interesting. the biggest complaints that I am heraing here about SWG from those who didn't like it are
a: it was buggy. welcome to mmorpg gaming.
b: it was boring / not story driven. welcome to sandbox gaming, where no one is there to hold your hand and there are no trails of breadcrumbs to follow to the shiny purple carrot.
You are entitled to your opinions, naturally. But SWG vets are entitled to theirs as well.
As for the poster above who mentioned mando armor.....I had mando armor. I farmed the Death Watch Bunker until I got enough liquids. I crafted the schematics. I bought the best resources in the galaxy, and made the armor cores myself.
I built the armor myself, and made it in the colors I wanted. It took almost a year to accomplish....but in the end, it was MINE, completely individual, and built from scratch.
Beats the Hell out of some cookie-cutter raid-boss drop that everyone else has, or some lame quest reward.
As for the poster above who mentioned mando armor.....I had mando armor. I farmed the Death Watch Bunker until I got enough liquids. I crafted the schematics. I bought the best resources in the galaxy, and made the armor cores myself.
I built the armor myself, and made it in the colors I wanted. It took almost a year to accomplish....but in the end, it was MINE, completely individual, and built from scratch.
Sounds like fun. Actually not really, it sounds like a job. I'll leave my ridiculously hard work for material gains in my real life.
So Lucas Arts listened to a known and, at that time, highly successful and proven MMO company when they said, "Trust us, this will work better, renew interest in the game, and make more money," and that makes them spiteful? Riiiiiigght. Maybe you should think this through a little further. SOE was 100% wrong, but they thought they had a winner with the NGE and Lucas Arts trusted them to deliver. Now SWG sucks and nobody is happy with it, so Lucas Arts refused to renew their licensure in favor of of what Bioware is producing. How evil, how horrid, how dare they attempt to make a sound business decision!
As for the "lack of imagination" you're the one who suffers from an inability to appreciate a story and would rather kill cows for experience points or "skill points." Bioware's original Knights of the Old Republic won a ton of awards. Perhaps you should examine your personal limitations in relation to the idea that story is a good thing and attempt to grow a little?
Space on rails...definitely sucks. If you're going to do Star Wars, you need better space combat and options than this. Have to agree with you on this one.
As for gaming being mostly unregulated, enjoy your chance to sample mostly free commerce while it lasts. And quit complaining about freedom of speech please, most of us in America rather enjoy our rights.
RPing online. As someone who has played actual role playing games since he was 10 (I'm 36 now) I find online RP to be utterly pointless. Try actually playing a game somewhere besides a computer and you'll probably see my point. Then again, you don't seem all that bright, so I may be wrong about that. Oh, and if you ever actually play a real RPG, you will swiftly discover the story is directed by the DM/GM/Storyteller, just like it is for this game. A good DM gives the players options to pursue, but does not let them wander completely away from the story. If you don't believe me, look for Gary Gygax's essay on DMing. I'm sure it's floating around online somewhere.
Lucas Arts never had the power to revive SWG. SOE controlled the people who developed it and licensed the name and intellectual property rights from Lucas Arts. Lucas Arts could yay or nay ideas, concepts, etc. but they could never force SOE to do anything, that's not how licensing works. And while SWG was fun, and something to be proud of, it hasn't been for longer than SWTOR has been around even as an idea. This isn't a conspiracy situation, it's real life. The old product died, sound business dictates you try to push the new one. Especially since even if you rolled back SWG, you wouldn't get that many customers. Most of us who played are too angry with SOE to spend our money on them. And, once again, because it bares repeating, Lucas Arts can't force SOE to do anything. They can only deny them the option to do something new or make changes.
As for there being no good games, I enjoy Rift right now. It has nearly the same level of class flexibility that SWG had and they're slowly building it into a good game (much like SOE did with SWG until they fucked it up). The reason there are no good sand boxes is that for most of us sand boxes suck. You're a minority, deal with it, grow up, and move on.
And dude, really, you actually want to be a moisture farmer? How about you just get a second job and work for real money instead of digital coin? You'll find it spends better.
As for your "lack of balls" I posit instead that we have something far more elusive referred to as "brains." Thinking with them works much better than thinking with balls.
