PLEX is pay2win by almost every definition, other than the very limited definition of "buying EXCLUSIVE items from cash shop."
There is no other definition.
Calling things they are not just because you consider them to be certain way won't make you a point nor make you right.
Fine, then we have the answer:
1) EVE is not pay2win if your viewpoint is that pay2win = "Using real life money to buy EXCLUSIVE items from a cash shop"
2) EVE is pay2win if your viewpoint is that pay2win = "Using real life money to buy things that help you ingame, such as ships, fittings, ammo, and even including buying veteran characters"
There, confusion solved. The answer depends on how you define pay2win.
I tend to subscribe to the second definition, so I guess I would call EVE P2W.
Makes me wonder what all the fuss is about it tbh.
Now, the fuss in my opinion is really about the type of pay2win model in EVE.. The current pay2win model EVE uses is fairly well integrated into the economy of the game, and there is a financial benefit to veterans with the current pay2win system. Kind of a payola of sorts that keeps them happy: veterans can earn ISK in game and trade it for PLEX which allows them to play for free and/or fund alt accounts. Long-term veterans can earn amazing amounts of ISK.
The new system CCP is introducing would cut veterans out of the equation and would impact the ingame economy as well. The new system would not allow veterans to play for free anymore or fund their alt accounts...
So you are saying that it'snot the notion of P2W that upsets people, but the fear for the economy and the cutting out of the middle man?
Not a flame, it's just the impression I have had for a long while of this game... Just looking for clarity tbh
You guys have traded plexes for ISK for a long time right? Which is a form of buying in game currency for RL money right?
This ISK can then be used to buy skills and gear?
I only ask beause of the recent outrage over 'P2W'... it seems little has actually changed if you look at the core practise.
Can someone explain plz?
The issue with the winers is not so much the there "might" be the addition of ships, ammo, etc but the fact that adding those items would take away from the sandbox. Were as now players create the ships, should CCP add ships to their market it will affect the in game market and have a ripple affect, basically making the sandbox smaller. However this is all based off a "What if Pro/Cons" internal letter that in no way points to what will happen.
To add to this, some of these people are leaving EVE to play PO, the funny part is that a there are those who are leaving because of the cash shop however the game they are leaving EVE for "will" also be getting a cash shop in the future. Go figure, this is just a typical day in EVE, it wouldn't be an official content release or expansion if there wasn't a mass Jita protest, people saying CCP hates them, etc, etc.
As for me I draw the line the when said sand box is reduced, so until they actually add combat ships (I don't mind if they add shuttles) I will continue to give CCP my money.
But to answer your questions, yes it is current play two win right now. If you have enough cash you can by PLEX and sell it in game, then buy a player made ship (thus support the sand box), fit it up will all the bells and whistles undock and have it blown up. So if you ignore the sandbox and only follow the money nothing changes, however there is a sandbox. Therefore selling ships in NEX will affect the sandbox in a negative way and so people get all in a upset of a possible future and I wont lie it will eventually happen but not for a long time and right now... well right now I am having fun and that is all that matters to me. ^_^
Because flying a Minmatar ship is like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair while firing an Uzi.
Hm...depends a lot on who and where you are grinding.
I think you could make 30-100M per hour by the most basic grinding(running missions and anomaly hunting). There are many, many ways how to earn ISK in EVE.
Not for someone who has been subbed for less than a year.
Not a flame, it's just the impression I have had for a long while of this game... Just looking for clarity tbh
You guys have traded plexes for ISK for a long time right? Which is a form of buying in game currency for RL money right?
This ISK can then be used to buy skills and gear?
I only ask beause of the recent outrage over 'P2W'... it seems little has actually changed if you look at the core practise.
Can someone explain plz?
The issue with the winers is not so much the there "might" be the addition of ships, ammo, etc but the fact that adding those items would take away from the sandbox. Were as now players create the ships, should CCP add ships to their market it will affect the in game market and have a ripple affect, basically making the sandbox smaller. However this is all based off a "What if Pro/Cons" internal letter that in no way points to what will happen.
To add to this, some of these people are leaving EVE to play PO, the funny part is that a there are those who are leaving because of the cash shop however the game they are leaving EVE for "will" also be getting a cash shop in the future. Go figure, this is just a typical day in EVE, it wouldn't be an official content release or expansion if there wasn't a mass Jita protest, people saying CCP hates them, etc, etc.
As for me I draw the line the when said sand box is reduced, so until they actually add combat ships (I don't mind if they add shuttles) I will continue to give CCP my money.
But to answer your questions, yes it is current play two win right now. If you have enough cash you can by PLEX and sell it in game, then buy a player made ship (thus support the sand box), fit it up will all the bells and whistles undock and have it blown up. So if you ignore the sandbox and only follow the money nothing changes, however there is a sandbox. Therefore selling ships in NEX will affect the sandbox in a negative way and so people get all in a upset of a possible future and I wont lie it will eventually happen but not for a long time and right now... well right now I am having fun and that is all that matters to me. ^_^
Show me the proof where it says PO is putting in a cash shop.
