Originally posted by MMO.Maverick Originally posted by popinjay
ArenaNet could run GW1 on low budget because the game had a easily repeatable formula with instances. There were not huge zones to worry about, nor were there constant and frequent requirements to updates early. Plus that game was built long ago for a much lower price, and ArenaNet was able to fund it by doing other things. Plus they sold six million copies of that game. As critics like to say GW1 isn't a mmo.. or at least they say that when it suits them, so models are different. ArenaNet also holds competitive tournaments that they work with other sponsors and that type of stuff generates income as well.
I don't think GW is a good comparison to put up when comparing RIFT financially because the ways they make money are totally different. Plus RIFT has at least two other projects in the works now that have to be paid for.. the deal with SyFy network to make a mmo and their own game End of Nations which is going to cost.
I don't think Trion has any revenue income stream other than RIFT at the moment because they only have one game on the market, which ArenaNet also didn't have to worry about, so paying for two games production while operating one doesn't really leave quite a bit of money monthly especially when you figure in taxes, expenses, building space, employee pay, etc.
Sorry, but you make little sense and I'm starting to think that you just hate/dislike Rift very much, so you'll just keep on making any argument something about putting Trion and Rift in as negative light as possible, even if it means making strange turns with the truth and logic Well, dislike Rift and Trion all you like for whatever weird reason, I think that GW is a perfectly good example of server costs and that server maintenance is only a small fraction per player per month of a sub. As for Arenanet not having to worry about anything, are you for real? Arenanet has only 1 game on the market and had huge costs of development for GW2 just like any other MMO developer. They literally said that everything depends on the success of GW2, they've invested everything in it, so...
I don't know, but to me after the constant negative posts of you with trying to portray Rift or Trion as bad as possible, it seems like you have Rift in your crosshairs and don't want Rift or Trion to be seen as successful. My advice, get over it. For the new studio on the scene as they are, they delivered a solid MMORPG, with a better launch and product than most of what we've seen in the past couple of years. It wasn't my kind of game, but what I heard from friends and read on forums, Rift left its players behind with a more satisfied and less embittered and disillusioned feeling than most of the other MMO's the past 5 years. Add to that close to a million sales and still a lot of sub revenues incoming, and I'd say that they did pretty good. imo. Yep, I hate RIFT so much that I have a six month sub. /boggle
Please try and keep it germaine to the discussion and less personal analysis, ok? It is going good so far. I promise not to do the same with you.
Trion has:
1. Rift. Currently out and has 38 'trial servers' no one can roll on. Offering sales every two weeks or so on deeply discounted subs and boxes. Giving players who left a mere one month ago a chance to come back for one whole week free. Implementing cross-shard features in their LFD system after saying they would only 'if absolutely necessary'.
2. Defiance: MMO in production. Not on the market.
3. End of Nations: RTS in production. Not on the market.
4. No other products earning revenue or income.
How do you propose they pay for all of that? Your speculation of them having plenty of money each month to keep all of this going is quite amazing. It's like you're saying all they have to do is pay for RIFT.
You are not taking into account ANY expenses whatsoever in your evaluations for things companies need daily, let alone those additional projects. As I said, corporate building space, employee salaries, insurances for products, taxes on earnings, expense accounts, server space/maintanence, and the list goes on. Their advertising bill alone for constant television spots like on G4TV and elsewhere have to be massive, and that's not counting the internet at all.
I'm simply showing you reality, but you're only mentioning flat income. You're like someone who says "I make $70,000 a year", and isn't counting where he lives, gas, food, clothes, etc. That simply makes no logical sense.
Not rooting for the game to 'fail'. Not saying game stinks (its okay). Not saying it will die in a year (it won't). But to plainly state simple facts is not hate or suspect. It's DISCUSSING a mmo, which is what the forums is about.
Originally posted by cybertrucker Actually RIFT announced in a recent patch like last week they had 1 million active accounts.
Active accounts don't mean people are playing or even subbed. Someone can be 'active' according to RIFT but already cancelled. They count people that can play as 'active', and given they sold a lot of three and six month subs.. that's probably a lot.
Please try and keep it germaine to the discussion and less personal analysis, ok? It is going good so far. I promise not to do the same with you.
Ok, fair enough
Trion has:
1. Rift. Currently out and has 38 'trial servers' no one can roll on. Offering sales every two weeks or so on deeply discounted subs and boxes. Giving players who left a mere one month ago a chance to come back for one whole week free. Implementing cross-shard features in their LFD system after saying they would only 'if absolutely necessary'.
