Did you even read that sentence? I said, "IF you're buying shit from a cash shop and paying a subscription", not "subscription games don't have cash shops." I don't want to be rude, but that's a pretty simple statement to understand.
I won't play F2P ever again. Item shops have too big impact on a game and ruin my pleasure of playing it.
P2P has cashops too.
Not in all P2P games and besides that is bad I agree, but what you have in this cash shop? Few mounts? Pay for transfering character to other server?
In F2P games you have consumeables, xp boosters, advancement boosters, store only powerful core game items, jewelery , armors , weapons, p2w buffs , etc
+ frequently game is altered and mechanics are taken out from a game and put into item store (Lotro had that) and developers think on how to make players use item shop more and not how to make game more pleasureable to player.
So they f.e. increase grind and then offer items that convinently "speed up" this grind they created in first place lol
You getting ripped off.
See diffrence?
But well It seems I am not following "new trend" that is getting popular amongst many users.
Well I havent cared about it never and not planning to start.
I won't play F2P ever again. Item shops have too big impact on a game and ruin my pleasure of playing it.
P2P has cashops too.
Not in all P2P games and besides that is bad I agree, but what you have in this cash shop? Few mounts? Pay for transfering character to other server?
In F2P games you have consumeables, xp boosters, advancement boosters, store only powerful core game items, jewelery , armors , weapons, p2w buffs , etc
EQ and EQ2 have XP boosters too, 30 minute XP potions.
Maybe if going F2P is the only way for a title to survive perhaps it doesn't deserve to survive.
Maybe the market doesn't need 400+ MMORPG's, maybe it would be better for everyone if we returned to the days where there were only 9 or 10 major titles and everyone played them. (see circa 2003)
I feel the quality of the titles was much better back then anyways.... who needs hundreds of low quality ones?
I've said something similiar before. I know it's not a popular mindset, but this genre really needs to get culled down.
I agree. Making mmorpg games had become popular becasue gaming companies saw WoW and were amazed how big amount of money this game is making. Much more than any SP game before.
So we were flooded with uninnovative games, many unfinished , unpolished or just simply badly designed from a start.
So now we have hundreds of games and dozens of which you can call "big productions" while at same time playerbase is not growing so much at least in NA&EU anymore.
So Imho many games have to die.
Besides when there will be more competition on F2P market with better quality games like former p2p titles , they will also suffer with less and less revenue and will have to expand item shops.
Hopefully natural selection will do it's job.
EDIT: we already see that happening. There is less and less "big pure mmorpg" productions incoming. Genres like MMOFPS are developing and some are even trying to probe if there is a place for mmorts , etc
That's good. Diffrent genres can attract new players , while less companies will make pure mmorpg games , so mmoRPG community will be less divided between too many titles.
Apart of that WoW will slowly die , some even say that it already started hapening and Swtor and GW2 can really speed it up (not to mention other relative big titles coming like AA or TSW) , so maybe we 'll not see in West one dominating game and alot of copy cats but 2-3 maybe 4 big populated game at once with each one having constant 1+ mil subs.
I won't play F2P ever again. Item shops have too big impact on a game and ruin my pleasure of playing it.
As for Lotro - this game is becoming more and more grindy , and item shop influences gameplay more and more.
There are already items in item shop you can hardly get in game (stat tomes) or that are impossible to get in game (powerful tank setting, scrolls of removal). That's why I left Lotro after over a year of playing.
I very much prefer paying 15$/month and dont have to deal with this immersion and gamebreaking nuisance that store are.
Market will just divide. Just look at Asia market that have years longer experience. Some titles (and majority of AAA ones) are P2P and rest is f2p. That is not changing there.
Besides most players that think of playing decent F2P games seriously , still pay VIP subscription(Lotro, DDO, EQ2X) + have item shop and end up spending MORE.
But I guess people hear "free" and their brain shut off. Remember advertisement dont equal truth.
I would say that the market is already heavily divided.. most of the F2P games do seem to have origins in the Asian market.. and its probably why they have such limited success here, the only real exceptions are probably DDO etc, P2P games that shifted to F2P for various reasons - which are probably financial in origin.. the whole cash shop debate will probably go on forever, but... games with cash shops are inevitably regarded as being slightly dodgy - sometimes more than just slightly.. as soon as you can buy game affecting items for real money, then the game inevitably becomes a pay to win.. or pay to compete.. or just pay to do something... Entropia Universe is a perfect example of what happens when the cash shop becomes the central focus of the game.. but your right.. Free is a very misleading term in Free to play.. because its not.. advertising is just a way of making lies a bit more believable.. playing a free to play game can be more expensive than playing a subscription game.. unless you accept very stubstandard gameplay and limitations that inevitably make the games extremely tedious.. because if there is one thing that F2P games are almost universally good at, its in putting obstacles in your path, that require real money to overcome.. and they take many forms
I won't play F2P ever again. Item shops have too big impact on a game and ruin my pleasure of playing it.