Edit: Wow, I actually spelled played as plaid. I need sleep.
As for the poster above who mentioned mando armor.....I had mando armor. I farmed the Death Watch Bunker until I got enough liquids. I crafted the schematics. I bought the best resources in the galaxy, and made the armor cores myself.
I built the armor myself, and made it in the colors I wanted. It took almost a year to accomplish....but in the end, it was MINE, completely individual, and built from scratch.
Sounds like fun. Actually not really, it sounds like a job. I'll leave my ridiculously hard work for material gains in my real life.
Lol, having helped with Mando farming, it was definitely a job. Just helping out once convinced me to never attempt it. Like you, I want to work hard at my real job and enjoy my time off, not pick up a second job.
I wouldn't phrase my dismay with TOR in the same manner that the OP did, but we share a similar perspective. It's a bit appalling when I see the amount of hype and excitement for this game, something that has had an estimated 500 million spent on its' creation, to find that the end product is something that I've already played before with a different skin (which is true, despite the denial). Sure, the details vary from other games. With TOR, we get some single player story elements, we get spaceships and aliens, and a whole array of slick looking featurettes that, when combined together, are almost deceptively captivating. But what does any of that matter, when the majority of what I'm going to be doing is 1-2-3 all over again, talking to some NPC and ignoring the dialogue, because (guess what) I play single player games for single player stories. And I know, what's the harm in combining the two, right? Nothing's wrong with it necessarily, except when looking at the game (from what is available at this point) and then at the budget, and trying to determine why a single player story built in an MMO cost so effing much, and why the hell the action looks like something I've seen and/or done a million times over before, for countless hours.
I get the love for Star Wars, even though I feel it's becoming more and more stale, but I just don't understand why someone with the budget of BioWare would attempt to further solidify the trend of themepark's in the MMOsphere, aside for any other reason than greed, when they could actually do something creative, refreshing -- something truly eye opening, and not just another damn MMO that looks entirely milk-toast.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
something that has had an estimated 500 million spent on its' creation
Make that around 100 million dollar and you're closer around realistic figures
They opted for themepark because it's the most successful design model seen so far, looking at the number of people playing themepark based MMORPG's it was not that hard to conclude that apparently a hell of a lot of MMO gamers like to play that kind of MMORPG's.
In that specific subgenre, it looks like SWTOR will be a juggernaut with a worldsize and an amount of content that dwarfs all other themepark MMO's and maybe only WoW as an exception when it comes to total amount of content.
Take into account the level of quality and polish that BW will deliver SWTOR with and the enhanced immersion that the leveling experience (for main characters and alts) will have, and SWTOR will still be impressive even if its themepark design wouldn't be the preferred choice of MMO type for a group of MMO gamers.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
When are you people going to get this between your freaking ears: TOR is NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT related to SWG except in that it is another Star Wars game.
The concept is completely and utterly different, they are aimed at completely different audiences and are made by completely different companies. From the very start it was absolutely clear that TOR would NOT be SWG 2.0. The NGE was an update which changed SWG, as SWG and TOR are unrelated there is no such thing as an NGE 2.0 done solely to spite pre-cu SWG players.
The only problem here is with yourself, you are the one nagging like a child because you didn't get the toy you wanted.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Whenever it comes to art, literature, movies, films and games mmos or otherwise, I can't help to be disappointed when I see lack of vision on the scale that we are seeing with ToR. Lack of potential and greed instead.
It is clear by now that LA pulled out of SWG. We will never know who really pushed who to do the NGE and keep it with no classic servers, but there can be no doubt that it was LA who pulled the plug. Why should SOE do it? Think of the timing..
So what LA is really saying is that first we gave gamers SWG, then we forced the NGE and after years of pleading from the player community to recreate the classic SWG they instead pull the plug to see if they can forcefeed us the NGE 2.0
Sure some players like vanilla gameplay. Some players like space on rails, some players just love to be forcefed "story". Some players will take anything Star Wars. Some players just like Bioware. BUT as an mmo it is a disgrace. By now it is clear they are going WoW/Vanilla/EQII... or to be more precise..they are going for the easy money...