2. Defiance: MMO in production. Not on the market.
3. End of Nations: RTS in production. Not on the market.
4. No other products earning revenue or income.
How do you propose they pay for all of that? Your speculation of them having plenty of money each month to keep all of this going is quite amazing. It's like you're saying all they have to do is pay for RIFT.
? The same way that ANet is doing with GW2, or that a Funcom did with AoC, part sales and revenues, part investor's money.
You are not taking into account ANY expenses whatsoever in your evaluations for things companies need daily, let alone those additional projects. As I said, corporate building space, employee salaries, insurances for products, taxes on earnings, expense accounts, server space/maintanence, and the list goes on. Their advertising bill alone for constant television spots like on G4TV and elsewhere have to be massive, and that's not counting the internet at all.
I'm simply showing you reality, but you're only mentioning flat income. You're like someone who says "I make $70,000 a year", and isn't counting where he lives, gas, food, clothes, etc. That simply makes no logical sense.
Sorry, but what makes you think that Trion is different from those other MMO companies that only have the money from their existing MMO to build further on? They have expenses, they have revenues, so what?
We were talking server maintenance costs here - initially - or let's expand it to 'operational costs' and those are a lot lower than the 15 dollar/month per player.
Which leaves them enough money for further development, for Rift and their other projects. In fact, I bet that they have more revenues from their MMO right now than ANet had in the past 4 years, and ANet had operational costs those past 4 years with no incoming revenues from subs at all, only additional sales of their budget priced games and a meager itemshop, to cover operational costs and development of GW2.
If companies like AoC and FC can do it, then Trion can as well.
To use your example, it's like saying "those dudes and those families are in the same position and are managing with only 40-50k a year, and they have been doing so for years. If they can do it, then with 70k should be possible too."
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
the game is actually thriving. Most of the servers are medium/high all the time. The servers that are "trial" have been low pop since teh game launched. Thats why they were made trial.
Sorry, but what makes you think that Trion is different from those other MMO companies that only have the money from their existing MMO to build further on? They have expenses, they have revenues, so what?
Trion has three existing projects, Rift, End of Nations and Defiance. None of these are paid for and only one is generating revenue at all.
Please name 'other companies' as you say with this kind of debtload after launching four months out.
I see you love to mention AoC, so let's look more in-depth at that company. (I hope Wiki is okay)
Products: The Longest Journey Anarchy Online Age of Conan Dreamfall Bloodline Champions (stopping here, too many to list)
Revenue (as of 2008): US$13.010 million (Q2 2008)
Operating income: US$7.191 million (Q2 2008)
Net income: US$5.819 million (Q2 2008)
Employees: 322
That's all the good news. Looks great with a profit, right? Then you get into August 2008 when they take serious hits. They are able to get out of problems because:
1. It's a public company around for 18 years, not a private one like Trion that can get capital easy
2. They have other things generating revenue even though their main project (AoC) takes hits. Trion cannot do that if RIFT takes hits which it is now.
ArenaNet is totally different than Trion and you should stop comparing them. ArenaNet is owned by NCSoft. Period.
ArenaNet is not a private company nor do they have to foot the bill of anything by themselves. NCSoft is a PUBLIC Korean based parent company which has easy access to government money if needed so does not have to pay for everything on it's own, like many of the asian gaming companies do which U.S. makers aren't able to get. Why do you think Trion is called an 'independant' company?
That is in addition to making probably the second biggest MMO after World of Warcraft which brings in revenue. Hmm.. what else does NCSoft own? Oh yeah.. some mmo called City of Heroes.
The worst company for you to compare vs Trion is NCSoft, which you are unwittingly doing.
ArenaNet could run GW1 on low budget because the game had a easily repeatable formula with instances. There were not huge zones to worry about, nor were there constant and frequent requirements to updates early. Plus that game was built long ago for a much lower price, and ArenaNet was able to fund it by doing other things.
Plus they sold six million copies of that game. As critics like to say GW1 isn't a mmo.. or at least they say that when it suits them, so models are different. ArenaNet also holds competitive tournaments that they work with other sponsors and that type of stuff generates income as well.
I don't think GW is a good comparison to put up when comparing RIFT financially because the ways they make money are totally different. Plus RIFT has at least two other projects in the works now that have to be paid for.. the deal with SyFy network to make a mmo and their own game End of Nations which is going to cost.
I don't think Trion has any revenue income stream other than RIFT at the moment because they only have one game on the market, which ArenaNet also didn't have to worry about, so paying for two games production while operating one doesn't really leave quite a bit of money monthly especially when you figure in taxes, expenses, building space, employee pay, etc.
