The difference between plex and p2w for us is essentially that plex literally helps everyone. Sure, they might have more isk, but they then have to use that isk and give it to other players. It's currency. You're not paying to win, you're paying to make isk to spend on more fancy things..... which other players made. So you're paying to give other players isk
The p2w worry is that instead of paying for isk... you'll be paying for a fancy weird pos.... or a super-duper-cap ship.... or many other things. Completely removing everyone else from the system.
It's the same thing.
No. One harms the production part of the economy. The other doesn't. One means people aren't buying things from /me/ or the other players. The other doesn't.
As for the OPs question... Even is you made yourself incredibly wealthy by selling plex you still can't use anything you don't have the skills for. Skills take time to gain so everyone is still pretty much on an even footing.
Bren
Actually you can use that wealth to buy a veteran character, which is also supported and endorsed by CCP. There are some very very veteran characters available for sale right now.
PLEX is pay2win by almost every definition, other than the very limited definition of "buying EXCLUSIVE items from cash shop."
Not sure why some go through such contortions to say it isn't pay2win, just because it was implemented in a way that didn't cause a massive revolt of veterans. They didn't revolt because the particular implementation of this pay2win model allows veterans to essentially play for free or fund alt accounts, basically with the money the newer players are pumping into the game for their pay2win stuff...
Yes you can. You can also go out and buy a high level character for any MMO on the market as well. The difference here is it's contained within the game and some chinese gold farmer isn't getting rich off of it, niether is the player that you're buying the character from as the payment is in-game currency. Also if you buy a 50mil SP character it doesn't mean you're instantly going to be super uber either. Not playing to earn those SP will make you totally clueless about how to play your shiney new character. EVE is a VERY complex game and if you think any noob can jump into a 50mil SP character and go pwn anyone who got there by playing and earning those SP you don't know EVE very well. It's pretty obvious who has bought a character and who has earned their character.
I see a lot of sales of chars with loads of sp's for plex, is this legal in the game?
Yes, it is legal and endorsed by CCP. A brand spanking new player can buy a 5 year veteran character the day they create their account.
Somehow, many EVE players don't consider that pay2win though. LOL.
You seem to ignore the huge learning curve EvE has. A new player would get eaten alive, if only by the game's complicated mechanics.
Not to mention that no matter how many skillpoints you have, someone with only a fraction of them could very well blow your ship up.
But you need to play EvE to know that.....
If this is the case then why do so many apparently care if CCP sells ships etc in their shop?
Why the uproar about P2W if, like you make out, P2W isnt possible in this game by simply buying ships etc.
If skill trumps gear so much in this game why do people care what ships etc CCP sells for RL cash?
The thing about all of this is that any type of ship or module sold through the store is simply not part of EvE's economy and industry. Anything you buy now is made by a player, or looted by one. Through the shop, not so much. You can imagine the income of manufacturer's dropping in this way.
And skillpoints......well..........That's the charm of EvE.........older players will find it offensive when a week old guy comes along in his Tengu. It negates everything that EvE is about.
EDIT: Vanity items however, I don't see why not? . Maybe even sell paintjobs for ships through it. Purely cosmetic.
Originally posted by BizkitNL The thing about all of this is that any type of ship or module sold through the store is simply not part of EvE's economy and industry. Anything you buy now is made by a player, or looted by one. Through the shop, not so much. You can imagine the income of manufacturer's dropping in this way. And skillpoints......well..........That's the charm of EvE.........older players will find it offensive when a week old guy comes along in his Tengu. It negates everything that EvE is about. EDIT: Vanity items however, I don't see why not? . Maybe even sell paintjobs for ships through it. Purely cosmetic.
orly? You do not have to sell modules or ships, you can sell BPCs.
It will be perfectly fine economy wise as it is the same as so much popular and recently boosted faction crap. The only change will be in spawning mechanics - instead of drop chance and LP, cash shop.
The difference is minimal.
There is no need to worry about game economy as long as items from cash shops are destroyable, tradeable and manufacturable.