Hm...depends a lot on who and where you are grinding.
I think you could make 30-100M per hour by the most basic grinding(running missions and anomaly hunting). There are many, many ways how to earn ISK in EVE.
Not for someone who has been subbed for less than a year.
Quickest way to make money in EvE? Lie, cheat and steal. Just don't hack.
Originally posted by gainesvilleg There, confusion solved. The answer depends on how you define pay2win.
Definition =/= use
I know some basic things are hard to grasp but they are mandatory to understand if you want to talk to other people and not to look like an imbecile because no one will have an idea what you talk about...
Yes of course PLEX is a form of pay2win, unless you restrict the definition of pay2win as only the very limited case of buying EXCLUSIVE items in a cash shop. But most gamers don't have that very very narrow view of pay2win, and most define pay2win as the purchasing with real life money things that benefit you ingame. For example gold buying is almost universally viewed as a form of pay2win which is why it is a bannable offense in most MMOs.
As an example in EVE, CCP actually endorses the purchases of PLEX, which can be used to obtain ISK, which can be used to obtain ships, fittings, ammo, even veteran characters.
As a very very specific example in EVE, a brand new player who just created an account can purchase PLEX in enough quantities to afford the purchase of a veteran character and all his items. Essentially becoming an instant 5+ year veteran if they are willing to spend enough real life dollars. Those that don't consider that an example pay2win are just contorting the definition of it...
That's more like paying to lose. A newbie would have no idea how to effectively use that character/ships/equipment. Even after studying it. He would lose his nice ships, become poor. would end up in a rookie frigate, and have to grind L1's just to be able to afford a regular frig, then cruiser, and have to work his way back up. His experience and skill would be very low and he would be a tool that just feeds the economy rather then 'winning' with all the losses he would be suffering.
If he buys more plex to sell with real money, he effectivaly just gets in nice ships to be cannon fodder for vets. There is no winning for him. Not until he finds a corp, or friends to teach him the ropes. PVP is almost never 1v1. it's blob warfare. It's praying on the weak. And he will be easily prayed upon.
PLEX is pay2win by almost every definition, other than the very limited definition of "buying EXCLUSIVE items from cash shop."
There is no other definition.
Calling things they are not just because you consider them to be certain way won't make you a point nor make you right.
Fine, then we have the answer:
1) EVE is not pay2win if your viewpoint is that pay2win = "Using real life money to buy EXCLUSIVE items from a cash shop"
2) EVE is pay2win if your viewpoint is that pay2win = "Using real life money to buy things that help you ingame, such as ships, fittings, ammo, and even including buying veteran characters"
There, confusion solved. The answer depends on how you define pay2win.
I tend to subscribe to the second definition, so I guess I would call EVE P2W.
Makes me wonder what all the fuss is about it tbh.
Exactly what do you win by having ISK again, because I'm pretty sure I missed that part.
well, wouldnt you use isk to buy gear etc?
and arnt a lot of EVE players up in arms because CCP might soon be selling gear etc?
Well if you're into PVE you don't need the isk, and if you're new you don't have anything to spend it on anyway.
If you're into PVP all the things you buy are going to be destroyed, and this will leave you with the choice of grinding or using plex.
Plex means people don't have to grind to PVP, but it doesn't help them win anything. It means that instead of going back to empire, or cancelling their account, when they are broke, they can use plex. They can stay in the fight, but they aren't going to win anything.
People are mad because many play the game on very slim margins playing the player driven economy. A cash shop for the items they are currently making would be bad for many PVE players. And the PVP crowd just hates the idea on principle, so CCP is getting from both sides ATM.
Players that aren't invested in the player driven economy, or aren't hardcore PVP'ers, are like WTF's going on.
I see a lot of sales of chars with loads of sp's for plex, is this legal in the game?
Yes, it is legal and endorsed by CCP. A brand spanking new player can buy a 5 year veteran character the day they create their account.
Somehow, many EVE players don't consider that pay2win though. LOL.
You seem to ignore the huge learning curve EvE has. A new player would get eaten alive, if only by the game's complicated mechanics.
Not to mention that no matter how many skillpoints you have, someone with only a fraction of them could very well blow your ship up.
But you need to play EvE to know that.....
If this is the case then why do so many apparently care if CCP sells ships etc in their shop?
Why the uproar about P2W if, like you make out, P2W isnt possible in this game by simply buying ships etc.
If skill trumps gear so much in this game why do people care what ships etc CCP sells for RL cash?
Well I guess their complaint of this is less to do with p2w and more about the possability of destroying the economy.
But regarding buying a 5 year char not being p2w, while it's true that a new player buying that char will not jump stright in and wipe out another 5 year vet (who played their char) even with less isk, but is it not true I have a major advantage over someone else starting around the same time as me or even not so close a time? Also would my potential to advance along the 'learning curve' in a far, far shorter time span be a 'buyable' commodity?