Sorry, but you make little sense and I'm starting to think that you just hate/dislike Rift very much, so you'll just keep on making any argument something about putting Trion and Rift in as negative light as possible, even if it means making strange turns with the truth and logic
Well, dislike Rift and Trion all you like for whatever weird reason, I think that GW is a perfectly good example of server costs and that server maintenance is only a small fraction per player per month of a sub.
As for Arenanet not having to worry about anything, are you for real? Arenanet has only 1 game on the market and had huge costs of development for GW2 just like any other MMO developer. They literally said that everything depends on the success of GW2, they've invested everything in it, so...
I don't know, but to me after the constant negative posts of you with trying to portray Rift or Trion as bad as possible, it seems like you have Rift in your crosshairs and don't want Rift or Trion to be seen as successful. My advice, get over it.
For the new studio on the scene as they are, they delivered a solid MMORPG, with a better launch and product than most of what we've seen in the past couple of years. It wasn't my kind of game, but what I heard from friends and read on forums, Rift left its players behind with a more satisfied and less embittered and disillusioned feeling than most of the other MMO's the past 5 years. Add to that close to a million sales and still a lot of sub revenues incoming, and I'd say that they did pretty good. imo.
Yep, I hate RIFT so much that I have a six month sub. /boggle
Please try and keep it germaine to the discussion and less personal analysis, ok? It is going good so far. I promise not to do the same with you.
Trion has:
1. Rift. Currently out and has 38 'trial servers' no one can roll on. Offering sales every two weeks or so on deeply discounted subs and boxes. Giving players who left a mere one month ago a chance to come back for one whole week free. Implementing cross-shard features in their LFD system after saying they would only 'if absolutely necessary'.
2. Defiance: MMO in production. Not on the market.
3. End of Nations: RTS in production. Not on the market.
4. No other products earning revenue or income.
How do you propose they pay for all of that? Your speculation of them having plenty of money each month to keep all of this going is quite amazing. It's like you're saying all they have to do is pay for RIFT.
You are not taking into account ANY expenses whatsoever in your evaluations for things companies need daily, let alone those additional projects. As I said, corporate building space, employee salaries, insurances for products, taxes on earnings, expense accounts, server space/maintanence, and the list goes on. Their advertising bill alone for constant television spots like on G4TV and elsewhere have to be massive, and that's not counting the internet at all.
I'm simply showing you reality, but you're only mentioning flat income. You're like someone who says "I make $70,000 a year", and isn't counting where he lives, gas, food, clothes, etc. That simply makes no logical sense.
Not rooting for the game to 'fail'. Not saying game stinks (its okay). Not saying it will die in a year (it won't). But to plainly state simple facts is not hate or suspect. It's DISCUSSING a mmo, which is what the forums is about.
Not just the rosy side of one.
The money for Defiance and End of Nations is coming from investors period. They raised 200 million prelaunch for all three projects. The could have no revenue from subs in Rift and it wouldn't affect their other projects. That only includes the numbers they announced publicly.
The money for Defiance and End of Nations is coming from investors period. They raised 200 million prelaunch for all three projects.
The could have no revenue from subs in Rift and it wouldn't affect their other projects. That only includes the numbers they announced publicly.
I'm not sure how you get inside information such as this, but I don't think it's true based on the servers being really low right now and all the 'deals'.
This game isn't dying, but it certainly won't be able to help fun other projects which Trion has to pay for in addition to paying for itself.
They spent over 50 million on RIFT alone.
Secret: a lot of that 200 million goes to things other than game development such as everyday expenses and ADVERTISING which RIFT spent a ton on. Unless you somehow think all that G4TV/SyFy/whatever television commercial time for four months straight was donated.
If u had actually spent some of those millions on children with leukemia or cancer I might actually be impressed. Or sent Mott's or St. Jude's hospital some cash I might be impressed...
Played Wow, D and L, AOC, GW, Eve, Rift and many more insignificant games.
The money for Defiance and End of Nations is coming from investors period. They raised 200 million prelaunch for all three projects.
The could have no revenue from subs in Rift and it wouldn't affect their other projects. That only includes the numbers they announced publicly.
I'm not sure how you get inside information such as this, but I don't think it's true based on the servers being really low right now and all the 'deals'.
Trion has some deficits and problems in Rift, but for sure not financial problems. They had 150 million dollar cash in hand one year ago, without one dollar debt. You can also assume that Rift already paid itself - it was not the big hit we all wanted to see, but it was also not a failure.
