Originally posted by qazyman Sandbox, persistent universe, player driven economy, high death penalty, PVP .It seems as if I remember that from somewhere, I just can't remember where.
WTF ? Gamers demand cash shops in subscription based MMO's ?
Some people could sell ice to Eskimos.
EVE was built on being different from other games. This has been important because it hasn't brought the game into direct competition with larger more successful games. CCP has been able to develop its own market. Many gamers fear that CCP is moving to a more traditional gaming model, and the game will suffer the same fate as every other game that has attempted to compete directly with WOW and the few successful WOW clones.
Yes, maybe the market has changed, or maybe CCP is just one of the countless gaming companies that saw a gold ring at the end of the casual gaming market, and fell flat on it's face reaching for it.
Just thought someone should say something that remotely made since.
So CCP was built on being different? How so? It's a pvp game with a player run market and "safe spots" for industrialists/traders/mission runners. How is that so being built to be different? Other games with pvp elements contain the same mechanics. What EVE is is a NICHE game.
EVE became a niche game due to certain factors:
First off it's sci-fi in a market where fantasy MMO games dominate;
The market is mostly player driven (but there are now other games with player driven markets out there);
A higher learning curve then other MMOs that appealed to players that wanted a bit more challenge.
And thats about it.
CCP wants to make money like everyone else. They have bills to pay and they want to diversify and make other games. Anything wrong with that? I dont see anything wrong with it. For their niche player base it will be an adjustment. If they dont like it they can run around as a robot in Perp and take their money elsewhere. Cash shop is coming to Perp anyway.
This is where the industry is going. Cash shops, MTs, ingame items. Dont like it, dont buy them. I too hope they are only vanity items but if CCP has to make a move towards more substantial items that may effect gameplay, I guess Ill just buy one of them
I just don't understand how any rational player would support this idea
How? Simple.
MMO were launched when internet wasn't as widely spread and online entertainment market was very small and the customers were norrowly profiled - mostly funs and enthusiasts of virtual worlds.
As the technology improved and internet become available to much larger audience, the online entertainment started to growth rapidly and as well the customer profile has changed. The MMO gamers no longer consist of fund and virtual world enthusiasts but they are working people who do not have a time to live 2nd virtual life - the casual gamer was born.
MMO developers realized this shift in customer profile and responded to new market demand. The games were 'dumbed down', made more accessible, less time demanding.
Cash Shops are just an extension of the same trend. Instead of spending 30 USD for 2 months of grinding, I can click on the cash shop and get the desired item for the same money.
Current MMO gamers do not have time but money to spend.
You might not like my explanation, I might be wrong but that does not change anything about the fact that whole industry is moving towards cash shops and F2P.
So what do you expect CCP to do?
Sit there and do nothing? Insisting on no longer actual and ineffective business model? How long such game company could survive? A monument of past, lonely and forgotten, the sole beacon of P2P gaming in the ocean of F2P and cash shop games?
CCP nor Blizzard are successful because they tend to do nothing about what is happening around them.
Adapt or die, that is how business works and if you want to keep yourself in the business, you need to respond to trends and keep up with competition.
So now, what rational do you want to share?
This ^^
We demand that games have cash shops, when i say "We" I mean majority of gamers, not the few enthusiasts that come and visit MMORPG.com
If Bliz but a Celestial Steed in their cash shop and make $16mill in an hour (or what ever it was)then what do you expect other Producers to do?!?
There are ways of doing it though and as far as i see CCP have stuck to the rules, which are, do not sell stuff that will make you uber, as far as i know CCP have introduced clothing, moncoles etc. Which up until last month did not even exisit in the game as there was no possibilty of use clothing.
And now that it does it cost $20 for an eye piece, so that you look good in a game, it has ZERO effect on how you play the game, they even introduce a new currency so that it does affect the market directly and people get upset about it, WTF? Don't be a dog in a manger already, if you don't like then don't buy it, your choice, it is a free world after all.
Time is money, some have more time to grind, others have more money to spend on thier entertainment. At the moment in EVE you CAN BUY ships with real life money so why there is such an up roar about buying a silly monocle is simply beyond my and actual funny, baby throw toys out of basket, funny, is what I am talking about!
Let me spell it out for you. Eve is an economy, people make ships--->people sell the ships ---> people buy the ships. Now as it is now people buy plex and put it on the in-game market, selling it for 300mil or so, they get their isk, they buy a ship. Using plex doesn't affect the in-game economy in any way except, people can buy ships if they have enough isk. So, if you introduce ships into a cash shop, you are basically removing the need for the people who make the ships. Blueprints don't matter, skills to make the ships don't matter and basically the whole industrial sector of EvE is just made redundant. There is no need to mine, no need to buy minerals, just go to the cash shop, buy a hundred dreadnaughts for your fleet and you're good to go. That is not EvE anymore, that is an average Asian F2P MMO.
Take away empire space and you get - Darkfall, Mortal Online or Perpetuum. Nothing new there. Shallow PVP games.
But Empire space is what turns otherwise uninteresting PVP game into unique, robust, rich and living, breathing world.
please elaborate on this part, i fail to see how high sec pvp is more interesting than 0.0 pvp
High Sec vs. Low Sec vs. 0.0 PVP
High Sec - You paid to pvp through war dec's
Low Sec - You will pay to pvp through loss of sec status
0.0 - You dont pay till you loose
0.0 you pay with: if you loose you loose
sovreignty loss, capital ship yard loss, control tower loss, large fleet loss, system upgrade loss, possibly ALL ASSETS within a station.
high sec you pay isk to wardec weaker corps which you will enjoy killing their ships and miners, the rest is grieffing suicide ganking and can flipping, i hardly call that pvp.
low sec, pirating pvp which is fine, its what you would expect from a outer rim civilisation. no problems there, xcept the part that the rewards for the risk are not well balanced
0.0, you can do so much more than simply killing people for the sake of killing people. you want to block their supply routes, you want to steal their supplies too, you want to cripple their mining operations limiting their growing capabilities, pvp involves more than simply killing the reds that come into your system.
There isn't anything wrong with NEX and vast majority of EVE players are and will be fine with cash shop.
Deal with it.
Do you perhaps work for CCP, or someone else in the industry that supports cash shops? I just don't understand how any rational player would support this idea without being someone who likes to take advantage of people. Cash shops encourage you to buy your way through the game where you would usually work and put some actual effort torwards your goals, which by the way, is the point of gaming.
You say that "the vast majority of EVE players are and will be fine with cash shop" like it was their idea, and that's something they want. What may seem small and trivial enough now will explode into a huge exploit for profit when given a little love.
"Sure, cash shops are okay, I guess."
FIVE YEARS LATER...
Subscription-based games with mandatory, needed items in cash shops as well as "premium services" not available to standard subscription plans. Games are not decided by skill or effort anymore, but rather who has the biggest wallet.
"Oh God, what have we done?"
It's literally like some of you people are saying, "Yes government, we love taxes. Give us taxes! In fact, our taxes aren't high enough. I vote you increase them for the benefit of our economy."
I thought the point of gaming was to have fun...I already have a job, so that covers the whole work thing...
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
I just don't understand how any rational player would support this idea
How? Simple.
MMO were launched when internet wasn't as widely spread and online entertainment market was very small and the customers were norrowly profiled - mostly funs and enthusiasts of virtual worlds.
As the technology improved and internet become available to much larger audience, the online entertainment started to growth rapidly and as well the customer profile has changed. The MMO gamers no longer consist of fund and virtual world enthusiasts but they are working people who do not have a time to live 2nd virtual life - the casual gamer was born.
MMO developers realized this shift in customer profile and responded to new market demand. The games were 'dumbed down', made more accessible, less time demanding.
Cash Shops are just an extension of the same trend. Instead of spending 30 USD for 2 months of grinding, I can click on the cash shop and get the desired item for the same money.
Current MMO gamers do not have time but money to spend.
You might not like my explanation, I might be wrong but that does not change anything about the fact that whole industry is moving towards cash shops and F2P.
So what do you expect CCP to do?
Sit there and do nothing? Insisting on no longer actual and ineffective business model? How long such game company could survive? A monument of past, lonely and forgotten, the sole beacon of P2P gaming in the ocean of F2P and cash shop games?
CCP nor Blizzard are successful because they tend to do nothing about what is happening around them.
Adapt or die, that is how business works and if you want to keep yourself in the business, you need to respond to trends and keep up with competition.
So now, what rational do you want to share?
This ^^
We demand that games have cash shops, when i say "We" I mean majority of gamers, not the few enthusiasts that come and visit MMORPG.com
If Bliz but a Celestial Steed in their cash shop and make $16mill in an hour (or what ever it was)then what do you expect other Producers to do?!?
There are ways of doing it though and as far as i see CCP have stuck to the rules, which are, do not sell stuff that will make you uber, as far as i know CCP have introduced clothing, moncoles etc. Which up until last month did not even exisit in the game as there was no possibilty of use clothing.
And now that it does it cost $20 for an eye piece, so that you look good in a game, it has ZERO effect on how you play the game, they even introduce a new currency so that it does affect the market directly and people get upset about it, WTF? Don't be a dog in a manger already, if you don't like then don't buy it, your choice, it is a free world after all.
Time is money, some have more time to grind, others have more money to spend on thier entertainment. At the moment in EVE you CAN BUY ships with real life money so why there is such an up roar about buying a silly monocle is simply beyond my and actual funny, baby throw toys out of basket, funny, is what I am talking about!
Let me spell it out for you. Eve is an economy, people make ships--->people sell the ships ---> people buy the ships. Now as it is now people buy plex and put it on the in-game market, selling it for 300mil or so, they get their isk, they buy a ship. Using plex doesn't affect the in-game economy in any way except, people can buy ships if they have enough isk. So, if you introduce ships into a cash shop, you are basically removing the need for the people who make the ships. Blueprints don't matter, skills to make the ships don't matter and basically the whole industrial sector of EvE is just made redundant. There is no need to mine, no need to buy minerals, just go to the cash shop, buy a hundred dreadnaughts for your fleet and you're good to go. That is not EvE anymore, that is an average Asian F2P MMO.
Let him talk he stated he want to have sub+cash shop in his mmos, he think its a great idea... Even though he is totally off with his conception of cash shop because spending his money in any cash shop won't give him anything, it just give him what he won't have anyway without his money, the cash shop games are such uber grind on purpose so that you will have to buy, its not anything similar to a subing game. If subbing game are grindy too its nowere even close, the grind is meant to have a good aspect, like give a sense of acheivement, have a better economy blablabla. The grind in cash shop mmo is their to make you buy period, without cash shop item you will never experience the "end" game. But it seam this guy have a dream instead of experience to back him up.
Originally posted by Requiamer Even though he is totally off with his conception of cash shop because spending his money in any cash shop won't give him anything, it just give him what he won't have anyway without his money, the cash shop games are such uber grind on purpose so that you will have to buy, its not anything similar to a subing game. If subbing game are grindy too its nowere even close, the grind is meant to have a good aspect, like give a sense of acheivement, have a better economy blablabla. The grind in cash shop mmo is their to make you buy period, without cash shop item you will never experience the "end" game.
Except you are wrong in one essential thing.
Cash shop games are not grindy because they have a cash shop but because they are F2P.
Sub + cash shop is like playing LOTRO, EQeX or DDO with premium account.
Sandbox, persistent universe, player driven economy, high death penalty, PVP…….It seems as if I remember that from somewhere, I just can't remember where.
Your point? Be specific.
These are the things that have made EVE one the few games to see consistent growth since day one. You know as well as I do, that for years this was how the game was described. CCP is moving away from this model. They want their game to be described in a new way, a way that expands the player base and brings in new revenue.
The old model is proven. It provides slow consistent growth and keeps a small percentage of players for a very long time.
You look at games that have tried to steal players from traditionally successful games: WAR, LOTR, STO. There are other high profile games you could add to this list, all of them soaring above EVE………These games saw large spikes then crashed.
People talk about trends and the changing face of gaming……BS
There is only one trend. WOW dominates and three, maybe four, games do very well. For a long time people also added to this, “EVE shows consistent growth as a niche game because it doesn’t go head to head with other game.”
Specifically, I’m saying, if this game wants to stop the exodus of veteran player, and end expansion disasters like Incarna, they need to start selling the game the way they once did.
Sub + cash shop is like playing LOTRO, EQeX or DDO with premium account.
LOL, great analogy.
And EVE out sold all of these games without a cash shop, and when they add one people hit the door. A Cash shop just means the company is broke, weak and doesn't care about their game. CCP used to care, and had a better game for it, now they are getting old, they are say in Meh.......lets just do what all the loser companies do.
I am unsure if it holds true in EVE, but I always found the summer months to have less players online. When winter hits, those outside enjoying the summer once again need something to do.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
There isn't anything wrong with NEX and vast majority of EVE players are and will be fine with cash shop.
Deal with it.
Do you perhaps work for CCP, or someone else in the industry that supports cash shops? I just don't understand how any rational player would support this idea without being someone who likes to take advantage of people. Cash shops encourage you to buy your way through the game where you would usually work and put some actual effort torwards your goals, which by the way, is the point of gaming.
You say that "the vast majority of EVE players are and will be fine with cash shop" like it was their idea, and that's something they want. What may seem small and trivial enough now will explode into a huge exploit for profit when given a little love.
"Sure, cash shops are okay, I guess."
FIVE YEARS LATER...
Subscription-based games with mandatory, needed items in cash shops as well as "premium services" not available to standard subscription plans. Games are not decided by skill or effort anymore, but rather who has the biggest wallet.
"Oh God, what have we done?"
It's literally like some of you people are saying, "Yes government, we love taxes. Give us taxes! In fact, our taxes aren't high enough. I vote you increase them for the benefit of our economy."
I thought the point of gaming was to have fun...I already have a job, so that covers the whole work thing...
Currently EVE has various "leagues" of players that operate as teams. Cooperation and competition going hand in hand. Similar to softball and the like.
The ability to bribe the ref to move the bases closer, to allow you special high-powered bats, nerf balls for your opponents to hit, etc...
How much "game" is left in a game when $$$ rule it?
So if you want to play a game where you start, work your way up through the leagues and must maintain your position based upon abilities and efforts invested - old eve was for you and it'll be around for a short while longer. I'd advise against this game if someone is starting out and looking at this style of play.
If you want the ability to pay $$$ to gain advantages - the up and coming eve will be a perfect fit. There are plenty of Paris Hilton wannabe types in the game that feel $$$ should grant them everything they desire. This is the case in many games and it is what many people see coming to EVE.
As stated it isn't a "sport" nor "balanced game environment" - it's "a business" with consumers and the fodder provider known as CCP. More products to consume, that cost less to make/provide - not better, just more to spend on.
-------------------------
The current PLEX model has 3 parties involved: GTC buyer -> PLEX buyer -> CCP providing services to the person who uses the PLEX to claim the 30-days of play time.
The new model they are going for, elimintes the middle man AND the 30-days of play-time obligation - for pixels: NOT bandwidth, NOT support, NOT anything but the pixels.
This also removes what many call an "ISK sink" - PLEX on the market has a transaction fee associated with it.
So on and so forth...
-------------------------
I could go through other models and descrbe things but the analogies of games and the like just get old after a while.
Some people feel that $$$ should rule everything - from who dates whom to who wins baseball games around to who should have what advantages in video games. "If I spend enough money, I should..."
No amount of discussion, debate nor argument will ever change those mindsets. They are too entrenched in consumerism to ever think beyond $$$ in ANY way and they are as perplexed and annoyed at any attitudes that don't fit their way of thinking as their counter parts.
I am unsure if it holds true in EVE, but I always found the summer months to have less players online. When winter hits, those outside enjoying the summer once again need something to do.
depends a lot on time of day too, im still seeing over 50,000 when i log in at peak time UK... though midday just after downtime, the numbers are about 20 -30,000 im guessing its because people at work etc.. UK/Euro zone, and the Americans are thinking about having breakfast, if their awake
not sure why this subject is being dragged out, tbh, the whole isk/aur thing .. was like.. last month.. not really sure what all the fuss was about in the end.. certainly didnt see any changes in game
There isn't anything wrong with NEX and vast majority of EVE players are and will be fine with cash shop.
Deal with it.
Do you perhaps work for CCP, or someone else in the industry that supports cash shops? I just don't understand how any rational player would support this idea without being someone who likes to take advantage of people. Cash shops encourage you to buy your way through the game where you would usually work and put some actual effort torwards your goals, which by the way, is the point of gaming.
You say that "the vast majority of EVE players are and will be fine with cash shop" like it was their idea, and that's something they want. What may seem small and trivial enough now will explode into a huge exploit for profit when given a little love.
"Sure, cash shops are okay, I guess."
FIVE YEARS LATER...
Subscription-based games with mandatory, needed items in cash shops as well as "premium services" not available to standard subscription plans. Games are not decided by skill or effort anymore, but rather who has the biggest wallet.
"Oh God, what have we done?"
It's literally like some of you people are saying, "Yes government, we love taxes. Give us taxes! In fact, our taxes aren't high enough. I vote you increase them for the benefit of our economy."
I thought the point of gaming was to have fun...I already have a job, so that covers the whole work thing...
Currently EVE has various "leagues" of players that operate as teams. Cooperation and competition going hand in hand. Similar to softball and the like.
The ability to bribe the ref to move the bases closer, to allow you special high-powered bats, nerf balls for your opponents to hit, etc...
How much "game" is left in a game when $$$ rule it?
So if you want to play a game where you start, work your way up through the leagues and must maintain your position based upon abilities and efforts invested - old eve was for you and it'll be around for a short while longer. I'd advise against this game if someone is starting out and looking at this style of play.
If you want the ability to pay $$$ to gain advantages - the up and coming eve will be a perfect fit. There are plenty of Paris Hilton wannabe types in the game that feel $$$ should grant them everything they desire. This is the case in many games and it is what many people see coming to EVE.
As stated it isn't a "sport" nor "balanced game environment" - it's "a business" with consumers and the fodder provider known as CCP. More products to consume, that cost less to make/provide - not better, just more to spend on.
-------------------------
The current PLEX model has 3 parties involved: GTC buyer -> PLEX buyer -> CCP providing services to the person who uses the PLEX to claim the 30-days of play time.
The new model they are going for, elimintes the middle man AND the 30-days of play-time obligation - for pixels: NOT bandwidth, NOT support, NOT anything but the pixels.
This also removes what many call an "ISK sink" - PLEX on the market has a transaction fee associated with it.
So on and so forth...
-------------------------
I could go through other models and descrbe things but the analogies of games and the like just get old after a while.
Some people feel that $$$ should rule everything - from who dates whom to who wins baseball games around to who should have what advantages in video games. "If I spend enough money, I should..."
No amount of discussion, debate nor argument will ever change those mindsets. They are too entrenched in consumerism to ever think beyond $$$ in ANY way and they are as perplexed and annoyed at any attitudes that don't fit their way of thinking as their counter parts.
It's just a waste of time to try.
Apparently the only waste of time is trying to explain to people that at the moment there are NO "items of power" in the EVE cash shop. Will there ever be a day when we see some in there? Maybe, but until then no reason to worry so about it. Play and have fun, or don't.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Normally for a while and at the beginning of Incarna i was seeing over 45K players as i login into the game.
since the Rage of the leaked newsletter this amount is slowly going down..
I am seeing about and between 21k to 25K players online.
not gonna make anything from this as yet.
but i am hoping that maybe CCP will see that they don't need the STORE
and the players as a whole don't want any of the so call EYE pieces or the Clothes
i logged in last night and saw 42k playing so i dont think people are leaving i just think people are making something out of nothing.
must admit has a point about the clothing thing.. Eve isnt really about that... but.. i guess its the players themselves that will decide if they want it or not.. me .. i don't have isk to spare for frivolous items..
It is pretty simple, EVE used to be different, it is slowly becomming less different.
Once it is the same cash shop instant gratification game as everything out there, it loses it's appeal.
CCP is just testing how far they can go, because they are bleeding cash since they have too many expensive projects running at the same time. The EVE community drew the line ( not a vocal minority ), and they drew it further than what I like ( no cash shop period ), but I may be able to live with it, however currently I am only running my skills on my main ( 3 month plan ), and my alt will run out soon.
If the mmorpg genre as a whole is moving in this cash shop instant gratification direction, then so be it, I'll find another hobby.
Currently playing Age of Wonders Shadowmagic ( played AoW2, but never SM ) , much fun 9€ on steam, so for 9€ I have a complete and awesome game that I can play for at least a month. How much were those monocles again?
Oh and I think it is time to go back to my regular boardgame sessions on friday, been too long since I played some Powergrid or Puerto Rico.
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site : http://mmodata.blogspot.be/ Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
I for one would welcome the winding down of Eve. It is old and getting stale and if it loses alot of people it may give the opportunity for a triple A space sci-fi MMORPG to be developed.
I for one would welcome the winding down of Eve. It is old and getting stale and if it loses alot of people it may give the opportunity for a triple A space sci-fi MMORPG to be developed.
You dont need to wind Eve down for the opportunity for another. There is only one so there is a lot of room for another few at the very least., after all there is room for 100s of Fantasy based MMOs.
And why wind down a perfectly good game to give an opportunity for a game that may be carp, a bird in a hand and all that....
Stale? It has just introduced Walking on stations, and soon to intergrate that with DUST the fps, how is that Stale? CCP are not simply resting on their success, they are pushing forward....
Anyways last night, Sunday night, which normally is the peak time for Eve, I saw, at onepoint, approx 47,000 people online.
At some point yesterday (Sunday), there were 48K people on. I've seen similar numbers over the past work. I'm not worried about EVE, at all.
The people who are proclaiming that "EVE is dying" or "EVE is headed in the wrong direction so I'm leaving" are human fire alarms and drama queens who can't adapt to the potential modifications of a business model. My advice to these people:
1) chill out
2) realize that EVE is a game *and* a business
3) enjoy the game and stop overthinking it
4) stop looking back and wailing about how the game has changed. Of course it has changed over the period of 8 years--so have you. I don't see CCP wailing and gnashing their teeth about how much the people who play their game have changed over time. Rather than waxing nostalgic and hyperbolizing like some of their customers do, CCP is actively seeking ways to keep EVE going for another 10 years. Sure, some of their decisions are dubious, but they're trying, unlike their entitlement-kiddy players.
They can adjust a game all day, but they can't help the issue between the keyboard and the chair. Played: UO, DAoC, AC, WoW, EVE, TR, WAR, Aion, Rift, SWTOR, GW2, TSW, ESO, Elite:D Play EVE for free for 21 days
Comments
Your point? Be specific.
So CCP was built on being different? How so? It's a pvp game with a player run market and "safe spots" for industrialists/traders/mission runners. How is that so being built to be different? Other games with pvp elements contain the same mechanics. What EVE is is a NICHE game.
EVE became a niche game due to certain factors:
First off it's sci-fi in a market where fantasy MMO games dominate;
The market is mostly player driven (but there are now other games with player driven markets out there);
A higher learning curve then other MMOs that appealed to players that wanted a bit more challenge.
And thats about it.
CCP wants to make money like everyone else. They have bills to pay and they want to diversify and make other games. Anything wrong with that? I dont see anything wrong with it. For their niche player base it will be an adjustment. If they dont like it they can run around as a robot in Perp and take their money elsewhere. Cash shop is coming to Perp anyway.
This is where the industry is going. Cash shops, MTs, ingame items. Dont like it, dont buy them. I too hope they are only vanity items but if CCP has to make a move towards more substantial items that may effect gameplay, I guess Ill just buy one of them
Current Games: WOW, EVE Online
please elaborate on this part, i fail to see how high sec pvp is more interesting than 0.0 pvp
High Sec vs. Low Sec vs. 0.0 PVP
High Sec - You paid to pvp through war dec's
Low Sec - You will pay to pvp through loss of sec status
0.0 - You dont pay till you loose
Let me spell it out for you. Eve is an economy, people make ships--->people sell the ships ---> people buy the ships. Now as it is now people buy plex and put it on the in-game market, selling it for 300mil or so, they get their isk, they buy a ship. Using plex doesn't affect the in-game economy in any way except, people can buy ships if they have enough isk. So, if you introduce ships into a cash shop, you are basically removing the need for the people who make the ships. Blueprints don't matter, skills to make the ships don't matter and basically the whole industrial sector of EvE is just made redundant. There is no need to mine, no need to buy minerals, just go to the cash shop, buy a hundred dreadnaughts for your fleet and you're good to go. That is not EvE anymore, that is an average Asian F2P MMO.
This is not a game.
0.0 you pay with: if you loose you loose
sovreignty loss, capital ship yard loss, control tower loss, large fleet loss, system upgrade loss, possibly ALL ASSETS within a station.
high sec you pay isk to wardec weaker corps which you will enjoy killing their ships and miners, the rest is grieffing suicide ganking and can flipping, i hardly call that pvp.
low sec, pirating pvp which is fine, its what you would expect from a outer rim civilisation. no problems there, xcept the part that the rewards for the risk are not well balanced
0.0, you can do so much more than simply killing people for the sake of killing people. you want to block their supply routes, you want to steal their supplies too, you want to cripple their mining operations limiting their growing capabilities, pvp involves more than simply killing the reds that come into your system.
What for? I was not talking about PVP at all.
I thought the point of gaming was to have fun...I already have a job, so that covers the whole work thing...
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Let him talk he stated he want to have sub+cash shop in his mmos, he think its a great idea... Even though he is totally off with his conception of cash shop because spending his money in any cash shop won't give him anything, it just give him what he won't have anyway without his money, the cash shop games are such uber grind on purpose so that you will have to buy, its not anything similar to a subing game. If subbing game are grindy too its nowere even close, the grind is meant to have a good aspect, like give a sense of acheivement, have a better economy blablabla. The grind in cash shop mmo is their to make you buy period, without cash shop item you will never experience the "end" game. But it seam this guy have a dream instead of experience to back him up.
Except you are wrong in one essential thing.
Cash shop games are not grindy because they have a cash shop but because they are F2P.
Sub + cash shop is like playing LOTRO, EQeX or DDO with premium account.
These are the things that have made EVE one the few games to see consistent growth since day one. You know as well as I do, that for years this was how the game was described. CCP is moving away from this model. They want their game to be described in a new way, a way that expands the player base and brings in new revenue.
The old model is proven. It provides slow consistent growth and keeps a small percentage of players for a very long time.
You look at games that have tried to steal players from traditionally successful games: WAR, LOTR, STO. There are other high profile games you could add to this list, all of them soaring above EVE………These games saw large spikes then crashed.
People talk about trends and the changing face of gaming……BS
There is only one trend. WOW dominates and three, maybe four, games do very well. For a long time people also added to this, “EVE shows consistent growth as a niche game because it doesn’t go head to head with other game.”
Specifically, I’m saying, if this game wants to stop the exodus of veteran player, and end expansion disasters like Incarna, they need to start selling the game the way they once did.
Again, can you be specific how EVE cash shop is affecting all the things you listed?
LOL, great analogy.
Keep on rockin'!
And EVE out sold all of these games without a cash shop, and when they add one people hit the door. A Cash shop just means the company is broke, weak and doesn't care about their game. CCP used to care, and had a better game for it, now they are getting old, they are say in Meh.......lets just do what all the loser companies do.
This is your changing face of gaming.
I am unsure if it holds true in EVE, but I always found the summer months to have less players online. When winter hits, those outside enjoying the summer once again need something to do.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Currently EVE has various "leagues" of players that operate as teams. Cooperation and competition going hand in hand. Similar to softball and the like.
The ability to bribe the ref to move the bases closer, to allow you special high-powered bats, nerf balls for your opponents to hit, etc...
How much "game" is left in a game when $$$ rule it?
So if you want to play a game where you start, work your way up through the leagues and must maintain your position based upon abilities and efforts invested - old eve was for you and it'll be around for a short while longer. I'd advise against this game if someone is starting out and looking at this style of play.
If you want the ability to pay $$$ to gain advantages - the up and coming eve will be a perfect fit. There are plenty of Paris Hilton wannabe types in the game that feel $$$ should grant them everything they desire. This is the case in many games and it is what many people see coming to EVE.
As stated it isn't a "sport" nor "balanced game environment" - it's "a business" with consumers and the fodder provider known as CCP. More products to consume, that cost less to make/provide - not better, just more to spend on.
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The current PLEX model has 3 parties involved: GTC buyer -> PLEX buyer -> CCP providing services to the person who uses the PLEX to claim the 30-days of play time.
The new model they are going for, elimintes the middle man AND the 30-days of play-time obligation - for pixels: NOT bandwidth, NOT support, NOT anything but the pixels.
This also removes what many call an "ISK sink" - PLEX on the market has a transaction fee associated with it.
So on and so forth...
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I could go through other models and descrbe things but the analogies of games and the like just get old after a while.
Some people feel that $$$ should rule everything - from who dates whom to who wins baseball games around to who should have what advantages in video games. "If I spend enough money, I should..."
No amount of discussion, debate nor argument will ever change those mindsets. They are too entrenched in consumerism to ever think beyond $$$ in ANY way and they are as perplexed and annoyed at any attitudes that don't fit their way of thinking as their counter parts.
It's just a waste of time to try.
i logged in last night and saw 42k playing so i dont think people are leaving i just think people are making something out of nothing.
depends a lot on time of day too, im still seeing over 50,000 when i log in at peak time UK... though midday just after downtime, the numbers are about 20 -30,000 im guessing its because people at work etc.. UK/Euro zone, and the Americans are thinking about having breakfast, if their awake
not sure why this subject is being dragged out, tbh, the whole isk/aur thing .. was like.. last month.. not really sure what all the fuss was about in the end.. certainly didnt see any changes in game
Apparently the only waste of time is trying to explain to people that at the moment there are NO "items of power" in the EVE cash shop. Will there ever be a day when we see some in there? Maybe, but until then no reason to worry so about it. Play and have fun, or don't.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
must admit has a point about the clothing thing.. Eve isnt really about that... but.. i guess its the players themselves that will decide if they want it or not.. me .. i don't have isk to spare for frivolous items..
It is pretty simple, EVE used to be different, it is slowly becomming less different.
Once it is the same cash shop instant gratification game as everything out there, it loses it's appeal.
CCP is just testing how far they can go, because they are bleeding cash since they have too many expensive projects running at the same time. The EVE community drew the line ( not a vocal minority ), and they drew it further than what I like ( no cash shop period ), but I may be able to live with it, however currently I am only running my skills on my main ( 3 month plan ), and my alt will run out soon.
If the mmorpg genre as a whole is moving in this cash shop instant gratification direction, then so be it, I'll find another hobby.
Currently playing Age of Wonders Shadowmagic ( played AoW2, but never SM ) , much fun
9€ on steam, so for 9€ I have a complete and awesome game that I can play for at least a month. How much were those monocles again? 
Oh and I think it is time to go back to my regular boardgame sessions on friday, been too long since I played some Powergrid or Puerto Rico.
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
http://mmodata.blogspot.be/
Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
I for one would welcome the winding down of Eve. It is old and getting stale and if it loses alot of people it may give the opportunity for a triple A space sci-fi MMORPG to be developed.
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You dont need to wind Eve down for the opportunity for another. There is only one so there is a lot of room for another few at the very least., after all there is room for 100s of Fantasy based MMOs.
And why wind down a perfectly good game to give an opportunity for a game that may be carp, a bird in a hand and all that....
Stale? It has just introduced Walking on stations, and soon to intergrate that with DUST the fps, how is that Stale? CCP are not simply resting on their success, they are pushing forward....
Anyways last night, Sunday night, which normally is the peak time for Eve, I saw, at onepoint, approx 47,000 people online.
op:it is summer!unless you live in a 365 day of winter country,most arent gaming all that much in summer.wait in september lol
At some point yesterday (Sunday), there were 48K people on. I've seen similar numbers over the past work. I'm not worried about EVE, at all.
The people who are proclaiming that "EVE is dying" or "EVE is headed in the wrong direction so I'm leaving" are human fire alarms and drama queens who can't adapt to the potential modifications of a business model. My advice to these people:
1) chill out
2) realize that EVE is a game *and* a business
3) enjoy the game and stop overthinking it
4) stop looking back and wailing about how the game has changed. Of course it has changed over the period of 8 years--so have you. I don't see CCP wailing and gnashing their teeth about how much the people who play their game have changed over time. Rather than waxing nostalgic and hyperbolizing like some of their customers do, CCP is actively seeking ways to keep EVE going for another 10 years. Sure, some of their decisions are dubious, but they're trying, unlike their entitlement-kiddy players.
They can adjust a game all day, but they can't help the issue between the keyboard and the chair.
Played: UO, DAoC, AC, WoW, EVE, TR, WAR, Aion, Rift, SWTOR, GW2, TSW, ESO, Elite:D
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