----- The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
Originally posted by Nerf09 Not for someone who has been subbed for less than a year.
You can run L4 mission within 2 weeks of play. I guess you will make around 15M ISK or so but your income will raise rapidly each week with new skills.
It's more complicated than just 'grinding'...unless what you really want to do is to grind.
Originally posted by vesavius If this is the case then why do so many apparently care if CCP sells ships etc in their shop? Why the uproar about P2W if, like you make out, P2W isnt possible in this game by simply buying ships etc. If skill trumps gear so much in this game why do people care what ships etc CCP sells for RL cash?
Everything in eve (pretty much) is made by player effort, the exception being plex. Which can be essentially turned in to isk. This essentially just means someone has more isk to buy something with.
The problem is, that allowing people to spontaniously buy things that aren't just isk generation bypasses what makes eve great, the economy.
Suddenly, you're not buying from other players. You're not rewarding their hard work. You're removing an entire link from the production chain. Suddenly I don't need to buy that ship from another player, I can just buy it from CCP.
Plex didn't really do that, because it could only really be sold on the market for isk. Meaning you still have to go buy the thing that you want to get from the other players.
Removing that step is well.... fucking lame. No one really cares if someone wants to buy a bunch of plex and sell them on the market, it means more game time for those that can't afford it, and more isk for those that bought the plex with real money. But being able to by a faction battleship for a few dollars? Suddenly the effort required by someone to get the damn thing is gone.
Plex's introduction didn't hurt that production/supply chain, it mere changed how isk moved about a bit. A non-vanity item story would.
That's not ok, and that's why most of the eve players see it as different.
But regarding buying a 5 year char not being p2w, while it's true that a new player buying that char will not jump stright in and wipe out another 5 year vet (who played their char) even with less isk, but is it not true I have a major advantage over someone else starting around the same time as me or even not so close a time? Also would my potential to advance along the 'learning curve' in a far, far shorter time span be a 'buyable' commodity?
The only times I have ever seen this done successfully, was when an alliance has an outstanding pilot that obviously well ahead of the learning curve, is well liked, and logged in a lot. The alliance will help the player with a new toon and put the player in a role to use it.
But this is very rare.
You have to understand how important reputation is in this game. You have to know what ships to fly, and how to fit them. What you think, and what may even be a good idea, means almost nothing. There is simply a certain way you are supposed to go about things, and a lot you need to know. If you don’t have this knowledge, you are going to take a pretty hard beating by the other pilots, and if you have a high skill point character and don’t have a clue about these thing…..it’s not going to be a pretty picture.
It’s very easy to talk about paying to win in EVE on a forum full of people playing other games, trying to actually do it is another matter......just my 2 cents.
A lot of people are not complaining about P2W (while a lot are)
Alot fo people dont want magical items to be created in the there sandbox that are not created by playing the game.
I am well aware that with RL money you can buy a character then 30 plex and do well in the game. But the character was created by playing in game and the isk for the plex was made in game so ther eis nothing being created. But i could care less about that....i personally left eve b/c they are shitting in my sandbox and i dont like it.
I also believe that corps, skills and knowedge by playing the game is WAY more important then ISK
Playing: PO, EVE Waiting for: WoD Favourite MMOs: VG, EVE, FE and DDO Any person who expresses rage and loathing for an MMO is preposterous. He or she is like a person who has put on full armor and attacked a hot fudge sundae.
it is basically pay to win. Someone who buys 30 plex and sells them will have an ingame advatage over other who don't.
Best implants = fast skill learning, ect. Always able to buy faction ammo, faction upgrades, no need to run missions for isk.
This is true, but consider that PLEX costs more than the monthly subscription fee; one for $19, six for $104 ($17 each), etc. And regardless of what ships you buy, you would still be dependent on skills which train in real-time. So while it is theoretically possible to "pay to win" in EVE, it's hardly as simple as just buying an experience boost and then grinding 10 levels in an hour, or buying a big-ass weapon that beats everyone in PVP.
The difference between plex and p2w for us is essentially that plex literally helps everyone. Sure, they might have more isk, but they then have to use that isk and give it to other players. It's currency. You're not paying to win, you're paying to make isk to spend on more fancy things..... which other players made. So you're paying to give other players isk
The p2w worry is that instead of paying for isk... you'll be paying for a fancy weird pos.... or a super-duper-cap ship.... or many other things. Completely removing everyone else from the system.
The player with more isk has a greater chance of winning does he or she not?
ISK is just a factor, it does not determine your chance to win, thus no P2W.
There are no better ships or better equipment. It all depends on task you want to do. Is new Maserati better than Mini-Cooper? Same goes for EVE ships and equipment.
ok, I see... so skills and gear have no impact on a battle in this game and upgrading via ISK purchases dosent make you 'better'?
