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Ah, so... this is the endgame.
DoktorTeufel
Member UncommonPosts: 413
As you can see by my signature, I've played WoW and WoW clones before. I never actually played WoW until endgame — I played for a couple of months, reached level 67, and then called it quits (this was shortly after BC was released). I foresaw that the endgame consisted primarily of grinding reputation and doing the same handful of raids for months on end until the next expansion, at which point I'd discard my epics (you know, the ones I just spent months earning) and start over again with the new content. Even with an excellent and active guild, which I had, I just wasn't interested in that.
WAR barely even had a PvE endgame, but I spent all of my time PvPing, so I hardly noticed. I still quit WAR after only a few months due to its many flaws, most notably the fact that open-world PvP was an absolute joke. WAR is still essentially a WoW clone, though. Yes, I know: Blizzard based Warcraft on Warhammer and/or ripped it off, depending on who you ask, but I'm talking about MMORPGs here. I remember WAR's endgame PvE being pretty damned annoying, too.
So now we come to RIFT. I found a very active, "fun-but-we-also-do-hardcore" guild that's really top-notch, and I promised myself that I'd give the theme park/WoW clone endgame a fair shake this time around. I quested to max level in about a month, raised my character's crafting and gathering skills to 300, and started participating in the endgame with my friendly and active guild.
I've come to the conclusion that theme park/WoW clone MMORPGs just aren't for me, because I despise this crap. It's the same garbage day in and day out. Log in, get world event dailies, get crafting dailies, get expert, dungeon and raid dailies, and perhaps also regional notoriety/rep dailies. Log full of dailies, almost literally the same thing over and over again. Yes, there is a variety of raids, expert rifts and T2 dungeons one can do with one's guild, and participating in this group content is pretty fun... at the moment. After I've done it all 5 times over, however, I'm pretty damned sure it'll just be a drudge to squeeze gear out of the RNG.
When it comes to dailies, I hate that I feel compelled to log in and do this repetitive content for several hours each and every day. For every day I don't, I miss out on approx. 200 event tokens, 37 crafting badges, thousands of notoriety points, and various endgame PvE loot currencies. I consider myself a hardcore player, but I prefer to play when I want to play. That might mean a big-ass weekend neckbeard marathon, or it might mean a week-long break. Thanks to dailies, my marathon/hiatus playing preference is severely crippled.
I'm going to try the PvP end of things now and see how that holds up, because I'm quite sure the PvE isn't going to do it for me. Are there a lot of PvP dailies...? I'm not sure I want to know.
Currently Playing: EVE Online
Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
Comments
The PVP would be better if there were more wf's. There is only four and if youre like me and pvp along the way to 50 you probably maxxed out the rep for the first two wf's around the time you got to 50 - so youre left grinding whitefall and scion, over and over again.
Welcome to Rift. They try to tell you its not Azeroth anymore, but it sure as hell looks like it if you walk around a little. Take it from me, their PVP isn't much better. The few BG's there are at 50 are okay, but its the fact that there's NOTHING to do but them - that's right, no attempt at legitimate world pvp, no arenas, no nothing else, its a system shamelessly carbon copied from the standard wow-clone formula.
The one thing thats nice is that PVP is generally fun - the UI is responsive, things work as they should, and all glitches and exploits have been patched, which is a testament to the quality of polish.
The problem is though their balance is pretty atrocious. Remember Gershowitz from WAR? Lead dev in charge of balancing classes. Yeah, from former WAR player to former WAR player, you don't need me to elaborate. He's got the same job at Trion, and it shows. Super-ridiculous healing classes capable of godlike powers and certain mage builds (Cough pyro) that are able to kill someone so quickly it puts raid bosses to shame.
PVP is sort of grindy too. I mean, how many times can you play those few BG's, until you get bored? Rank 6 doesn't take as long as it used to, but then you have to factor in that to be truly geared in PVP you need to raid. It's got WoW syndrome written all over it.
I could tell i wasn't in Azeroth anymore because the endgame was stupidly easy and took no thought or organization to complete.
It actually reminded me of Naxx v 2, or ToC, the two worst raids blizzard ever produced.
Except ToC at least had faction champs in toc, which was fun on hard mode the first few times.
Welcome to why the vast majority of mmorpg enthusiasts leave the mmorpg 3-6months out. Rift is a fun journey, but the end-game is no different than any other mmorpg; grind the same lobby-system Raid pve shoe-box dungeon and mobs ad nauseum over and over and the same pvp lobby-system shoe-box map in an 8v8 third-person shooter match over and over.
Do that same supposed "end-game" content over and over in pursuit of a varying shade of purple item until you beg to rather be water-boarded.
