Originally posted by olepi What is the difference between "griefing" and normal PvP? The normal PvP game has a goal, with benefits to winning. For example, you may get "Realm Points" or something to spend on improving your character skills or gear. Or, you may be attacking or defending a thing, a keep for example, and if you win or lose it it has an effect on the game. For example, take the keep and everybody gets a bonus stat. Xsyon has nothing like this. There is no actual PvP in that sense, since there is no reward for winning and no loss when you lose. Griefing is player-vs-player too, but the goal is purely to kill the player, there is no other reward. In PvP, I may kill you for a reason, in griefing, killing you is the reason. Xsyon is a griefer's paradise, since there is no normal PvP.
I like this.
That's your definition. Not what it has been for years. So many cowards whose first mmo experience was WOW have tainted the playerbase and turned it into a bunch of cowards who would be better served playing offline games.
Just to be clear, I have never played WoW. I played DAOC and had a blast in RvR. I loved PvP then. PvP and RvR had a purpose, there was a reason to kill someone. It was useful to take a keep, or kill off some attackers. That is PvP, at least to me. Griefing is where you kill someone for no reason. There is nothing to gain, no points, nothing to defend. The only reason to kill someone is because you like the feeling of it. Fighting in this way is like dueling, except one player doesn't want to duel. So the net effect is that the killer likes to kill and piss off the other players. That is griefing, IMHO.
Griefing has NOTHING to do with killing. Nor does it have to do with intent. It has to do with choices the other player has.
If you are on a PVP server and you die in PVP. That's NOT GRIEFING.
I could grief someone without ever attacking them. I can wall them in, I can kill steal. I can destroy all their resources. I could even kill anyone trying to trade with them.
PVP is just that Player VS Player. If I kill another player, that could be griefing, but its ALWAYS PVP.
There are many reasons for killing a player, NONE of them have any effect if something is griefing or not. What makes something griefing or not is the abuse and choice of the systems the person has.
If someone if harassing me in game with private messages, that is NOT griefing. Griefing would be if there was no /ignore system and you told them to stop PMing you, and they kept doing it. THAT is griefing. If there is an /ignore tool in game, and you DONT use it. Then its not griefing its just you being upset. Just /ignore the guy and move on with your day.
Same with player killing. If you are being killed by a player and there is NOTHING you can do (like spawn killing) then that could be griefing, if your only choice is to quit, or be killed over and over.
If someone is destroying your town there is nothing you can do to stop them. Then that's griefing. Now if you could stop them with force, or bringing 10 friends to kill him. Then that's NOT griefing that's a system in the game. If you dont like that system then dont play that game.
I wouldnt want to play a game where, someone could take 1000s of man hours from me in seconds of work. So I wouldnt play that game, but if a game were well balanced where it would take them 100s of hours to take that, and I could defend it with force or hiring someone with force then great I would love a game like that.
Doesnt mean its griefing. Heck that would mean in a game like Shadowbane, any time someone attacked your town, or sieged your town they would be griefing you.
Another form of griefing is "kill stealing". Many games have a NO PVP system where you cant attack another player. So there are problems with "kill stealing". You would attack a monster, and just before it dies, some guy will get the last shot getting credit, and able to get all the loot. That is also a form of griefing. BUT if its an open PVP world, and someone did that to you, then you attack and kill them. I see no griefing being done.
Xsyon has many goals. Attacking another player could be for their loot. Preventing them from taking resources, preventing them from building in the area, running them off so they cant see what you are doing. It could be many reasons. Killing someone in Xsyon does NOT = griefing.
Just to clarify my personal position before I get accused again: I am not a WOW kiddee, I played years of PvP in multpile MMO's, I bought Xsyon knowing it was FFA and don't mind it. I am not whining about being killed. I am actually interested in game design and what "griefing" is and how to discourage it. What kind of game attacts griefers and what kind doesn't. That is why I am posting. I am saying that a game that has no structured PvP, no loot worth stealing, nothing to protect, nothing to take away, no bonuses to PvP, with no barriers to PvP and no penalties, that game is a griefer's paradise.
No a griefer wouldnt want to play an FFA PVP game, where they can be punished for actions. They would play a game where they cant be punished. Games with zone areas where they can kill steal without getting killed, or punished. They would then also use other systems to get around and prevent people from doing things they normally wouldnt have a problem. Like join a party in a dungeon and then, get them all killed while at the boss.
Griefing has NOTHING to do with killing. Nor does it have to do with intent. It has to do with choices the other player has.
Xsyon has many goals. Attacking another player could be for their loot. Preventing them from taking resources, preventing them from building in the area, running them off so they cant see what you are doing. It could be many reasons. Killing someone in Xsyon does NOT = griefing.
No offense intended, but your statements are non-sense. Griefing has EVERYTHING to do with intent.
