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MMOs no longer build worlds and thats why no one stays more then 3 months.
gotha
Member UncommonPosts: 1,074
Ok old games. UO, EQ, DAOC, Swg were worlds for people to love in breath in. Ever since wow all we really have is single player games with thousands of people playing in the same enviroment. Once the content is dried up people leave. This has nothing to do with sandbox or themepark. There were both themepark and sandbox worlds. Its just the straight fact MMO developers stopped mass producing worlds in a AAA fashion after wow. If its not a world people can live in breath in how the hell do you plan on retaining them for years straight.
Comments
Not disagreeing, but how do you account for the longevity that WoW has experienced?
Most of wows longevity is related to people coming back for expansions, or when they get bored other single player MMOs games and decide to run arenas or something else that has been ported over from single player games. Also wow has a very ridculous but addictive circular gear grind.
Wows numbers flucuate. Its why you also see idiots thinking wow is dieing 6 months after a major expansion.
I can't even remember countless times i stood in Asherons call 2 or Lineage 2 sometimes for full day or longer ingame while i was away from keyboard. Also how you could drop your items on ground and how you could explore world with no LOADSCREEN at all with ZERO instance. These where worlds you could realy lost in and forget real life:)
This still can in somegames but even tho Darkfall have this oportunity its max 23hours then maintenance, and no drop items on ground.
I love a online worlds where you can be ingame for hours days without been kicked out or drop items on ground and without any loadscreen or instance these are mmo games i only play. Not the modern crap mmo's that instantly warp you from instance to instance and loadscreen after laodscreen and all ways small groups in silly protected areas that nobody else can enter.
Thats why i hate themeparks so much.
PS. Peole don't forget that millions of new gamers started when WoW first came to market they are the new generation and now main bulk of gaming community sadly they all think whole mmo started with WoW IM AFFRAID:(.
And every developer these days cater for those masses:(
This is my main problem with MMOs these days. It's like developers have forgotten what depth is.
apart from it primarily being an open and seamless world. it can run on this p3 i have in my closet under 4 inches of dust.
Blizzard knows exactly what gets people addicted. And that's why people play WoW or even Diablo 1 after all these years. They are smart. Other companies haven't found this trick yet ;-) That and Blizzard delivers quality.
Back on topic. The reason why UO was (is?) an succes is that it has everything for everyone. Crafting/questing/pvp and so on...it is all there. This brings a very broad playerbase.
Most new mmo's are pvp oriented and although i like pvp'ing, i rather play a FPS then an unbalanced mmo ;-) Focussing on PVP means PVE, RPG, Crafting and so on get less attention. This results in an very pvp oriented playerbase where pve is only seen as a nuissance you have to live with in order to level to endgame asap.
Silly enough, companies assume that the pvp centric playerbase is because people only want to pvp and therefore they create more and more pvp content forcing people to pvp even more. When they leave pvp for what it is and start working on other content , more diverse people will be attracted. Built it and they will come....... ;-)
That AND it should be of high quality as well ofcourse.
Just my 2 cents.
Quality is not becouse millions like and it never will its mainly becouse of smart advertising and addictivness plus fact that most humans are followers, with smart advertising many can be indoctrinated to buy there product and make them slaves to there product thats what blizzard do best make gaming slaves:P
WoW=Crap
Diablo=Crap
I know many who bought SC2 just becouse it was blizzard lol but they quit after few days-weeks becouse they did not like it, and thats what i mean with mass who just blindly follow as slaves even when its crap:P
But the gamingslaves like it and there is nothing we can do about it:(
Apart from the world itself, developers does need to think more about how they can put community within that world rather than focus on each player go in the same story mode and experience the same linear path that everyone else will have to go through from zone to zone and never go back to the low-level zone because there is no need to. Each zones become like next stage to progress, and left the previous zone to be empty or just for the new players. It's limit the social and "play together" down to guild and raid in dungeons. and the world feel like it's just a static background of the "game". Dead, not alive.
It doesn't matter how big and beatiful the world is. If the game build up like a single player game or focus on small group of players instead of everyone on the server, it just not going to be fun for long.
My own, recent, revelation is very much that PLAYERS need to put less emphasis on graphics and more on gameplay/design/depth and user interactions. If there's a number of players who take this approach and vote with their wallets, we may see some devs take this line more competitively?
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
I agree to some extent but if you look at say WoW its a world but since the cross server looking for a group system its hardly used . The problem is easy access to instances in some games which leads to the feeling its not a world . To attract the casual player many mmo developers are ignoring the gamer . The only game I play any more which has any kind of community in it is Lotro at the moment .
MMOs were a genre that appealed to a much smaller demographic back in the day... Which is why you saw MMORPGs with populations of a fraction of the average size now.
But now, MMOs are being created and marketted as a mainstream genre.