SW ToR has been created for one purpose only and that is to make LA/Bioware rich. Sure - I appreciate very company without exception wants to make money. But you have to look hard for this kind of cynical behavior in the gaming industry... oh wait you don't!
The gaming industry today is one of the most unregulated business areas. The stuff companies can pull off would never have worked in lots of other areas. But there is this tendency to think of gaming that it doesn't matter. So creating half-baked, half-finshed games doesn't matter.
That doesn't excuse LA/Bioware though.
What's the point of these "mmo" games that are not massive, not really roleplaying either? I can't seem to find the point. And when Bioware today admits that there are 200 hours of gameplay it is like acknowledging that there is no point in terms of playing a roleplaying game. Yeeeah - let's all play the same game with the same character with the same sidekick having the same story and same space on rails game....
What is the point of playing the same game as everyone else... esp. since it is in small groups and not massive at all?
SWG is dead. It died a long time ago. LA had the power to revive it. Instead they wanted to channel more players towards ToR and pretend SWG never happened. Why create something amazing, something to be proud of, when you can instead aim for the lowest common denominator.
In lack of proper games I have I NO doubt they will sell a lot of boxes and make some returns. But ToR only has potential because there really are no good massive roleplaying games out there right now..
Bioware claims we all wants to be heroes and not moisture farmers. Hell - they just don't get a clue. The more moisture farmers in a game the more people who wants to be heroes can be heroes. If everyone is the same no one is special. With Bioware they even make an extra point out of giving you the same story as all others of your class.
Besides: In SWG I saw crafters being more heroes than most gun-toting, sabre-swinging rambo..
I can't fathom though why people with a good imagination would like to play a scripted story like this, when we have the potential to have great breathing, dynamic worlds. We have the tech, we have network... all we lack are the balls!
This was funny, someone needs to chill out. You're logic is invalid, I'm pretty sure bioware is one of the best dev companys, not just in my eyes, but n the eyes of millions. The story aspect in MMOs is longggggggggggg overdue and about time we got one, no one better to do it then bioware. Thanks for the laugh tho
Karasu Linkshell for Final fantasy 14 now accepting all members! Just head on over to karasuls.shivtr.com and apply now! Linkshell info is on the site.
I wouldn't phrase my dismay with TOR in the same manner that the OP did, but we share a similar perspective. It's a bit appalling when I see the amount of hype and excitement for this game, something that has had an estimated 500 million spent on its' creation, to find that the end product is something that I've already played before with a different skin (which is true, despite the denial). Sure, the details vary from other games. With TOR, we get some single player story elements, we get spaceships and aliens, and a whole array of slick looking featurettes that, when combined together, are almost deceptively captivating. But what does any of that matter, when the majority of what I'm going to be doing is 1-2-3 all over again, talking to some NPC and ignoring the dialogue, because (guess what) I play single player games for single player stories. And I know, what's the harm in combining the two, right? Nothing's wrong with it necessarily, except when looking at the game (from what is available at this point) and then at the budget, and trying to determine why a single player story built in an MMO cost so effing much, and why the hell the action looks like something I've seen and/or done a million times over before, for countless hours.
I get the love for Star Wars, even though I feel it's becoming more and more stale, but I just don't understand why someone with the budget of BioWare would attempt to further solidify the trend of themepark's in the MMOsphere, aside for any other reason than greed, when they could actually do something creative, refreshing -- something truly eye opening, and not just another damn MMO that looks entirely milk-toast.
Pretty sure the budget wasn't 500mil. You should really check your facts, it is nowhere even close to that number.
Karasu Linkshell for Final fantasy 14 now accepting all members! Just head on over to karasuls.shivtr.com and apply now! Linkshell info is on the site.
Jesus Horatio Christ, do I get sick of reading posts where gamers - with arguably no understanding of their chosen media - whine about how Company A doesn't, either:
1. Care
2. Listen
3. Act like your best buddy
When will you get it? THEY DO CARE! They're a frickin' business! You cannot run any kind of customer-driven business successfully without caring about your customers! Why is this so damn hard to understand?
EVERY CUSTOMER-DRIVEN BUSINESS ELLICITS FEEDBACK, AND TRACKS CUSTOMER STATISTICS, in any number of different ways. Why? So that they can get more customers. Why? So they can make more money! No customers = no money = no development = NO HOBBY FOR YOU.