Most of (if not all) the examples you provide are not things that make it impossible to "deliberately irritate and harass other players." but factors that make certain methods of aggravating people ineffective. (I.e. sending offensive messages to people is still griefing, it's just not as effective if they can "/ignore").
From my understanding, weapons and armor provide trivial (if any) advantage, so most PKs are attacking naked and without weapons. Therefore, fighting back imposes a trivial penalty (respawning). The only other method left to players who don't want to PVP is to stay in their totem lands. If PKs end up limiting your experience of the game to just your tribal lands, with only trivial risk to themselves, that certainly irritates. Whether or not that was the deliberate intent of the PK may determine whether that was "griefing" but it doesn/t change the non-PVP players experience of the game.
open pvp simply doesnt work.. doesnt work in Real Life, why would in a Virtual world.
glad i avoided this one too.. well the signs were there..
Seems to be working pretty well in Afghanistan. Matter of fact in the real world there's nothing but open PvP. Is there anywhere on the planet where my gun won't work because I'm not allowed to shoot someone? The likelyhood of getting a res is about zero. Nidal Malik Hasan certainly managed to kill people on his own team.
Well yes, but if all the crafters in Afghanistan could up and move as easily as people can switch to a different MMO, Afghanistan would be a barren wasteland, home only to five psychotic pvpers and one determined tribe leader trying gamely to recruit anyone and everyone who happened to cross over the border by mistake.
Our ability to effortlessly abandon games we do not enjoy is the reason real life features like permadeath and 5 o'clock traffic have been done away with in most MMOs.
Although I would probably try a game that featured a permadeath server. Not a 5 o'clock traffic one, though. Realism should only be taken so far.
Edited because it came out all mangled and misspelled.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
Griefing has NOTHING to do with killing. Nor does it have to do with intent. It has to do with choices the other player has. Xsyon has many goals. Attacking another player could be for their loot. Preventing them from taking resources, preventing them from building in the area, running them off so they cant see what you are doing. It could be many reasons. Killing someone in Xsyon does NOT = griefing.
No offense intended, but your statements are non-sense. Griefing has EVERYTHING to do with intent. A griefer is a player in a multiplayervideo game that deliberately irritates and harasses other players. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer Most of (if not all) the examples you provide are not things that make it impossible to "deliberately irritate and harass other players." but factors that make certain methods of aggravating people ineffective. (I.e. sending offensive messages to people is still griefing, it's just not as effective if they can "/ignore"). From my understanding, weapons and armor provide trivial (if any) advantage, so most PKs are attacking naked and without weapons. Therefore, fighting back imposes a trivial penalty (respawning). The only other method left to players who don't want to PVP is to stay in their totem lands. If PKs end up limiting your experience of the game to just your tribal lands, with only trivial risk to themselves, that certainly irritates. Whether or not that was the deliberate intent of the PK may determine whether that was "griefing" but it doesn/t change the non-PVP players experience of the game.
Did you not read my posts? In this current game, if you die to a PKer, its because either you are AFK outside your totem area, or you wanted to fight. Simple as that.
You also do not play this game if you did you would know that armor and weapons have a HUGE effect in combat. Problem is no one gets to that level to understand it, and the combat is so desynced it doesnt really matter.
Armor gives about 3x your HP. Depending on QL. Weapons can do up to 3 or 4x the damage. Depending on the QL.
Also you dont understand that one of the worst things in game about dying is the RESPAWN as it takes many people 5+ mins to respawn.
Anyways, your point about harassing others = griefing is BS. It would be like saying, I lose in a duel well the guy griefed me. Because Im upset he won the duel over me.
Or what about losing in a "BattleGround" in WOW or Rift. Guess you were griefed.
Or another player ran up to a resource node and got it before me. Total griefer!!!
I see now why our legal system in the USA is getting so messed up. Its because people like you try to look at the letter of the law instead of the spirit of the law.
Griefing someone is when they have no recourse other than to stop playing or deal with it, when regarding actions.
Heck I could say you are griefing me by disagreeing with my point. Using your own example of griefing.
The sad part is, that open pvp games have almost no griefing, compared to safe type of PVE games. Because if someone is upset with the other in an open PVP game, they will just take their stuff, and kill them.
open pvp simply doesnt work.. doesnt work in Real Life, why would in a Virtual world.
glad i avoided this one too.. well the signs were there..
Seems to be working pretty well in Afghanistan. Matter of fact in the real world there's nothing but open PvP. Is there anywhere on the planet where my gun won't work because I'm not allowed to shoot someone? The likelyhood of getting a res is about zero. Nidal Malik Hasan certainly managed to kill people on his own team.
Well yes, but if all the crafters in Afghanistan could up and move as easily as people can switch to a different MMO, Afghanistan would be a barren wasteland, home only to five psychotic pvpers and one determined tribe leader trying gamely to recruit anyone and everyone who happened to cross over the border by mistake.