The thing about all of this is that any type of ship or module sold through the store is simply not part of EvE's economy and industry. Anything you buy now is made by a player, or looted by one. Through the shop, not so much. You can imagine the income of manufacturer's dropping in this way.
And skillpoints......well..........That's the charm of EvE.........older players will find it offensive when a week old guy comes along in his Tengu. It negates everything that EvE is about.
EDIT: Vanity items however, I don't see why not? . Maybe even sell paintjobs for ships through it. Purely cosmetic.
orly? You do not have to sell modules or ships, you can sell BPCs.
It will be perfectly fine economy wise as it is the same as so much popular and recently boosted faction crap. The only change will be in spawning mechanics - instead of drop chance and LP, cash shop.
The difference is minimal.
There is no need to worry about game economy as long as items from cash shops are destroyable, tradeable and manufacturable.
Well, that's what they worry about. Or so I hear. I'm still waiting for CCP to show their colours on this matter .
Originally posted by ironfungus Pick one or the other; not both.
If numbers say that people are willing and do pay monthly fee AND pay for MT, why would I do that? If people wants it and I have it, I give it to them. That is what this business is about.
The player with more isk has a greater chance of winning does he or she not?
ISK is just a factor, it does not determine your chance to win, thus no P2W.
There are no better ships or better equipment. It all depends on task you want to do. Is new Maserati better than Mini-Cooper? Same goes for EVE ships and equipment.
ok, I see... so skills and gear have no impact on a battle in this game and upgrading via ISK purchases dosent make you 'better'?
Let me see if I can clarify this for you:
Ok, so let's say I"m a newb and I don't feel like grinding for isk. I do, however, have plenty of extra cash lying around so I go and buy ten extra plex and sell them. Current market values puts that at 4bil isk, which is a lot. However, being a newb I don't really bother researching ship loadouts. I also don't really bother finding out tactics for pvp. After all - I have 4 bill, I payed to win, right?
Wrong.
Let's say you spend a few months to be able to max fit out a battleship and I load it up with the most expensive mods I can find. After all, I'm a useless newb who thinks I can pay to win because I have 4bill isk. That means I win, right?
Nope
So you go out in your battleship that's worth let's say 2bil. So you've got it loaded to the gills and you're thinking you're hot shit. You're thinking, "time to go rape some people in lowsec". On your way to lowsec you run into a pirate gang of intie's. Uh oh, your turrets can't track them, but you're in a loaded out ship that's worth 2 bil....surely a couple of inties worth 25m a pop aren't a threat!
Wrong, again.
So now you've got four pvp intie's who have just mopped up your drones, have you scrammed and webbed and are orbiting you. Your turrets cannot track them because you're in a battleship and they're just too small and too fast. They may be small, but they're each pumping 250 dps (1k dps total)....your tank can only hold 850 for 5m. You can't warp out and you can't kill them.
Congrats. You just wasted 2bil because you thought you could pay to win.
If numbers say that people are willing and do pay monthly fee AND pay for MT, why would I do that? If people wants it and I have it, I give it to them. That is what this business is about.
This "business" is about making good solid games without resorting to underhanded methods of swindling people. People may pay for a game because they really love it, but that doesn't mean they're happy with the price. Or perhaps they just don't know any better, like people who buy computers from Best Buy.
Guild Wars is a high-quality game (one of the only MMORPGs of real quality today) that did just fine with microtransactions, but beared no monthly subscription fee, therefore proving that you can make a FINE game without having both MT and subscriptions simultaneously. EVE may look nice, and they may claim they need the money, but it's nothing but a load of bullshit to cover up their greed. Much like Blizzard, they've become extremely greedy and now, they've paid, or are starting to pay, the price for such greed by watching a rather large amount of people flock away from their game. They deserve no less.