P2P has cashops too.
Not in all P2P games and besides that is bad I agree, but what you have in this cash shop? Few mounts? Pay for transfering character to other server?
In F2P games you have consumeables, xp boosters, advancement boosters, store only powerful core game items, jewelery , armors , weapons, p2w buffs , etc
EQ and EQ2 have XP boosters too, 30 minute XP potions.
They also sell armor and weapons and mounts.
Doesn't WoW sell mounts too?
Lol you said it yourself : mount(some p2p titles) vs mount , xp boosters, weapons, armors, jewelery, crafting resources, more powerful consumeables, p2w items, various powerful store-only items, items needed to advance your character, various game mechanics "exported" from game to item shop ,etc + on top of that subscription (yeah "free" to play like hell)
I won't play F2P ever again. Item shops have too big impact on a game and ruin my pleasure of playing it.
P2P has cashops too.
Not in all P2P games and besides that is bad I agree, but what you have in this cash shop? Few mounts? Pay for transfering character to other server?
In F2P games you have consumeables, xp boosters, advancement boosters, store only powerful core game items, jewelery , armors , weapons, p2w buffs , etc
EQ and EQ2 have XP boosters too, 30 minute XP potions.
They also sell armor and weapons and mounts.
Doesn't WoW sell mounts too?
Lol you said it yourself : mount(some p2p titles) vs mount , xp boosters, weapons, armors, jewelery, crafting resources, more powerful consumeables, p2w items, various powerful store-only items, items needed to advance your character, various game mechanics "exported" from game to item shop ,etc + on top of that subscription (yeah "free" to play like hell)
So what are you even discussing?
EQ is a full P2P game, so is EQ2 if you want full access....both have cash shops.
WoW has a form of hidden cash shop too on their site.
Your argument that F2P games have all those things but P2P don't isn't true, P2P games have those items too.
I know im going to get heat for this but this needs to be said.
After seeing how good games like Lotro, DDO, EQ2X, AoC:UC, GA & CO:FFA are doing I think these struggling mmo studios with their half dead games should wake up and convert to f2p.
Vanguard, WAR, Darkfall, MO, Aion (NA/Euro), SWG (it wouldn't need to be shut down if it went f2p) and others, would all see gains in both population and revenue by changing to this model.
So help us, help you!
Give us the game for free initially, and we will in turn pay for crap in your CS and make you a ton of money to keep your game alive.
I know many f2p haters wont want to admit it but these converstions are working and the rest of the genre with the exception of a few mmos (WoW, Rift, SWTOR) need to go this way to survive.
Rofl taking a bad game and making it go free to play does not fix the issues with that game that makes it totally suck. You got to fix the suck factor as well.
The games that you named already had a good following and did not suck to bad that went to free to play and it might have given them life for the next couple of years.
However the games that you did name IE SWG is not cost effective to go free to play, as in it would cost way to much to go free to play to reap the benefits, same for vanguard. To few folks playing to keep the lights on and they all got that kind of player playing it that hates the rmt model. Still there is the suck factor as in the main reason why the game sucks, that has to be fixed as well.
I think sometimes its best to let go, and move on instead of trying to fool yourself that things will get better. Honestly if things had gotten better for swg do you think they would be shutting it down. I think not.
I won't play F2P ever again. Item shops have too big impact on a game and ruin my pleasure of playing it.
P2P has cashops too.
Not in all P2P games and besides that is bad I agree, but what you have in this cash shop? Few mounts? Pay for transfering character to other server?
In F2P games you have consumeables, xp boosters, advancement boosters, store only powerful core game items, jewelery , armors , weapons, p2w buffs , etc
EQ and EQ2 have XP boosters too, 30 minute XP potions.
They also sell armor and weapons and mounts.
Doesn't WoW sell mounts too?