Our ability to effortlessly abandon games we do not enjoy is the reason real life features like permadeath and 5 o'clock traffic have been done away with in most MMOs.
Although I would probably try a game that featured a permadeath server. Not a 5 o'clock traffic one, though. Realism should only be taken so far.
Edited because it came out all mangled and misspelled.
Wolves killing sheep to the point of extinction. It's not the wolves fault because it's in there nature to hunt prey. But we are not talking about wolves here but players that cannot control there instincts. So history will repeat itself once again and the sheep will leave and the wolves will have nothing to prey on and then they will finally be forced to find new hunting grounds.
UO, Darkfall, Xsyon, the cycle continues.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Wolves killing sheep to the point of extinction. It's not the wolves fault because it's in there nature to hunt prey. But we are not talking about wolves here but players that cannot control there instincts. So history will repeat itself once again and the sheep will leave and the wolves will have nothing to prey on and then they will finally be forced to find new hunting grounds.
UO, Darkfall, Xsyon, the cycle continues.
It's not as much of an issue in Xsyon because safe zones do exist, and DDT, despite his deforestation phase (hopefully now at an end or greatly tapered off!) actually does post intelligently and helps new players in game most of the time. But the reason the wolves haven't driven the sheep away from Xsyon is the safe zones, same with Eve's hisec. Even Darkfall has areas where you can craft in relative safety, despite being touted as the most hardcore of the pvp crop.
I enjoyed your analogy. People used to think predators would stop kiling when they weren't hungry, but it turns out that prey without the means to flee or hide from predators is dead meat that's left to rot on the ground. Predators will kill every prey animal they can run down because it's their nature to do so, and there is a certain segment of the pvp crowd that will do the same to pvers. They even follow their MMO prey from game to game like wolves on the heels of a migrating herd!
Game mechanics that allow the prey limited safety take the place of natural predator/prey interaction. Nothing else will stop the predators. They're efficient killers. At least until they run out of players to kill.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
The problem is the wolves of today have no imagination to speak of, they are young pups full of bloodlust. Where are the pvp players that will work with the crafters, where are the defenders that will fight for them and in return the crafters will supply them the tools they seek.
You see it's not the games fault, it's the players that don't know how to be creative and still do the things they love. With cooperation comes greater levels of game play. But no they only love to kill and drive the non-aggressive players away and that inturn forces the pvpers to do something that they do not wish to do, and that is crafting!!
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
The problem is the wolves of today have no imagination to speak of, they are young pups full of bloodlust. Where are the pvp players that will work with the crafters, where are the defenders that will fight for them and in return the crafters will supply them the tools they seek.
You see it's not the games fault, it's the players that don't know how to be creative and still do the things they love. With cooperation comes greater levels of game play. But no they only love to kill and drive the non-aggressive players away and that inturn forces the pvpers to do something that they do not wish to do, and that is crafting!!
Soloers or part-time soloers make up a large part of the MMO market, so as soon as socialization is a requirement and not an option for enjoyable gameplay, you lose a huge chunk of the potential playerbase. Which is fine, if a game company can stand the hit to their bottom line and wishes to cater exclusively to the social and hypersocial crowd.
But there is another issue. Social and hypersocial players do sometimes interact in the way that you describe, symbiotically. But sometimes players who are very social dislike symbiotic relationships. These players will band together with like minded players and interact with other players in ways that more resemble parasitism or predation. So even social gamers will sometimes leave games rather than endure a subset of the game's population.
These things do happen in the real world, of course we all know that humans are capable of symbiotic relationships, but we are also capable of interacting as predators, prey, parasites, and hosts.
Real life has permadeath and other deterrents to bad behavior and we are the product of thousands of years of social indoctrination that begins before we can talk and continues throughout our lives. Even so, the truly powerful people rarely face retribution for causing others harm, and you can't open a newspaper to the local section without finding a case of someone who, despite all the indoctrination they received, snapped and came over the counter waving a knife at someone over the skyrocketing price of grilled cheese sandwiches.
So we're a species with a few screws loose, violent tendencies, and a history of being unpleasant to each other despite the supposed benefits of willing group cooperation. Besides, we like control, we like power, and we like certain victory. Given all that, how do you really expect people to behave in a game where there are no serious consequences for ruining the enjoyment of other players?
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
Different people have different play styles. I wouldn't consider someone to be griefing another person, regardless of whether or not there is "meaningful" PvP, unless they were doing something to me that I couldn't do right back to them. Or if my ability to play the game was impeded in a strong way that there is nothing to do in the game. Even if someone corpse camps me and if I have nothing additional to lose, I'll go run at them and fight them with my fists til I get bored of it and log out for a while or they get bored of it and then leave themselves.