Not really. The one rule in EVE that you do not fly anything that you cannot afford to lose. The top items are marginally better than the relatively cheap mass-produced alternatives. The expensive rare drops are mainly used for PvE side of the game, where whole purpose is to generate ISK. You have to calculate ROI when making such purchases.
The key thing with Plexes is that no new ISK is introduced to the system. ISK is just redistributed, which is actually beneficial to the economy.
Yes, it helps newbies when they can get an infusion to help with early aspects of the game. Veterans mainly benefits from having "free" subscription for their multiple accounts. If you play this game any length of time, you will notice that the price of Plex is really not significant.
Aren't you (and probably many other EVE players) lulling yourself into something here? In other games, where private persons do these kinds of transactions, there is an outcry for developers "to do something!". It's called RMT (Real Money Traders). They too do not generate any "new" currency - they farm and use pve to give you the opertunity to buy their "warez". Culturally, and historically, such transactions were severaly frowned upon in the MMO spheres. May I say even Taboo? In most games (other than EVE of course), RMT is still taboo. Yet when the developers themselves open up for it, its ok. How nice!
And actually I mean it. It's nice that they made it possible for players with less time and inclination to pursue mining etc with means to get rich the easy way - and doing so without screwing the game over in the process. They found their balance. However, saying that isk doesnt really equal P2W is one thing. To say buying ISK hardly has any impact is at best a fumbling attempt to cover up the facts. Time is money - in EVE you can take that litteraly (plex = isk). Having ISK saves you time. Makes you more effective than not having any. EVE is called "wallstreet in space". How can that be so if ISK is such a small matter?
I just had to reply to the above poster, because he/she seems to forget how controversial RMT really is in the gaming world. Being in EVE where such a thing is quite natural now, I can understand that. However, dont shove the dirt under the carpet please.
The difference between plex and p2w for us is essentially that plex literally helps everyone. Sure, they might have more isk, but they then have to use that isk and give it to other players. It's currency. You're not paying to win, you're paying to make isk to spend on more fancy things..... which other players made. So you're paying to give other players isk
The p2w worry is that instead of paying for isk... you'll be paying for a fancy weird pos.... or a super-duper-cap ship.... or many other things. Completely removing everyone else from the system.
So this monocle or designer jeans that everybody's talking about: It is ok to sell them in the cash shop for 60 USD if it somehow involves a player factory?
It takes about 6 months to "Max" out a particular skill set for a type of ship. Once that is accomplished there is no difference between a "new" player and a million year vet player outside of personal skill and experience(IE not game skills). With just a little bit of in game skill that same player could completely max out their character and ships in the best equipment in game.
The only thing that plex allows is for the casual gamer to pay for the subscription costs of the hardcore player and then levels the playing field equipment wise between the two types of players. A hardcore vet players gets about 0% advantage to selling plex.
In a true P2W model any player - hardcore or casual - vet or newb would gain large advantages by using RL money to buy ingame money or items. In the Eve model the only person who really benefits from selling plex using RL money is the new player or the casual player. Even a casual vet though has little reason to sell plex unless they suck at pvp and really like to do a lot of it. In that case more power to them as that keeps the ingame economy flowing by having large amounts of items destroyed.
Eve is the only game I know of that really did the RL cash conversion to in game currency just right. By doing what they did they absolutely destroyed any chance of gold sellers from swamping their game. There is no profit and tons of risk.
The difference between plex and p2w for us is essentially that plex literally helps everyone. Sure, they might have more isk, but they then have to use that isk and give it to other players. It's currency. You're not paying to win, you're paying to make isk to spend on more fancy things..... which other players made. So you're paying to give other players isk
The p2w worry is that instead of paying for isk... you'll be paying for a fancy weird pos.... or a super-duper-cap ship.... or many other things. Completely removing everyone else from the system.
So this monocle or designer jeans that everybody's talking about: It is ok to sell them in the cash shop for 60 USD if it somehow involves a player factory?
Personally dude? If someone wants to pay 60 dollars for a thing that edits your picture slightly, that person is either dumb, or has waay to much isk, or cares about how their char looks way too much. That's really not what eve is about. That's why personally I dont' care about vanity items, they literally harm nothing as far as game mechanics. And, while a lot of eve players are currently bitching about it, it's not the issue for me, or a lot of the protesters.
I think of the vanity stuffs more like plex, and don't really care about them. They serve the same thing. No game benefit except isk changing hands for no real reason.
Buying something other than isk though harms the economy in a different way. Some people in eve spend their entire lives simply creating things. It's a crafters paradice. They can dominate entire parts of economies. If I wanted to dominate a market on an item and try to control prices, I could do that. Fly to a remote location, buy up everything to a certain price and set it.
If someone has extra isk from plex, meh. There are other ways to get isk. Personally, I can get a plex in less than a day if I want one. But what if... lets say I control the market on a particular ship. What if someone could just skip the economy all together?