I feel like the MMO demographic and the xbox-live demographic have merged a lot more than they should have.
Older games fostered community. It could take you years to actually discover or reach all parts of the world do to game difficulty. No radar meant you had to know how to get somewhere or you would in fact actually get LOST. All modern games are simplisitic and hand feed the player base. There really isn't much discovery. Everybody keeps touting the population but nobody says anything about the majority of its players are from Asia not America. WoW made a game that a 5 year old could comprehend and play pretty much and that yes did appeal to the masses.
"If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." (Anatole France)
quality never was an attribute the masses reached for. well, thats a bit harsh, lets say the masses does have diffrent expectations and needs when it comes to play a mmog. they want it easy, fast and rewarding, they want to socialize and to play a lil bit, they want to relax from the hard real world. for the majority of the players mmogs are an alternative leisure activity. 10 years ago they met with friends in bars, went bowling or to the movies. today they play with friends in a mmog, speak with them over voicetools and its much more cheaper (an evening at the cinema 15$ - a whole month of mmog-playtime 15$).
and there is the minority in the mmog community, a lot of them active on this board, like myself. we do all the things the majority does but we see mmogs more like a hobby, more seriously. we invest much more time, we need the challenges, we need depth and like it to work hard for success, we need progress, we like to shape things to our taste.
in the last years, i call it the post-wow-years (2004 until today), the industry tried to get a hand in the pocket of the majority and make them grow bigger in numbers. they don't build something larger with more quality if they can get the same amount of money with cheaper products. well, thats whats business is like. but with the grwoth of the majority the minority gets numbers too. approx. 85 million mmog-players in EU are paying for client-based (!!!) mmogs. lets assume the minority count 1 million players and are scattered and stucked in a lot of games. most of them can be found in eve, some in aoc or lotro and a few in earthrise or xyson. but what the industry underestimate is, that as soon as a ultima online - the next generation, a polished vanguard or a eve online like fantasy mmorpg hits the market, the minority will find its way and can easily produce a high subscription number.
but maybe such a game is in the early stages of design and we don't know it. but with the development time nowadays we, the minority, may have to wait years for it.
Maybe it's a lack of complexity to these mmorpgs? Think it's time this cop headed over to EvE finally!
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
I'd guess that the people that play WoW for many years are not the same people that played UO, EQ, DAoC, AC for many years. One of the things Blizzard did really well with WoW was that they brought their own fan-base into the MMORPG genre, the players that had experienced Blizzards other games (Diablo, Warcraft, Starcraft) and were willing to jump into the MMORPG genre together with Blizzard.
This is one reason why other themeparks did less well: they didn't have a huge fanbase to introduce into the genre. The other themeparks instead relied on pulling the WoW-players away from WoW, with little success in the long run.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
I agree with OP. Modern mmorpg's don't build worlds. Economy and crafting is usually pants and meaningless. Loading screens everyherer, no seamingless, small & claustrophobic world. Approach based exclusively on running instances/raids is getting old , especially that nowadays you can join instances from everyhere which results in open world having no meaning and transforming mmorpg to multiplayer game with graphical lobby in major city/cities. No wonder it gets boring fast.
As for WoW people play it cause:
- their friends do
- was their first mmorpg and they don't want to leave cause they already invested alot of time
- some very casual gamers don't know there are other mmorpg's beside wow
- popular IP (just remember how popular was Warcraft III)
- Vanilla WoW actually created world, sure it was with alot of limitations , etc but it was big and open one. That changed thou later on...
- WoW 'just works' , many mmorpg's are bugged, unpolished, have expoits ,etc . Many ppl play WoW or come back to it before this other title they checked had bugs or bad support ,etc
Besides all this reasons there sure is big crowd of players who still like do grind instances to death and don't care about game world , they just want hit level cap and do instances. I think that there is less this kind of players that in years before, because some of them got bored and are looking for bit diffrent playstyle.
I agree with the OP that modern MMORPGs failed to grasp the "world" aspect of MMORPGs, however, that's not the only reason to retain players. While it IS a good plus and a main factor it is not the only factor.
WoW managed to retain players due to the carrot-on-a-stick Gear Progression system (and reputation system). But this has nothing to do with the insane numbers of subscribers because that's another issue we discussed many times in details. WoW does retain players for a long time, I know this for a fact. Yes, it didn't keep me playing but it did keep many people I know playing for a long long time. But when I ask them it's either they're staying for Raids or for PvP BG farming honor (back then).
But any game copying WoW NOW is going to fail because frankly people are bored of this Gear Progression of WoW and they've done it already. I believe people are seeking something different, a new meaning of being in a world. That's why all the new games which fail to grasp the "world" aspect is going to fail. Carrot-on-a-stick will not help them this time. That idea was good on 2004-2007, not good anymore.