Their reason for killing me is irrelevant. I never really think that they are killing me because they're total morons or idiots or whatever. They're killing me because they can. If I want them to stop, I need to make them stop.
Now if they have an unfair advantage, say they attack me in a safezone and I can't attack back. Yeah that's a bit of griefing right there. As long as we're on a level playing field, no big deal. A 70 killing a level 3 is a fair advantage. The level 3 can put in as much time as the 70 and be at their level. They just haven't yet or chosen not to do so.
So when you play a game where you know you can be killed and then complain about actually being killed, it makes me wonder exactly why you're playing the game. Either accept that they don't need a reason to kill you or don't play the game.
Wolves killing sheep to the point of extinction. It's not the wolves fault because it's in there nature to hunt prey. But we are not talking about wolves here but players that cannot control there instincts. So history will repeat itself once again and the sheep will leave and the wolves will have nothing to prey on and then they will finally be forced to find new hunting grounds.
UO, Darkfall, Xsyon, the cycle continues.
This is sorta a valid point IF there were not some safe guards to prevent the wolves from preying on the sheep. In Xsyon, and in UO (now after the trammel update), you have prevents that stop wolves from just going bloodlust crazy on every sheep they see.
Sheep in Xsyon have many many many ways to prevent the wolves from harming them, and their friends. Infact its so much, that Xsyon is less of an open PVP game and more of a safe area PVP game.
As a PVPer, I have a much much much harder time killing someone, then they do to stop me from killing them or looting them.
I never got greifed in this game... its far too easy to avoid it.. I played from late beta to , maybe 2 months into release. I wanted to like this game more then any game I think I have played since UO. I even fought my inner thoughts telling me "Hey man, Wtf are you doing playing this garbage?" and continued to play for weeks. Finally I was honest with myself and cancelled my account. I was extremely bummed out because this game was almost everything Ive been wanting in a game.. but it didnt deliver. Luckily I have moved on to more logical ways to spend my mmo time then some shell of a once populated sandbox mmo (sad)
You also do not play this game if you did you would know that armor and weapons have a HUGE effect in combat. Problem is no one gets to that level to understand it, and the combat is so desynced it doesnt really matter.
Also you dont understand that one of the worst things in game about dying is the RESPAWN as it takes many people 5+ mins to respawn.
You are correct that I do not play. Your arguments are not very persuasive that anyone should play, though.
"Griefing" doing anything with the primary intent of annoying or aggravating the person the other person. You may find my response aggravating, but my primary intent is to express my opinion, not aggravting you. You are correct on 2 points about the game. If the PKs are killing over resources or to enforce their control of territory outside of their own tribal lands, it is not "griefing", There are methods in game to make "griefing" tactics less effective. OTOH, some of those tactics limit a players experience too much [1) "Goto your totem area." (and stay there) 2) Dont bring the items.] rely on weird mechanics [Setting your baskets to private.]
In the end though, it doesn't REALLY matter whether the PKs are "griefing" or limiting your access to resources and territory that they feel belongs to them.
Right or wrong, my impression of the game is from this forum (and Shawn's relatively positive assessment on the Massively podcast) My impression is that in tribal lands you face resource exhaustion and lack of anything to do http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4230778#4230778. Outside tribal lands offers very little PVE (bear, deer, wolf, and raccoon IIRC) driving combat oriented types to PK anyone they run into with little or no penalty. People have posted multiple times that crafted armors and weapons are next to useless, and your response to me was the first time I've seen anyone contradict that.
You can generally spot the PK'rs in this game a mile away - they are very short (smaller hitbox) and are wearing speedos.
I still play this game, and have TWO accounts-although not everyday because I'm reliving my TA addiction(thanks to GOG dot com).
Not many players are left nowadays which means it's basically safe for me to travel or harvest in peace. The nut-jobs who were killing just for their excitement have gone back to MO or Darkfall.
The current state of the game would be very late Beta which is a very good job considering the size of the company that has created this game. This small Indie crew putting out a very good product (so far) cannot be compared to the Multi-million dollar budget efforts of so many other game producers.
You also do not play this game if you did you would know that armor and weapons have a HUGE effect in combat. Problem is no one gets to that level to understand it, and the combat is so desynced it doesnt really matter. Also you dont understand that one of the worst things in game about dying is the RESPAWN as it takes many people 5+ mins to respawn.