We, the loyal playerbase, like our developers to remain loyal to us and listen to our input. Just look what happened with Final Fantasy XIV! They completely (completely) ignored any and all input from beta and released a jumbled, awful excuse for an MMORPG (or any game for that matter) and now they're paying for it. The developers may be the ones making the games, but they're making the games to please the fans. That's how you make money in this "business". You please us and make the game enjoyable; you can do this without resorting to microtransactions. All that's going on here is pure corporate bullshit, and if I'm the ony player in the world who is standing up to this (which I'm obviously not), then so be it. I'll find something else to do. I refuse to play and support--like much of the ex-EVE community--dishonest and disloyal game-makers.
Yes Eve has had microtransactrions for a long time. Some fans are denying it but the fact is that you can buy PLEX for RL money, which in turn can be converted to IG currency, which in turn you can buy virtually anything. From equipment to a skilled character.
Now if that means P2W is another discussion. I would say it is a big factor, some others say it is not as Eve is all about skillz.
Originally posted by ironfungusThis "business" is about making good solid games without resorting to underhanded methods of swindling people.
Sorry but no. Business is about making money. No more, no less.
If my revenue says going left is the direction to go and forum minority - as you label them 'loyal player base' say I should go right, the decision is simple.
Forums isn't credible source of feedback.
1) It is just talks, not actions. 2) It represents only those who post. 3) It isn't specific and difficult to measure and quantify.
CCP is indeed pleasing their players, just not the vocal minority that is irrationally refusing MT as a part of the game.
Every game change is pleasing and displeasing some group of players. Pleasing all is impossible. CCP isn't greedy or not listening because they have just displeased you. Displeasing players is a natural the part of the game changing process.
Accept it and adapt or leave, in that case there is no need to make a fuss about it, it is all fair.
If numbers say that people are willing and do pay monthly fee AND pay for MT, why would I do that? If people wants it and I have it, I give it to them. That is what this business is about.
This "business" is about making good solid games without resorting to underhanded methods of swindling people. People may pay for a game because they really love it, but that doesn't mean they're happy with the price. Or perhaps they just don't know any better, like people who buy computers from Best Buy.
Guild Wars is a high-quality game (one of the only MMORPGs of real quality today) that did just fine with microtransactions, but beared no monthly subscription fee, therefore proving that you can make a FINE game without having both MT and subscriptions simultaneously. EVE may look nice, and they may claim they need the money, but it's nothing but a load of bullshit to cover up their greed. Much like Blizzard, they've become extremely greedy and now, they've paid, or are starting to pay, the price for such greed by watching a rather large amount of people flock away from their game. They deserve no less.
We, the loyal playerbase, like our developers to remain loyal to us and listen to our input. Just look what happened with Final Fantasy XIV! They completely (completely) ignored any and all input from beta and released a jumbled, awful excuse for an MMORPG (or any game for that matter) and now they're paying for it. The developers may be the ones making the games, but they're making the games to please the fans. That's how you make money in this "business". You please us and make the game enjoyable; you can do this without resorting to microtransactions. All that's going on here is pure corporate bullshit, and if I'm the ony player in the world who is standing up to this (which I'm obviously not), then so be it. I'll find something else to do. I refuse to play and support--like much of the ex-EVE community--dishonest and disloyal game-makers.
Very well put, we need more articulate people like you who tells what many MMORPG fans feel. Far from everyone are accepting this sub+RMT bullshit that is being pushed on us. It is time we as a community make a stand and say NO! We are not accepting this!
This "business" is about making good solid games without resorting to underhanded methods of swindling people.
Sorry but no.
Sorry, but yes. Sir.
Originally posted by Yamota
Very well put, we need more articulate people like you who tells what many MMORPG fans feel. Far from everyone are accepting this sub+RMT bullshit that is being pushed on us. It is time we as a community make a stand and say NO! We are not accepting this!
Why thank you, I was beginning to think I was the only one here with some common sense.
If numbers say that people are willing and do pay monthly fee AND pay for MT, why would I do that? If people wants it and I have it, I give it to them. That is what this business is about.
This "business" is about making good solid games without resorting to underhanded methods of swindling people. People may pay for a game because they really love it, but that doesn't mean they're happy with the price. Or perhaps they just don't know any better, like people who buy computers from Best Buy.