Maybe GW2 will get it right, because it doesn't seem as though SW:TOR will; Rift certainly didn't.
I suppose I'll have to pin my hopes on GW2 or another PvP-centric MMO moving forward. It seems as though the post-WoW style of PvE (whatever you'd like to call it) is basically the only kind we'll be seeing from now on. Maybe it's my nostalgia talking, but I got the most enjoyment out of PvE gameplay back in the early 2000s, from post-EQ/pre-WoW games like FFXI. That variety of PvE was hardcore and downright annoying, but it was also genuinely challenging and wasn't as clear-cut as this "do dailies and raids for 6-12 months" nonsense. I remember having a lot of choices for how to spend my time in the older theme park-style games. I wasn't forced onto a hand-holding advancement rail; there were dozens of ways to make money, get gear, craft, etc.
In other words, PvE is a lost cause for me in this new easymode era, but PvP is always about humans fighting humans. Therefore, a game that handles PvP properly should be plenty of fun to play. Don't get me wrong: I think RIFT is great, for what it is. The quality and polish of the game are pretty damned excellent, and it's fun to play for a little while. It's just not for me. I'm still going to give PvP a try, though.
I'm glad good old EVE is still there for me to play whenever I feel like it, as much or as little as I want, and featuring sandbox game play that's super-rare these days. I'm a bit tired of it after all these years, but there's the World of Darkness MMO to look forward to as well, and perhaps someday another good sandbox will come along.
Currently Playing: EVE Online
Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
"Maybe GW2 will get it right, because it doesn't seem as though SW:TOR will; Rift certainly didn't."
Yo dude I SO hope so. I originally come from FFXI but they did not have this kind of setup. And just like OP I never made it to end game in WOW. Then came DCUO and Rift. I can't believe how the devs keep trying to push this gear-centric activities on us. Just BS.
Anyways, I really hope GW2 will get this somehow right. And just like you, I think TOR's following on WoW's endgame.
Guild Wars 2's 50 minutes game play video:
http://n4g.com/news/592585/guild-wars-2-50-minutes-of-pure-gameplay
Everything We Know about GW2:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/287180/page/1
Unfortionately too many gamers these days rush to end-game and then complain about nothing to do. Try enjoying the journey next time, maybe you'll get your moneys worth at least. *lightbulb*
I do agree that you level too damn fast in RIFT though. There are times I wish I could lock my xp for abit and enjoy afew levels of quests/crafting/ ect. without having to worry about out leveling everything. Other then that, I've been having a blast exploring, craftin, rifting, and getting into some pvp. My predection is once I hit end-game I won't bother with the endless gear grind crap. I'll probly just roll a new toon and move onto another MMO for something new. Games are meant to be fun afterall, not a fochn second job :-)
Quite RIFT while your ahead is my suggestion. You've already burnt yourself out
"I play Tera for the gameplay"
I like the end game.. It's new and refreshing to me.. Then again i never played WoW and the only themepark MMO i got into was AION.. Which it's end game consisted of 1 instance and open world pvp.. Rift offers 100x more then AION so in my eyes it's offering A TON of end game content.. I don't see how people can run out of content so quickly (tier 6 pvp, tier 2 raids, dailies, events, ect) but maybe that's because I'am so used to playing Sandbox MMO's lol idk.
Currently Playing:
Rift + Starcraft II + Gears Of War 3 Beta
Daily quests along with cross realm grouping are two of the WORST ideas to hit the MMO scene. I wouldnt mind if the daily quests were randomly generated, perhaps to get you going back to areas you left behind, sure the challege would be trivial but atleast it would add variety.
But the same 5 or 6 daily quests on a rota just sucks the joy out of playing, yes its "something to do" but it falls into the catagory of "doing something just to have something to do" content should be fun and engaging, not just there to fill in the time.
Maybe just maybe ... its about killing other players and not rep farming ...
Just a thought.
same here i am in forsaken world it is a nice world but at the end it is like wow ,daily daily and yes more daily,i played aika ,aika maps wise is an insanelly simple game mecanic but adds the perspective of server war into it and it get fun in a hurry.i am still playing forsaken world tho cause i heard server wars were similar to aika so iam giving it a fair shake to experience end game.
I agree. Daily quests should be agianst the law
Just quit the themepark roulette and become a vocal minority in expecting a AAA studio to release a sandbox game. Its actually pretty fun as Ive only recently became aware that the majority of gamers here on MMORPG.com are sandbox enthusiasts and despise most things themepark, so I feel like I fit right in.
While you're at it, do liek I do and bad mouth every chance you get games like SWToR (becasue its WoW in space) and any future soon to be released AAA WoW clone.