You are correct that I do not play. Your arguments are not very persuasive that anyone should play, though. "Griefing" doing anything with the primary intent of annoying or aggravating the person the other person. You may find my response aggravating, but my primary intent is to express my opinion, not aggravting you. You are correct on 2 points about the game. If the PKs are killing over resources or to enforce their control of territory outside of their own tribal lands, it is not "griefing", There are methods in game to make "griefing" tactics less effective. OTOH, some of those tactics limit a players experience too much [1) "Goto your totem area." (and stay there) 2) Dont bring the items.] rely on weird mechanics [Setting your baskets to private.] In the end though, it doesn't REALLY matter whether the PKs are "griefing" or limiting your access to resources and territory that they feel belongs to them. Right or wrong, my impression of the game is from this forum (and Shawn's relatively positive assessment on the Massively podcast) My impression is that in tribal lands you face resource exhaustion and lack of anything to do http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4230778#4230778. Outside tribal lands offers very little PVE (bear, deer, wolf, and raccoon IIRC) driving combat oriented types to PK anyone they run into with little or no penalty. People have posted multiple times that crafted armors and weapons are next to useless, and your response to me was the first time I've seen anyone contradict that. http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4208517#4208517 http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4272334#4272334 http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4272820#4272820
We havnt even got to the best armor and weapons yet. "Supreme" heck even the preorders that people are crying about are only "Very high quality" which is 2 tiers lower than Supreme.
Ive yet to see anyone in game griefing others, mostly because there isnt "others" to really grief.
Its just like the other day, I ran into a guy, he was fishing. I go up to him and kill him he doesnt move or anything. So ok, whatever. About 5 mins later, I get a spam of hate tells saying Im griefing him and that Im "P***y" saying I wont fight in the open blah blah. I dont see how randomly killing someone is even remotely griefing anyone. Its an open PVP world. Sure you might have a 5min respawn and you might have lost some items, but how is that griefing?
Tribal lands resources running into exhaustion COULD be a problem, but its not. Any smart tribe will never run out of resources (other than trees) on tribe lands.
I agree that PKers have little to no penalty at this time for killing people. The harshest one is maybe people wont trade with them in local area. Which really isnt that big of a deal. But again, this isnt a problem as there isnt anyone playing the game to PK nor would a PKer want to go PKing because in about an hour of not finding someone they would log off, OR when they do find someone they cant kill them.
You are stating a lot of issues with the game, BUT its not because of OPEN pvp or PKers griefing people. Its because the game has many major issues and lacking things to do.
The game just needs a lot more work. Which most of us knew going into it. And those who bought the game without knowing had ample opportunity for refunds, which isn't something most devs will even consider doing. I played Xsyon today for several hours, and I enjoyed myself thoroughly, and I was also on a couple of days ago, exploring (I was never in any danger of being ganked because I was out in the boonies). But that doesn't mean the game is anywhere near finished.
The game will need a bigger population. And pvpers should be part of that population. It's just that turning players loose on other players inside safe zones doesn't seem like a good idea until combat is fixed, working gates and other defenses are in, penalties for being a pker exist, baskets can't be locked to prevent looting, and pvping naked is no longer an option.
I also think new players should have some pvp protection when they first enter the game, say an hour to get to where they are going and set up their tribe. The only reason I think this is because the only people who are truly hurt by pkers are new players who get the tools they need to establish themselves looted. Everyone else can laugh and get over it, the world is big and underpopulated and if you aren't afk fishing (which you aren't supposed to be anyway), you can usually run away. Or just fight back and have fun.
If you're out in the world with something you can't replace yourself, you're just silly and you deserve to be looted. If you're new and you've set up your ttotem but you need baskets or tools, start asking around in local (it covers several zones), the community is overall much nicer than most MMO communities (even MrDDT when he's not in a clear cutting mood) and people will give you tools or let you haul wood, scrap, or branches to earn them.
But if you are going to talk smack to a pker, please do it in local chat and be creative, us crafters like a little entertainment on the side from time to time!
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
Comments
Griefing has NOTHING to do with killing. Nor does it have to do with intent. It has to do with choices the other player has.
If you are on a PVP server and you die in PVP. That's NOT GRIEFING.
I could grief someone without ever attacking them. I can wall them in, I can kill steal. I can destroy all their resources. I could even kill anyone trying to trade with them.
PVP is just that Player VS Player. If I kill another player, that could be griefing, but its ALWAYS PVP.
There are many reasons for killing a player, NONE of them have any effect if something is griefing or not. What makes something griefing or not is the abuse and choice of the systems the person has.
If someone if harassing me in game with private messages, that is NOT griefing. Griefing would be if there was no /ignore system and you told them to stop PMing you, and they kept doing it. THAT is griefing.
If there is an /ignore tool in game, and you DONT use it. Then its not griefing its just you being upset. Just /ignore the guy and move on with your day.
Same with player killing. If you are being killed by a player and there is NOTHING you can do (like spawn killing) then that could be griefing, if your only choice is to quit, or be killed over and over.
If someone is destroying your town there is nothing you can do to stop them. Then that's griefing. Now if you could stop them with force, or bringing 10 friends to kill him. Then that's NOT griefing that's a system in the game. If you dont like that system then dont play that game.