Guild Wars is a high-quality game (one of the only MMORPGs of real quality today) that did just fine with microtransactions, but beared no monthly subscription fee, therefore proving that you can make a FINE game without having both MT and subscriptions simultaneously. EVE may look nice, and they may claim they need the money, but it's nothing but a load of bullshit to cover up their greed. Much like Blizzard, they've become extremely greedy and now, they've paid, or are starting to pay, the price for such greed by watching a rather large amount of people flock away from their game. They deserve no less.
We, the loyal playerbase, like our developers to remain loyal to us and listen to our input. Just look what happened with Final Fantasy XIV! They completely (completely) ignored any and all input from beta and released a jumbled, awful excuse for an MMORPG (or any game for that matter) and now they're paying for it. The developers may be the ones making the games, but they're making the games to please the fans. That's how you make money in this "business". You please us and make the game enjoyable; you can do this without resorting to microtransactions. All that's going on here is pure corporate bullshit, and if I'm the ony player in the world who is standing up to this (which I'm obviously not), then so be it. I'll find something else to do. I refuse to play and support--like much of the ex-EVE community--dishonest and disloyal game-makers.
Gotta agree, and as a former beta tester for FFXIV, I couldn't have said it better myself. I absolutely will not believe this sort of thing to be anything more than greed. I just hope CCP, as well as all game teams eventually learn something.
The difference between plex and p2w for us is essentially that plex literally helps everyone. Sure, they might have more isk, but they then have to use that isk and give it to other players. It's currency. You're not paying to win, you're paying to make isk to spend on more fancy things..... which other players made. So you're paying to give other players isk
The p2w worry is that instead of paying for isk... you'll be paying for a fancy weird pos.... or a super-duper-cap ship.... or many other things. Completely removing everyone else from the system.
It's the same thing.
No. One harms the production part of the economy. The other doesn't. One means people aren't buying things from /me/ or the other players. The other doesn't.
Nowhere near the same thing.
Whenever someone kills an NPC they are getting stuff that doesn't come from "the ecomony".
Yes Eve has had microtransactrions for a long time. Some fans are denying it but the fact is that you can buy PLEX for RL money, which in turn can be converted to IG currency, which in turn you can buy virtually anything. From equipment to a skilled character.
Now if that means P2W is another discussion. I would say it is a big factor, some others say it is not as Eve is all about skillz.
Yeah it's about skillz. Those who have been subscribed longer have the most skill points, one could even say they "payed to win."
I see a lot of sales of chars with loads of sp's for plex, is this legal in the game?
Yes, it is legal and endorsed by CCP. A brand spanking new player can buy a 5 year veteran character the day they create their account.
Somehow, many EVE players don't consider that pay2win though. LOL.
You seem to ignore the huge learning curve EvE has. A new player would get eaten alive, if only by the game's complicated mechanics.
Not to mention that no matter how many skillpoints you have, someone with only a fraction of them could very well blow your ship up.
But you need to play EvE to know that.....
If this is the case then why do so many apparently care if CCP sells ships etc in their shop?
Why the uproar about P2W if, like you make out, P2W isnt possible in this game by simply buying ships etc.
If skill trumps gear so much in this game why do people care what ships etc CCP sells for RL cash?
The thing about all of this is that any type of ship or module sold through the store is simply not part of EvE's economy and industry. Anything you buy now is made by a player, or looted by one. Through the shop, not so much. You can imagine the income of manufacturer's dropping in this way.
And skillpoints......well..........That's the charm of EvE.........older players will find it offensive when a week old guy comes along in his Tengu. It negates everything that EvE is about.
EDIT: Vanity items however, I don't see why not? . Maybe even sell paintjobs for ships through it. Purely cosmetic.
There is no difference between a cash shop and looting an NPC, both items are artificially generated out of thin air.
Not only can you buy every weapon or ship in game with RL money, you can also buy 7 year old characters with max skills if you have enough RL money, all sanctioned on the forums by CCP.