Lol you said it yourself : mount(some p2p titles) vs mount , xp boosters, weapons, armors, jewelery, crafting resources, more powerful consumeables, p2w items, various powerful store-only items, items needed to advance your character, various game mechanics "exported" from game to item shop ,etc + on top of that subscription (yeah "free" to play like hell)
So what are you even discussing?
EQ is a full P2P game, so is EQ2 if you want full access....both have cash shops.
WoW has a form of hidden cash shop too on their site.
Your argument that F2P games have all those things but P2P don't isn't true, P2P games have those items too.
Yes eq2 live has a cash shop but its fluff, and some xp potions. EQ2 extended has all the stuff you can buy from armor to weapons and a huge iwin button. Lol I am glad they keep the two games separate.
EQ is a full P2P game, so is EQ2 if you want full access....both have cash shops.
WoW has a form of hidden cash shop too on their site.
Your argument that F2P games have all those things but P2P don't isn't true, P2P games have those items too.
Tbh i don't know about Everquest I , havent played it never. As for EQ2 well it is F2P isn't it? It is F2P + vip subscriptions game liek Lotro. Just the kind I hate.
So please show me any P2P game that have xp boosters, weapons, armors, jewelery, crafting resources, more powerful consumeables, p2w items, various powerful store-only items, items needed to advance your character, various game mechanics "exported" from game to item shop ,etc , prefereably apart of EQ as I don't know this game.
Maybe if going F2P is the only way for a title to survive perhaps it doesn't deserve to survive.
This. Only crappy and dying P2P games have gone P2W.
imho only three games are worth a subscription WoW, EvE & RIFT. So i guess the entire genre is crappy then because all of those other p2p games are near death. Atleast the F2p ones are seeing increased revenue and have new people joining everyday.
Also none of the games i listed as doing well are P2w stop trolling.
Remember that EVE has effectively had a free-to-play option almost since inception (2004 at least) via CCP legitimising intra-player GTC sales, and then later formalising the process in-game with PLEX. I keep banging on about this because they're such a great way of resolving 3 tensions which pull publishers, the community and the individual in different directions: The publisher wants a gauranteed income from every sub; many players want to be able to buy game currency while others want to play for free; and the community needs a balanced game that encourages player interaction.
To this day I am mystified why other games have not adopted a similar system.
Maybe if going F2P is the only way for a title to survive perhaps it doesn't deserve to survive.
Maybe the market doesn't need 400+ MMORPG's, maybe it would be better for everyone if we returned to the days where there were only 9 or 10 major titles and everyone played them. (see circa 2003)
I feel the quality of the titles was much better back then anyways.... who needs hundreds of low quality ones?
So those games should just close down? that would be better? Paying a subscription fee is expensive most people dont want to inviest in a game like that.
If switching to F2p can increase player activity and revenue to keep a game running longer why not do it?
Games like Lotro, DDO, GA and even AoC are good games there's just way too much competition with games like WoW, Rift and a couple other very, very popular games.
I think this genre is better with them around, even a game like WAR offers something different, sadly with only one active server its a terrible experience.
I dont think just closing down everything would make the genre better, if anything it would make it even mroe limited.
Goddamned right they should. They shouldn't have gotten involved in MMO making in the first place if they aren't willing to bring their A game. These games that are dying were ineptly made and the companies that run them are either incompetent or uninterested in improving them. Instead of wasting time and money on taking the game FTP to extend a bad games pointless life, they should instead use those resources to make the game worth the amount people pay for it, or get the f**k out of the industry and leave these kinds of games to companies that want to make a quality product.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Maybe if going F2P is the only way for a title to survive perhaps it doesn't deserve to survive.
Maybe the market doesn't need 400+ MMORPG's, maybe it would be better for everyone if we returned to the days where there were only 9 or 10 major titles and everyone played them. (see circa 2003)
I feel the quality of the titles was much better back then anyways.... who needs hundreds of low quality ones?
F2P games have a lower entry barrier than P2P games, so its easy to get even your non hardcore gamer friends to play them. And its the market who will decide if they survive or not. Most of those 400+ MMORPGS are near to dead. Only the best of them have a thriving community and good revenues. But because of those 400+ MMORPGs, lots of people that aren't necessarily hardcore gamers get to play MMORPGs, broadening the overall audience of the genre. Eventually most of them will migrate to the best games, or leave if the game becomes too boring. Its all natural selection.
F2P games will have to balance the PvP aspect too in order to compete with P2P. Probably the usual 'item enhancing, with chances to be lost in failure, and 100% success item in the item mall' mechanics that have been core for those games has to be replaced or toned down. But the real problem is... getting good gear is mindlessly boring. So boring that most people prefer to pay. Not even the best P2P MMORPGs are exent of this sin.