Let me make it clearer: MMO companies are not in this to be your Paris Hilton BFF. They make games because A) they make money, and that's what they love doing.
They listen to us all the time. They simply don't always do what YOU want them to do.
And there's only one answer to that: don't play. If you don't like what they're doing, grab a Coke and a smile and move the hell on. Just quit sitting in this limbo because you're still enamoured with the concept of a game, but depressed and angry because they're not making it how you want it to be.
The other answer, of course, is go make your own damn game!
If you don't believe me, consider this: I dare to state that SOE listened to their customers when the NGE was ordered by accountants and corporate management in love with WoW's numbers. Devs likely told them it was a terrible fucking idea. They did it anyway, and look what happened. They 'listened' to customers from games like WoW, and decided that the NGE was in the best interests of their business. They failed. And now look where SWG is? That's right, no real development for the last few years, and at the end of this year, the game goes six-feet under.
I can give you kids a ton of other examples, but I'm too damn tired.
Is it clear to you now?
Do us all a favour, please, and quit posting lines like, 'blah blah evil corporation doesn't listen to us'. Do that, and I'll follow my own advice and quit reading these internet-choking whine-fests.
I used to love SWG myself before the NGE and have not given SOE a dime since.
But that said, your claims towards Bioware is unfounded. Your talking about a company that has no history of sandbox or that kind, but rather has a strong history of strong scripted story games and they do it well. So basicly for me SW TOR will be a gloryfied single player game with co-op mode. So yeah I will most likely subscribe for periods to feed my single player hunger, but it will never be my main mmo.
About LA i have no opinion as i have no insight to what influence they enforce towards Bioware and SOE.
Another SWG vet / sandbox fan who things that Bioware ahould make a game fitting his liking and preferences. The world does not evolve around you my friend and most definitely TOR is not going to fail because you dream or wish for this to happen. The only one being spiteful here is you and this is not your only post about TOR displaying a childish and immature attitude.
And please, spare us the SWG references. I was in the pre NGE era and it was not that golden as many of you project. The game was bugy with vast empty spaces, clumsy combat and bleeding subs.
For better or for worse sandbox likers are the minority, a vocal one i must admitt. Do you really believe that EA - Bioware spend all that money just to make an MMO for 30, 40 maybe 50K subs? I think it's time for you guys to come back to Earth.
interesting. the biggest complaints that I am heraing here about SWG from those who didn't like it are
a: it was buggy. welcome to mmorpg gaming.
b: it was boring / not story driven. welcome to sandbox gaming, where no one is there to hold your hand and there are no trails of breadcrumbs to follow to the shiny purple carrot.
You can't have sandbox gaming in a world that already has established lore, an established canon and an established timeline.
SWG's biggest mistake was being a Star Wars game in the original movie universe and trying to be a sandbox. The only way to make a sandbox Star Wars game in the original movie universe is to make the player's goal in life to be the best Uncle Owen or Mos Eisley Cantina owner or Stormtropper Drone #1047745187 they can be. Most players aren't going to want that. They want to be Han Solo, or Boba Fett, or Vader.
Sure some players like vanilla gameplay. Some players like space on rails, some players just love to be forcefed "story". Some players will take anything Star Wars. Some players just like Bioware. BUT as an mmo it is a disgrace. By now it is clear they are going WoW/Vanilla/EQII... or to be more precise..they are going for the easy money...
Some players? I think most players is what you meant to say, or else it wouldn't be the easy money.
I think you are missing the fact that Bioware is an established developer. They are not new to the gaming industry. They are making a forcefed "story" based game because that's the kind of games they make and that's what their fans expect. If they made something different there would be a huge backlash and they wouldn't do nearly as well financially.
Think about it for a second. Could you imagine if Valve, instead of creating a deep single player FPS story driven game, went and made some weird game with no real story where you just flung boxes around different locked rooms until you solved some obscure puzzle to unlock the door?
I mean, that's just cra... oh wait.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
I think it's very simple: if a person dislikes themepark gameplay which by reading these posts and other threads some people obviously do, then they should avoid all MMORPG's that focus on that kind of gameplay, like for example themepark MMO's.