Word on the streets that TSW, AA and GW2 are 3 titles releasing in the near future that break the mode of WoW and all its clones so follow those.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
No need to feel bad, Doktor! I feel exactly the same about this type of endgame, whether in Rift, WOW or anywhere else. It is SO boring! Hate it.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Meh...
I was expecting someone to post this. The problem with "not rushing" to the endgame is multifaceted. For starters, I don't give a damn about quest text and other filler — if I'm going to read a bunch of text, I'd prefer to read quality text, such as a science fiction novel. Quest text (even "good" quest text by industry standards) is a thin disguise for what's really just directed grinding.
In addition, WoW-style questing is almost entirely a solo exercise. It's possible to quest to max level with a friend or significant other, but you receive no additional reward for doing so, and the need to schedule questing sessions will likely slow you down quite a bit. Given that most non-PvP group content (outside of instanced dungeons) is in the endgame, and since I want to play the game with a large group of people rather than solo, it makes more sense to "rush" than to take my time reading rubbish quest text and stopping to smell the flowers.
Tying into the above is the fact that since most people do end up leveling quite quickly, there are a lot of level 50 players even three months into the game. 80%+ of my current guild is comprised of level 50 players. To play with them, I need to be level 50. Enjoying the journey is all well and good when doing so is a viable, reasonable option.
Finally, if I am rushing, I'm not alone. The majority of MMO players these days are accused of "rushing" and "skipping content". Let me ask you something: Is this the fault of the players, or of the developers for failing to design their game in a way that makes people want to see that content they're skipping? Or for not forcing people to slow down?
Currently Playing: EVE Online
Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
To OP's original post:
I LOVED Rift until I hit max level. It was fun, the story was good, but I couldn't do it again. I tried to roll new characters but I just couldn't do it. The T1 and T2's were a little fun but got old quick. In a few ways it's different than WoW, but it uses the same damn formula like you said. A log full of dailies...........isn't that getting old now? When are we going to see AAA games do something different? I want to get to max level and then have something fun to do. Not a bunch of repeat quests and waiting for a group for a dungeon. This formula just isn't working for me anymore.
"and then called it quits (this was shortly after BC was released). I foresaw that the endgame consisted primarily of grinding reputation and doing the same handful of raids for months on end until the next expansion, at which point I'd discard my epics (you know, the ones I just spent months earning) and start over again with the new content."
I've just never understood the anger at having to get new gear with expansions. Do these folks really think that the gear offered in the original release should always be the best gear the game has to offer forever and ever? Can you imagine if people playing EQ were still sporting their golden efreeti boots and for 10+ years there would never be a better set of boots, ever?
I just don't get it. I play games to kill monsters and pillage their stash of magical stuff for my own purposes. And I want that to continue with ever increasing difficulty and ever more powerful gear.
What do you folks suggest the people playing WoW should be doing if in your perfect world the gear from UBRS is still the best gear available in game?
I just don't get it. Do you suggest that they shouldn't have dungeons at all? Or that people would have incentive to play a dungeon that gave no material upgrade ever? Or what do you folks suggest the purpose of the game would be after you maxed your gear, never to get new gear?
I just don't get it. I don't think people with this theory have really thought it through.
So to the OP, if you get bored destroying magical foes in magical dungeons and receiving magical items, I'm not sure this is the genre for you.
Just explain how your character would develop over the years with the same gear you got in the first 6 months to a year? What else do you WANT to do in a fantasy game, if killing creatures for magical items isn't your thing?
And lastly, can you please explain how it would be financially or physically possible to release a game with infinite content never to be repeated? Rome wasn't built in a day you know.
There is more to do (potentially) in an MMO than kill creatures and take their stuff. You appear to have been groomed by Blizzard's games and the direction the industry's taken over the past decade or so into believing that killing things and taking their stuff is the be-all and end-all of the genre. I can see that you don't get it, so allow me to cure your ignorance.
I'll start with the obvious. See my signature? What game am I currently playing? Looks like it's EVE Online. Did you know that no small number of EVE players are still flying ships first released in 2005, and using equipment that's been around since 2007? Did you know that these players are fulfilling a useful or even critical role using those ships and equipment? Were you aware that even highly skilled veteran players might switch to or even regularly rely on these "old" setups? Whereas only a max-level WoW character with up-to-date epics (and whatever else is needed these days) is fully effective. Also, the lowest-level materials in EVE are always needed, unlike in WoW where they're in demand, but generally only so that a wealthier player can max their crafting for the stat bonus, not to actually create anything useful.