If eve had a god, it's the total production process. From creating an item (or aquiring it somehow), to destorying the item when killing a ship. When a game revolves around a god (that production/economic process), you don't make a way to bipass god.
We care about the economy and how it influences how our eve "jobs". We worked hard in some cases to get to where we are. What we're not worried about it people having a little bit extra isk to spend.
Plex (And realistically even the current vanity items) just don't really matter when it comes to that production process. It doesn't change the economic competition of the game. Not to a significant degree anyways. But if someone could buy a bunch of lets say... faction ammo? And I happen to be competing in that market? They're skipping me, and everyone else competing in that market.
Originally posted by Mimzel Aren't you (and probably many other EVE players) lulling yourself into something here? In other games, where private persons do these kinds of transactions, there is an outcry for developers "to do something!". It's called RMT (Real Money Traders). They too do not generate any "new" currency - they farm and use pve to give you the opertunity to buy their "warez". Culturally, and historically, such transactions were severaly frowned upon in the MMO spheres. May I say even Taboo? In most games (other than EVE of course), RMT is still taboo. Yet when the developers themselves open up for it, its ok. How nice! And actually I mean it. It's nice that they made it possible for players with less time and inclination to pursue mining etc with means to get rich the easy way - and doing so without screwing the game over in the process. They found their balance. However, saying that isk doesnt really equal P2W is one thing. To say buying ISK hardly has any impact is at best a fumbling attempt to cover up the facts. Time is money - in EVE you can take that litteraly (plex = isk). Having ISK saves you time. Makes you more effective than not having any. EVE is called "wallstreet in space". How can that be so if ISK is such a small matter? I just had to reply to the above poster, because he/she seems to forget how controversial RMT really is in the gaming world. Being in EVE where such a thing is quite natural now, I can understand that. However, dont shove the dirt under the carpet please.
Hrm...
I do not think that there is a single line that is reasonably supported or I would even agree with...
1) Real issue with RMT are bots. The ability to generate more resources than economy would do under regular conditions. This creates inflation trends.
2) Second issue with RMT is that it happens outside of game economy, which hurts the game.
Neither is the case of PLEX system and EVE Online.
RMT is based on selling virtual goods for real currency. PLEX system on the other hand is the exact opposite - selling real goods for virtual currency.
PLEX system isn't in any way comparable to RMT.
Aurum and cash shop will change a lot about how PLEX system interacts with in game economy and I do not find a term to describe it as I think it is very unique phenomenon...
The difference between plex and p2w for us is essentially that plex literally helps everyone. Sure, they might have more isk, but they then have to use that isk and give it to other players. It's currency. You're not paying to win, you're paying to make isk to spend on more fancy things..... which other players made. So you're paying to give other players isk
The p2w worry is that instead of paying for isk... you'll be paying for a fancy weird pos.... or a super-duper-cap ship.... or many other things. Completely removing everyone else from the system.
I wonder if you Pay2Win hater folks will have a little sympathy now for those who also hate Grind2Win as equally as they hate Pay2Win. I don't play Eve or WOW cause they are both Grind2Win games, in fact I don't play anything at all.
IT IS POSSIBLE to make a fun game with progression that isn't Grind2Win or Pay2Win, just use a little damn imagination.
Not a flame, it's just the impression I have had for a long while of this game... Just looking for clarity tbh
You guys have traded plexes for ISK for a long time right? Which is a form of buying in game currency for RL money right?
This ISK can then be used to buy skills and gear?
I only ask beause of the recent outrage over 'P2W'... it seems little has actually changed if you look at the core practise.
Can someone explain plz?
The issue with the winers is not so much the there "might" be the addition of ships, ammo, etc but the fact that adding those items would take away from the sandbox. Were as now players create the ships, should CCP add ships to their market it will affect the in game market and have a ripple affect, basically making the sandbox smaller. However this is all based off a "What if Pro/Cons" internal letter that in no way points to what will happen.
To add to this, some of these people are leaving EVE to play PO, the funny part is that a there are those who are leaving because of the cash shop however the game they are leaving EVE for "will" also be getting a cash shop in the future. Go figure, this is just a typical day in EVE, it wouldn't be an official content release or expansion if there wasn't a mass Jita protest, people saying CCP hates them, etc, etc.
As for me I draw the line the when said sand box is reduced, so until they actually add combat ships (I don't mind if they add shuttles) I will continue to give CCP my money.
But to answer your questions, yes it is current play two win right now. If you have enough cash you can by PLEX and sell it in game, then buy a player made ship (thus support the sand box), fit it up will all the bells and whistles undock and have it blown up. So if you ignore the sandbox and only follow the money nothing changes, however there is a sandbox. Therefore selling ships in NEX will affect the sandbox in a negative way and so people get all in a upset of a possible future and I wont lie it will eventually happen but not for a long time and right now... well right now I am having fun and that is all that matters to me. ^_^
Show me the proof where it says PO is putting in a cash shop.