Sorry, GW2 is proven through GW1 and you can level to 80. But obviously leveling to 80 could be as easy as leveling to 50 in Rift. That would be very unfortunate. I enjoy tough games! I want leveling to be a project! I don't want another carebear game.
Played Wow, D and L, AOC, GW, Eve, Rift and many more insignificant games.
It is true: http://www.trionworlds.com/en/about/investors Trion has some deficits and problems in Rift, but for sure not financial problems. They had 150 million dollar cash in hand one year ago, without one dollar debt. You can also assume that Rift already paid itself - it was not the big hit we all wanted to see, but it was also not a failure.
That doesn't say they got 200 million in loans. That says they have 'investors and strategic' partners. I'm not even doubting they got loans in the first place. The point is this:
But that doesnt intimidate the folks at Trion Worlds, which has raised more than $100 million and has more than 200 people working on a variety of MMOs. Of course, beating WoW is the ultimate prize, since WoW has more than 12 million paying subscribers and it generates more than $1 billion in revenue per year for Activision Blizzard.
(..later on)
VB: So after five years, youre not making money on this game yet.
DR: Not yet, but really darn soon. What day of the month is it?
Now that is December.
So somewhere between December 31, 2010 (might as well say January 1, 2011) and March 1, 2011... Trion got $100 million dollars??? Three months later they doubled what they got since they made the company up until that time?
Then think about Trion already admitting RIFT was over 50 million months ago. That would be half of that 100 million right there. Again, not counting lights, electric, servers, employee salaries (200 people is a lot), building space, taxes, etc, etc, etc.
2. Even if it is 150 million or 200 million.. have we all not seen those hundreds of commercials they've been running nonstop of television day and night? Not counting the internet or trade mags, newspapers or whatever.. television. There is a reason no one but Blizzard mainly advertises on television.. it's freakin' expensive as hell, lol!
Trion's been soaking T.V. with those ads for months. Seriously, they don't get a deal if they buy 9 commercials and get the 10th free. Airtime is a huge chunk of a budget so companies don't bother.
He'd have to show me where they actually say they have $200 million. Then he'd have to figure in five years of nothing. Then figure in two more projects with nothing. And figure expenses. Then figure what the servers are starting to look like.
I don't want the game to fail, but I'm a realist and don't believe in Mary Poppins type of proof.
DR: You cant do these games without huge investments, awesome talent, and a lot of time. For venture financing, $100 million sounds like a lot.
But these are really ambitious projects, and you have to be in this league to be competitive. We have used that money to build not one game but to commission a number of games that are all very groundbreaking
Trion has enough money to develop not one, but three games. One MMORPG, One MMORTS and One MMOFPS/TV Tie-In. If they crash and burn, it's going to take awhile.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by lizardbones What was the point of this thread again?
Oh, Rift's population.
It's stable for at least the past month or so.
Trion has enough money to develop not one, but three games. One MMORPG, One MMORTS and One MMOFPS/TV Tie-In. If they crash and burn, it's going to take awhile.
I can't edit my own post? O.k. fine.
The thing about the 3 games is that they are 3 very different types of games. We're not talking Cryptic's reskin of the Champion's game engine, but three totally different games. I don't know if players have plans for a post-Rift world, but Trion sure does.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by lizardbones What was the point of this thread again?
Oh, Rift's population.
It's stable for at least the past month or so.
Trion has enough money to develop not one, but three games. One MMORPG, One MMORTS and One MMOFPS/TV Tie-In. If they crash and burn, it's going to take awhile.
Pretty sure you can claim that when they actually launch.
Lots of things happen between start and release date. Population is still sketchy but the news of the cross server seems to have a lot of people thinking of resubbing because they can actually get dungeons now.
Rift won't be dead in a year, but the way things are turning it's going to be close when GW2/TSW/SWTOR all launch. People are still leaving but not subbing fast enough.. my server which was good for months Greybrier is now pretty flat with regards to lower level people that I had to move.
DR: You can’t do these games without huge investments, awesome talent, and a lot of time. For venture financing, $100 million sounds like a lot.
But these are really ambitious projects, and you have to be in this league to be competitive. We have used that money to build not one game but to commission a number of games that are all very groundbreaking
Well, I am a software developer, too, and I can imagine what they are talking about. While you see three completely different games there, I see three Client/Server systems with the same server architecture and just different animations and graphics on the client side. Ok, arts are a big part in developing a game,but the infrastructure itself is an important and big topic, too. And Trion has shown that they know a lot about infrastructure - though I would have liked to see the same level of knowledge in the game design department.
