Originally posted by Gdemami P2W means that there is an item or service that is available exclusively for real currency and is affecting the game play and/or affects the game balance.
But that's not true of the suggested future of AUR. Buying PLEXes can do only 2 things: increase your subscription time, or you can sell it for ISK. But with AUR, you may be able to buy special (read different and better) ammo and/or ships. Sure you could sell them on the market for ISK(at a markup), or you could keep them to yourself and have an advantage over your oppenent, given all other things equal. That's P2W in my book.
Yes of course PLEX is a form of pay2win, unless you restrict the definition of pay2win as only the very limited case of buying EXCLUSIVE items in a cash shop. But most gamers don't have that very very narrow view of pay2win, and most define pay2win as the purchasing with real life money things that benefit you ingame. For example gold buying is almost universally viewed as a form of pay2win which is why it is a bannable offense in most MMOs.
As an example in EVE, CCP actually endorses the purchases of PLEX, which can be used to obtain ISK, which can be used to obtain ships, fittings, ammo, even veteran characters.
As a very very specific example in EVE, a brand new player who just created an account can purchase PLEX in enough quantities to afford the purchase of a veteran character and all his items. Essentially becoming an instant 5+ year veteran if they are willing to spend enough real life dollars. Those that don't consider that an example pay2win are just contorting the definition of it...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
I think there are a number of mechanics that work to keep "pay2win" in check.
PLEX cannot (at this time :P) buy a "kill button".
Whatever you do purchase with ISK earned from selling PLEX in-game still requires that you have invested the time to train up adequate skills to use what you purchased.
Any encounter can end with the modules/ships you purchased blowing up or being dropped for the opposing party to loot.
Now, if you want to say PLEX, for many players, is a short-cut to earning ISK, then sure, that might be the case. But ultimately, that ISK they get does not give them access to anything that the ISK I earned can get me. As Gdemami pointed out, ISK is only one factor in the overall picture. Last I checked, throwing ISK at another player didn't do much damage....
Now, a conventional argument is that PLEX allows the player with less time, and more expendable income to still participate in various aspects of the game. I mean, if someone were to pvp a lot, but didn't have much of a revenue stream otherwise, PLEX would allow them to continue purchasing player made ships/modules and getting them destroyed (or destroying someone elses). So, perhaps there are multiple winners in the PLEX scenario
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Are you saying that there already was system in which players traded ingame currency for real money, and was this approved ? EDIT: nwm I read the answer and it is yes
If that is the case, I really don't see what the problem is .. or rather why the problem gets worse with an item shop - I hate any kind of virtual goods for money transactions, whether it be gold farmers or companies.
Main reason people are complaining is the fact that this (in the 0.000001% probability that it would even happen) would bring prices of PLEX up, therefore making it harder for people to play Eve for free.
By allowing people to transfer gametime as in game items they pretty much shot themselves on foot when it comes to monthly income from subs so now they're hurting for money.
This is total BS. Whether you buy PLEX with RL cash or ISK the money for that PLEX was paid to CCP at some point by some player. They are making the exact same income from subs with or without PLEX. PLEX just allows players to trade game time on the in game market like any other commodity. It actually was a brilliant strategy on CCP's part as it doesn't really add anything to the game that wasn't already there (subscription game time) and it put the third party ISK farmers/sellers pretty much out of business overnight.
As for the OPs question... Even is you made yourself incredibly wealthy by selling plex you still can't use anything you don't have the skills for. Skills take time to gain so everyone is still pretty much on an even footing.
Originally posted by Nerf09 How much grind time is 11B isk?
Hm...depends a lot on who and where you are grinding.
I think you could make 30-100M per hour by the most basic grinding(running missions and anomaly hunting). There are many, many ways how to earn ISK in EVE.
As for the OPs question... Even is you made yourself incredibly wealthy by selling plex you still can't use anything you don't have the skills for. Skills take time to gain so everyone is still pretty much on an even footing.
Bren
Actually you can use that wealth to buy a veteran character, which is also supported and endorsed by CCP. There are some very very veteran characters available for sale right now.
PLEX is pay2win by almost every definition, other than the very limited definition of "buying EXCLUSIVE items from cash shop."
Not sure why some go through such contortions to say it isn't pay2win, just because it was implemented in a way that didn't cause a massive revolt of veterans. They didn't revolt because the particular implementation of this pay2win model allows veterans to essentially play for free or fund alt accounts, basically with the money the newer players are pumping into the game for their pay2win stuff...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Originally posted by gainesvilleg [ PLEX is pay2win by almost every definition, other than the very limited definition of "buying EXCLUSIVE items from cash shop."
There is no other definition.
Calling things they are not just because you consider them to be certain way won't make you a point nor make you right.
Hm...depends a lot on who and where you are grinding.