I mean, if someone likes shooters and hates/dislikes sports games, then you don't see him look up sports games forums and hang around them either now, right?
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
interesting. the biggest complaints that I am heraing here about SWG from those who didn't like it are
a: it was buggy. welcome to mmorpg gaming.
Um..WHAT? SWG isn't my only MMO rodeo. I've played Warhammer, WOW and STO and none of them had the slopiness, lag, rubberbanding and crashes that SWG had. I also didn't start playing SWG until late 2004, a year and a half after it had been released. The fact that it still had all those problems so long after release speaks very poorly of the design and the game itself.
b: it was boring / not story driven. welcome to sandbox gaming, where no one is there to hold your hand and there are no trails of breadcrumbs to follow to the shiny purple carrot.
Once again, thank you captain obvious. I'm very well aware of what sandbox gaming entails and good sandbox games aren't boring. EVE has managed to maintain an impressive number of subscribers that grow year after year and no one can claim that game is boring. I myself enjoy playing around with Tropico, because it has so many nice mechanics that I'm not playing the same game over and over again. SWG was a very poorly conceived sandbox that was just plain too boring for most people to play.
You are entitled to your opinions, naturally. But SWG vets are entitled to theirs as well.
No one is saying they aren't entitled to those opions, but keep them in the proper forums. That is what the principle argument is here. The SWG Vets has not done themselves any favors with their constant blathering about SWG on these forums.It's one thing to say they wish TOR was another SWG, but it's a whole other thing to do it on a consistent basis for three straight years.I've went from actually feeling bad for what happened with the NGE to not giving a damn to now holding many of them in complete and utter contempt. TOR is not SWG, it never will be and constantly whining for it isn't going to change anything. Get over it already.
Let's get off the SWG derail, guys If you wish to compare SWG and SWTOR, please create a new thread here. If you wish to discuss SWG's demise and LucasArts, SOE and those topics, please do so in the SWG forums.
To give feedback on moderation, contact mikeb@mmorpg.com
I think it's very simple: if a person dislikes themepark gameplay which by reading these posts and other threads some people obviously do, then they should avoid all MMORPG's that focus on that kind of gameplay, like for example themepark MMO's.
I mean, if someone likes shooters and hates/dislikes sports games, then you don't see him look up sports games forums and hang around them either now, right?
Very good point. I always found that type of behavior to be immature myself.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
I'd rather be forcefed canon lore/story than be in the SWG universe. I like the stupids saying you felt like you were in star wars. Lulz? Pre-CU, yes. NGE? With a million jedi running around when they were supposed to be extinct? You felt immersed? Don't make me laugh. And I guess all RPG games are forcefed stories. Why should console games even have story? Just let me run around with no direction and do what I want.
Jesus.
This variant of questing is actually less forcefed than any other themepark because you decide the outcome. You aren't forced into the LONE HERO role for once. Oh wait, people whining baout story probably never read quest text in their whole mmo career. Right. So you don't really give about the story one way or another.
interesting. the biggest complaints that I am heraing here about SWG from those who didn't like it are
a: it was buggy. welcome to mmorpg gaming.
b: it was boring / not story driven. welcome to sandbox gaming, where no one is there to hold your hand and there are no trails of breadcrumbs to follow to the shiny purple carrot.
You are entitled to your opinions, naturally. But SWG vets are entitled to theirs as well.
As for the poster above who mentioned mando armor.....I had mando armor. I farmed the Death Watch Bunker until I got enough liquids. I crafted the schematics. I bought the best resources in the galaxy, and made the armor cores myself.
I built the armor myself, and made it in the colors I wanted. It took almost a year to accomplish....but in the end, it was MINE, completely individual, and built from scratch.
Beats the Hell out of some cookie-cutter raid-boss drop that everyone else has, or some lame quest reward.
Well said.
However, the time of the sliver platters has begun.
Comments
interesting. the biggest complaints that I am heraing here about SWG from those who didn't like it are
a: it was buggy. welcome to mmorpg gaming.
b: it was boring / not story driven. welcome to sandbox gaming, where no one is there to hold your hand and there are no trails of breadcrumbs to follow to the shiny purple carrot.