During alpha/beta they told us that 50 mio are going to rift, 30 mio to end of nations and 20 mio to some other thing. Later on they increased all three numbers, but I have no link available to prove it - anyway, who cares?
The point is, they have a lot of financial backing, they have investors that for sure allow them to bring cheap advertisements to television, as the investors themself selll the ads... So basically, Trion had a real formidable starting position, and unfortunately still needs to prove why the subscribers should stick with them.
During alpha/beta they told us that 50 mio are going to rift, 30 mio to end of nations and 20 mio to some other thing. Later on they increased all three numbers, but I have no link available to prove it - anyway, who cares?
The point is, they have a lot of financial backing, they have investors that for sure allow them to bring cheap advertisements to television, as the investors themself selll the ads... So basically, Trion had a real formidable starting position, and unfortunately still needs to prove why the subscribers should stick with them.
I agree with the 'who cares' for the most part. It's just that the other poster was throwing around numbers and I usually like to put that kind of rumor mongering to bed early, because if you don't it laters becomes the accepted starting point inaccurately.
I hadn't even brought actual numbers into it as far as budget because no one knows the full story as to what costs are there unless a company divulges. But in this day/age it's a mischaracterisation to say that one company's products don't affect the other at all. Parent companies borrow from one to pay for the other's games all the time if they need so an independant company with no revenue other than more loans is not going to run those other two games completely independant. They will take devs, office space, supplies, and even salaries from one to beef up another when they need to.
The only thing we probably really will disagree on is television. Having relatives who work in that medium, there is no such thing as 'cheap advertisements' on television anywhere except local cable and even that has gone up considerably in the last few years.
Trion isn't the only private company with investors nor are they the biggest, so I doubt they would get some type of special deals that no one else in the industry could get if they were spending the money.
Again, look at it with a neutral eye.. television ads have been running for three months straight; at least that's as far as I remember watching them. Even pro rated and discounted deeply, that's a chunk of any company's budget.
Think about all the mmos released before you've ever seen, then think about how many of them did MASSIVE t.v. ads on a scale like this. Even games with 100 million dollar budgets like Warhammer (just south of it) didn't put that on television for months running.
The only thing we probably really will disagree on is television. Having relatives who work in that medium, there is no such thing as 'cheap advertisements' on television anywhere except local cable and even that has gone up considerably in the last few years.
...
At least in my country there were only adds on TV senders that are owned by Bertelsmann, which is also one of their main investors. Of course I don't know the details, but it is very likely that Bertelsmann uses one of their mediums to advertise for the other. Makes sense to me, doesn't it?
Originally posted by Clywd Originally posted by popinjay ... The only thing we probably really will disagree on is television. Having relatives who work in that medium, there is no such thing as 'cheap advertisements' on television anywhere except local cable and even that has gone up considerably in the last few years. ...
At least in my country there were only adds on TV senders that are owned by Bertelsmann, which is also one of their main investors. Of course I don't know the details, but it is very likely that Bertelsmann uses one of their mediums to advertise for the other. Makes sense to me, doesn't it? It would make sense if businesses were just like everyday people.. we always give deals to our 'friends'. But that said, in business there aren't friends. But what seems logical with citizen's eyes is not good for the corporate eyes.
Even if a company has subsidiaries that doesn't mean just because they are under the same parent umbrella, they shoot each other discounts.
The company who is selling the airtime needs to make profit, not give substantial discounts. A company only has so many hours in a day to sell spots.. it's a finite amount of space unlike a billboard or the internet. If they have spots, giving deals means that particular company makes less because instead of selling 30 spots a day to an average customer, they have to shoot Trion deals and lose out of their own revenue. Then has to report that to the parent company at the quarter which doesn't want to hear that. A larger company won't say to another 'give that guy a deal'; it's all the same to them.
Example: in the US, G4TV has a ton of Rift ads running day and night. G4TV is owned by NBC Univeral. NBC Universal is one of the investors of Rift. I doubt NBC would tell G4 "Hey, this game is our subsidary investment of 15 million we gave them. Give them a lot of discount ads for three months of airtime."
G4 would lose more than that overall for three months by not selling those spots at normal prices to other customers, which hurts the parent company in the long run.
I mean, using your logic, you'd think NBC would tell G4 to give Rift massive coverage by their reporters and hosts, but Rift is barely mentioned during the shows or featured in spots at all. All the bigger studios and games like Starcraft and Blizzard titles are covered way more than Rift is on Xplay and AOTS.
G4 even had massive layoffs, had to cut shows and even got dropped from DirecTV's satellite lineup because of low ratings. I doubt NBC would tell them to give discounts at a time like that in commercials.
