. And they will be adding to it for a long time (it is unfinished, but each free major update *and* smaller updates will add to the whole Incarnate system).

I can find many more.

Would add some images but not sure where to park them. I may do so if someone asks for them. They'll be 2560x1600 I think.

Good luck in...

Lucas aka Eruptic

PS Nope, you have enough (partial) phrases, you can find it . First one gets a chocolate chip cookie.

PPS Edits by me only typos/style - never on content.

Master10K · June 2011

Strange that you bring up these points, because nearly every single thing you listed will be in the upcoming MMORPG Guild Wars 2. This isn't even the fanboy talking but is actual features that are said to be in the game and will be in the game when it releases.

Originally posted by peedei
When will we have an MMO that:

-has character customization/animation as good as its compelling gameplay

Character customization is said to be as robust as Aion's character customization, plus you're able to enhance the RP factor of your character, by answering a couple question in your biography that will alter the story you partake in.

-brings the community together under social incentives

The very nature of its Dynamic Events (what replaces open-world questing) will bring people together, plus there will be dozens of fun activities in various cities (like bar brawls).

-uses old content as progression but not as a detriment to new content

The sidekicking system will allow higher level players to go back to lower level areas, without facerolling everything, by leveling them. Still get rewards though.

-makes every activity available a relevant contribution to your realm and your own progression

Again, dynamic events. Look it up.

-appease the masses with separate difficulty settings when applicable i.e. dungeons: story/normal/heroic = easy/normal/hard

Dugeons will come in easy story-mode and once you complete that, it'll unlock the harder explorable-mode, which is repeatable.

-understands we like instancing as well as a seamless world to roam in

GW2 will be a fully persistent world that will employ instancing for it's story, dugeons & PvP. It won't be seamless though (loading screens between zones).

-will have crafting/gathering be more than a monotonous waiting game

Read and judge for yourself.

-has pvp and pve both fleshed out fully for end game and leveling without a hitch to one or the other

The game will have high level dungeons, dynamic events and WvWvW PvP (something that's only been done well in DAoC).

-has PvE end game that doesn't rely on instancing and is in the open world

Already mentioned high level DEs.

-gives you a reason to be out in the open world revisiting old and new places at level cap

Again... DEs and sidekicking system.

-has pvp that isn't short lived, cut throat or too strung out - empasizes the importance of players building social structures on their server

Instead of repeating myself I'll let this guy explain it.

-siege warfare that has more dynamics than simply banging on a door - makes making large selective groups i.e. pick up group raiding; easy

Again, I'll be lazy and let this vid answer this point I'm trying to make (answer is towards the end of the vid.

-gives incentives to explore and immerse yourself in the gaming world

The game does everything in it's power to promote exploration; from having dynamic events only available to those that go out in the world and look for them, to having your character's traits (similar to Wow's glyphs) only aquirable via. exploring the world and fulfilling certain tasks.

So yeah, I'm looking forward to what Guild Wars 2 is planning to bring to the stagnant MMO industry and I hope they succeed in doing so.

Crake_1 · June 2011

Originally posted by Master10K

Strange that you bring up these points, because nearly every single thing you listed will be in the upcoming MMORPG Guild Wars 2. This isn't even the fanboy talking but is actual features that are said to be in the game and will be in the game when it releases.

Originally posted by peedei

When will we have an MMO that:

-has character customization/animation as good as its compelling gameplay

Character customization is said to be as robust as Aion's character customization, plus you're able to enhance the RP factor of your character, by answering a couple question in your biography that will alter the story you partake in.

-brings the community together under social incentives

The very nature of its Dynamic Events (what replaces open-world questing) will bring people together, plus there will be dozens of fun activities in various cities (like bar brawls).

-uses old content as progression but not as a detriment to new content

The sidekicking system will allow higher level players to go back to lower level areas, without facerolling everything, by leveling them. Still get rewards though.

-makes every activity available a relevant contribution to your realm and your own progression

Again, dynamic events. Look it up.

-appease the masses with separate difficulty settings when applicable i.e. dungeons: story/normal/heroic = easy/normal/hard

Dugeons will come in easy story-mode and once you complete that, it'll unlock the harder explorable-mode, which is repeatable.

-understands we like instancing as well as a seamless world to roam in

GW2 will be a fully persistent world that will employ instancing for it's story, dugeons & PvP. It won't be seamless though (loading screens between zones).

-will have crafting/gathering be more than a monotonous waiting game

Read and judge for yourself.

-has pvp and pve both fleshed out fully for end game and leveling without a hitch to one or the other

The game will have high level dungeons, dynamic events and WvWvW PvP (something that's only been done well in DAoC).

-has PvE end game that doesn't rely on instancing and is in the open world

Already mentioned high level DEs.

-gives you a reason to be out in the open world revisiting old and new places at level cap

Again... DEs and sidekicking system.

-has pvp that isn't short lived, cut throat or too strung out - empasizes the importance of players building social structures on their server

Instead of repeating myself I'll let this guy explain it.

-siege warfare that has more dynamics than simply banging on a door - makes making large selective groups i.e. pick up group raiding; easy

Again, I'll be lazy and let this vid answer this point I'm trying to make (answer is towards the end of the vid.

-gives incentives to explore and immerse yourself in the gaming world

The game does everything in it's power to promote exploration; from having dynamic events only available to those that go out in the world and look for them, to having your character's traits (similar to Wow's glyphs) only aquirable via. exploring the world and fulfilling certain tasks.

So yeah, I'm looking forward to what Guild Wars 2 is planning to bring to the stagnant MMO industry and I hope they succeed in doing so.

This. I was going to say all of this, but Master10k ninja'd me.

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