I think you could make 30-100M per hour by the most basic grinding(running missions and anomaly hunting). There are many, many ways how to earn ISK in EVE.
LOL, a newish player has absolutely no chance of making that kind of money. Maybe a veteran could, but it is the newer players that can pay2win by buying PLEX. The veterans who can grind that kind of ISK are using it to buy this PLEX so they can play for free and fund their alt accounts.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
People think of EvE as they would any other MMO. They believe that the gear makes the character, or in EvE's case, the ship and it''s equipment. Big thing is, you could buy BILLIONS of ISK worth of Plex, sell them off for ISK and it wouldn't do you a stitch of good. You need the skills to use those ships, the more advanced the ship the more skill points required. Also, you need skill points to use the more advanced items you want to equip your ship with.
Sure, you can buy a character on the exchange, but you'll only suffer for it (unless you're already a player and simply don't want to spend the time leveling up another character). Why? Because all that money that you spent will very, VERY quickly end up in a more experienced player's cargo hold. Notice I didn't say older player, but experienced. There are guys who have not been playing since launch who are clever...VERY clever. They don't need billion isk ships and fits or 5 years worth of skill points. This game allows for conmen and women. Couple that with gullible newbs who refuse to listen to advice and who just HAVE to have the best stuff their bought character can fit....well, those new people find themselves podded and broke pretty quick.
So no, it's definately not P2W....at least not yet.
PLEX is pay2win by almost every definition, other than the very limited definition of "buying EXCLUSIVE items from cash shop."
There is no other definition.
Calling things they are not just because you consider them to be certain way won't make you a point nor make you right.
Fine, then we have the answer:
1) EVE is not pay2win if your viewpoint is that pay2win = "Using real life money to buy EXCLUSIVE items from a cash shop"
2) EVE is pay2win if your viewpoint is that pay2win = "Using real life money to buy things that help you ingame, such as ships, fittings, ammo, and even including buying veteran characters"
There, confusion solved. The answer depends on how you define pay2win.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
I see a lot of sales of chars with loads of sp's for plex, is this legal in the game?
Yes, it is legal and endorsed by CCP. A brand spanking new player can buy a 5 year veteran character the day they create their account.
Somehow, many EVE players don't consider that pay2win though. LOL.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Go buy one and meet me in Low Sec, I'll show you how "P2W" you are! Make sure to buy some extra plexes and put them in your cargo hold...you know, to make it worth my while.
PLEX is pay2win by almost every definition, other than the very limited definition of "buying EXCLUSIVE items from cash shop."
There is no other definition.
Calling things they are not just because you consider them to be certain way won't make you a point nor make you right.
Fine, then we have the answer:
1) EVE is not pay2win if your viewpoint is that pay2win = "Using real life money to buy EXCLUSIVE items from a cash shop"
2) EVE is pay2win if your viewpoint is that pay2win = "Using real life money to buy things that help you ingame, such as ships, fittings, ammo, and even including buying veteran characters"
There, confusion solved. The answer depends on how you define pay2win.
I tend to subscribe to the second definition, so I guess I would call EVE P2W.
Makes me wonder what all the fuss is about it tbh.
PLEX is pay2win by almost every definition, other than the very limited definition of "buying EXCLUSIVE items from cash shop."
There is no other definition.
Calling things they are not just because you consider them to be certain way won't make you a point nor make you right.
Fine, then we have the answer:
1) EVE is not pay2win if your viewpoint is that pay2win = "Using real life money to buy EXCLUSIVE items from a cash shop"
2) EVE is pay2win if your viewpoint is that pay2win = "Using real life money to buy things that help you ingame, such as ships, fittings, ammo, and even including buying veteran characters"
There, confusion solved. The answer depends on how you define pay2win.
I tend to subscribe to the second definition, so I guess I would call EVE P2W.
Makes me wonder what all the fuss is about it tbh.
Exactly what do you win by having ISK again, because I'm pretty sure I missed that part.
PLEX is pay2win by almost every definition, other than the very limited definition of "buying EXCLUSIVE items from cash shop."
There is no other definition.
Calling things they are not just because you consider them to be certain way won't make you a point nor make you right.
Fine, then we have the answer:
1) EVE is not pay2win if your viewpoint is that pay2win = "Using real life money to buy EXCLUSIVE items from a cash shop"
2) EVE is pay2win if your viewpoint is that pay2win = "Using real life money to buy things that help you ingame, such as ships, fittings, ammo, and even including buying veteran characters"
There, confusion solved. The answer depends on how you define pay2win.
I tend to subscribe to the second definition, so I guess I would call EVE P2W.
Makes me wonder what all the fuss is about it tbh.
Exactly what do you win by having ISK again, because I'm pretty sure I missed that part.
well, wouldnt you use isk to buy gear etc?
and arnt a lot of EVE players up in arms because CCP might soon be selling gear etc?