You are entitled to your opinions, naturally. But SWG vets are entitled to theirs as well.
As for the poster above who mentioned mando armor.....I had mando armor. I farmed the Death Watch Bunker until I got enough liquids. I crafted the schematics. I bought the best resources in the galaxy, and made the armor cores myself.
I built the armor myself, and made it in the colors I wanted. It took almost a year to accomplish....but in the end, it was MINE, completely individual, and built from scratch.
Beats the Hell out of some cookie-cutter raid-boss drop that everyone else has, or some lame quest reward.
Sounds like fun. Actually not really, it sounds like a job. I'll leave my ridiculously hard work for material gains in my real life.
So Lucas Arts listened to a known and, at that time, highly successful and proven MMO company when they said, "Trust us, this will work better, renew interest in the game, and make more money," and that makes them spiteful? Riiiiiigght. Maybe you should think this through a little further. SOE was 100% wrong, but they thought they had a winner with the NGE and Lucas Arts trusted them to deliver. Now SWG sucks and nobody is happy with it, so Lucas Arts refused to renew their licensure in favor of of what Bioware is producing. How evil, how horrid, how dare they attempt to make a sound business decision!
As for the "lack of imagination" you're the one who suffers from an inability to appreciate a story and would rather kill cows for experience points or "skill points." Bioware's original Knights of the Old Republic won a ton of awards. Perhaps you should examine your personal limitations in relation to the idea that story is a good thing and attempt to grow a little?
Space on rails...definitely sucks. If you're going to do Star Wars, you need better space combat and options than this. Have to agree with you on this one.
As for gaming being mostly unregulated, enjoy your chance to sample mostly free commerce while it lasts. And quit complaining about freedom of speech please, most of us in America rather enjoy our rights.
RPing online. As someone who has played actual role playing games since he was 10 (I'm 36 now) I find online RP to be utterly pointless. Try actually playing a game somewhere besides a computer and you'll probably see my point. Then again, you don't seem all that bright, so I may be wrong about that. Oh, and if you ever actually play a real RPG, you will swiftly discover the story is directed by the DM/GM/Storyteller, just like it is for this game. A good DM gives the players options to pursue, but does not let them wander completely away from the story. If you don't believe me, look for Gary Gygax's essay on DMing. I'm sure it's floating around online somewhere.
Lucas Arts never had the power to revive SWG. SOE controlled the people who developed it and licensed the name and intellectual property rights from Lucas Arts. Lucas Arts could yay or nay ideas, concepts, etc. but they could never force SOE to do anything, that's not how licensing works. And while SWG was fun, and something to be proud of, it hasn't been for longer than SWTOR has been around even as an idea. This isn't a conspiracy situation, it's real life. The old product died, sound business dictates you try to push the new one. Especially since even if you rolled back SWG, you wouldn't get that many customers. Most of us who played are too angry with SOE to spend our money on them. And, once again, because it bares repeating, Lucas Arts can't force SOE to do anything. They can only deny them the option to do something new or make changes.
As for there being no good games, I enjoy Rift right now. It has nearly the same level of class flexibility that SWG had and they're slowly building it into a good game (much like SOE did with SWG until they fucked it up). The reason there are no good sand boxes is that for most of us sand boxes suck. You're a minority, deal with it, grow up, and move on.
And dude, really, you actually want to be a moisture farmer? How about you just get a second job and work for real money instead of digital coin? You'll find it spends better.
As for your "lack of balls" I posit instead that we have something far more elusive referred to as "brains." Thinking with them works much better than thinking with balls.
Edit: Wow, I actually spelled played as plaid. I need sleep.
Lol, having helped with Mando farming, it was definitely a job. Just helping out once convinced me to never attempt it. Like you, I want to work hard at my real job and enjoy my time off, not pick up a second job.
Generic Complaint with bogus percentages and unfounded opinions sprinkled throughout in a perpetual rant.