Now you need more tools with depth for the players to use in order to feel they are part of something. MMORPGs require more social aspect than running quests solo, how long can you make these "quests" interesting? no matter what you do (throwing in cinematics, voice overs.. it will grow old). What will last is the freedom players would have being in that world with the tools the game provides them with.
Every MMO copies from WoW sadly.
Elites are soloable, the whole contents soloable, noone wants to group, i mean come on, Diablo 2 is more of an MMO now because you always want to group to quest.
If they only copied group gameplay from Diablo 2, made grouping more rewarding(ATM its crap, for example 5 players=1/5 items and experience) MMO would have a meaning once again while leveling up.
Im not saying that a group should give more exp, but i would like to see alot more group quests where the bosses aint even 2manable. And maybe increase drop chance of rare items while in group, ATM every MMO i try blows cause i can solo them up to max level.
Even questing solo in Diablo 2 is more MMO than any new MMO. A player can just duel you all and go after you. The whole world can be a PvP zone except in towns.
Theres two differences:
1. Diablo 2: The whole world is a PvP zone. If you quest alone, oh my youre doomed. Atleast some years ago.
In MMOs the world is safe, even elites are nothing.
2. Diablo 2: In this game, even with no rewards, every player wants you dead if they PvP.
In MMOs, even with rewards, noone wants to kill you. They just do their own business.
What the...?
Yawn
Because
(1) it appealed to the masses
(2) wow used to be really hard, but its beend umed down now to where you can reach max leve in about 2 weeks.
The problem is the content in a lot of games used to take a long time to do and reach max level but now days it takes you 2-3 weeks in most games till max level. then all that is left is repeatable raids,pvp.
That is the real problem.
@ OP
I pretty much agree with you. The genre has lost soul, its just pop music now.
I have many criticisms of WoW, but I don't fault the size and interest of their world. It is quite remarkable really.
Also, I think we have more to look forward to. SWTOR looks like it has a massive world that I personally plan to explore every inch of.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Personally, I agree. I enjoy the "world" concept and truly miss the MMO's that embraced it. I remember countless days in Asheron's Call and DAoC running around exploring, staying AFK just to stay in the game, hanging around town centers, lifestones and the hub, and always feeling like I was apart of the world.
I understand that MMO's are evolving, and I am not against it. I simply miss the olden days of not feeling like a number.
Games Played: World of Warcraft, Dark Age of Camelot, Asheron's Call, Asheron's Call 2 and Star Wars Galaxies.
I personally lost hope of finding an MMORPG with that world "Vision".. It just puzzles me because in the forums/blogs almost the majority always agree with this point and everyone's disappointed.
I go to Board Game communities and forums and everyone is happy! Everyone is praising the new titles that's been produced left and right.
I go to any gaming genre and they're quite happy. Miniature Table Top are in their golden day now..
What the heck is going on with MMORPGs?????
Personaly and how I view my wants and needs from a MMORPG I can agree. Objectively I can not agree as we see plenty of these limited (in my view) MMORPG's being played for years.
I feel that mostly us older generation of gamers who started with Meridian59/UO or the others you mentioned are now a minority compared to the majority of gamers that grew up with MMO's since WoW. I think I also expected this genre to evolve in so much more then what we had, instead we see less then what we had but more streamlined and polished.
I also feel that most older gamers are more patient players but lets face it the new generation of today is so used at getting everything fast, think about how we used to get new music, we actually needed to go to a record store, today a person doesn't even have to leave the house as everything is under his/her fingertips, this generation is very spoiled. Now don't get me wrong there are plenty of new generation gamers that do have patience but I keep seeing them also in this minority factor. Else we would have seen virtual worlds evolve into much bigger virtual worlds instead of these streamlined/polished themepark games.
Overall even back in the day we already saw that more people where on forums complaining about the games we liked, today we are the other side and sort of complaining about how MMORPG's are today.
Because all these blogs and forums don't speak for the majority, believe it or not. Few people bother with MMO forums and topics, and I'd be willing to bet only a single-digit percentage actually participate in discussion. I'm part of a community of gamers, and I get scoffed at whenever I mention things happening in MMO forums. I'm usually filled with knowledge on events, upcoming games, etc., stuff that's easy to find on these blogs and forum posts that everyone else is completely obivious to, and wondering where I got the information from.
The average MMOer is too busy playing games to care about what other people have to say about them, so there's a greater majority of gamers' opinions unnaccounted for. Considering how lucrative this 'shallow' generation of games is, it doesn't seem they agree with the OP much.
I also rarely stick with a game for a few months, but I just have a short attention span. I didn't stick with the older games very long either. So I don't think it's just a matter of how newer MMOs are made. I'm sure that's part of it, but I also think people over-glorify the older generation of MMO, sort of that addage 'It's never as pretty as you remember it. While I agree there are far too many WoW clones, I also think the majority of people have just been playing these MMOs too long and are more burnt out than they realize.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."