I wouldnt want to play a game where, someone could take 1000s of man hours from me in seconds of work. So I wouldnt play that game, but if a game were well balanced where it would take them 100s of hours to take that, and I could defend it with force or hiring someone with force then great I would love a game like that.
Doesnt mean its griefing.
Heck that would mean in a game like Shadowbane, any time someone attacked your town, or sieged your town they would be griefing you.
Another form of griefing is "kill stealing". Many games have a NO PVP system where you cant attack another player. So there are problems with "kill stealing". You would attack a monster, and just before it dies, some guy will get the last shot getting credit, and able to get all the loot. That is also a form of griefing. BUT if its an open PVP world, and someone did that to you, then you attack and kill them. I see no griefing being done.
Xsyon has many goals. Attacking another player could be for their loot. Preventing them from taking resources, preventing them from building in the area, running them off so they cant see what you are doing. It could be many reasons. Killing someone in Xsyon does NOT = griefing.
-MrDDT
No a griefer wouldnt want to play an FFA PVP game, where they can be punished for actions. They would play a game where they cant be punished.
Games with zone areas where they can kill steal without getting killed, or punished. They would then also use other systems to get around and prevent people from doing things they normally wouldnt have a problem. Like join a party in a dungeon and then, get them all killed while at the boss.
-MrDDT
open pvp simply doesnt work.. doesnt work in Real Life, why would in a Virtual world.
glad i avoided this one too.. well the signs were there..
No offense intended, but your statements are non-sense. Griefing has EVERYTHING to do with intent.
A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game that deliberately irritates and harasses other players. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer
Most of (if not all) the examples you provide are not things that make it impossible to "deliberately irritate and harass other players." but factors that make certain methods of aggravating people ineffective. (I.e. sending offensive messages to people is still griefing, it's just not as effective if they can "/ignore").
From my understanding, weapons and armor provide trivial (if any) advantage, so most PKs are attacking naked and without weapons. Therefore, fighting back imposes a trivial penalty (respawning). The only other method left to players who don't want to PVP is to stay in their totem lands. If PKs end up limiting your experience of the game to just your tribal lands, with only trivial risk to themselves, that certainly irritates. Whether or not that was the deliberate intent of the PK may determine whether that was "griefing" but it doesn/t change the non-PVP players experience of the game.
LMAO...
Yes, because most MMOs so closely mirror life.
I win!!! LOL@U
Well yes, but if all the crafters in Afghanistan could up and move as easily as people can switch to a different MMO, Afghanistan would be a barren wasteland, home only to five psychotic pvpers and one determined tribe leader trying gamely to recruit anyone and everyone who happened to cross over the border by mistake.
Our ability to effortlessly abandon games we do not enjoy is the reason real life features like permadeath and 5 o'clock traffic have been done away with in most MMOs.
Although I would probably try a game that featured a permadeath server. Not a 5 o'clock traffic one, though. Realism should only be taken so far.
Edited because it came out all mangled and misspelled.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
Did you not read my posts?
In this current game, if you die to a PKer, its because either you are AFK outside your totem area, or you wanted to fight. Simple as that.
You also do not play this game if you did you would know that armor and weapons have a HUGE effect in combat. Problem is no one gets to that level to understand it, and the combat is so desynced it doesnt really matter.
Armor gives about 3x your HP. Depending on QL.
Weapons can do up to 3 or 4x the damage. Depending on the QL.
Also you dont understand that one of the worst things in game about dying is the RESPAWN as it takes many people 5+ mins to respawn.
Anyways, your point about harassing others = griefing is BS. It would be like saying, I lose in a duel well the guy griefed me. Because Im upset he won the duel over me.
Or what about losing in a "BattleGround" in WOW or Rift. Guess you were griefed.
Or another player ran up to a resource node and got it before me. Total griefer!!!
I see now why our legal system in the USA is getting so messed up. Its because people like you try to look at the letter of the law instead of the spirit of the law.
Griefing someone is when they have no recourse other than to stop playing or deal with it, when regarding actions.
Heck I could say you are griefing me by disagreeing with my point. Using your own example of griefing.
The sad part is, that open pvp games have almost no griefing, compared to safe type of PVE games. Because if someone is upset with the other in an open PVP game, they will just take their stuff, and kill them.
-MrDDT
So what is working in real life? Because in real life, it is 100% open PVP. Sure there are anti PVPers. But the whole world is 100% open PVP.
-MrDDT
Lol
True and well said.
Wolves killing sheep to the point of extinction. It's not the wolves fault because it's in there nature to hunt prey. But we are not talking about wolves here but players that cannot control there instincts. So history will repeat itself once again and the sheep will leave and the wolves will have nothing to prey on and then they will finally be forced to find new hunting grounds.