Comments
the reason why PLEX is acceptable to CCP and most of the players is this:
it supports community.
it requires 3 parties to participate:
CCP: offers game time, asks for money
Money-rich Player: offers money, asks for in-game resources (ISK)
Time-rich player: offers in-game resources, asks for game time
so, money-rich player pays both his own sub and sub for time-rich player, and get ISK.
time-rich player provides ISK and other resources (minerals, ships, ammo) and get to "play for free" (it's effectively "play to pay").
CCP gets money.
menage-a-trois!
No. One harms the production part of the economy. The other doesn't. One means people aren't buying things from /me/ or the other players. The other doesn't.
Nowhere near the same thing.
Yes you can. You can also go out and buy a high level character for any MMO on the market as well. The difference here is it's contained within the game and some chinese gold farmer isn't getting rich off of it, niether is the player that you're buying the character from as the payment is in-game currency. Also if you buy a 50mil SP character it doesn't mean you're instantly going to be super uber either. Not playing to earn those SP will make you totally clueless about how to play your shiney new character. EVE is a VERY complex game and if you think any noob can jump into a 50mil SP character and go pwn anyone who got there by playing and earning those SP you don't know EVE very well. It's pretty obvious who has bought a character and who has earned their character.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
Ok for the Nex Store = Clothes and Paint jobs for ships is fine
Not ok for the Nex Store = Ships , Instant Skill training (very very bad idea)
The thing about all of this is that any type of ship or module sold through the store is simply not part of EvE's economy and industry. Anything you buy now is made by a player, or looted by one. Through the shop, not so much. You can imagine the income of manufacturer's dropping in this way.
And skillpoints......well..........That's the charm of EvE.........older players will find it offensive when a week old guy comes along in his Tengu. It negates everything that EvE is about.
EDIT: Vanity items however, I don't see why not?
. Maybe even sell paintjobs for ships through it. Purely cosmetic.
orly? You do not have to sell modules or ships, you can sell BPCs.
It will be perfectly fine economy wise as it is the same as so much popular and recently boosted faction crap. The only change will be in spawning mechanics - instead of drop chance and LP, cash shop.
The difference is minimal.
There is no need to worry about game economy as long as items from cash shops are destroyable, tradeable and manufacturable.
Well, that's what they worry about. Or so I hear. I'm still waiting for CCP to show their colours on this matter
.
It is not like CCP have a choice here. The must go with MT to keep up with the market.
On the other hand a few inherited obstacles are not in their favour - alt accounts and robust player economy.
Only reasonable worry here is that they screw it up somehow but that isn't really related to just MT
Sorry, no they don't. It's a greedy move for any company with a monthly fee. Pick one or the other; not both.
If numbers say that people are willing and do pay monthly fee AND pay for MT, why would I do that? If people wants it and I have it, I give it to them. That is what this business is about.
Let me see if I can clarify this for you:
Ok, so let's say I"m a newb and I don't feel like grinding for isk. I do, however, have plenty of extra cash lying around so I go and buy ten extra plex and sell them. Current market values puts that at 4bil isk, which is a lot. However, being a newb I don't really bother researching ship loadouts. I also don't really bother finding out tactics for pvp. After all - I have 4 bill, I payed to win, right?
Wrong.
Let's say you spend a few months to be able to max fit out a battleship and I load it up with the most expensive mods I can find. After all, I'm a useless newb who thinks I can pay to win because I have 4bill isk. That means I win, right?
Nope
So you go out in your battleship that's worth let's say 2bil. So you've got it loaded to the gills and you're thinking you're hot shit. You're thinking, "time to go rape some people in lowsec". On your way to lowsec you run into a pirate gang of intie's. Uh oh, your turrets can't track them, but you're in a loaded out ship that's worth 2 bil....surely a couple of inties worth 25m a pop aren't a threat!
Wrong, again.
So now you've got four pvp intie's who have just mopped up your drones, have you scrammed and webbed and are orbiting you. Your turrets cannot track them because you're in a battleship and they're just too small and too fast. They may be small, but they're each pumping 250 dps (1k dps total)....your tank can only hold 850 for 5m. You can't warp out and you can't kill them.