Yes, new equipment is a major part of most MMOs and RPGs. EVE gets new equipment releases fairly regularly. One difference between EVE and WoW is that "old" gear in WoW is completely useless. Low- and mid-level areas in WoW aren't worth visiting, and the mobs aren't good for anything. The only portion of WoW that matters is the latest, the greatest, the maximum. But EVE proves that that's not necessary.
EVE is just one example, and I haven't even fully explored the comparison. Mainly though, WoW is entirely focused on gear. That is the be-all and end-all of every WoW expansion, it's why people raid, it's why they grind rep (widgets for their gear), it's why they craft. Here's a thought, genius: Perhaps a skill-based character advancement system might be an alternative to a gear treadmill. Perhaps player skill combined with character attributes could be significantly more important than gear bonuses.
In some old text MUDs, some of which are still trudging along to this day, there's been hardly any new gear released for years at a time. That's because the focus in those games is often on role-playing, player-driven content, world building, skill-based character development and the like.
In Final Fantasy XI, not every expansion introduced massively huge gear upgrades, or even any at all, if I recall correctly. Some, yes, but not "you have to have all-new gear from this expansion or you'll suck at the endgame". Speaking of FFXI, to answer your later question about "providing infinite content", that's not necessary. Providing challenging, difficult content at all levels (not just max-level endgame) that REQUIRES group play and cooperation to work through and takes longer than a few weeks would suffice. Easymode solo questing is bullcrap.
WoW is still king, but do you know why it's the king? Because it caters to the least common denominator. Press lever, get treat, squeak squeak. There are MANY other ways of making a game interesting than gear progression, even if games that do things differently are niche and don't have over ten million mouth-breathers playing them.
Now do you get it?
Currently Playing: EVE Online
Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
Look...it really all boils down to expectations with this game. You want something mind-blowingly revolutionary, steer clear of Rift. Trion doesn't hide the fact it's trying to be a more polished WoW with the not so subtle "We're not in Azeroth anymore" marketing campaign End-game isn't anything new, definately. But it isn't trying to be revolutionary and yet it has been a great success, which just proves there's still a hungry market for WoW clones - as long as they're really polished and adding something mildly unique. I see Rift as that perfect filler MMO while awaiting GW2 and SWOR. I've already got one level 50 character with another on the way and its been a fun, solid game. I love the PvP and the zones are quite beautiful to quest in. The question is still up in the air as to whether it can retain its playerbase when those big MMOs come out.
You answered your own question. Most players rush and skip content. RIFT has a ton of content, its all a matter of how you approach it. My main is level 33 and I havent done a single quest since level 27. Goes to show that there are other opitions of leveling your toon then questing. Tbh thats what I love about Rift. I'll head out to a zone and never how what might take place. The other night I headed out expected to kill mobs to help level my crafting but I ended up taking part in a open world raid and killing a boss. Afew nights ago I started out doing afew quests and ended up running all over the place finishing achievements and looking for artifacts.
The players that play 8 hours a day and rush to end-game seriously miss out on 90% content MMOs offer, RIFT in particular because you can level very fast if you like. But again, theres also the option to take your time enjoy it. The norm of most gamers these days is to get to max level, get the uber gear, and then bitch and whine about lack of content. Hate to brake it to you all but its pixels...lol. A shiney purple chestplate doesnt mean youi have a big meatstick ;p
Its too bad the majority of players like you said rush, which in turn gives RIFT a bad name for lack of content when in fact its insane the amount of content this game offers for a brand new MMO. I can run 2-3 more new characters through the world and still do new things I didnt see on my other characters. As an example I havent done a single dungeon on my main, on a second toon I could just focus on that.
"I play Tera for the gameplay"
Fortionately gamers enjoy different types of games. I agree EvE is unique and enjoyable for many people but for me the combat was boring. On top of that its a sci-fi MMO. Sci-fi just doesnt do it for me
"I play Tera for the gameplay"
Yes, I get it.
You like sandbox games, and you played a themepark game and are now complaining that it isn't a sandbox games and it is obviously Trion's fault, and can't possibly have had anything to do with playing something you didn't want.
I understand. I bought a car, and every day I wish it was a motorcycle - so I blame the manufacturer of my car for not making it a motorcycle, because it couldn't have possibly been my fault for buying something I didn't want.
No, you still don't get it. I've enjoyed theme park-style games before (FFXI, for example), and I explained why. It's not just that they're theme park games or that they aren't sandbox games.
Currently Playing: EVE Online
Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
really what you are saying is I used to enjoy themeparks, now im bored of them. The heading of the OP post is a bit confusing as you already knew what 'end-game' is as you had played wow but ok.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D