UO, Darkfall, Xsyon, the cycle continues.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
It's not as much of an issue in Xsyon because safe zones do exist, and DDT, despite his deforestation phase (hopefully now at an end or greatly tapered off!) actually does post intelligently and helps new players in game most of the time. But the reason the wolves haven't driven the sheep away from Xsyon is the safe zones, same with Eve's hisec. Even Darkfall has areas where you can craft in relative safety, despite being touted as the most hardcore of the pvp crop.
I enjoyed your analogy. People used to think predators would stop kiling when they weren't hungry, but it turns out that prey without the means to flee or hide from predators is dead meat that's left to rot on the ground. Predators will kill every prey animal they can run down because it's their nature to do so, and there is a certain segment of the pvp crowd that will do the same to pvers. They even follow their MMO prey from game to game like wolves on the heels of a migrating herd!
Game mechanics that allow the prey limited safety take the place of natural predator/prey interaction. Nothing else will stop the predators. They're efficient killers. At least until they run out of players to kill.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
The problem is the wolves of today have no imagination to speak of, they are young pups full of bloodlust. Where are the pvp players that will work with the crafters, where are the defenders that will fight for them and in return the crafters will supply them the tools they seek.
You see it's not the games fault, it's the players that don't know how to be creative and still do the things they love. With cooperation comes greater levels of game play. But no they only love to kill and drive the non-aggressive players away and that inturn forces the pvpers to do something that they do not wish to do, and that is crafting!!
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Soloers or part-time soloers make up a large part of the MMO market, so as soon as socialization is a requirement and not an option for enjoyable gameplay, you lose a huge chunk of the potential playerbase. Which is fine, if a game company can stand the hit to their bottom line and wishes to cater exclusively to the social and hypersocial crowd.
But there is another issue. Social and hypersocial players do sometimes interact in the way that you describe, symbiotically. But sometimes players who are very social dislike symbiotic relationships. These players will band together with like minded players and interact with other players in ways that more resemble parasitism or predation. So even social gamers will sometimes leave games rather than endure a subset of the game's population.
These things do happen in the real world, of course we all know that humans are capable of symbiotic relationships, but we are also capable of interacting as predators, prey, parasites, and hosts.
Real life has permadeath and other deterrents to bad behavior and we are the product of thousands of years of social indoctrination that begins before we can talk and continues throughout our lives. Even so, the truly powerful people rarely face retribution for causing others harm, and you can't open a newspaper to the local section without finding a case of someone who, despite all the indoctrination they received, snapped and came over the counter waving a knife at someone over the skyrocketing price of grilled cheese sandwiches.
So we're a species with a few screws loose, violent tendencies, and a history of being unpleasant to each other despite the supposed benefits of willing group cooperation. Besides, we like control, we like power, and we like certain victory. Given all that, how do you really expect people to behave in a game where there are no serious consequences for ruining the enjoyment of other players?
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
Different people have different play styles. I wouldn't consider someone to be griefing another person, regardless of whether or not there is "meaningful" PvP, unless they were doing something to me that I couldn't do right back to them. Or if my ability to play the game was impeded in a strong way that there is nothing to do in the game. Even if someone corpse camps me and if I have nothing additional to lose, I'll go run at them and fight them with my fists til I get bored of it and log out for a while or they get bored of it and then leave themselves.
Their reason for killing me is irrelevant. I never really think that they are killing me because they're total morons or idiots or whatever. They're killing me because they can. If I want them to stop, I need to make them stop.
Now if they have an unfair advantage, say they attack me in a safezone and I can't attack back. Yeah that's a bit of griefing right there. As long as we're on a level playing field, no big deal. A 70 killing a level 3 is a fair advantage. The level 3 can put in as much time as the 70 and be at their level. They just haven't yet or chosen not to do so.
So when you play a game where you know you can be killed and then complain about actually being killed, it makes me wonder exactly why you're playing the game. Either accept that they don't need a reason to kill you or don't play the game.
This is sorta a valid point IF there were not some safe guards to prevent the wolves from preying on the sheep. In Xsyon, and in UO (now after the trammel update), you have prevents that stop wolves from just going bloodlust crazy on every sheep they see.
Sheep in Xsyon have many many many ways to prevent the wolves from harming them, and their friends. Infact its so much, that Xsyon is less of an open PVP game and more of a safe area PVP game.
As a PVPer, I have a much much much harder time killing someone, then they do to stop me from killing them or looting them.
Anyone that has played Xsyon would know this.
-MrDDT
I never got greifed in this game... its far too easy to avoid it.. I played from late beta to , maybe 2 months into release. I wanted to like this game more then any game I think I have played since UO. I even fought my inner thoughts telling me "Hey man, Wtf are you doing playing this garbage?" and continued to play for weeks. Finally I was honest with myself and cancelled my account. I was extremely bummed out because this game was almost everything Ive been wanting in a game.. but it didnt deliver. Luckily I have moved on to more logical ways to spend my mmo time then some shell of a once populated sandbox mmo (sad)
You are correct that I do not play. Your arguments are not very persuasive that anyone should play, though.