"The problem with quotes from the Internet is that it's almost impossible to validate their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
I wouldn't phrase my dismay with TOR in the same manner that the OP did, but we share a similar perspective. It's a bit appalling when I see the amount of hype and excitement for this game, something that has had an estimated 500 million spent on its' creation, to find that the end product is something that I've already played before with a different skin (which is true, despite the denial). Sure, the details vary from other games. With TOR, we get some single player story elements, we get spaceships and aliens, and a whole array of slick looking featurettes that, when combined together, are almost deceptively captivating. But what does any of that matter, when the majority of what I'm going to be doing is 1-2-3 all over again, talking to some NPC and ignoring the dialogue, because (guess what) I play single player games for single player stories. And I know, what's the harm in combining the two, right? Nothing's wrong with it necessarily, except when looking at the game (from what is available at this point) and then at the budget, and trying to determine why a single player story built in an MMO cost so effing much, and why the hell the action looks like something I've seen and/or done a million times over before, for countless hours.
I get the love for Star Wars, even though I feel it's becoming more and more stale, but I just don't understand why someone with the budget of BioWare would attempt to further solidify the trend of themepark's in the MMOsphere, aside for any other reason than greed, when they could actually do something creative, refreshing -- something truly eye opening, and not just another damn MMO that looks entirely milk-toast.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Make that around 100 million dollar and you're closer around realistic figures
They opted for themepark because it's the most successful design model seen so far, looking at the number of people playing themepark based MMORPG's it was not that hard to conclude that apparently a hell of a lot of MMO gamers like to play that kind of MMORPG's.
In that specific subgenre, it looks like SWTOR will be a juggernaut with a worldsize and an amount of content that dwarfs all other themepark MMO's and maybe only WoW as an exception when it comes to total amount of content.
Take into account the level of quality and polish that BW will deliver SWTOR with and the enhanced immersion that the leveling experience (for main characters and alts) will have, and SWTOR will still be impressive even if its themepark design wouldn't be the preferred choice of MMO type for a group of MMO gamers.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Oh for the love...
When are you people going to get this between your freaking ears: TOR is NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT related to SWG except in that it is another Star Wars game.
The concept is completely and utterly different, they are aimed at completely different audiences and are made by completely different companies. From the very start it was absolutely clear that TOR would NOT be SWG 2.0. The NGE was an update which changed SWG, as SWG and TOR are unrelated there is no such thing as an NGE 2.0 done solely to spite pre-cu SWG players.
The only problem here is with yourself, you are the one nagging like a child because you didn't get the toy you wanted.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
This was funny, someone needs to chill out. You're logic is invalid, I'm pretty sure bioware is one of the best dev companys, not just in my eyes, but n the eyes of millions. The story aspect in MMOs is longggggggggggg overdue and about time we got one, no one better to do it then bioware. Thanks for the laugh tho
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Pretty sure the budget wasn't 500mil. You should really check your facts, it is nowhere even close to that number.
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Jesus Horatio Christ, do I get sick of reading posts where gamers - with arguably no understanding of their chosen media - whine about how Company A doesn't, either:
1. Care
2. Listen
3. Act like your best buddy
When will you get it? THEY DO CARE! They're a frickin' business! You cannot run any kind of customer-driven business successfully without caring about your customers! Why is this so damn hard to understand?
EVERY CUSTOMER-DRIVEN BUSINESS ELLICITS FEEDBACK, AND TRACKS CUSTOMER STATISTICS, in any number of different ways. Why? So that they can get more customers. Why? So they can make more money! No customers = no money = no development = NO HOBBY FOR YOU.
Let me make it clearer: MMO companies are not in this to be your Paris Hilton BFF. They make games because A) they make money, and
that's what they love doing.
They listen to us all the time. They simply don't always do what YOU want them to do.
And there's only one answer to that: don't play. If you don't like what they're doing, grab a Coke and a smile and move the hell on. Just quit sitting in this limbo because you're still enamoured with the concept of a game, but depressed and angry because they're not making it how you want it to be.
The other answer, of course, is go make your own damn game!
If you don't believe me, consider this: I dare to state that SOE listened to their customers when the NGE was ordered by accountants and corporate management in love with WoW's numbers. Devs likely told them it was a terrible fucking idea. They did it anyway, and look what happened. They 'listened' to customers from games like WoW, and decided that the NGE was in the best interests of their business. They failed. And now look where SWG is? That's right, no real development for the last few years, and at the end of this year, the game goes six-feet under.