Comments
Well, dislike Rift and Trion all you like for whatever weird reason, I think that GW is a perfectly good example of server costs and that server maintenance is only a small fraction per player per month of a sub.
As for Arenanet not having to worry about anything, are you for real? Arenanet has only 1 game on the market and had huge costs of development for GW2 just like any other MMO developer. They literally said that everything depends on the success of GW2, they've invested everything in it, so...
I don't know, but to me after the constant negative posts of you with trying to portray Rift or Trion as bad as possible, it seems like you have Rift in your crosshairs and don't want Rift or Trion to be seen as successful. My advice, get over it.
For the new studio on the scene as they are, they delivered a solid MMORPG, with a better launch and product than most of what we've seen in the past couple of years. It wasn't my kind of game, but what I heard from friends and read on forums, Rift left its players behind with a more satisfied and less embittered and disillusioned feeling than most of the other MMO's the past 5 years. Add to that close to a million sales and still a lot of sub revenues incoming, and I'd say that they did pretty good. imo.
Yep, I hate RIFT so much that I have a six month sub. /boggle
Please try and keep it germaine to the discussion and less personal analysis, ok? It is going good so far. I promise not to do the same with you.
Trion has:
1. Rift. Currently out and has 38 'trial servers' no one can roll on. Offering sales every two weeks or so on deeply discounted subs and boxes. Giving players who left a mere one month ago a chance to come back for one whole week free. Implementing cross-shard features in their LFD system after saying they would only 'if absolutely necessary'.
2. Defiance: MMO in production. Not on the market.
3. End of Nations: RTS in production. Not on the market.
4. No other products earning revenue or income.
How do you propose they pay for all of that? Your speculation of them having plenty of money each month to keep all of this going is quite amazing. It's like you're saying all they have to do is pay for RIFT.
You are not taking into account ANY expenses whatsoever in your evaluations for things companies need daily, let alone those additional projects. As I said, corporate building space, employee salaries, insurances for products, taxes on earnings, expense accounts, server space/maintanence, and the list goes on. Their advertising bill alone for constant television spots like on G4TV and elsewhere have to be massive, and that's not counting the internet at all.
I'm simply showing you reality, but you're only mentioning flat income. You're like someone who says "I make $70,000 a year", and isn't counting where he lives, gas, food, clothes, etc. That simply makes no logical sense.
Not rooting for the game to 'fail'. Not saying game stinks (its okay). Not saying it will die in a year (it won't). But to plainly state simple facts is not hate or suspect. It's DISCUSSING a mmo, which is what the forums is about.
Not just the rosy side of one.
"TO MICHAEL!"
"TO MICHAEL!"
I think rift is slowly dying at least in the 1 to 50 part of the game .
Some servers are completely dead almost but lots of 50 players.
Also i noticed some servers are rated HIGH and have more guardians and dead on other side .
The end game isnt too good so I cant really see this game lasting much longer as a main stream MMO especially with new games coming out soon .
Sorry, but what makes you think that Trion is different from those other MMO companies that only have the money from their existing MMO to build further on? They have expenses, they have revenues, so what?
We were talking server maintenance costs here - initially - or let's expand it to 'operational costs' and those are a lot lower than the 15 dollar/month per player.
Which leaves them enough money for further development, for Rift and their other projects. In fact, I bet that they have more revenues from their MMO right now than ANet had in the past 4 years, and ANet had operational costs those past 4 years with no incoming revenues from subs at all, only additional sales of their budget priced games and a meager itemshop, to cover operational costs and development of GW2.
If companies like AoC and FC can do it, then Trion can as well.
To use your example, it's like saying "those dudes and those families are in the same position and are managing with only 40-50k a year, and they have been doing so for years. If they can do it, then with 70k should be possible too."
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
the game is actually thriving. Most of the servers are medium/high all the time. The servers that are "trial" have been low pop since teh game launched. Thats why they were made trial.
Please name 'other companies' as you say with this kind of debtload after launching four months out.
I see you love to mention AoC, so let's look more in-depth at that company. (I hope Wiki is okay)
Funcom:
Type: Public
Founded : 1993
Products: The Longest Journey
Anarchy Online
Age of Conan
Dreamfall
Bloodline Champions
(stopping here, too many to list)
Revenue (as of 2008): US$13.010 million (Q2 2008)
Operating income: US$7.191 million (Q2 2008)
Net income: US$5.819 million (Q2 2008)
Employees: 322
That's all the good news. Looks great with a profit, right? Then you get into August 2008 when they take serious hits. They are able to get out of problems because:
1. It's a public company around for 18 years, not a private one like Trion that can get capital easy
2. They have other things generating revenue even though their main project (AoC) takes hits. Trion cannot do that if RIFT takes hits which it is now.