"Griefing" doing anything with the primary intent of annoying or aggravating the person the other person. You may find my response aggravating, but my primary intent is to express my opinion, not aggravting you. You are correct on 2 points about the game. If the PKs are killing over resources or to enforce their control of territory outside of their own tribal lands, it is not "griefing", There are methods in game to make "griefing" tactics less effective. OTOH, some of those tactics limit a players experience too much [1) "Goto your totem area." (and stay there) 2) Dont bring the items.] rely on weird mechanics [Setting your baskets to private.]
In the end though, it doesn't REALLY matter whether the PKs are "griefing" or limiting your access to resources and territory that they feel belongs to them.
Right or wrong, my impression of the game is from this forum (and Shawn's relatively positive assessment on the Massively podcast) My impression is that in tribal lands you face resource exhaustion and lack of anything to do http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4230778#4230778. Outside tribal lands offers very little PVE (bear, deer, wolf, and raccoon IIRC) driving combat oriented types to PK anyone they run into with little or no penalty. People have posted multiple times that crafted armors and weapons are next to useless, and your response to me was the first time I've seen anyone contradict that.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4208517#4208517
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4272334#4272334
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4272820#4272820
You can generally spot the PK'rs in this game a mile away - they are very short (smaller hitbox) and are wearing speedos.
I still play this game, and have TWO accounts-although not everyday because I'm reliving my TA addiction(thanks to GOG dot com).
Not many players are left nowadays which means it's basically safe for me to travel or harvest in peace. The nut-jobs who were killing just for their excitement have gone back to MO or Darkfall.
The current state of the game would be very late Beta which is a very good job considering the size of the company that has created this game. This small Indie crew putting out a very good product (so far) cannot be compared to the Multi-million dollar budget efforts of so many other game producers.
XYSON IS NOT A WOW CLONE
We havnt even got to the best armor and weapons yet. "Supreme" heck even the preorders that people are crying about are only "Very high quality" which is 2 tiers lower than Supreme.
Ive yet to see anyone in game griefing others, mostly because there isnt "others" to really grief.
Its just like the other day, I ran into a guy, he was fishing. I go up to him and kill him he doesnt move or anything. So ok, whatever. About 5 mins later, I get a spam of hate tells saying Im griefing him and that Im "P***y" saying I wont fight in the open blah blah.
I dont see how randomly killing someone is even remotely griefing anyone. Its an open PVP world. Sure you might have a 5min respawn and you might have lost some items, but how is that griefing?
Tribal lands resources running into exhaustion COULD be a problem, but its not. Any smart tribe will never run out of resources (other than trees) on tribe lands.
I agree that PKers have little to no penalty at this time for killing people. The harshest one is maybe people wont trade with them in local area. Which really isnt that big of a deal.
But again, this isnt a problem as there isnt anyone playing the game to PK nor would a PKer want to go PKing because in about an hour of not finding someone they would log off, OR when they do find someone they cant kill them.
You are stating a lot of issues with the game, BUT its not because of OPEN pvp or PKers griefing people.
Its because the game has many major issues and lacking things to do.
-MrDDT
The game just needs a lot more work. Which most of us knew going into it. And those who bought the game without knowing had ample opportunity for refunds, which isn't something most devs will even consider doing. I played Xsyon today for several hours, and I enjoyed myself thoroughly, and I was also on a couple of days ago, exploring (I was never in any danger of being ganked because I was out in the boonies). But that doesn't mean the game is anywhere near finished.
The game will need a bigger population. And pvpers should be part of that population. It's just that turning players loose on other players inside safe zones doesn't seem like a good idea until combat is fixed, working gates and other defenses are in, penalties for being a pker exist, baskets can't be locked to prevent looting, and pvping naked is no longer an option.
I also think new players should have some pvp protection when they first enter the game, say an hour to get to where they are going and set up their tribe. The only reason I think this is because the only people who are truly hurt by pkers are new players who get the tools they need to establish themselves looted. Everyone else can laugh and get over it, the world is big and underpopulated and if you aren't afk fishing (which you aren't supposed to be anyway), you can usually run away. Or just fight back and have fun.
If you're out in the world with something you can't replace yourself, you're just silly and you deserve to be looted. If you're new and you've set up your ttotem but you need baskets or tools, start asking around in local (it covers several zones), the community is overall much nicer than most MMO communities (even MrDDT when he's not in a clear cutting mood) and people will give you tools or let you haul wood, scrap, or branches to earn them.
But if you are going to talk smack to a pker, please do it in local chat and be creative, us crafters like a little entertainment on the side from time to time!
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein