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Cooldown and hotbar gameplay
Castillle
Member UncommonPosts: 2,679
Do you enjoy this type of gameplay?
I remember raiding in WoW and Id have a bunch of addons to fix my hotbars and stuff and I mostly have a !@#$ton of skills that I rarely have to use and some things that I dont get to use unless something bad happens or something (which is ...rare)
Along with this is the seeing where you are but mostly staring at cooldowns and clicking/buttonpressing whatever you have to press. This is usually on some sort of rotation or sometimes just reactive when something happens then you go back to the rotation.
I thought it was ok for a bit. Then I got sick of it for the most part o.o
Edit :
Id also appreciate it if you guys who do like this type of gameplay can explain what aspects of it you find enjoyable so I can understand. This is because I always thought it was silly especially after playing RO (my first mmo).
In RO, you walk around and click and use the f1-f12 buttons to use skills. It was mostly autoattack except for healers and mages so you can pretty much type while killing... o.o
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Comments
I just want to comment on the part about WoW:
You seem to forget that WoW has many different gameplay elements.
Some elements apply to PvE, others apply to PvP, etc.
So some skills may be useless for PvE, but helpful in PvP, which is why its there.
I like having lots of skills. I played GW1, can couldnt stand the limited skills I could use. And most of the skills were boring anyway.
Edit:
Reading the bottom part, you want to explain. ok
Well The system is sort of like a TOOL BOX. I rather go into the tech shop with a box full of all the tools I may need, rather than just coming in there with a few tools.
in both situations I will have many useless tools, but it shows more when I have few tools to start with. The Balance issues show more in smaller scale.
Like in WoW, the 2v2 was harder to balance than the 5v5. Smaller the scale, the earlier balance issues show
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Well, I'm not sure if you're referring to the Global Cooldown as part of your 'hotbar and cooldown' gameplay complaints or if it's generally a frustration with customizable UI with player-augmented API code.
Regarding Global Cooldowns, they are pretty much mandatory for any MMO because otherwise you're spamming a button with no cd in order to hit it faster than the other guy to maximize your damage. This gameplay breaks keyboards and is surprisingly very physical. It was also rejected over 10 years ago. The Global Cooldown prevents the game from being a total button masher.
Regarding customizable UIs occasionally having 'buggy' coding, you get what you pay for.. which is to say.. nothing. Players build addons for games.. not the developers. The developers provide a framework for the players to customize, but the players aren't always the best at using that framework.
Regarding 'rotations', they ironically create interesting gameplay. I much prefer 'rotational' gameplay to simple autoattack spam. Think about it. If you had a button that did the most damage for you or the most heals, and was instant cast with no cooldown, you'd hit that button to the exclusion of all other buttons, effectively make it a boring autoattack that you have to press constantly to make work.
Rotational gameplay makes sense because it makes the game more challenging than a game without cooldowns and proper rotations. You want to have an incentive to hit buttons other than your most powerful ones.
Currently Watching: TSW. << Very Eager for a Beta invite. Have experience with Beta Testing.
Not personally a big fan of raiding or current pve endgame mmo philosophy. Nothing wrong with it, I just sort of burnt out on it.
Hardcore raider in wow from Launch to.. about 7 months ago.
Currently Playing: Champions Online.
Not really. You can solve it as well with a better cost for skills.
GW2 uses this for their thief, you can spam your attacks (but not your elite skill) until you run out of your points if you want to, or you can try to use those skills as effective as possible instead.
As long as the cost is balanced and pretty high it isn't a problem even if it would annoy people who like to press 30 different skills in a certain order.
The global cooldowns is just one way too handle a certain thing. Of course few MMOs allows you to attack more than once a second no matter what mechanics they use to stop you from killing your hand and keyboard, but that is attackspeed, not cooldown.
There are several ways to handle exactly the same thing, just like levels isn't the only way to simulate that the character gains experience with time. MMOs however like to use the same mechanics as everyone else so most use well known ideas.
Hmm..so its a tools thing? And you found Guild Wars unfavorable because you had a limited set of tools and most of the skills were boring? Can you tell me what made the skills boring? I never played GW1 xD
I guess I could understand it from a tools perspective
Edit :
After much thought I never really meant it to be cooldown and hotbar but omre or less just...excessive hotbar. But the effect of having a large amount of hotbars is to watch the grayed out thing color itself little by little. o.o
So yah its mostly just about excessive hotbars and not really the cooldowns. I find the cooldown animations to look pretty nice though...lol
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its actually 2 different topics o.o
The other one is discussing changes and their thoughts on diversifying changes and this one is to ask about what people find appealing with this style of gameplay.
On another note, is another appeal easy access to the skills or something?
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My personal experiences/preferences:
I come from a FFXI background first, whose combat, for the most part, I found the combat to be extremely boring. As a ranger, it was essentially all auto attack, followed by a predictable weapon skill once every 30 seconds or so, and the Sharpshot + Barrage combo once every 5 minutes. The only other skills I can remember weren't even useful in combat. I found myself struggling to invent ways to make combat more exciting: macroing in and out ranged accuracy earrings before and after Sidewinders/Slug Shots, swapping between the crossbow and longbow after weapon skills to debuff with dark bolts or interrupt with sleep bolts, and swapping in expensive ammo after using my 5 minute cooldown that gives me one free shot. The only thing that kept FFXI's combat interesting was the teamwork component of chaining your weapon skills together. Without that there's NO way I would have grinded 2 level 75s.
WoW was my intro to loaded actionbars and spammy abilities in an MMO. Honestly, I found it incredibly engaging for a very long time. My first class and my all time true love was the druid. I utilized every aspect of the class's diversity. I'd pull with my 2 cast time ranged spells. Then I'd root the mob in place, dot it, and cast once more. Casting HoTs on myself, I'd leap forward (yes, jumping was a huge addition for me) and, in one fluid motion, shapeshift into catform and proceed to claw and maim my enemy to pieces. That's just one tiny example using about 9 abilities. Just as a druid I used at least 15 more abilities on a very consistent basis. Add the fact that the other classes played in a similarly fast paced style but in completely distinct and unique ways, and I was very entertained for years.
If I have a gripe against spammy actionbar style MMOs, it's simply because I'm burnt out with them. I had a difficult time getting into several other MMOs, including Aion, LotrO, WAR, and Rift, after/in-between WoW precisely because they have very similar combat. It wasn't until I played League of Legends, a game that isn't even an MMO, that I realized it's possible to have really engaging combat without having an overwhelming plethora of abilities at your disposal. Each LoL champion features 4 abilities + 2 summoner spells. Other than that, it's auto attack and strategic positioning. Deciding when to strike, then executing your ability combos at precisely the right time is extremely fun and rewarding in LoL.
It's for that reason that I'm really optimistic about GW2's combat. While I understand you will have dozens of abilities to choose from when customizing your character, at any given time it seems like you will have fewer, more important abilities to utilize. This often makes for more compelling mid-fight decisions, and some powerful moments, unlike a 10 minute long fight of spamming the same 1112311123 rotation. Moreover, my favorite LoL champion is Nidalee. She's a shapeshifter. She has 3 human form abilities and 3 cougar form abilities, effecitvely giving her 7 (including the act of shapeshifting, which is undoubtedly a very active, engaging ability in itself). GW2 seems like it will feature this same mechanic in every single class in the form of weapon swapping. Essentially you will have abilities 1-5, press another key to swap weapons, then have a new set of abilities on the 1-5 keys. This also conserves keyboard space, which REALLY makes the combat feel more fluid. One of the major problems of WoW style combat is that you can't possibly access 30+ abilities in the blink of an eye with keybinds. Even the best players might use 1-5, q, e, r, t, f, z, x, c, v, alt+1-5, and they still wouldn't have everything bound. Even of the best players, VERY few (maybe professional piano players?) could instantly access all of those keys without messing up occasionally.
Anyway, it's definitely time to end this longwinded post that nobody is going to read. So I'll cut it off here. I have my own concept ideas for what would be, in my opinion, an extremely fun MMO combat system, but that would be another post entirely
If you're able to type while supposedly being involved in combat, then that's a seriously uninvolving combat system. I played classic EQ when it had that system (warriors, lol) and while it seemed good at the time, it was far too basic.
I despise WoW, but the ONE thing that is good about the game is it's fluid combat system. There aren't a ridiculous amount of abilities (like RIFT, where you have to macro everything) except for warlocks perhaps. The combat is fast paced and fluid; every class has a number of tools and specialised abilities and it has the most involving and reactive combat of any MMO. Take this from a former glad / r1 competitor. Some of the abilities could be streamlined or merged perhaps (like how frost & fire ward were merged for mages at the start of Cata), but overall there are a large number of tools and abilities for every class to use and react to and that's the way it should be. In terms of PvP, there's a higher individual skill cap for an average class in WoW than there probably is for any other class in any other MMO. There's a reason WoW arena was / partially still is an eSport. The mobility that you're offered in that game also heavily contributes to how engaging or skilful the combat is (i.e. jumping a warrior's charge).
In my honest opinion that sort of system is great. Fast, involving, reactive & difficult - it's VERY difficult to reach the skill cap for any class.