Congrats. You just wasted 2bil because you thought you could pay to win.
Clear now?
This "business" is about making good solid games without resorting to underhanded methods of swindling people. People may pay for a game because they really love it, but that doesn't mean they're happy with the price. Or perhaps they just don't know any better, like people who buy computers from Best Buy.
Guild Wars is a high-quality game (one of the only MMORPGs of real quality today) that did just fine with microtransactions, but beared no monthly subscription fee, therefore proving that you can make a FINE game without having both MT and subscriptions simultaneously. EVE may look nice, and they may claim they need the money, but it's nothing but a load of bullshit to cover up their greed. Much like Blizzard, they've become extremely greedy and now, they've paid, or are starting to pay, the price for such greed by watching a rather large amount of people flock away from their game. They deserve no less.
We, the loyal playerbase, like our developers to remain loyal to us and listen to our input. Just look what happened with Final Fantasy XIV! They completely (completely) ignored any and all input from beta and released a jumbled, awful excuse for an MMORPG (or any game for that matter) and now they're paying for it. The developers may be the ones making the games, but they're making the games to please the fans. That's how you make money in this "business". You please us and make the game enjoyable; you can do this without resorting to microtransactions. All that's going on here is pure corporate bullshit, and if I'm the ony player in the world who is standing up to this (which I'm obviously not), then so be it. I'll find something else to do. I refuse to play and support--like much of the ex-EVE community--dishonest and disloyal game-makers.
Yes Eve has had microtransactrions for a long time. Some fans are denying it but the fact is that you can buy PLEX for RL money, which in turn can be converted to IG currency, which in turn you can buy virtually anything. From equipment to a skilled character.
Now if that means P2W is another discussion. I would say it is a big factor, some others say it is not as Eve is all about skillz.
My gaming blog
Sorry but no. Business is about making money. No more, no less.
If my revenue says going left is the direction to go and forum minority - as you label them 'loyal player base' say I should go right, the decision is simple.
Forums isn't credible source of feedback.
1) It is just talks, not actions.
2) It represents only those who post.
3) It isn't specific and difficult to measure and quantify.
CCP is indeed pleasing their players, just not the vocal minority that is irrationally refusing MT as a part of the game.
Every game change is pleasing and displeasing some group of players. Pleasing all is impossible. CCP isn't greedy or not listening because they have just displeased you. Displeasing players is a natural the part of the game changing process.
Accept it and adapt or leave, in that case there is no need to make a fuss about it, it is all fair.
Very well put, we need more articulate people like you who tells what many MMORPG fans feel. Far from everyone are accepting this sub+RMT bullshit that is being pushed on us. It is time we as a community make a stand and say NO! We are not accepting this!
My gaming blog
Sorry, but yes. Sir.
Why thank you, I was beginning to think I was the only one here with some common sense.
Well, I truly enjoyed your exhaustive reasoning on this one after I provided you points on where your assumptions are flawed.
There is no more need to say to validity of your claims...
Thank you, I hope you found it educational.
Gotta agree, and as a former beta tester for FFXIV, I couldn't have said it better myself. I absolutely will not believe this sort of thing to be anything more than greed. I just hope CCP, as well as all game teams eventually learn something.
Yep, they learned that forum feedback is worthless and that people spend money on MT, regardless whether there is a monthly fee or not.
Also, they learned that nerd rage is just a nerd rage...
Yeah, I'm sure Square Enix is learning just how worthless forum feedback is right now. Right?
Whenever someone kills an NPC they are getting stuff that doesn't come from "the ecomony".
Yeah it's about skillz. Those who have been subscribed longer have the most skill points, one could even say they "payed to win."
There is no difference between a cash shop and looting an NPC, both items are artificially generated out of thin air.
EvE is pay to win, no matter how you look at it.
Not only can you buy every weapon or ship in game with RL money, you can also buy 7 year old characters with max skills if you have enough RL money, all sanctioned on the forums by CCP.
There is no clearer definition of P2W than EvE.
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