Maybe if going F2P is the only way for a title to survive perhaps it doesn't deserve to survive.
Maybe the market doesn't need 400+ MMORPG's, maybe it would be better for everyone if we returned to the days where there were only 9 or 10 major titles and everyone played them. (see circa 2003)
I feel the quality of the titles was much better back then anyways.... who needs hundreds of low quality ones?
Couldn't have said it better myself. Let them just die. When all the games keep dying companies will see they need to make an actual effort to make a good game, and we will stop seeing these flashes in the pan. Make it right the first time, and keep an eye on it.
EQ is a full P2P game, so is EQ2 if you want full access....both have cash shops.
WoW has a form of hidden cash shop too on their site.
Your argument that F2P games have all those things but P2P don't isn't true, P2P games have those items too.
Tbh i don't know about Everquest I , havent played it never. As for EQ2 well it is F2P isn't it? It is F2P + vip subscriptions game liek Lotro. Just the kind I hate.
So please show me any P2P game that have xp boosters, weapons, armors, jewelery, crafting resources, more powerful consumeables, p2w items, various powerful store-only items, items needed to advance your character, various game mechanics "exported" from game to item shop ,etc , prefereably apart of EQ as I don't know this game.
I am pretty sure that EQ2 is P2W. At least I swear there was an article on this site highlighting its change from P2P. It is interesting that people still consider P2W games that offer their " VIP " service a hybrid. It really isn't a hybrid, but just another option to unlock a majority of the game combat. Players still need to purchase " fluff " items if they want to get the complete gaming experience.
Comments
I quoted the wrong person, see above, sorry!
Not in all P2P games and besides that is bad I agree, but what you have in this cash shop? Few mounts? Pay for transfering character to other server?
In F2P games you have consumeables, xp boosters, advancement boosters, store only powerful core game items, jewelery , armors , weapons, p2w buffs , etc
+ frequently game is altered and mechanics are taken out from a game and put into item store (Lotro had that) and developers think on how to make players use item shop more and not how to make game more pleasureable to player.
So they f.e. increase grind and then offer items that convinently "speed up" this grind they created in first place lol
You getting ripped off.
See diffrence?
But well It seems I am not following "new trend" that is getting popular amongst many users.
Well I havent cared about it never and not planning to start.
EQ and EQ2 have XP boosters too, 30 minute XP potions.
They also sell armor and weapons and mounts.
Doesn't WoW sell mounts too?
I agree. Making mmorpg games had become popular becasue gaming companies saw WoW and were amazed how big amount of money this game is making. Much more than any SP game before.
So we were flooded with uninnovative games, many unfinished , unpolished or just simply badly designed from a start.
So now we have hundreds of games and dozens of which you can call "big productions" while at same time playerbase is not growing so much at least in NA&EU anymore.
So Imho many games have to die.
Besides when there will be more competition on F2P market with better quality games like former p2p titles , they will also suffer with less and less revenue and will have to expand item shops.
Hopefully natural selection will do it's job.
EDIT: we already see that happening. There is less and less "big pure mmorpg" productions incoming. Genres like MMOFPS are developing and some are even trying to probe if there is a place for mmorts , etc
That's good. Diffrent genres can attract new players , while less companies will make pure mmorpg games , so mmoRPG community will be less divided between too many titles.
Apart of that WoW will slowly die , some even say that it already started hapening and Swtor and GW2 can really speed it up (not to mention other relative big titles coming like AA or TSW) , so maybe we 'll not see in West one dominating game and alot of copy cats but 2-3 maybe 4 big populated game at once with each one having constant 1+ mil subs.
I would say that the market is already heavily divided.. most of the F2P games do seem to have origins in the Asian market.. and its probably why they have such limited success here, the only real exceptions are probably DDO etc, P2P games that shifted to F2P for various reasons - which are probably financial in origin.. the whole cash shop debate will probably go on forever, but... games with cash shops are inevitably regarded as being slightly dodgy - sometimes more than just slightly.. as soon as you can buy game affecting items for real money, then the game inevitably becomes a pay to win.. or pay to compete.. or just pay to do something... Entropia Universe is a perfect example of what happens when the cash shop becomes the central focus of the game.. but your right.. Free is a very misleading term in Free to play.. because its not.. advertising is just a way of making lies a bit more believable.. playing a free to play game can be more expensive than playing a subscription game.. unless you accept very stubstandard gameplay and limitations that inevitably make the games extremely tedious.. because if there is one thing that F2P games are almost universally good at, its in putting obstacles in your path, that require real money to overcome.. and they take many forms
Lol you said it yourself : mount(some p2p titles) vs mount , xp boosters, weapons, armors, jewelery, crafting resources, more powerful consumeables, p2w items, various powerful store-only items, items needed to advance your character, various game mechanics "exported" from game to item shop ,etc + on top of that subscription (yeah "free" to play like hell)
So what are you even discussing?