I can give you kids a ton of other examples, but I'm too damn tired.
Is it clear to you now?
Do us all a favour, please, and quit posting lines like, 'blah blah evil corporation doesn't listen to us'. Do that, and I'll follow my own advice and quit reading these internet-choking whine-fests.
I used to love SWG myself before the NGE and have not given SOE a dime since.
But that said, your claims towards Bioware is unfounded. Your talking about a company that has no history of sandbox or that kind, but rather has a strong history of strong scripted story games and they do it well. So basicly for me SW TOR will be a gloryfied single player game with co-op mode. So yeah I will most likely subscribe for periods to feed my single player hunger, but it will never be my main mmo.
About LA i have no opinion as i have no insight to what influence they enforce towards Bioware and SOE.
Another SWG vet / sandbox fan who things that Bioware ahould make a game fitting his liking and preferences. The world does not evolve around you my friend and most definitely TOR is not going to fail because you dream or wish for this to happen. The only one being spiteful here is you and this is not your only post about TOR displaying a childish and immature attitude.
And please, spare us the SWG references. I was in the pre NGE era and it was not that golden as many of you project. The game was bugy with vast empty spaces, clumsy combat and bleeding subs.
For better or for worse sandbox likers are the minority, a vocal one i must admitt. Do you really believe that EA - Bioware spend all that money just to make an MMO for 30, 40 maybe 50K subs? I think it's time for you guys to come back to Earth.
You can't have sandbox gaming in a world that already has established lore, an established canon and an established timeline.
SWG's biggest mistake was being a Star Wars game in the original movie universe and trying to be a sandbox. The only way to make a sandbox Star Wars game in the original movie universe is to make the player's goal in life to be the best Uncle Owen or Mos Eisley Cantina owner or Stormtropper Drone #1047745187 they can be. Most players aren't going to want that. They want to be Han Solo, or Boba Fett, or Vader.
Some players? I think most players is what you meant to say, or else it wouldn't be the easy money.
I think you are missing the fact that Bioware is an established developer. They are not new to the gaming industry. They are making a forcefed "story" based game because that's the kind of games they make and that's what their fans expect. If they made something different there would be a huge backlash and they wouldn't do nearly as well financially.
Think about it for a second. Could you imagine if Valve, instead of creating a deep single player FPS story driven game, went and made some weird game with no real story where you just flung boxes around different locked rooms until you solved some obscure puzzle to unlock the door?
I mean, that's just cra... oh wait.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
I think it's very simple: if a person dislikes themepark gameplay which by reading these posts and other threads some people obviously do, then they should avoid all MMORPG's that focus on that kind of gameplay, like for example themepark MMO's.
I mean, if someone likes shooters and hates/dislikes sports games, then you don't see him look up sports games forums and hang around them either now, right?
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Let's get off the SWG derail, guys If you wish to compare SWG and SWTOR, please create a new thread here. If you wish to discuss SWG's demise and LucasArts, SOE and those topics, please do so in the SWG forums.
To give feedback on moderation, contact mikeb@mmorpg.com
Very good point. I always found that type of behavior to be immature myself.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
I'd rather be forcefed canon lore/story than be in the SWG universe. I like the stupids saying you felt like you were in star wars. Lulz? Pre-CU, yes. NGE? With a million jedi running around when they were supposed to be extinct? You felt immersed? Don't make me laugh. And I guess all RPG games are forcefed stories. Why should console games even have story? Just let me run around with no direction and do what I want.
Jesus.
This variant of questing is actually less forcefed than any other themepark because you decide the outcome. You aren't forced into the LONE HERO role for once. Oh wait, people whining baout story probably never read quest text in their whole mmo career. Right. So you don't really give about the story one way or another.
Don't act concerned.
How about everyone wait for the game to be released before saying it will be best game ever.
How about everyone wait for the game to be released before saying it will be worst game ever?
Well said.
However, the time of the sliver platters has begun.
Lul, isn't that what the guy above said?
You seem mad.
Yeah but i had to repeat myself to point out the irony of your statement.