I would rather have a system like FFXI had, where you built up power then unleashed it with an ability. And there wasn't a hotbar, which I loved, it was menu based, and it was set up to pre-select the menu you were most likely going to want. In combat you would open up the menu and it would automatically select job skills, one button down, you had weapon skills. I know the majority of others set up macros to do thier skills, but other than on things like SATA thief attacks, I just used the menu. After a month or so you get it memorized. I miss playing my corsair hehe. Roll macros were so much fun
Edit: I don't mind hotbars as much as I do cooldowns. Needing to use an ability ASAP, you keep mashing the button until it cooldowns stinks. Having limited resources to use abilities is a much better way to go, like FFXI (althought I do wish that TP was gained a little faster)
So with the info Im getting, you guys really liked the varied amount of tools you can use in combat is that right? And the way its handled with hotbars and cooldowns are nice and comfortable to use.
Some dont like the cooldowns and prefer the limited energy or cost of usage.
You like the fluidity of use this comes with.
So Im guessing the Inventory -> eqiup thing is a drag or something and interrupts the constant flow of combat is that right? So the hotbars and such are a way to make combat a lot more fluid while giving easy access to the tools you need.
Thus the hotkeys are a lot easier to reach even though the actual bars may obstruct the view a bit and clutter the interface.
I know a lot of people use alt, shift, ctrl or w/e triggers but those are more for ease of use as well right?
I think Im starting to understand peoples appeal with the system more.
As for RO being too simplistic, I actually didnt mind it. I was playing n hanging out with other people while grinding and just having fun o.o And yes you can chat while attacking or moving (one hand on keys with other hand on mouse moving) but you cant really type while spamming skills or something like that which you tend to do in emergencies or in pvp.
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I suppose that I found cooldown play to provide a particular type of tactical thinking to encounters and especially for working with a group. It compresses the sense of button mashing and dancing and replaces with remembering how the class works and developing a rhythum. As I generally play support classes and thus I'm often not in the midst of the fray, the tactical element suits me.
When I'm playing a blaster or melee class and it's my job to stay on top of the enemy and keep pummeling them the cooldown concept does start to get in my way. ξ
Cooldowns and hotbars are simply a method of taking the console system into an MMO. Skill in hand/eye co-drdination in a console has been moved to the more cerebral activity of an MMO. For example I am terrible at console/arcade games but fairly competant at MMO skill use. I believe that there are quite a few millions of people who are like me, in the same boat. Console players tend to be good at both. I am happy to a least be good at one.
I am going to buy and play SWTOR, TSW and GW2 and looking forward to all three. TSW has shown some attention toward your point (OP) and according to what I see now, will have 7 active hotbar icons and 7 passive, with the ability to exchange them with other skills you have earned (altho I doubt during combat). This seems to address your point about a multitude of on screen icons detracting from screen awareness. Might improve the on screen 'view' of UI favorably as well.
Cooldowns, singular - group - global, are simply a way of balancing and controlling the game combat into something less than a frantic rush to button mash. This adds to the more mental aspect of skill use, in itself a skill you learn as you get into the game. One more point. Console players buy a game, rush madly through to 'beat' it, play a few more times and then rush to buy the next new thing. Well and good, a great business model. However, a death knell for an MMO. All of which is just my opinion of course.
I really do not see where you are getting that conclusion. Hotbars are simply extensions of tool bars and standard GUI icons. There is nothing 'consolish' about them. In fact hotbars are really at their most useful if you have a mouse since otherwise they are just a menu.
To be honost I never used and most likely never will use any sort of addons in a MMORPG, if the game isn't good enough without addons then I don't feel the game wil be beter with addons, there is this gamers-pride that I want to play with what is given and not what I need to add to enhance or simplefy the experiance. But to each his/her own obviously.
Futhermore I hardly look at my hotbar, obvious will look at it when getting new skills/abilities, but after that and knowing which is a skill/ability with a cooldown then I memorize them and have no issue using them even when they have cooldowns, I mean how hard can it be? I rather look at the game world and the surroundings of my character then look at the UI.
Some games have the option to simply hide UI and when possible I will use that as often as possible, cause of course there are situation that I need more info on my screen like healthbar, but that's only needed when I know there are mulitble targets or the mob is much higher lvl'd then I am or when I am grouped.
I also feel there is a good reason why some skills/abilities have cooldown timers as they are often better skills/abilities then those without a cooldown timer.
But I am also the type of gamer that likes to challenge himself during gameplay, this means I want to use all sorts of skills/abilities and not just spam 1 till 4 that might have the über skills/abilities, as that makes gaming boring to me.
Keep in mind this was personal and each and every person has a different view on things that aslong it provides fun for them I can respect that, this is just my view and how I like to play.