Or if you're too lazy (note the bolding is from them not me just straight copy and paste):
"As mentioned in the first part of this blog, this will be a microtransaction feature: for a small fee you’ll be able to purchase packages of multiple paintjob tokens that you can use to finalize colors on your robot. The exact pricing is yet to be announced, but since robots are pretty short-lived and packing one will also make it revert to its default color (just like paint decay), it probably won’t be too heavy on your wallets. (And refreshing an old paintjob with the same color will be probably for free.)"
"The current list of things you will be able to purchase with EC includes mission ammo, Niani modules, possibly some prototypes, and *drumroll* ...robot paint. (And sorry to burst your bubble right away, but the sooner you know the better: paintjobs will be tied into microtransactions for a small fee, because we're greedy capitalist pigdogs - details about paintjobs will come in part 2 of this post.)"
Really is no secret and it's not hard to find just take two minutes and click the most recent blogs. Anyways like I said I respect that they are clear about what they plan.
Because flying a Minmatar ship is like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair while firing an Uzi.
Comments
So you are saying that it'snot the notion of P2W that upsets people, but the fear for the economy and the cutting out of the middle man?
The issue with the winers is not so much the there "might" be the addition of ships, ammo, etc but the fact that adding those items would take away from the sandbox. Were as now players create the ships, should CCP add ships to their market it will affect the in game market and have a ripple affect, basically making the sandbox smaller. However this is all based off a "What if Pro/Cons" internal letter that in no way points to what will happen.
To add to this, some of these people are leaving EVE to play PO, the funny part is that a there are those who are leaving because of the cash shop however the game they are leaving EVE for "will" also be getting a cash shop in the future. Go figure, this is just a typical day in EVE, it wouldn't be an official content release or expansion if there wasn't a mass Jita protest, people saying CCP hates them, etc, etc.
As for me I draw the line the when said sand box is reduced, so until they actually add combat ships (I don't mind if they add shuttles) I will continue to give CCP my money.
But to answer your questions, yes it is current play two win right now. If you have enough cash you can by PLEX and sell it in game, then buy a player made ship (thus support the sand box), fit it up will all the bells and whistles undock and have it blown up. So if you ignore the sandbox and only follow the money nothing changes, however there is a sandbox. Therefore selling ships in NEX will affect the sandbox in a negative way and so people get all in a upset of a possible future and I wont lie it will eventually happen but not for a long time and right now... well right now I am having fun and that is all that matters to me. ^_^
Because flying a Minmatar ship is like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair while firing an Uzi.
Yep, you haven't played the game at all, or if you have it wasn't very long. You simply do not get how the game works. =P
Not for someone who has been subbed for less than a year.
Show me the proof where it says PO is putting in a cash shop.
Quickest way to make money in EvE? Lie, cheat and steal. Just don't hack.
Definition =/= use
I know some basic things are hard to grasp but they are mandatory to understand if you want to talk to other people and not to look like an imbecile because no one will have an idea what you talk about...
That's more like paying to lose. A newbie would have no idea how to effectively use that character/ships/equipment. Even after studying it. He would lose his nice ships, become poor. would end up in a rookie frigate, and have to grind L1's just to be able to afford a regular frig, then cruiser, and have to work his way back up. His experience and skill would be very low and he would be a tool that just feeds the economy rather then 'winning' with all the losses he would be suffering.
If he buys more plex to sell with real money, he effectivaly just gets in nice ships to be cannon fodder for vets. There is no winning for him. Not until he finds a corp, or friends to teach him the ropes. PVP is almost never 1v1. it's blob warfare. It's praying on the weak. And he will be easily prayed upon.
Well if you're into PVE you don't need the isk, and if you're new you don't have anything to spend it on anyway.
If you're into PVP all the things you buy are going to be destroyed, and this will leave you with the choice of grinding or using plex.
Plex means people don't have to grind to PVP, but it doesn't help them win anything. It means that instead of going back to empire, or cancelling their account, when they are broke, they can use plex. They can stay in the fight, but they aren't going to win anything.
People are mad because many play the game on very slim margins playing the player driven economy. A cash shop for the items they are currently making would be bad for many PVE players. And the PVP crowd just hates the idea on principle, so CCP is getting from both sides ATM.
Players that aren't invested in the player driven economy, or aren't hardcore PVP'ers, are like WTF's going on.
Well I guess their complaint of this is less to do with p2w and more about the possability of destroying the economy.
But regarding buying a 5 year char not being p2w, while it's true that a new player buying that char will not jump stright in and wipe out another 5 year vet (who played their char) even with less isk, but is it not true I have a major advantage over someone else starting around the same time as me or even not so close a time? Also would my potential to advance along the 'learning curve' in a far, far shorter time span be a 'buyable' commodity?