ArenaNet is totally different than Trion and you should stop comparing them. ArenaNet is owned by NCSoft. Period.
ArenaNet is not a private company nor do they have to foot the bill of anything by themselves. NCSoft is a PUBLIC Korean based parent company which has easy access to government money if needed so does not have to pay for everything on it's own, like many of the asian gaming companies do which U.S. makers aren't able to get. Why do you think Trion is called an 'independant' company?
That is in addition to making probably the second biggest MMO after World of Warcraft which brings in revenue. Hmm.. what else does NCSoft own? Oh yeah.. some mmo called City of Heroes.
The worst company for you to compare vs Trion is NCSoft, which you are unwittingly doing.
"TO MICHAEL!"
This game isn't dying, but it certainly won't be able to help fun other projects which Trion has to pay for in addition to paying for itself.
They spent over 50 million on RIFT alone.
Secret: a lot of that 200 million goes to things other than game development such as everyday expenses and ADVERTISING which RIFT spent a ton on. Unless you somehow think all that G4TV/SyFy/whatever television commercial time for four months straight was donated.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Wow! The servers being low...? Why are they low? Because everyone has beat the game. Everyone is level 50...Please...tell me who isn't level 50?
Played Wow, D and L, AOC, GW, Eve, Rift and many more insignificant games.
I got bored at 35 and quit. I hate spending about 80% of the leveling in only 3 zones.
If u had actually spent some of those millions on children with leukemia or cancer I might actually be impressed. Or sent Mott's or St. Jude's hospital some cash I might be impressed...
Played Wow, D and L, AOC, GW, Eve, Rift and many more insignificant games.
It is true: http://www.trionworlds.com/en/about/investors
Trion has some deficits and problems in Rift, but for sure not financial problems. They had 150 million dollar cash in hand one year ago, without one dollar debt. You can also assume that Rift already paid itself - it was not the big hit we all wanted to see, but it was also not a failure.
Currently playing: EverQuest
Waiting for Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen
Sorry... that had nothing to do with the game...
Played Wow, D and L, AOC, GW, Eve, Rift and many more insignificant games.
Just wait for GW2 to come out. Say goodbye to the populations and hello to the tumbleweeds.
This game is not good enough to keep playing after that.
Guild Wars 2!
Why do you think so? There seems to be nothing in gw2 that is really that much more long-term focused than what we have seen in rift.
Currently playing: EverQuest
Waiting for Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen
Sorry, GW2 is proven through GW1 and you can level to 80. But obviously leveling to 80 could be as easy as leveling to 50 in Rift. That would be very unfortunate. I enjoy tough games! I want leveling to be a project! I don't want another carebear game.
Played Wow, D and L, AOC, GW, Eve, Rift and many more insignificant games.
1. I don't think it was 200 million. This article is all I've seen so far is this article from December 31, 2010 so far in Venture Beat (Will Trion World's Rift online game kill World of WarCraft?).
The article says in part:
Now that is December.
So somewhere between December 31, 2010 (might as well say January 1, 2011) and March 1, 2011... Trion got $100 million dollars??? Three months later they doubled what they got since they made the company up until that time?
Then think about Trion already admitting RIFT was over 50 million months ago. That would be half of that 100 million right there. Again, not counting lights, electric, servers, employee salaries (200 people is a lot), building space, taxes, etc, etc, etc.
2. Even if it is 150 million or 200 million.. have we all not seen those hundreds of commercials they've been running nonstop of television day and night? Not counting the internet or trade mags, newspapers or whatever.. television. There is a reason no one but Blizzard mainly advertises on television.. it's freakin' expensive as hell, lol!
Trion's been soaking T.V. with those ads for months. Seriously, they don't get a deal if they buy 9 commercials and get the 10th free. Airtime is a huge chunk of a budget so companies don't bother.
He'd have to show me where they actually say they have $200 million. Then he'd have to figure in five years of nothing. Then figure in two more projects with nothing. And figure expenses. Then figure what the servers are starting to look like.
I don't want the game to fail, but I'm a realist and don't believe in Mary Poppins type of proof.
"TO MICHAEL!"
edit to above...
They also said this in the article:
"TO MICHAEL!"
What was the point of this thread again?
Oh, Rift's population.
It's stable for at least the past month or so.
Trion has enough money to develop not one, but three games. One MMORPG, One MMORTS and One MMOFPS/TV Tie-In. If they crash and burn, it's going to take awhile.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I can't edit my own post? O.k. fine.