You win at making pirates rich! You also win at having the entire community laugh at you because you were stupid enough to buy a character you didn't know how to play and got yourself all blowed up. The community is great to those that wish to learn, but they have zero tolerance for stupidity.
PLEX is pay2win by almost every definition, other than the very limited definition of "buying EXCLUSIVE items from cash shop."
There is no other definition.
Calling things they are not just because you consider them to be certain way won't make you a point nor make you right.
Fine, then we have the answer:
1) EVE is not pay2win if your viewpoint is that pay2win = "Using real life money to buy EXCLUSIVE items from a cash shop"
2) EVE is pay2win if your viewpoint is that pay2win = "Using real life money to buy things that help you ingame, such as ships, fittings, ammo, and even including buying veteran characters"
There, confusion solved. The answer depends on how you define pay2win.
I tend to subscribe to the second definition, so I guess I would call EVE P2W.
Makes me wonder what all the fuss is about it tbh.
Now, the fuss in my opinion is really about the type of pay2win model in EVE.. The current pay2win model EVE uses is fairly well integrated into the economy of the game, and there is a financial benefit to veterans with the current pay2win system. Kind of a payola of sorts that keeps them happy: veterans can earn ISK in game and trade it for PLEX which allows them to play for free and/or fund alt accounts. Long-term veterans can earn amazing amounts of ISK.
The new system CCP is introducing would cut veterans out of the equation and would impact the ingame economy as well. The new system would not allow veterans to play for free anymore or fund their alt accounts...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Comments
There is a difference between use and definition.
I defined the word to be clear so we both speak about the same. You may feel otherwise about the use of the term but then you won't be understood.
But that's not true of the suggested future of AUR. Buying PLEXes can do only 2 things: increase your subscription time, or you can sell it for ISK. But with AUR, you may be able to buy special (read different and better) ammo and/or ships. Sure you could sell them on the market for ISK(at a markup), or you could keep them to yourself and have an advantage over your oppenent, given all other things equal. That's P2W in my book.
How do you win by buying a cosmetic item?
Eleanor Rigby.
Yes of course PLEX is a form of pay2win, unless you restrict the definition of pay2win as only the very limited case of buying EXCLUSIVE items in a cash shop. But most gamers don't have that very very narrow view of pay2win, and most define pay2win as the purchasing with real life money things that benefit you ingame. For example gold buying is almost universally viewed as a form of pay2win which is why it is a bannable offense in most MMOs.
As an example in EVE, CCP actually endorses the purchases of PLEX, which can be used to obtain ISK, which can be used to obtain ships, fittings, ammo, even veteran characters.
As a very very specific example in EVE, a brand new player who just created an account can purchase PLEX in enough quantities to afford the purchase of a veteran character and all his items. Essentially becoming an instant 5+ year veteran if they are willing to spend enough real life dollars. Those that don't consider that an example pay2win are just contorting the definition of it...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
How much grind time is 11B isk?
I think there are a number of mechanics that work to keep "pay2win" in check.
PLEX cannot (at this time :P) buy a "kill button".
Whatever you do purchase with ISK earned from selling PLEX in-game still requires that you have invested the time to train up adequate skills to use what you purchased.
Any encounter can end with the modules/ships you purchased blowing up or being dropped for the opposing party to loot.
Now, if you want to say PLEX, for many players, is a short-cut to earning ISK, then sure, that might be the case. But ultimately, that ISK they get does not give them access to anything that the ISK I earned can get me. As Gdemami pointed out, ISK is only one factor in the overall picture. Last I checked, throwing ISK at another player didn't do much damage....
Now, a conventional argument is that PLEX allows the player with less time, and more expendable income to still participate in various aspects of the game. I mean, if someone were to pvp a lot, but didn't have much of a revenue stream otherwise, PLEX would allow them to continue purchasing player made ships/modules and getting them destroyed (or destroying someone elses). So, perhaps there are multiple winners in the PLEX scenario
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
So many posts and still confused.
Are you saying that there already was system in which players traded ingame currency for real money, and was this approved ? EDIT: nwm I read the answer and it is yes
If that is the case, I really don't see what the problem is .. or rather why the problem gets worse with an item shop - I hate any kind of virtual goods for money transactions, whether it be gold farmers or companies.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
This is total BS. Whether you buy PLEX with RL cash or ISK the money for that PLEX was paid to CCP at some point by some player. They are making the exact same income from subs with or without PLEX. PLEX just allows players to trade game time on the in game market like any other commodity. It actually was a brilliant strategy on CCP's part as it doesn't really add anything to the game that wasn't already there (subscription game time) and it put the third party ISK farmers/sellers pretty much out of business overnight.