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The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
You can run L4 mission within 2 weeks of play. I guess you will make around 15M ISK or so but your income will raise rapidly each week with new skills.
It's more complicated than just 'grinding'...unless what you really want to do is to grind.
Who says you need to make sense to be upset?
How this is different the plex 101.
Everything in eve (pretty much) is made by player effort, the exception being plex. Which can be essentially turned in to isk. This essentially just means someone has more isk to buy something with.
The problem is, that allowing people to spontaniously buy things that aren't just isk generation bypasses what makes eve great, the economy.
Suddenly, you're not buying from other players. You're not rewarding their hard work. You're removing an entire link from the production chain. Suddenly I don't need to buy that ship from another player, I can just buy it from CCP.
Plex didn't really do that, because it could only really be sold on the market for isk. Meaning you still have to go buy the thing that you want to get from the other players.
Removing that step is well.... fucking lame. No one really cares if someone wants to buy a bunch of plex and sell them on the market, it means more game time for those that can't afford it, and more isk for those that bought the plex with real money. But being able to by a faction battleship for a few dollars? Suddenly the effort required by someone to get the damn thing is gone.
Plex's introduction didn't hurt that production/supply chain, it mere changed how isk moved about a bit. A non-vanity item story would.
That's not ok, and that's why most of the eve players see it as different.
The only times I have ever seen this done successfully, was when an alliance has an outstanding pilot that obviously well ahead of the learning curve, is well liked, and logged in a lot. The alliance will help the player with a new toon and put the player in a role to use it.
But this is very rare.
You have to understand how important reputation is in this game. You have to know what ships to fly, and how to fit them. What you think, and what may even be a good idea, means almost nothing. There is simply a certain way you are supposed to go about things, and a lot you need to know. If you don’t have this knowledge, you are going to take a pretty hard beating by the other pilots, and if you have a high skill point character and don’t have a clue about these thing…..it’s not going to be a pretty picture.
It’s very easy to talk about paying to win in EVE on a forum full of people playing other games, trying to actually do it is another matter......just my 2 cents.
A lot of people are not complaining about P2W (while a lot are)
Alot fo people dont want magical items to be created in the there sandbox that are not created by playing the game.
I am well aware that with RL money you can buy a character then 30 plex and do well in the game. But the character was created by playing in game and the isk for the plex was made in game so ther eis nothing being created. But i could care less about that....i personally left eve b/c they are shitting in my sandbox and i dont like it.
I also believe that corps, skills and knowedge by playing the game is WAY more important then ISK
Playing: PO, EVE
Waiting for: WoD
Favourite MMOs: VG, EVE, FE and DDO
Any person who expresses rage and loathing for an MMO is preposterous. He or she is like a person who has put on full armor and attacked a hot fudge sundae.
This is true, but consider that PLEX costs more than the monthly subscription fee; one for $19, six for $104 ($17 each), etc. And regardless of what ships you buy, you would still be dependent on skills which train in real-time. So while it is theoretically possible to "pay to win" in EVE, it's hardly as simple as just buying an experience boost and then grinding 10 levels in an hour, or buying a big-ass weapon that beats everyone in PVP.
The difference between plex and p2w for us is essentially that plex literally helps everyone. Sure, they might have more isk, but they then have to use that isk and give it to other players. It's currency. You're not paying to win, you're paying to make isk to spend on more fancy things..... which other players made. So you're paying to give other players isk
The p2w worry is that instead of paying for isk... you'll be paying for a fancy weird pos.... or a super-duper-cap ship.... or many other things. Completely removing everyone else from the system.
Aren't you (and probably many other EVE players) lulling yourself into something here? In other games, where private persons do these kinds of transactions, there is an outcry for developers "to do something!". It's called RMT (Real Money Traders). They too do not generate any "new" currency - they farm and use pve to give you the opertunity to buy their "warez". Culturally, and historically, such transactions were severaly frowned upon in the MMO spheres. May I say even Taboo? In most games (other than EVE of course), RMT is still taboo. Yet when the developers themselves open up for it, its ok. How nice!
And actually I mean it. It's nice that they made it possible for players with less time and inclination to pursue mining etc with means to get rich the easy way - and doing so without screwing the game over in the process. They found their balance. However, saying that isk doesnt really equal P2W is one thing. To say buying ISK hardly has any impact is at best a fumbling attempt to cover up the facts. Time is money - in EVE you can take that litteraly (plex = isk). Having ISK saves you time. Makes you more effective than not having any. EVE is called "wallstreet in space". How can that be so if ISK is such a small matter?
I just had to reply to the above poster, because he/she seems to forget how controversial RMT really is in the gaming world. Being in EVE where such a thing is quite natural now, I can understand that. However, dont shove the dirt under the carpet please.
So this monocle or designer jeans that everybody's talking about: It is ok to sell them in the cash shop for 60 USD if it somehow involves a player factory?