EQ is a full P2P game, so is EQ2 if you want full access....both have cash shops.
WoW has a form of hidden cash shop too on their site.
Your argument that F2P games have all those things but P2P don't isn't true, P2P games have those items too.
Rofl taking a bad game and making it go free to play does not fix the issues with that game that makes it totally suck. You got to fix the suck factor as well.
The games that you named already had a good following and did not suck to bad that went to free to play and it might have given them life for the next couple of years.
However the games that you did name IE SWG is not cost effective to go free to play, as in it would cost way to much to go free to play to reap the benefits, same for vanguard. To few folks playing to keep the lights on and they all got that kind of player playing it that hates the rmt model. Still there is the suck factor as in the main reason why the game sucks, that has to be fixed as well.
I think sometimes its best to let go, and move on instead of trying to fool yourself that things will get better. Honestly if things had gotten better for swg do you think they would be shutting it down. I think not.
Yes eq2 live has a cash shop but its fluff, and some xp potions. EQ2 extended has all the stuff you can buy from armor to weapons and a huge iwin button. Lol I am glad they keep the two games separate.
Tbh i don't know about Everquest I , havent played it never. As for EQ2 well it is F2P isn't it? It is F2P + vip subscriptions game liek Lotro. Just the kind I hate.
So please show me any P2P game that have xp boosters, weapons, armors, jewelery, crafting resources, more powerful consumeables, p2w items, various powerful store-only items, items needed to advance your character, various game mechanics "exported" from game to item shop ,etc , prefereably apart of EQ as I don't know this game.
Remember that EVE has effectively had a free-to-play option almost since inception (2004 at least) via CCP legitimising intra-player GTC sales, and then later formalising the process in-game with PLEX. I keep banging on about this because they're such a great way of resolving 3 tensions which pull publishers, the community and the individual in different directions: The publisher wants a gauranteed income from every sub; many players want to be able to buy game currency while others want to play for free; and the community needs a balanced game that encourages player interaction.
To this day I am mystified why other games have not adopted a similar system.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Goddamned right they should. They shouldn't have gotten involved in MMO making in the first place if they aren't willing to bring their A game. These games that are dying were ineptly made and the companies that run them are either incompetent or uninterested in improving them. Instead of wasting time and money on taking the game FTP to extend a bad games pointless life, they should instead use those resources to make the game worth the amount people pay for it, or get the f**k out of the industry and leave these kinds of games to companies that want to make a quality product.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
F2P games have a lower entry barrier than P2P games, so its easy to get even your non hardcore gamer friends to play them. And its the market who will decide if they survive or not. Most of those 400+ MMORPGS are near to dead. Only the best of them have a thriving community and good revenues. But because of those 400+ MMORPGs, lots of people that aren't necessarily hardcore gamers get to play MMORPGs, broadening the overall audience of the genre. Eventually most of them will migrate to the best games, or leave if the game becomes too boring. Its all natural selection.
F2P games will have to balance the PvP aspect too in order to compete with P2P. Probably the usual 'item enhancing, with chances to be lost in failure, and 100% success item in the item mall' mechanics that have been core for those games has to be replaced or toned down. But the real problem is... getting good gear is mindlessly boring. So boring that most people prefer to pay. Not even the best P2P MMORPGs are exent of this sin.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Let them just die. When all the games keep dying companies will see they need to make an actual effort to make a good game, and we will stop seeing these flashes in the pan. Make it right the first time, and keep an eye on it.
"cinnamon buns"
- Pickles
I am pretty sure that EQ2 is P2W. At least I swear there was an article on this site highlighting its change from P2P. It is interesting that people still consider P2W games that offer their " VIP " service a hybrid. It really isn't a hybrid, but just another option to unlock a majority of the game combat. Players still need to purchase " fluff " items if they want to get the complete gaming experience.