As for the OPs question... Even is you made yourself incredibly wealthy by selling plex you still can't use anything you don't have the skills for. Skills take time to gain so everyone is still pretty much on an even footing.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
Hm...depends a lot on who and where you are grinding.
I think you could make 30-100M per hour by the most basic grinding(running missions and anomaly hunting). There are many, many ways how to earn ISK in EVE.
^^ What Bren Said
Mess with the best, Die like the rest
Actually you can use that wealth to buy a veteran character, which is also supported and endorsed by CCP. There are some very very veteran characters available for sale right now.
PLEX is pay2win by almost every definition, other than the very limited definition of "buying EXCLUSIVE items from cash shop."
Not sure why some go through such contortions to say it isn't pay2win, just because it was implemented in a way that didn't cause a massive revolt of veterans. They didn't revolt because the particular implementation of this pay2win model allows veterans to essentially play for free or fund alt accounts, basically with the money the newer players are pumping into the game for their pay2win stuff...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
There is no other definition.
Calling things they are not just because you consider them to be certain way won't make you a point nor make you right.
LOL, a newish player has absolutely no chance of making that kind of money. Maybe a veteran could, but it is the newer players that can pay2win by buying PLEX. The veterans who can grind that kind of ISK are using it to buy this PLEX so they can play for free and fund their alt accounts.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
People think of EvE as they would any other MMO. They believe that the gear makes the character, or in EvE's case, the ship and it''s equipment. Big thing is, you could buy BILLIONS of ISK worth of Plex, sell them off for ISK and it wouldn't do you a stitch of good. You need the skills to use those ships, the more advanced the ship the more skill points required. Also, you need skill points to use the more advanced items you want to equip your ship with.
Sure, you can buy a character on the exchange, but you'll only suffer for it (unless you're already a player and simply don't want to spend the time leveling up another character). Why? Because all that money that you spent will very, VERY quickly end up in a more experienced player's cargo hold. Notice I didn't say older player, but experienced. There are guys who have not been playing since launch who are clever...VERY clever. They don't need billion isk ships and fits or 5 years worth of skill points. This game allows for conmen and women. Couple that with gullible newbs who refuse to listen to advice and who just HAVE to have the best stuff their bought character can fit....well, those new people find themselves podded and broke pretty quick.
So no, it's definately not P2W....at least not yet.
Fine, then we have the answer:
1) EVE is not pay2win if your viewpoint is that pay2win = "Using real life money to buy EXCLUSIVE items from a cash shop"
2) EVE is pay2win if your viewpoint is that pay2win = "Using real life money to buy things that help you ingame, such as ships, fittings, ammo, and even including buying veteran characters"
There, confusion solved. The answer depends on how you define pay2win.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
I see a lot of sales of chars with loads of sp's for plex, is this legal in the game?
-----
The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
Yes, it is legal and endorsed by CCP. A brand spanking new player can buy a 5 year veteran character the day they create their account.
Somehow, many EVE players don't consider that pay2win though. LOL.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Go buy one and meet me in Low Sec, I'll show you how "P2W" you are!
Make sure to buy some extra plexes and put them in your cargo hold...you know, to make it worth my while. 
I tend to subscribe to the second definition, so I guess I would call EVE P2W.
Makes me wonder what all the fuss is about it tbh.
You seem to ignore the huge learning curve EvE has. A new player would get eaten alive, if only by the game's complicated mechanics.
Not to mention that no matter how many skillpoints you have, someone with only a fraction of them could very well blow your ship up.
But you need to play EvE to know that.....
Exactly what do you win by having ISK again, because I'm pretty sure I missed that part.
well, wouldnt you use isk to buy gear etc?
and arnt a lot of EVE players up in arms because CCP might soon be selling gear etc?
You win at making pirates rich!
You also win at having the entire community laugh at you because you were stupid enough to buy a character you didn't know how to play and got yourself all blowed up. The community is great to those that wish to learn, but they have zero tolerance for stupidity.
Now, the fuss in my opinion is really about the type of pay2win model in EVE.. The current pay2win model EVE uses is fairly well integrated into the economy of the game, and there is a financial benefit to veterans with the current pay2win system. Kind of a payola of sorts that keeps them happy: veterans can earn ISK in game and trade it for PLEX which allows them to play for free and/or fund alt accounts. Long-term veterans can earn amazing amounts of ISK.
The new system CCP is introducing would cut veterans out of the equation and would impact the ingame economy as well. The new system would not allow veterans to play for free anymore or fund their alt accounts...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
If this is the case then why do so many apparently care if CCP sells ships etc in their shop?
Why the uproar about P2W if, like you make out, P2W isnt possible in this game by simply buying ships etc.
If skill trumps gear so much in this game why do people care what ships etc CCP sells for RL cash?