It takes about 6 months to "Max" out a particular skill set for a type of ship. Once that is accomplished there is no difference between a "new" player and a million year vet player outside of personal skill and experience(IE not game skills). With just a little bit of in game skill that same player could completely max out their character and ships in the best equipment in game.
The only thing that plex allows is for the casual gamer to pay for the subscription costs of the hardcore player and then levels the playing field equipment wise between the two types of players. A hardcore vet players gets about 0% advantage to selling plex.
In a true P2W model any player - hardcore or casual - vet or newb would gain large advantages by using RL money to buy ingame money or items. In the Eve model the only person who really benefits from selling plex using RL money is the new player or the casual player. Even a casual vet though has little reason to sell plex unless they suck at pvp and really like to do a lot of it. In that case more power to them as that keeps the ingame economy flowing by having large amounts of items destroyed.
Eve is the only game I know of that really did the RL cash conversion to in game currency just right. By doing what they did they absolutely destroyed any chance of gold sellers from swamping their game. There is no profit and tons of risk.
Personally dude? If someone wants to pay 60 dollars for a thing that edits your picture slightly, that person is either dumb, or has waay to much isk, or cares about how their char looks way too much. That's really not what eve is about. That's why personally I dont' care about vanity items, they literally harm nothing as far as game mechanics. And, while a lot of eve players are currently bitching about it, it's not the issue for me, or a lot of the protesters.
I think of the vanity stuffs more like plex, and don't really care about them. They serve the same thing. No game benefit except isk changing hands for no real reason.
Buying something other than isk though harms the economy in a different way. Some people in eve spend their entire lives simply creating things. It's a crafters paradice. They can dominate entire parts of economies. If I wanted to dominate a market on an item and try to control prices, I could do that. Fly to a remote location, buy up everything to a certain price and set it.
If someone has extra isk from plex, meh. There are other ways to get isk. Personally, I can get a plex in less than a day if I want one. But what if... lets say I control the market on a particular ship. What if someone could just skip the economy all together?
If eve had a god, it's the total production process. From creating an item (or aquiring it somehow), to destorying the item when killing a ship. When a game revolves around a god (that production/economic process), you don't make a way to bipass god.
We care about the economy and how it influences how our eve "jobs". We worked hard in some cases to get to where we are. What we're not worried about it people having a little bit extra isk to spend.
Plex (And realistically even the current vanity items) just don't really matter when it comes to that production process. It doesn't change the economic competition of the game. Not to a significant degree anyways. But if someone could buy a bunch of lets say... faction ammo? And I happen to be competing in that market? They're skipping me, and everyone else competing in that market.
That's why I'm mad.
Hrm...
I do not think that there is a single line that is reasonably supported or I would even agree with...
1) Real issue with RMT are bots. The ability to generate more resources than economy would do under regular conditions. This creates inflation trends.
2) Second issue with RMT is that it happens outside of game economy, which hurts the game.
Neither is the case of PLEX system and EVE Online.
RMT is based on selling virtual goods for real currency. PLEX system on the other hand is the exact opposite - selling real goods for virtual currency.
PLEX system isn't in any way comparable to RMT.
Aurum and cash shop will change a lot about how PLEX system interacts with in game economy and I do not find a term to describe it as I think it is very unique phenomenon...
It's the same thing.
Pay2Win
Grind2Win
I hate them both.
I wonder if you Pay2Win hater folks will have a little sympathy now for those who also hate Grind2Win as equally as they hate Pay2Win. I don't play Eve or WOW cause they are both Grind2Win games, in fact I don't play anything at all.
IT IS POSSIBLE to make a fun game with progression that isn't Grind2Win or Pay2Win, just use a little damn imagination.
How about their most recent blog: http://blog.perpetuum-online.com/posts/2011-06-24-this-summer-part-2/
Or if you're too lazy (note the bolding is from them not me just straight copy and paste):
"As mentioned in the first part of this blog, this will be a microtransaction feature: for a small fee you’ll be able to purchase packages of multiple paintjob tokens that you can use to finalize colors on your robot. The exact pricing is yet to be announced, but since robots are pretty short-lived and packing one will also make it revert to its default color (just like paint decay), it probably won’t be too heavy on your wallets. (And refreshing an old paintjob with the same color will be probably for free.)"
Or how about the blog before that: http://blog.perpetuum-online.com/posts/2011-06-06-this-summer-part-1/
Again if you need help locating it:
"The current list of things you will be able to purchase with EC includes mission ammo, Niani modules, possibly some prototypes, and *drumroll* ...robot paint. (And sorry to burst your bubble right away, but the sooner you know the better: paintjobs will be tied into microtransactions for a small fee, because we're greedy capitalist pigdogs - details about paintjobs will come in part 2 of this post.)"
Really is no secret and it's not hard to find just take two minutes and click the most recent blogs. Anyways like I said I respect that they are clear about what they plan.
Because flying a Minmatar ship is like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair while firing an Uzi.