The thing about the 3 games is that they are 3 very different types of games. We're not talking Cryptic's reskin of the Champion's game engine, but three totally different games. I don't know if players have plans for a post-Rift world, but Trion sure does.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Lots of things happen between start and release date. Population is still sketchy but the news of the cross server seems to have a lot of people thinking of resubbing because they can actually get dungeons now.
Rift won't be dead in a year, but the way things are turning it's going to be close when GW2/TSW/SWTOR all launch. People are still leaving but not subbing fast enough.. my server which was good for months Greybrier is now pretty flat with regards to lower level people that I had to move.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Well, I am a software developer, too, and I can imagine what they are talking about. While you see three completely different games there, I see three Client/Server systems with the same server architecture and just different animations and graphics on the client side. Ok, arts are a big part in developing a game,but the infrastructure itself is an important and big topic, too. And Trion has shown that they know a lot about infrastructure - though I would have liked to see the same level of knowledge in the game design department.
During alpha/beta they told us that 50 mio are going to rift, 30 mio to end of nations and 20 mio to some other thing. Later on they increased all three numbers, but I have no link available to prove it - anyway, who cares?
The point is, they have a lot of financial backing, they have investors that for sure allow them to bring cheap advertisements to television, as the investors themself selll the ads... So basically, Trion had a real formidable starting position, and unfortunately still needs to prove why the subscribers should stick with them.
Currently playing: EverQuest
Waiting for Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen
I hadn't even brought actual numbers into it as far as budget because no one knows the full story as to what costs are there unless a company divulges. But in this day/age it's a mischaracterisation to say that one company's products don't affect the other at all. Parent companies borrow from one to pay for the other's games all the time if they need so an independant company with no revenue other than more loans is not going to run those other two games completely independant. They will take devs, office space, supplies, and even salaries from one to beef up another when they need to.
The only thing we probably really will disagree on is television. Having relatives who work in that medium, there is no such thing as 'cheap advertisements' on television anywhere except local cable and even that has gone up considerably in the last few years.
Trion isn't the only private company with investors nor are they the biggest, so I doubt they would get some type of special deals that no one else in the industry could get if they were spending the money.
Again, look at it with a neutral eye.. television ads have been running for three months straight; at least that's as far as I remember watching them. Even pro rated and discounted deeply, that's a chunk of any company's budget.
Think about all the mmos released before you've ever seen, then think about how many of them did MASSIVE t.v. ads on a scale like this. Even games with 100 million dollar budgets like Warhammer (just south of it) didn't put that on television for months running.
"TO MICHAEL!"
At least in my country there were only adds on TV senders that are owned by Bertelsmann, which is also one of their main investors. Of course I don't know the details, but it is very likely that Bertelsmann uses one of their mediums to advertise for the other. Makes sense to me, doesn't it?
Currently playing: EverQuest
Waiting for Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen
It would make sense if businesses were just like everyday people.. we always give deals to our 'friends'. But that said, in business there aren't friends. But what seems logical with citizen's eyes is not good for the corporate eyes.
Even if a company has subsidiaries that doesn't mean just because they are under the same parent umbrella, they shoot each other discounts.
The company who is selling the airtime needs to make profit, not give substantial discounts. A company only has so many hours in a day to sell spots.. it's a finite amount of space unlike a billboard or the internet. If they have spots, giving deals means that particular company makes less because instead of selling 30 spots a day to an average customer, they have to shoot Trion deals and lose out of their own revenue. Then has to report that to the parent company at the quarter which doesn't want to hear that. A larger company won't say to another 'give that guy a deal'; it's all the same to them.
Example: in the US, G4TV has a ton of Rift ads running day and night. G4TV is owned by NBC Univeral. NBC Universal is one of the investors of Rift. I doubt NBC would tell G4 "Hey, this game is our subsidary investment of 15 million we gave them. Give them a lot of discount ads for three months of airtime."
G4 would lose more than that overall for three months by not selling those spots at normal prices to other customers, which hurts the parent company in the long run.
I mean, using your logic, you'd think NBC would tell G4 to give Rift massive coverage by their reporters and hosts, but Rift is barely mentioned during the shows or featured in spots at all. All the bigger studios and games like Starcraft and Blizzard titles are covered way more than Rift is on Xplay and AOTS.
G4 even had massive layoffs, had to cut shows and even got dropped from DirecTV's satellite lineup because of low ratings. I doubt NBC would tell them to give discounts at a time like that in commercials.
"TO MICHAEL!"